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Fede,
I must agree that we are works in progress. I am trying to take what I can from this book and leave the rest for when it's time. There are many great ideas in this book. But one thing I recognize is something I may have read in the bible, not sure, Simon would know. But it basically says that babies need milk, as they aren't ready for meat. When they grow up they are ready for meat. Until then, stay with milk. That's what I'm trying to do here. Though I really think you hit it on the head with the subject/object point the more I think about it. Not that these things literally wouldn't exist, just not in our current stream of consciousness.
BF,
Will crayons work?
I just think we learn what we learn when we can learn what we can learn.... 'When the Pupil is ready, the Teacher appears' is a good definition....
I think sometimes, although this is a vaguer, more obscure opinion, that it's the same with the people we meet and the experiences they bring.... sometimes the lessons are hard to divine and absorb but it's all grist to the mill. It's all designed to take us one step further.
I am no longer in touch with many people I used to know, and no matter what I went through with them, I realise now that they formed a vital part of my progress.... And I'm grateful for each and every single one of them, memorable or otherwise..... 'I, Me, You, We'.
I have no excuse this week. I just have been lounging today. I know Buddhafoot has been waiting with bated breath to post, so I waited. Just teasing.
I really like TNH's writing style. He takes rather complex concepts and makes them so simple. The suggestions in this chapter "Right Thinking" are so simple, yet mind boggling as I've read some of his other writings on mindfulness.
The part that has stuck out to me at a first read are two of his questions.
1. "Are you sure?" Perception is everything. If you don't perceive things rightly, you can really screw your head up. I hate to say I still wonder what others think of me, but learning to let it go. But if I think that someone thinks ill of me, I have a hard time with it. Most of the time it's my thinking is built up from a molehill to a mountain. Asking my self "Am I sure?" about my thinking may save me from a lot of suffering. Also, I'm really not that important for the whole world to think about me all the time. And usually, I really know if someone is ticked off at me.
2. "What are you doing?" I tend to be a typical type A personality, high strung and wanting everything yesterday. It was one the biggest thing that brought me to Buddhism. I started to learn how to meditate because of it. One thing I've started to do is say "Slow down" to myself when I get in my hyper mode. I can't even concentrate on what I'm reallly doing that way. I take a few deep breaths then slow down.
Will write more later this week after I've read it again and see what I get out of it then, but those seem to be enough for now. 2 good questions for mindfulness.
I learned a long time ago to not really worry about what people think about me. I had managed to get through life just fine without them - why should I care what they think about me?
But, I think that was a defense mechanism. Now, I'm trying to do that but in a much more non-meany unspitefully kind of thingy way... deal... thing.
-bf
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I learned a long time ago to not really worry about what people think about me. I had managed to get through life just fine without them - why should I care what they think about me?
But, I think that was a defense mechanism. Now, I'm trying to do that but in a much more non-meany unspitefully kind of thingy way... deal... thing.
-bf
I was feeling a bit down about the turn a personal situation has been taking, and I expressed that I felt bad, sad, guilty about how things were turning out....
"Only if you let it".... was the wise reply.
Just that little sentence.
Something I have actually quietly known for a long time really.... nothing new, not a wonderful revelation, but significant, nevertheless.....said at a moment, and in a way in which I needed to hear it.
"Only if you let it".
Who controls my thought processes? I do.
Who is the author of my words, written or otherwise? me.
Who is it that carries out my actions? It is I......
So it naturally follows then, that whatever I do outwards, is down to me. And whatever I let in, is also down to me......
I feel pissed off/angry/depressed/sad....
I look at the clock.
It's twenty to eleven (for example)......
OK..... I give myself the egotistic privilege of staying pissed off/angry/depressed/sad until eleven o'clock.
Yay me! Wallow! Rant! Rave! Cry! Scream! Throw things around the room (preferably soft, small and inanimate....)!
Then it stops right here.
Enough.
Snap out of it.
Put it out of your mind, have a cup of coffee and read a book, watch a tv programme, listen to some music, go for a walk, sweep, vacuum, dust, tidy out a sock drawer....
Fede,
I'll have to remember that one! I realized a few years back that "I" do it to "me". That has helped for a while. It actually reminded me of something out of the Dhammapadda that I should keep in my wallet when my silly thinking starts.
"Those who entertain such thoughts as 'He abused me, he beat me, he conquered me, he robbed me', will not still their hatred. Those who do not entertain such thoughts as 'He abused me, he beat me, he conquered me, he robbed me', will still their hatred". (Dhammapadda 3,4 Translated by Sangharakshita)
Sorry gang, I've been a slug this week. Doing too much computer crap sans newbuddhist.com. I will get to both chapters this weekend.
-bf
Buddhafoot and all,
Due to the complexity of this chapter and it being on Fede's post this week, we will start Chapter 11 next week 12/19. As I sat here reading it, my head was spinning. Today was a bit more than I expected. Got some very bad news from a dear friend and was trying to help him and let the time get away from me. I need some time to digest it and think about it and there is so much to this chapter. Please forgive me for not saying something earlier. It's a bit heady for me at the moment.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited December 2005
Jerbear, I completely relate... I started chapter 11 and have had to go back a couple of times to "re-group" - and I don't have the distraction you've had!
Keep well, hang in there, and we'll touch base gain on this subject next week.....
I found it odd how this chapter started off. It began with detailing
* How important Right View is
* If we have Right View, we will have Right Thinking
* If we improve our Right Thinking, our Right View will improve.
Seems like blocks building upon one another - which is fine. I can see how honing each skill develops the capacity of our other skills we are working on.
But very quickly, I felt the tone of the chapter changed into "being mindful of the moment".
It does seem odd that we have so many tasks in our daily lives that we race through, seemingly unconcerned about what we're doing in our race to move onto the next thing that we are already thinking about. Not being mindful of what we're doing at the moment. When, truly, what we're thinking about what we need to do next really doesn't amount to anything. Why do we always forge ahead instead of focusing on what we're doing "in that moment"?
I know I might have a hard time with this because it's almost second nature to me to be working on one thing, and trying to work out the details, or fore-plan, what I'm going to have to work on next. Like I'm trying to get my game plan together when I haven't truly executed the game plan I'm currently involved in.
While I don't know if changing the habit of "planning ahead" is necessarily required - it would be beneficial for me to pay attention to the moment. I wonder how much closeness to those that I deal with in my life is lost by not paying attention to the moment because I'm too concerned with what's around the next corner...
I would have to say that I agree with the author's take on the importance of where he placed Right Mindfulness in his layout for discussion. With Right View, Thinking and Mindfulness - it seems that Right Speech, Right Action, Right Effort, Right Concentration and Right Livelihood - would fall into place much easier.
Just by focusing our View, Thinking and Mindfulness - we have taken the steps to hone our mind - which will then help the others to fall into place.
But once, as with this chapter, you start Right Mindfulness - there are so many areas that this plays into. All the effects, internal and external, that we must learn to be mindful of. Whether it's anger, sadness, being acutely aware of all the things around us, our relationships, interactions - there are so many things to be mindful of.
But, I also believe that it must tie into with "a time and place for everything". It just seems like there is so much overlapping. There is being mindful of yourself. Being mindful of others. Being mindful of our thoughts and perceptions that we create within our mind. Being mindful of what is going on around us.
If you are with a loved one who is severly ill - and you are being mindful of paying the attention to them that the moment requires, but they say something (out of their own anger, hurt or frustration) that hurts you...
Now, being mindful would make one think that you are still in the moment with that person, providing them love, support, compassion, whatever it is that is required in "that" moment. But, the words we heard that hurt us or might anger us. Being Mindful, having Right View and Right Thinking might lead us to recognize that the person we are with is having a hard time dealing with what is happening to them at this given moment. That we can recognize our anger at something that was said to us, that we could let it go, that we could understand what has caused this person to say the things they have said.
I can see why, in one area of this chapter, that the author said there are certain teachings (regarding this topic) that nuns and monks memorize - and that these are teachings that we should read once a week.
This chapter had so much information, so many descriptions - that it would benefit me to re-read this once a week just to keep things in focus.
-bf
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited December 2005
BF, The complexity of this chapter (maybe I have been reading it by rote, because we're working our way through to effect a book discussion) hides the simplicity of the message, which is, in my View, to Be.
In reading the book out of Duty, and in an effort to analyse what is being put forward by TNH, it is easy to put to one side that he is still speaking to us, and urging us to examine, understand and absorb the teachings for the Good of our practice. So being Mindful for me, also means "pay attention!"
I like your example of being mindful in the face of hostile distress from a loved one who is ill.... but if you'll forgive me for saying so, that's something which we would bez far more mindful of anyway... The challenge for me, is to still be mindful and compassionate for the disinterested and grumpy young shop assistant, who can't be arsed, or the crass and ignorant pedestrian, who lets the heavy door swing in my face.... yet again, the man at the unemployment office, whose smug look always seems to say, "I'm French and I have a job anyway! You're English, and nobody will EVER employ you...." faced with the everyday 'unconscious' attitudes of others, in everyday unconscious situations is the challenge for me, to stay alert, practise Compassion and Love under the banner of Mindfulness....
Wonderful chapter, and worthy of more than a week's discussion....
Bearing in Mind that contrary to all the 'Peace & Goodwill to all Men' message, Christmas can actually be an emotionally stressful time for so many, Mindfulness for the difficulties others face at this time, is of primary importance....
You make a good point with the other examples. I mean, how many times in our daily lives do we have a loved one who is seriously ill that we are trying to help - compared to daily interactions with strangers that may cut us off on the road, act condescendingly towards us, make rude or aggressive statements to us, etc.
It seems these things happen much more often and provide us with many instances of allowing us to train ourselves in Right Mindfulness. I don't know how many times I still drop the F-bomb on some jer....I mean "person" that cuts me off on the freeway.
As some other wise person once stated something like, to remove anger do not respond to anger with anger.
I will be posting on Chapter 11 when I can. This morning as I was walking to my car, I fell and messed up my right leg. It doesn't appear to be broken, but hurts a great deal. Walking is definitely a challenge. Will be spending some time at the doctor's tomorrow and then will be back and reread the chapter and probably post then. Been mainly sleeping today after taking pain killers. Sorry for this. You all may beat me with a wet noodle.
There is so much in this chapter that it is difficult to pinpoint one thing that sticks out to me. As BF has already pointed out, the chapter comes down to being mindful in the moment. But in thinking about it, that makes sense. We only have this moment in time, so the best time to practice mindfulness.
One thing that I've been thinking about recently is taking my time on the cushion outside of my meditation space and bringing it in other parts of my life. This chapter will always be timely for me since mindfulness is also a training in itself. Being mindful of your breath will bring you to one pointedness in time if you continue to practice. Then it would seem to me that being mindful in other situations would be easier. Being mindful, we could truly interact with the world we are in instead of being swept back and forth. I know that I can have that happen so easily. Tons of beeps and whistles at my job. I wish I could just smile at the ventilator when it alarms. I may have to try that before I answer the alarm. As I mindfully walk towards it that is. Hehehehehe.
Another great point that TNH makes is that our mental formations are part of a storehouse of formations in the mind. Whether we choose to water it and let it grow or put it back into the storehouse is our choice. There are times that anxiety gets the best of me, but I choose to let it run rampant once it starts. I never thought of it being uncomfortable in the current moment. What I had been doing is facing what makes me anxious and doing it, but this will be something to think about as it starts to arise.
Just my thoughts on it. This is a pretty heady chapter and we may come back to it after we've finished the book and reread and rediscuss it. Since it seems that all of us have read the chapter, do we want to go on to "Right Speech" or wait another week? I'm open to suggestions on this. I really didn't think I was going to reread it or post this evening. It's up to you guys. I just started the thread and it belongs to all of us. Let me know.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited December 2005
"In prayer, it is better to have a Heart without words, than Words without a heart." Ghandi.
Right Speech is such an important aspect - to me - of the Eightfold Path, that I'm of the opinion we pick this up in January....
We have a minor Pagan/Christian/Religious/Spiritual/Commercially hyjacked and quasi origin-obscure festival coming up shortly, which I'm certain will be full of diversionary tactics - !!
So why don't we set a date for Sunday the 8th of January? let's all 'read, mark and inwardly digest' the chapter on Right Speech, and begin discussions then?
I didn't want to be the sad sack to point out that commercially based, Scrooge-inspiring, pagan holiday is coming up and then the drunken bash the next weekend. I'm sure BF will need a week to recover from the hangover. I don't know if you drink, Fede. I don't, but that means that I will just have to work anyways. 1/8/06 makes great sense to me, but since my offline sangha is meeting on that so called holiday, I wasn't sure. You're off the hook, BF. You don't have to read anything harder than the Sunday comics for 2 weeks.
Hey all,
Hope the holidays were a blast and you were mindful of all the good things in your life. We will pick back up on Chapter 12 "Right Speech" on 1/9/06! I will be posting early as I will be working Sunday night, but take your time. If you haven't read it and digested it yet, Fede will be mad!
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2006
Well, did you know 'typing', 'letter' and 'speech' all have the same number of letters? coincidence, huh?
There is much i could insert here about what I have come to realise Right Speech' is. But after having read this fine chapter twice, I can add nothing that would be of any use, nor that would embelish TNH's explanation in any beneficial way.
Suffice to say that this week, has been a most instructive one....
What I will contribute however, is that words, like Music, are very capable of moving the emotions. and just as harshly-used words can inflict damage, pain and suffering, likewise are they able to inspire, move and stimulate....
I'm going to give you titles to several of my favourite poems... I hope you enjoy them as much as I have. They are some of my favourites, and still move me to tears....
Fede., I think we must have been brought up with the same poetry and 'parlour song' books!
Have you ever heard Charles Dibdin's song for his brother, Tom Bowling?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2006
No but I found it here and i'd love to hear it sung....
Are you reading 'The Heart...." too? The more I read it, the more it speaks to me...
I think this chapter should be obligatory reading for everyone...!!
Will post later. I've read the chapter but haven't had the time or energy to formulate a decent post. I'm not going to expound on what he said, just how I'm trying to apply it.
Fede, you still haven't answered what V.I.S.A.B.E.A.M. works out to be. I would like to know as it is handy to remember. Love the new avatar.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2006
No problem Jerbear... There's really no hurry... we're always here, and if your back is playing you up, best to take care of yourself and keep yourself well...
Incidentally with regard to your question, I did answer here but I'm happy to let you know again...
RIGHT:
View Intention Speech Action Business (work, Livelihood) Effort Awareness Meditation.
It's just my own little Acronym to help me remember... 'Right Everything' - !!
Get well soon... and take it easy!!
I think this is going to be more than one post for me. As I have mentioned, I am really working on Right Speech. It has been a problem for me since I was a child. Wrong speech has been a defense mechanism, so learning to let this down isn't easy.
So for the first post:
"The classical explanation of Right Speech is (1) Speaking Truthfully (2) Not speaking with a forked tongue (3) Not speaking cruelly (4) Not exaggerating or embellishing" (pp. 84-85).
1. Speaking Truthfully-Speaking truthfully does seem to have many facets. When hearing the truth, it resonates with us and we are glad to hear it. We don't want to be lied to and we shouldn't do it to others. But that is so black and white. You can tell someone the truth and it isn't the time or they may not be ready to hear the truth. In 12 step programs, they talk of the value of being honest, but I have been one that can tell someone the truth and rip them apart at the same time. It seems that we must keep the truth in mind and the listener. In speech classes, they frequently point out that one must keep the audience in mind. Telling 5 year olds to repent and change their ways isn't the time to induct them into a religious idea. But you get the drift. Picking the time, the place, the tone and such is important.
2. Not speaking with forked tongue. How many times have you known someone who says one thing to one person and something completely different a few hours or days later? This doesn't seem to pertain to someone who honestly changes their mind. It is irritating. Sometimes it makes one mad and can ruin relationships. It is really important to stick to the truth whether it hurts or not.
3. Not speaking cruelly. It is amazing to watch daytime tv. Jerry Springer is a perfect example of speaking cruelly. (That some consider it entertainment is stranger) These people do their best to hurt each other. But can't we do it in smaller ways. Gossip is one that comes in mind. It really isn't meant to help or edify the other person, but serves a need to feel superior. Trying to keep in mind your reason for speaking is a major point. As pointed out, speaking the truth can be speaking cruelly. Now, Fede, please don't take this wrong, but I work with a good number of women. I have learned to shut my mouth on a number of topics. Commenting on hair, clothes, children or the like should be done carefully around women. I try to say something positive every time. If I like something I point it out. I try to find something good to say, or ask "What do you think of it?".
4. Not exaggerating or embellishing. This comic(gay) was telling a joke about how gay men tend to exaggerate. The waiter asks "Would you like ground pepper on your salad?" The man responds "I DESPISE GROUND PEPPER. I LOATHE IT WITH EVERY FIBER OF MY BEING. But thanks for asking". Saying "no, thank you" would have sufficed but the joke wouldn't have been funny. But we all know someone who overdramatizes everything (I know me pretty well, thank you) and it can be tiresome.
The past few weeks the first word that comes to mind before I speak is "Think, do you really want to say that?". Saved a few headaches.
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2006
I think enough water has passed under the bridge now to be able to admit that for me, this week has been particularly trying with regard to utilising 'Right Speech'... and I think one aspect of Right Speech is also knowing (as Buddhafoot might put it) when to shut yer yap!
When is it appropriate to comment? When is it better to just be silent? Are you being silent because you don't want to further or prolong the situation, or are you being silent because you believe your silence will speak volumes?
TNH also points out that -
"Deep Listening is at the foundation of Right Speech".
Sometimes, when a person is talking to us nineteen to the dozen, they are not necessarily saying:
"listen to what I'm telling you!" ....They may actually be saying:
"Listen to what I'm NOT telling you - !!"
And occasionally, we're in such a hurry to throw back our own point of View, that were formulating an answer even before they've finished speaking.
Or writing.
In another thread ('Right Speech' started by BF) I posted a comment by Elohim, which I won't reproduce here, because it's tedious... But he outlines the Buddha's instructions on making your actions 'skillful'.
Speaking. Silence. Writing. Listening.
All need to be Skillful.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2006
Are we about to embark on the 'Right Action' Chapter? because I have just read it quickly (will re-read and digest more fully ) and already there are a couple of bits that do not sit entirely well with me.....
Fede,
Yes we are. I have not been posting until Monday night. Not sure why, but it just seems to work out that way for me.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. But also feeling uncomfortable with something doesn't mean it's wrong. It could be my thinking also. So let's talk about this.
On page 96 it is talking about the Fifth Mindfulness training. It states "Aware of the suffering caused by unmindful consumption, I am commiteted to cultivating good health, both physical and mental, for myself, my family and my society by practicing mindful eating, drinking and consuming. I will ingest only items that preserve peace, well being and joy in my body, in my consciousness, and in the collective body and consciousness of my family and societyI am determined not to use alcohol or any other intoxicants or to ingest foods or other items that contain toxins such as certain TV programs, magazines, books, films and conversations. I am aware that to damage my bodyor my consciousness with these poisonsis to betray my ancestors, my parents, my society and future generations."
First of all, I'm not convinced of that simple cause and effect position this takes. Because I watch or read something doesn't mean that it is going to effect other people. I like horror films. The scarier the better. Many times, I catch myself thinking "How silly" and it is enjoyment for me. I also enjoy heavy metal which can deal with some of the darker side of life. I recognize it for what it is. I like a lot of other genres, but these tend to be my favorites. Do I stop enjoying them for my fellow man?
Which brings up my second problem with this. I do think we do need to act with others interest in mind. Be we are not each other saviors. The Buddha pointed out that we were to save ourselves. We can help each other on the road to enlightenment, but we can't do it for each other.
With those contentions aside, I do see that our actions do affect more than ourselves. I can't sit here and say that it doesn't. I'm sure the kindness that I try to express to other individuals helps them out. The times that I am angry can hurt my partner. The times that I am giving can help erase pain and guilt and so on. If the point is simply we are to remember that we don't do something without affecting others is great. I do think it is taken a bit far in this chapter.
Actually you're probably fine watching horror movies and heavy metal. More problematic perhaps would be commercials for things we do not need and that don't work, the vapid babbling of politicians and so called pundits, who pretend to have a solution when they haven't yet understood the problem, programs that give the impression that changing your house or having plastic surgery can make you truly happy and so on.
It's not just what you consume but how you consume it too. Do you just veg out in front of the TV channel surfing, or do you really watch? Is TV or whatever being consumed,as an escape from something that needs your attention right now, to simply fill up the silence, or is it being used with awareness?
Then there's the sheer level of constant chatter and noise that many of surround ourselves with each day, which in itself is toxic. You can have a glass of wine every day and neither harm your mindfulness, nor your health, in fact it would be good for your health. Sit down and watch TV for 4 hours unmindfully though and you will have done yourself far more damage.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2006
Yes, ZenMonk, and many Doctors would agree that a glass of red wine in moderation, is good for the heart... I think it comes back to behaving skillfully...
But TNH does opine that drinking any wine is harmful, due to others watching you do it (your children) and believing that it's ok. He states that we should stop altogether, and realise the errors of our ways.
Whilst you must believe me when I say that I have nothing but the deepest, most profound respect for this renowned person, it is just my opinion that he seems to be suggesting that there is no room for compromise...and this is what I find difficult to accept.
Whilst we are occasionally involuntarily exposed to the very things he states we should abandon, (for example, if we are with a friend and they are watching the type of programme he suggests is 'bad' for us) he does seem to be quite emphatic about our own will and choice, and that which it is right or wrong to take upon ourselves.
Well, I think, given your example about watching a program, that you must use Right Mindfulness.
Being over at a friends house, having them pop on something, and then getting up and saying, "I'm sorry, I refuse to watch this sort of program because it is poisoning." - I think will sound kind of pious. Not to mention that it doesn't seem like you are using Right Mindfulness or compassion. Is making your point about something that you can (mentally) decide, "I don't like this, so I'm not going to partake of it mentally" without insulting your friend?
I believe you can not partake of something on a conscious level. If you are sitting at a table and someone puts something in front of you - and you don't eat it - have you still partaken of it?
If you watch something at a friends house that you don't believe is healthy or wholesome and you recognize this - have you still partaken of it?
I believe there is a way to interact with people without partaking of what they are doing. Just like what Buddha said to the raving, insulting king. He still heard everything that was said - he still saw all the rantings and ravings - but still decided within his mind, that he was not going to partake of it.
I believe a lot of it comes down to a mental decision.
-bf
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I'm totally new on here and would like to know if I am too late to catch up on this thread? If you have already nearly finished this book can you let me know the next one so I can get it? Thanks!
Thanks - Gissaminute - will have to get it off Amazon or eBay .... hang on guys! Can read very fast - it's the understanding bit that takes the time! Will come back when I have a copy.
(thud thud thud thud thud thud ... size 8 feet approaching ) done it - ordered on Amazon, should be with me in February. :rant: instant gratification???
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Yes, ZenMonk, and many Doctors would agree that a glass of red wine in moderation, is good for the heart... I think it comes back to behaving skillfully...
But TNH does opine that drinking any wine is harmful, due to others watching you do it (your children) and believing that it's ok. He states that we should stop altogether, and realise the errors of our ways...Or am I being too harsh on the guy....?
Nope, and most Theravada Buddhists would no doubt agree with TNH. On the other hand, one has to decide what is appropriate for oneself, given enough information and one's own understanding of how one is in relation to alcohol. The precepts after all are not moral commandments but guidelines for training. One has to know when to keep them, when to break them and when breaking the letter of the precepts is actually keeping the spirit of the precepts. And I'll have a G & T please.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2006
Olive? Twist of zest?
Well OK then... I would hate to find myself in disagreement with someone who is without doubt one of the gretest living Buddhists (in my opinion) today...
I have so much respect for the guy, and even though Nick and I intend to return to the UK later this year so that Nick cn complete his studies, I am determined to visit Plum VIllage before I leave... whether Venerable TNH is there or not.....
I should have already known really that it is - as your rightly point out (both BF and ZM...) - that it's a question of personal discernment and evaluation...
Silly me.....
Haven't even got the book yet and still joining in (beginning to get the picture?). Well I am laughing on this one. Can't drink alcohol in any form at all so at least that is ONE tiny thing I don't have to worry about.
Hey this is getting good - avoid alcohol (impossible for me) - check
Avoid sexual exces - (totally celibate anyway) - check
Just the tough mental and moral questions to wrestle with - blast, the most difficult ones are still there!!!!!
Well, this chapter starts off with a bang, doesn't it? TNH could have wrote "Just don't talk like buddhafoot and you'll be okay". Jeez.
The first sentence says enough to work on for a lifetime.
... I am committed to cultivating loving speech and deep listening in order to bring joy and happiness to others and relieve others of their suffering.
One of the first things that it makes me think of is what is happening to me currently. I believe there is an old saying about how it takes years to build up something and just a simple word (or a second) to tear it down. I know this to be true.
It seems like some of these concepts are so simple that the author doesn't really need to take up 3 or 4 or 5 pages going over the same thing. But, with each example provided - you really see the many facets of using Right Speech with Right Mindfulness, Right Intention, Right Intention, etc.
On this site, I've been known to flare up at others - which shows my own lack of skill, purpose and practice. But, honestly, most of my interaction with others here is to hopefully provide a smile on a face.
But, in my own life, there are many times that I need to stop and listen to what the person I'm dealing with is saying. And boy... sometimes it's tough. Sometimes it is really difficult to sit down and listen to what someone else is saying when they don't know what the hell they're talking about, when they constantly point the blame at someone else, never accept responsibility and just lie.
I can't help but think that in some ways TNH is somewhat naive. Maybe he's spent so much time with the adoration of the masses - with people on their best behavior (because it's TNH!! I'm not going to act like an ass!) - that he's forgotten that there are people out there who don't care about your struggle with Right Speech, Right Intention, Right Mindfulness, Right Action - compassion and everything else that goes along with what we, here, are struggling for.
But, maybe, it's these actions, these attempts that will strengthen us on our own journey and possibly bring about a change in others.
I'm such a Doubting Thomas that I really don't think this will be the case for a couple of people that I know - but then... I don't know everything, do I?
-bf
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2006
My beloved Nick and I were discussing the other day, the kind of society which is developping around us... we started of by talking about the death penalty, and moved gradually, in stages, towards how some people will never change, no matter what you might do to throw them the metaphorical helpline that will stimulate them to help themselves.... and he entered into a scenario whereby I would, for example, be faced with some of the members of society that would fall into this category. Kinds of people he has met himself, mixed and iteracted with... and he threw every possible insult, swearword and verbal threat he could, at me, fortissimo, just to try to show me that there are some people out there, that, even faced with Love and Compassion, would rather rot in their own effluence, that accept something better, because they just choose to not see reason....
It shocked me so much, I didn't know what to say....
But it was a bit of a reality check if you like....
And there is the argument that states that perhaps I have led a 'sheltered life'... it's very possible, maybe undeniable, that I really don't have a clue about 'the real world' ... all the more reason then, to not lose hope, but to intensify my personal practise all the more. To work harder. To live the Path with such an intensity, that no matter what manifests before me, I have a firm iron-like grip on that which I know is for me, the only means by which I can transform myself, and then perhaps to touch others by example.
Faced with all the challenges life has to throw at me, like a frenzied pitcher hurling hard-ball after hard-ball relentlessly, I owe it to myself to strengthen my resolve. To not look at The Buddha's Teaching as hard work, or something which will require super-human effort on my part, but conversely, to embrace it with a glad, joyous and open heart, because I know about it. I have found it. And I'm happily batting like a lunatic here!!
Well, as good of a teacher as TNH is: Buddha had ways to deal with this sort of scenario...
On one occasion, the Buddha was invited by the Brahmin Bharadvaja for alms to his house. As invited, the Buddha visited the house of the Brahmin. Instead of entertaining Him, the Brahmin poured forth a torrent of abuse with the filthiest of words. The Buddha politely inquired:
"Do visitors come to your house, good Brahmin?"
"Yes," he replied.
"What do yu do when they come?"
"Oh, we prepare a sumptuous feast."
"What do you if they refuse to receive the meal?"
"Why, we gladly partake of them ourselves."
"Well, good Brahmin, you have invited me for alms and entertained me with abuse which I decline to accept. So now it belongs to you." -- from the Akkosa Sutta
The Buddha did not retaliate but politely gave back what the Brahmin had given Him. Retaliate not, the Buddha advised. "Hatred does not cease through hatred but through love alone they cease."
Buddha did not say, "I'm sorry my friend, I am not up to this at this time - I must go rejuvinate myself" or let the guy walk all over him.
There is a term called "tough love" - I don't think that being Buddhist means you're a whipping boy. And sometime Right Speech, Right Intention, Right Mindfulness means that we sometimes have to hear things that... we don't want to hear, but we need to hear.
Just like telling a child, "No... you can't play with that right now." or "You must go apologize for your behavior." It doesn't make them happy - but it might make them a better person.
This is a question that has been bothering me for a while. By practicing Loving Kindness one puts oneself in the firing line to be "taken for a mug" - well, if that happens, does it matter? Is it an essential part of loss of self? Does the fact that I care about being "taken for a mug" just show that I haven't abandoned attachment?
I agree that there are people who can't be helped or will never learn from any number of examples - but should that discourage us from continuing?
Comments
I just think we learn what we learn when we can learn what we can learn.... 'When the Pupil is ready, the Teacher appears' is a good definition....
I think sometimes, although this is a vaguer, more obscure opinion, that it's the same with the people we meet and the experiences they bring.... sometimes the lessons are hard to divine and absorb but it's all grist to the mill. It's all designed to take us one step further.
I am no longer in touch with many people I used to know, and no matter what I went through with them, I realise now that they formed a vital part of my progress.... And I'm grateful for each and every single one of them, memorable or otherwise..... 'I, Me, You, We'.
I really like TNH's writing style. He takes rather complex concepts and makes them so simple. The suggestions in this chapter "Right Thinking" are so simple, yet mind boggling as I've read some of his other writings on mindfulness.
The part that has stuck out to me at a first read are two of his questions.
1. "Are you sure?" Perception is everything. If you don't perceive things rightly, you can really screw your head up. I hate to say I still wonder what others think of me, but learning to let it go. But if I think that someone thinks ill of me, I have a hard time with it. Most of the time it's my thinking is built up from a molehill to a mountain. Asking my self "Am I sure?" about my thinking may save me from a lot of suffering. Also, I'm really not that important for the whole world to think about me all the time. And usually, I really know if someone is ticked off at me.
2. "What are you doing?" I tend to be a typical type A personality, high strung and wanting everything yesterday. It was one the biggest thing that brought me to Buddhism. I started to learn how to meditate because of it. One thing I've started to do is say "Slow down" to myself when I get in my hyper mode. I can't even concentrate on what I'm reallly doing that way. I take a few deep breaths then slow down.
Will write more later this week after I've read it again and see what I get out of it then, but those seem to be enough for now. 2 good questions for mindfulness.
But, I think that was a defense mechanism. Now, I'm trying to do that but in a much more non-meany unspitefully kind of thingy way... deal... thing.
-bf
Where is your thread on the Noble Eightfold Path. I've been looking for it and can't find it.
BF,
You may be right.
http://www.newbuddhist.com/forum/showthread.php?t=762
I was feeling a bit down about the turn a personal situation has been taking, and I expressed that I felt bad, sad, guilty about how things were turning out....
"Only if you let it".... was the wise reply.
Just that little sentence.
Something I have actually quietly known for a long time really.... nothing new, not a wonderful revelation, but significant, nevertheless.....said at a moment, and in a way in which I needed to hear it.
"Only if you let it".
Who controls my thought processes? I do.
Who is the author of my words, written or otherwise? me.
Who is it that carries out my actions? It is I......
So it naturally follows then, that whatever I do outwards, is down to me. And whatever I let in, is also down to me......
I feel pissed off/angry/depressed/sad....
I look at the clock.
It's twenty to eleven (for example)......
OK..... I give myself the egotistic privilege of staying pissed off/angry/depressed/sad until eleven o'clock.
Yay me! Wallow! Rant! Rave! Cry! Scream! Throw things around the room (preferably soft, small and inanimate....)!
Then it stops right here.
Enough.
Snap out of it.
Put it out of your mind, have a cup of coffee and read a book, watch a tv programme, listen to some music, go for a walk, sweep, vacuum, dust, tidy out a sock drawer....
But don't let it all rule the roost.
"I" do that. Not "it".
-bf
I'll have to remember that one! I realized a few years back that "I" do it to "me". That has helped for a while. It actually reminded me of something out of the Dhammapadda that I should keep in my wallet when my silly thinking starts.
"Those who entertain such thoughts as 'He abused me, he beat me, he conquered me, he robbed me', will not still their hatred. Those who do not entertain such thoughts as 'He abused me, he beat me, he conquered me, he robbed me', will still their hatred". (Dhammapadda 3,4 Translated by Sangharakshita)
Due to the complexity of this chapter and it being on Fede's post this week, we will start Chapter 11 next week 12/19. As I sat here reading it, my head was spinning. Today was a bit more than I expected. Got some very bad news from a dear friend and was trying to help him and let the time get away from me. I need some time to digest it and think about it and there is so much to this chapter. Please forgive me for not saying something earlier. It's a bit heady for me at the moment.
Keep well, hang in there, and we'll touch base gain on this subject next week.....
* How important Right View is
* If we have Right View, we will have Right Thinking
* If we improve our Right Thinking, our Right View will improve.
Seems like blocks building upon one another - which is fine. I can see how honing each skill develops the capacity of our other skills we are working on.
But very quickly, I felt the tone of the chapter changed into "being mindful of the moment".
It does seem odd that we have so many tasks in our daily lives that we race through, seemingly unconcerned about what we're doing in our race to move onto the next thing that we are already thinking about. Not being mindful of what we're doing at the moment. When, truly, what we're thinking about what we need to do next really doesn't amount to anything. Why do we always forge ahead instead of focusing on what we're doing "in that moment"?
I know I might have a hard time with this because it's almost second nature to me to be working on one thing, and trying to work out the details, or fore-plan, what I'm going to have to work on next. Like I'm trying to get my game plan together when I haven't truly executed the game plan I'm currently involved in.
While I don't know if changing the habit of "planning ahead" is necessarily required - it would be beneficial for me to pay attention to the moment. I wonder how much closeness to those that I deal with in my life is lost by not paying attention to the moment because I'm too concerned with what's around the next corner...
-bf
Just by focusing our View, Thinking and Mindfulness - we have taken the steps to hone our mind - which will then help the others to fall into place.
But once, as with this chapter, you start Right Mindfulness - there are so many areas that this plays into. All the effects, internal and external, that we must learn to be mindful of. Whether it's anger, sadness, being acutely aware of all the things around us, our relationships, interactions - there are so many things to be mindful of.
But, I also believe that it must tie into with "a time and place for everything". It just seems like there is so much overlapping. There is being mindful of yourself. Being mindful of others. Being mindful of our thoughts and perceptions that we create within our mind. Being mindful of what is going on around us.
If you are with a loved one who is severly ill - and you are being mindful of paying the attention to them that the moment requires, but they say something (out of their own anger, hurt or frustration) that hurts you...
Now, being mindful would make one think that you are still in the moment with that person, providing them love, support, compassion, whatever it is that is required in "that" moment. But, the words we heard that hurt us or might anger us. Being Mindful, having Right View and Right Thinking might lead us to recognize that the person we are with is having a hard time dealing with what is happening to them at this given moment. That we can recognize our anger at something that was said to us, that we could let it go, that we could understand what has caused this person to say the things they have said.
I can see why, in one area of this chapter, that the author said there are certain teachings (regarding this topic) that nuns and monks memorize - and that these are teachings that we should read once a week.
This chapter had so much information, so many descriptions - that it would benefit me to re-read this once a week just to keep things in focus.
-bf
In reading the book out of Duty, and in an effort to analyse what is being put forward by TNH, it is easy to put to one side that he is still speaking to us, and urging us to examine, understand and absorb the teachings for the Good of our practice. So being Mindful for me, also means "pay attention!"
I like your example of being mindful in the face of hostile distress from a loved one who is ill.... but if you'll forgive me for saying so, that's something which we would bez far more mindful of anyway... The challenge for me, is to still be mindful and compassionate for the disinterested and grumpy young shop assistant, who can't be arsed, or the crass and ignorant pedestrian, who lets the heavy door swing in my face.... yet again, the man at the unemployment office, whose smug look always seems to say, "I'm French and I have a job anyway! You're English, and nobody will EVER employ you...." faced with the everyday 'unconscious' attitudes of others, in everyday unconscious situations is the challenge for me, to stay alert, practise Compassion and Love under the banner of Mindfulness....
Wonderful chapter, and worthy of more than a week's discussion....
Bearing in Mind that contrary to all the 'Peace & Goodwill to all Men' message, Christmas can actually be an emotionally stressful time for so many, Mindfulness for the difficulties others face at this time, is of primary importance....
You make a good point with the other examples. I mean, how many times in our daily lives do we have a loved one who is seriously ill that we are trying to help - compared to daily interactions with strangers that may cut us off on the road, act condescendingly towards us, make rude or aggressive statements to us, etc.
It seems these things happen much more often and provide us with many instances of allowing us to train ourselves in Right Mindfulness. I don't know how many times I still drop the F-bomb on some jer....I mean "person" that cuts me off on the freeway.
As some other wise person once stated something like, to remove anger do not respond to anger with anger.
-bf
One thing that I've been thinking about recently is taking my time on the cushion outside of my meditation space and bringing it in other parts of my life. This chapter will always be timely for me since mindfulness is also a training in itself. Being mindful of your breath will bring you to one pointedness in time if you continue to practice. Then it would seem to me that being mindful in other situations would be easier. Being mindful, we could truly interact with the world we are in instead of being swept back and forth. I know that I can have that happen so easily. Tons of beeps and whistles at my job. I wish I could just smile at the ventilator when it alarms. I may have to try that before I answer the alarm. As I mindfully walk towards it that is. Hehehehehe.
Another great point that TNH makes is that our mental formations are part of a storehouse of formations in the mind. Whether we choose to water it and let it grow or put it back into the storehouse is our choice. There are times that anxiety gets the best of me, but I choose to let it run rampant once it starts. I never thought of it being uncomfortable in the current moment. What I had been doing is facing what makes me anxious and doing it, but this will be something to think about as it starts to arise.
Just my thoughts on it. This is a pretty heady chapter and we may come back to it after we've finished the book and reread and rediscuss it. Since it seems that all of us have read the chapter, do we want to go on to "Right Speech" or wait another week? I'm open to suggestions on this. I really didn't think I was going to reread it or post this evening. It's up to you guys. I just started the thread and it belongs to all of us. Let me know.
Ghandi.
Right Speech is such an important aspect - to me - of the Eightfold Path, that I'm of the opinion we pick this up in January....
We have a minor Pagan/Christian/Religious/Spiritual/Commercially hyjacked and quasi origin-obscure festival coming up shortly, which I'm certain will be full of diversionary tactics - !!
So why don't we set a date for Sunday the 8th of January? let's all 'read, mark and inwardly digest' the chapter on Right Speech, and begin discussions then?
How is everyone with that?
As long as the comics continue to have pretty pictures and single syllable words - I can handle this task.
-bf
Hope the holidays were a blast and you were mindful of all the good things in your life. We will pick back up on Chapter 12 "Right Speech" on 1/9/06! I will be posting early as I will be working Sunday night, but take your time. If you haven't read it and digested it yet, Fede will be mad!
There is much i could insert here about what I have come to realise Right Speech' is. But after having read this fine chapter twice, I can add nothing that would be of any use, nor that would embelish TNH's explanation in any beneficial way.
Suffice to say that this week, has been a most instructive one....
What I will contribute however, is that words, like Music, are very capable of moving the emotions. and just as harshly-used words can inflict damage, pain and suffering, likewise are they able to inspire, move and stimulate....
I'm going to give you titles to several of my favourite poems... I hope you enjoy them as much as I have. They are some of my favourites, and still move me to tears....
Abu Ben Adhem
Invictus
Home thoughts from Abroad
The road not taken
And perhaps a cliché for some, but voted the most favourite of all poems by Britain's listeners of the BBC Radio 4 'Poetry today' programme,
If
Have you ever heard Charles Dibdin's song for his brother, Tom Bowling?
Are you reading 'The Heart...." too? The more I read it, the more it speaks to me...
I think this chapter should be obligatory reading for everyone...!!
Fede, you still haven't answered what V.I.S.A.B.E.A.M. works out to be. I would like to know as it is handy to remember. Love the new avatar.
Incidentally with regard to your question, I did answer here but I'm happy to let you know again...
RIGHT:
View
Intention
Speech
Action
Business (work, Livelihood)
Effort
Awareness
Meditation.
It's just my own little Acronym to help me remember... 'Right Everything' - !!
Get well soon... and take it easy!!
So for the first post:
"The classical explanation of Right Speech is (1) Speaking Truthfully (2) Not speaking with a forked tongue (3) Not speaking cruelly (4) Not exaggerating or embellishing" (pp. 84-85).
1. Speaking Truthfully-Speaking truthfully does seem to have many facets. When hearing the truth, it resonates with us and we are glad to hear it. We don't want to be lied to and we shouldn't do it to others. But that is so black and white. You can tell someone the truth and it isn't the time or they may not be ready to hear the truth. In 12 step programs, they talk of the value of being honest, but I have been one that can tell someone the truth and rip them apart at the same time. It seems that we must keep the truth in mind and the listener. In speech classes, they frequently point out that one must keep the audience in mind. Telling 5 year olds to repent and change their ways isn't the time to induct them into a religious idea. But you get the drift. Picking the time, the place, the tone and such is important.
2. Not speaking with forked tongue. How many times have you known someone who says one thing to one person and something completely different a few hours or days later? This doesn't seem to pertain to someone who honestly changes their mind. It is irritating. Sometimes it makes one mad and can ruin relationships. It is really important to stick to the truth whether it hurts or not.
3. Not speaking cruelly. It is amazing to watch daytime tv. Jerry Springer is a perfect example of speaking cruelly. (That some consider it entertainment is stranger) These people do their best to hurt each other. But can't we do it in smaller ways. Gossip is one that comes in mind. It really isn't meant to help or edify the other person, but serves a need to feel superior. Trying to keep in mind your reason for speaking is a major point. As pointed out, speaking the truth can be speaking cruelly. Now, Fede, please don't take this wrong, but I work with a good number of women. I have learned to shut my mouth on a number of topics. Commenting on hair, clothes, children or the like should be done carefully around women. I try to say something positive every time. If I like something I point it out. I try to find something good to say, or ask "What do you think of it?".
4. Not exaggerating or embellishing. This comic(gay) was telling a joke about how gay men tend to exaggerate. The waiter asks "Would you like ground pepper on your salad?" The man responds "I DESPISE GROUND PEPPER. I LOATHE IT WITH EVERY FIBER OF MY BEING. But thanks for asking". Saying "no, thank you" would have sufficed but the joke wouldn't have been funny. But we all know someone who overdramatizes everything (I know me pretty well, thank you) and it can be tiresome.
The past few weeks the first word that comes to mind before I speak is "Think, do you really want to say that?". Saved a few headaches.
When is it appropriate to comment? When is it better to just be silent? Are you being silent because you don't want to further or prolong the situation, or are you being silent because you believe your silence will speak volumes?
TNH also points out that -
"Deep Listening is at the foundation of Right Speech".
Sometimes, when a person is talking to us nineteen to the dozen, they are not necessarily saying:
"listen to what I'm telling you!" ....They may actually be saying:
"Listen to what I'm NOT telling you - !!"
And occasionally, we're in such a hurry to throw back our own point of View, that were formulating an answer even before they've finished speaking.
Or writing.
In another thread ('Right Speech' started by BF) I posted a comment by Elohim, which I won't reproduce here, because it's tedious... But he outlines the Buddha's instructions on making your actions 'skillful'.
Speaking. Silence. Writing. Listening.
All need to be Skillful.
Yes we are. I have not been posting until Monday night. Not sure why, but it just seems to work out that way for me.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. But also feeling uncomfortable with something doesn't mean it's wrong. It could be my thinking also. So let's talk about this.
On page 96 it is talking about the Fifth Mindfulness training. It states "Aware of the suffering caused by unmindful consumption, I am commiteted to cultivating good health, both physical and mental, for myself, my family and my society by practicing mindful eating, drinking and consuming. I will ingest only items that preserve peace, well being and joy in my body, in my consciousness, and in the collective body and consciousness of my family and societyI am determined not to use alcohol or any other intoxicants or to ingest foods or other items that contain toxins such as certain TV programs, magazines, books, films and conversations. I am aware that to damage my bodyor my consciousness with these poisonsis to betray my ancestors, my parents, my society and future generations."
First of all, I'm not convinced of that simple cause and effect position this takes. Because I watch or read something doesn't mean that it is going to effect other people. I like horror films. The scarier the better. Many times, I catch myself thinking "How silly" and it is enjoyment for me. I also enjoy heavy metal which can deal with some of the darker side of life. I recognize it for what it is. I like a lot of other genres, but these tend to be my favorites. Do I stop enjoying them for my fellow man?
Which brings up my second problem with this. I do think we do need to act with others interest in mind. Be we are not each other saviors. The Buddha pointed out that we were to save ourselves. We can help each other on the road to enlightenment, but we can't do it for each other.
With those contentions aside, I do see that our actions do affect more than ourselves. I can't sit here and say that it doesn't. I'm sure the kindness that I try to express to other individuals helps them out. The times that I am angry can hurt my partner. The times that I am giving can help erase pain and guilt and so on. If the point is simply we are to remember that we don't do something without affecting others is great. I do think it is taken a bit far in this chapter.
It's not just what you consume but how you consume it too. Do you just veg out in front of the TV channel surfing, or do you really watch? Is TV or whatever being consumed,as an escape from something that needs your attention right now, to simply fill up the silence, or is it being used with awareness?
Then there's the sheer level of constant chatter and noise that many of surround ourselves with each day, which in itself is toxic. You can have a glass of wine every day and neither harm your mindfulness, nor your health, in fact it would be good for your health. Sit down and watch TV for 4 hours unmindfully though and you will have done yourself far more damage.
But TNH does opine that drinking any wine is harmful, due to others watching you do it (your children) and believing that it's ok. He states that we should stop altogether, and realise the errors of our ways.
Whilst you must believe me when I say that I have nothing but the deepest, most profound respect for this renowned person, it is just my opinion that he seems to be suggesting that there is no room for compromise...and this is what I find difficult to accept.
Whilst we are occasionally involuntarily exposed to the very things he states we should abandon, (for example, if we are with a friend and they are watching the type of programme he suggests is 'bad' for us) he does seem to be quite emphatic about our own will and choice, and that which it is right or wrong to take upon ourselves.
Or am I being too harsh on the guy....?
Being over at a friends house, having them pop on something, and then getting up and saying, "I'm sorry, I refuse to watch this sort of program because it is poisoning." - I think will sound kind of pious. Not to mention that it doesn't seem like you are using Right Mindfulness or compassion. Is making your point about something that you can (mentally) decide, "I don't like this, so I'm not going to partake of it mentally" without insulting your friend?
I believe you can not partake of something on a conscious level. If you are sitting at a table and someone puts something in front of you - and you don't eat it - have you still partaken of it?
If you watch something at a friends house that you don't believe is healthy or wholesome and you recognize this - have you still partaken of it?
I believe there is a way to interact with people without partaking of what they are doing. Just like what Buddha said to the raving, insulting king. He still heard everything that was said - he still saw all the rantings and ravings - but still decided within his mind, that he was not going to partake of it.
I believe a lot of it comes down to a mental decision.
-bf
Thanks BF.
Good post.
It's never too late!
As slow as we are moving on this (point my finger directly at me) it will NEVER be too late to join
-bf
(small cloud of dust as large lady scampers off)
Many, many thanks.
Nirvana
I didn't say it. I was just repeating
-bf
Nope, and most Theravada Buddhists would no doubt agree with TNH. On the other hand, one has to decide what is appropriate for oneself, given enough information and one's own understanding of how one is in relation to alcohol. The precepts after all are not moral commandments but guidelines for training. One has to know when to keep them, when to break them and when breaking the letter of the precepts is actually keeping the spirit of the precepts. And I'll have a G & T please.
Well OK then... I would hate to find myself in disagreement with someone who is without doubt one of the gretest living Buddhists (in my opinion) today...
I have so much respect for the guy, and even though Nick and I intend to return to the UK later this year so that Nick cn complete his studies, I am determined to visit Plum VIllage before I leave... whether Venerable TNH is there or not.....
I should have already known really that it is - as your rightly point out (both BF and ZM...) - that it's a question of personal discernment and evaluation...
Silly me.....
Hey this is getting good - avoid alcohol (impossible for me) - check
Avoid sexual exces - (totally celibate anyway) - check
Just the tough mental and moral questions to wrestle with - blast, the most difficult ones are still there!!!!!
(Aside to Knit):poke: Hi
The first sentence says enough to work on for a lifetime.
One of the first things that it makes me think of is what is happening to me currently. I believe there is an old saying about how it takes years to build up something and just a simple word (or a second) to tear it down. I know this to be true.
It seems like some of these concepts are so simple that the author doesn't really need to take up 3 or 4 or 5 pages going over the same thing. But, with each example provided - you really see the many facets of using Right Speech with Right Mindfulness, Right Intention, Right Intention, etc.
On this site, I've been known to flare up at others - which shows my own lack of skill, purpose and practice. But, honestly, most of my interaction with others here is to hopefully provide a smile on a face.
But, in my own life, there are many times that I need to stop and listen to what the person I'm dealing with is saying. And boy... sometimes it's tough. Sometimes it is really difficult to sit down and listen to what someone else is saying when they don't know what the hell they're talking about, when they constantly point the blame at someone else, never accept responsibility and just lie.
I can't help but think that in some ways TNH is somewhat naive. Maybe he's spent so much time with the adoration of the masses - with people on their best behavior (because it's TNH!! I'm not going to act like an ass!) - that he's forgotten that there are people out there who don't care about your struggle with Right Speech, Right Intention, Right Mindfulness, Right Action - compassion and everything else that goes along with what we, here, are struggling for.
But, maybe, it's these actions, these attempts that will strengthen us on our own journey and possibly bring about a change in others.
I'm such a Doubting Thomas that I really don't think this will be the case for a couple of people that I know - but then... I don't know everything, do I?
-bf
It shocked me so much, I didn't know what to say....
But it was a bit of a reality check if you like....
And there is the argument that states that perhaps I have led a 'sheltered life'... it's very possible, maybe undeniable, that I really don't have a clue about 'the real world' ... all the more reason then, to not lose hope, but to intensify my personal practise all the more. To work harder. To live the Path with such an intensity, that no matter what manifests before me, I have a firm iron-like grip on that which I know is for me, the only means by which I can transform myself, and then perhaps to touch others by example.
Faced with all the challenges life has to throw at me, like a frenzied pitcher hurling hard-ball after hard-ball relentlessly, I owe it to myself to strengthen my resolve. To not look at The Buddha's Teaching as hard work, or something which will require super-human effort on my part, but conversely, to embrace it with a glad, joyous and open heart, because I know about it. I have found it. And I'm happily batting like a lunatic here!!
Buddha did not say, "I'm sorry my friend, I am not up to this at this time - I must go rejuvinate myself" or let the guy walk all over him.
There is a term called "tough love" - I don't think that being Buddhist means you're a whipping boy. And sometime Right Speech, Right Intention, Right Mindfulness means that we sometimes have to hear things that... we don't want to hear, but we need to hear.
Just like telling a child, "No... you can't play with that right now." or "You must go apologize for your behavior." It doesn't make them happy - but it might make them a better person.
-bf
I agree that there are people who can't be helped or will never learn from any number of examples - but should that discourage us from continuing?