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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2006
No....
There's a difference between Right Intention and being taken for a mug...
To be able to put things into context, you have to look at the whole of the Eightfold Path, and together with the Five precepts, take them as one Guiding principle in applying the practise of Loving Kindness...
At no point does the Buddha instruct or advise that Humility and Loving Kindness should be practised at personal cost to Dignity and Self-esteem.
Unconditional Love and Universal Compassion are not all-encompassing, if we do not include ourselves in these practises. This is why the Eightfold path is such a marvellous all-encompassing set of signposts.
Remember that although one reads and discusses them as separate items, they are in fact inseparable and co-dependent...
And simply because Right View comes first, it isn't of primary importance... they all share equal status....
So it is important that in practising the Eightfold Path, you have as much Respect, Consideration and Reverence for yourself as you manifest for others....
I'll be back when I've made the omlette. .........
Can I live to be 178 please because it is going to take me that long to begin to get my head around some of this. Dilemmas unlimited would about cover it.
Sorry my natural state is flippant - I'm working on it. So ..... going back to your example of Nick hurling abuse at you, you keep your dignity and self respect and still try to love the person doing it? OK - will have to think about this, I'll be back .....
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2006
Absolutely. It's Simple*.
You behold the Sacred Inner Buddha Nature and know that every Being, regardless, has it inherently... There is a practise which tries to help by suggesting that if you can get your head around the concept of re-birth, there is a possibility that this person was once related to you, or had a different relationship than the one you have now....
Also, Each "negative" that comes our way, is our greatest teacher... It's all very well (and essential!) to mix with like-minded people who can help, teach, instruct, guide, learn from us, share and engage.... but it's the big challenges in Life which aid us in putting what we learn into practise....
Even the Bible instructs us to 'Love our Enemy'.... for precisely this reason....
Wow, things got busy here. I was expecting just a post from Fede. I'm pleasantly surprised.
Rev. Genryu,
That's what I thought about the subject. This morning I was trying to do 2 things at once, listen to music and surf the web. I finally turned the music off as I really wasn't listening to it. So often, I like many others, turn on the TV or radio just for noise. As I read your post, I was thinking about driving home from work yesterday morning. I had the CD player going and not hearing one thing that came out of it. It's less than a 15 minute drive to and from work. If I really wanted to hear music, fine. But if not, why waste the energy of the battery. My mind was more involved in driving on ice and slush than anything else.
Another point that comes to my mind is being in the moment. If we are not paying attention to what is going on in the moment, then we miss life itself. I'm really starting to look at life as a training ground and a mystery all in itself.
All,
As for the friend's house with "unwholesome" programs or what they serve, it would seem to me that unless it is something that you find so repugnant that it makes your stomach churn, taking your friend's thoughts and feelings into consideration would be more important. My partner and I have completely different tastes in a number of things. One thing we both have had to learn is when to get involved or when to let the other be. There are times we go on long drives to see his father and I've made CD's for him. I like some of the stuff, some of it I don't. But his happiness is more important than listening to that "cool new" CD that would drive him bananas.
Another thing. Though some of TNH's suggestions may not be plausible in some situations, the man isn't that out of touch with reality. From what I've read, he was a peace activist during the Vietnam War. From what my father told me of Vietnam, it was a literal hell. So, I think he does know about suffering in a way some of us will never know.
Absolutely. It's Simple*.
You behold the Sacred Inner Buddha Nature and know that every Being, regardless, has it inherently... There is a practise which tries to help by suggesting that if you can get your head around the concept of re-birth, there is a possibility that this person was once related to you, or had a different relationship than the one you have now....
Also, Each "negative" that comes our way, is our greatest teacher... It's all very well (and essential!) to mix with like-minded people who can help, teach, instruct, guide, learn from us, share and engage.... but it's the big challenges in Life which aid us in putting what we learn into practise....
Even the Bible instructs us to 'Love our Enemy'.... for precisely this reason....
(* 'Simple' does not mean 'Easy'.....)
How was the omlette....?
The omlette is ... a bit rich to digest at the moment! tee hee
OK - I am almost beginning to wish I had come to this from scratch with no previous spiritual or religious experience. The concept of rebirth exists in paganism too and we are told to find the star material in everyone we meet, so this is not new. So imagining that the person giving me grief was once my child, brother, mother, etc is familiar.
The accepting of bad experience as a teacher in a "concept" way is familiar too - no experience is wasted as long as you learn from it. But bad experiences with other people - the pagan reaction is to retaliate - the dressed in furs and weilding a broadsword mentality is probably going to take some getting rid of.
Phew - this is good practice - I was so used to being a teacher in my old path that it is a salutory experience to be a newbie here. Sometimes the ideas need stirring up and emptying on the ground to be examined to see what are and are not valuable.
I may have sounded somewhat "harsh" in my statement regarding TNH and him possibly being out of touch a bit.
I think, from things I've posted on this thread, that I do believe the man has a great amount of insight and forethought. I think he is a wonderful teacher and caring and compassionate in his sharing of knowledge.
My only point is: when you used to go to church, did you just tear the priest or pastor a new one because you were pissed off about something?
I didn't.
I always put my best face forward - and I believe a number of other people did as well. So after awhile, don't you think that all this priest or pastor sees is a lot of people with smiling faces acting kind and caring? I think it's a misrepresentation of the truth. But, not to the person beholding it.
Plus, I believe some people may treat TNH almost like a saint - so he doesn't see a lot of what is truly around him because people are masking it.
On the other hand, I do believe the man has probably seen more than his share of horrors in the world and that's what prompts him to be so incredibly kind and caring.
BF,
What's going on? We usually are the ones making jokes and agreeing. I honestly didn't think about who wrote it. Maybe I do have TNH on a pedestal. I'll have to knock him off of it quick. I remember him saying we should "Use the bathroom mindfully". I'm sorry, that's my time to play with my Gameboy, not be "mindful". Ahhh, I feel better now.
BF,
One of the reasons that I am no longer a Christian is I had the guts to call ministers on their statements. I'm sure most ministers are quite aware of people putting on their best face on Sunday morning and are jerks by Monday morning. If not, they are more delusional than most.
Well,
I figured since they were calling me on just about everything, why not? I took the verse "Pick up your cross and follow me" very seriously. Now you might understand why I waited 10 years before even beginning to look at anything religious and question everything.
We just finished Chapter 13, "Right Speech". We can stay in this chapter for another week if you like since many of us are seeming to get something out of it, or we can move on to Chapter 14 "Right Diligence". Any input? This is not a dictatorship, it's a community thread. I just started the thread.
This chapter really said a lot to me about some things about our practice that have been happening for me. As one who advocates meditation, it is a practice that does bring me joy. For some, it is a bit of a challenge. They might get into chanting which gives me a headache. Some might love walking meditation.
What is so great in this chapter to me is on pages 100-101
The Fourfold Right Diligence is nourished by joy and interest. If your practice does not bring you joy, you are not practicing correctly. The Buddha asked the monk Sona, "Is it true that before you became a monk you were a musician?" Sona replied that it was so. The Buddha asked, "What happens if the string of your instrument is too loose?"
"When you pluck it, there will be no sound," Sona replied.
"What happens when the string is too taut?"
"It will break."
"The practice of the Way is the same," the Buddha said. "Maintain your health. Be joyful. Do not force yourself to do things you cannot do."
("The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching" by Thich Nhat Hanh)
The way that the Buddha has pointed to for us isn't one that is to be a drudgery. One thing that religion offers is some sincere boredom. Have you ever tried to stay awake during an extra boring sermon? It's difficult to do. Though I have plenty of books around, there are only two grabbing my interest. These are easy to read and I'm tearing through them. Some are chores and I've put them down. One thing that can be said for Buddhism is that it offers a variety of practices that one can find something that they like.
I also really like that TNH points out that it isn't Right Diligence isn't Right if you are miserable doing it. He does mention that you need to cultivate joy and interest in the practices and the Path. Every time one learns something new should bring happiness. There are times I've read something of the Dharma and my heart feels lighter afterwards. This is a good indication to me that I'm on the right path. Some of it points out to me things I need to work on. But I look forward to doing so.
:winkc: :winkc: but my one by His Holiness the Dalai Lama has!
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2006
Ah... Thanks Jerbear....
I had indeed jumped ahead of myself as it were...
Hence my earlier post on being glad about having found the Eightfold Path, as opposed to viewing it as a struggle and hard work...
To rejoice in the Effort, and the lessons we learn every day - be they subtle, or be they really 'in-your-face'....
And how application of the Eightfold path touches every single minute aspect of our lives, from the moment we wake up, to the moment we hit the sack, tired but happy...
Enlightenment takes Effort.
Love it.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Thank you, I am sure I will - keeping up my studies, can't keep borrowing your books - I might want to note in them!
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2006
Yes - not sure I could actually read a book where more is left un-underlined than not....!
Sorry about the marks in the book you have; hopefully though, they'll make sense, and you'll agree....
Did too - will give it back just as soon as I have scribbled down bits of it in my notie book! And I must be growing up a bit, I managed to just use a notie book and not buy a new one and cover it with symbols and pictures!
Another interesting book that illustrates cause and effect in a humorous way is "The World According to Garp" by John Irving. Darn funny book! OOOOOPS, this is a Buddhist web site. But still a good book.
'When I first began looking for ultimate truth,' explained Wim one
day, 'I always thought that when I'd lost a game I'd failed.'
"That's typical of us," said one of his disciples.
'After going to the Himalayas and meeting the great Yogi Mayarishi I
learned that when I won the game I had failed.'
"I see."
'And then after staying with the monk Brother Bobo for a few months I
came to realize that when I lost but still felt good about losing I
had failed.'
"That's very good, Master, very good."
'A few weeks later when I finally managed to locate the great Sufi
Sage Narsufin in Harlem I learned from him that when I won, but felt
guilty I had failed.'
"That's tremendous, Master, tremendous."
'Finally I discovered ultimate truth,'
"What happened?"
'At last I learned how to develop my pawns."
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2006
Checkmate.
Sorry.... (she said, hauling what looked like an ocean Liner's mooring rope over her shoulder)....back 'on topic'.....
...Are we still on Right Diligence....?
It's been a tough old week.....*phew!!*
By Right Diligence, Sir John Hunt's Everest expedition was able to send Edmund Hilary and Tenzing Norgay to the summit. When they got there, Hilary turned to Sherpa Tenzing, asking him to admire the view. "Oh yes," answered the Sherpa. "I've always loved it up here."
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2006
I guess Right Diligence can be described as a bit of an uphill struggle... But I can't remember where I posted this before, so i'm going to put it in again, because it merits repeating...
(If anyone else can remind me where I originally posted this on the forum, I'd be glad to delete to avoid tedious repeat!)
Follow these instructions:
Take a bunch of keys.
Now drop them, or palce them onto a table.
Now try to pick them up.
Don't actually pick them up....
Just 'try' to.....
You can't!
It's ridiculous, isn't it?
Exactly.
you either 'do', or you 'don't'.
There is no 'try'.
So:
Don't 'try' to not be impolite - DON'T be impolite.
Don't 'try' to be kind and gentle with people - BE kind and gentle with people.
And finally, to quote the great Henry Ford:
"Whether you think you can, or whether you think you can't.... You're right."
Fede's comment reminds me of the 12 step programs. I remember hearing so many times "You can't quit drinking drinking". When it hit me what that meant, I'd been sober for a while. Then I caught myself saying it. There is something for just doing something. I will have to keep that in mind with the Noble Eightfold Path.
Jerry,
Many of my family members are friends of Bill's and we're immersed in the philosophy. I can't help thinking that so much of it was borrowed from Buddhism. Sometimes the similarities are just striking. Maybe that's why it's been so successful.
Brigid,
First of all, you are somebody incredibly special. You are Brigid. Don't forget that.
Second, 12 step programs are really Judeo-Christian inspired. One of the reasons that I felt the need to stop telling people they couldn't get sober without them. There are other ways to get sober without a religious slant. The success rate of 12 step programs is only 5%, so it's kind of tough for me to say it's so successful. I'm glad it has worked for me and for the people you know. Go over to "Buddha Babes" for my take on this week's episode of "Desparate Housewives".
Fede,
I just typed out a rather long post on this week's chapter. As I hit "Post Quick Reply", I was already considered not logged in. I will have to retype this in the morning as I don't think I could type it all again at this moment. Any hints on how to be considered signed in while typing out a post. This is not the first time this has happened to me. This may be a problem Brian needs to look into.
I'm going to try and post this way and see if this works better.
This week's chapter takes us on another spoke of the wheel called the Noble Eightfold Path. What effort should we put into our thought life? "Right Concentration" effects more than just time on the cushion but also interrelated.
The very first sentence jumped out at me. "The practice of right concentration (samyak samadhi) is to cultivate a mind that is one pointed" (pg. 105 "The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching" by Thich Nhat Hanh. 1998. Broadway Books. New York,NY) One thing that I have been trying to develop in my meditation practice is one pointedness of mind so that I can take it further. But as this TNH points out so eloquently, it applies to every day life.
Active concentration relates to focusing on the whole moment where as selective concentration only focuses on one thing in the current moment. When we walk into a room, initially we take note of the whole thing. Color, cleanliness, climate, etc. It gives us a sense of where we are. If we are practicing active concentration, we may note that a dog walks through the room but then go back to looking at the whole room again. TNH suggests that we should be doing this on a regular basis everywhere we are.
Selective concentration is focusing on one element within the current moment. I can remember many times being so absorbed (samdhi as it is noted in the book) in a book that my parents would have to yell for me several times and then knock on a door to find me with book in hand. I totally understand why TNH warns us not to want to focus on something in order to avoid reality. It could be so easy to do.
The different levels of meditation kind of bogged me down. Though interesting to know, I'm not there yet. I tend to take a "Can I use it ?" approach.
The very last thing I found quite charming and something to keep in mind. He talks of going to see the Buddha. Of course, people really aren't seeing the Buddha. Even if they have a picture of him they haven't seen him. We are closer to the Buddha when we are practicing than if we were standing next to him mindlessly.
To me that seems to be the point of this. How to be mindful more effectively. Noting the different kinds of concentration helps us to practice them more often. My fellow students and I were taught the very first day of nursing school about active concentration and didn't even know it. We are taught to look at a room, whether it's clean or dissheveled, how does the patient look, etc.. This helps to assess the situation at hand. This seems to be a good tool in every day life to me.
Brigid,
First of all, you are somebody incredibly special. You are Brigid. Don't forget that.
Second, 12 step programs are really Judeo-Christian inspired. One of the reasons that I felt the need to stop telling people they couldn't get sober without them. There are other ways to get sober without a religious slant. The success rate of 12 step programs is only 5%, so it's kind of tough for me to say it's so successful. I'm glad it has worked for me and for the people you know. Go over to "Buddha Babes" for my take on this week's episode of "Desparate Housewives".
Couldn't agree more Jerry - I quit drinking on my own and was up til recently involved with an AA web site aimed at anyone who was quitting or trying to. The people that came in being "trolls" and flaming away at people saying that they could NEVER give up without AA, finding Jesus, loving God etc just made me sick. They undermined some people who were doing fine on their own and eventually a few of us left the Oliver Cromwell fan club to get on with it and formed our own site. Whatever works for you, is fine! Spread the word!:bigclap:
We have come to the end of TNH's discussion of the Noble Eightfold Path title "Right Livelihood". There were a few sentences that jumped out at me so I shall put my two cents worth in on those. "Bringing awareness to every moment, we try to have a vocation that is beneficial to humans, animals, plants, and the earth, or at least minimally harmful. We live in a society in which jobs are sometimes hard to find, but if it happens that our work involves harming life, we should try to find another job. Our vocation can nourish our understanding and compassion, or erode them. We should be awake to the consequences, far and near, of the way we earn our living. ("Th Heart of the Buddha's Teaching" by Thich Nhat Hanh, Broadway Books,1998, New York, NY)
Now, many people work in jobs that our obviously not Right Livelihood. Bartenders, arms dealer, pole dancer, hit man and the like are not jobs that a Buddhist should consider doing. That does leave many professions and vocations for us to do.
As I have posted on here before, my job isn't as cut and dried as it looks. Many would consider being a nurse one of the best jobs for a Buddhist as it gives one a chance to show compassion on a regular basis. But some of the time, it can be quite the ethical crisis for the nurse. If keeping someone alive that you feel it is cruel to do so can lead to serious problems. I am going back to school to progress in my profession as I don't have to make so many ethical decisions. I really like where TNH points out "minimally harmful". This does help me as there are patients that if it weren't for artificial means, would be dead. At times, I think that is the way things work on this blue hunk of rock. When you hit your 80's and 90's and are critically ill, it's time to go.
One thing that medicine has done as a disservice to people, in my opinion, is to make everyone believe that everyone can be "saved". We can do alot. As I've said before, if it weren't for some of those interventions, I would be dead. But many times, it isn't about the patient, it's about the family, the patient's lawyer, or the doctor wanting to do something. Those times are really tough for me. I ALWAYS FOLLOW THE ORDERS WRITTEN BY THE PHYSICIAN! I put that in caps because when I said this before, it wasn't very clear whether I did or not.
One statement that was brought up by a fellow nurse is that ICU nurses will be likened to Nazi death camp soldiers who said "I was just following orders". Many of us bring up the fact to the physicians that the patient's prognosis is poor. We will mention to families they might want to start thinking about what measures they would want. We are usually graphic in the description. There is actually a movement in medicine/nursing to let families witness the "code" situation. It isn't neat and pretty like on TV. It's messy and violent. Some times it doesn't work because of the patient's physical status before the code.
What I have done on a regular basis is to get orders so that the patient can be kept as comfortable as possible within the diagnosis and code status. A few weeks ago, I told a doctor to her face I thought she was one of the cruelest persons alive. Patient had their gut shutting down, abdominal pain, and no orders. The doctor didn't want to give her anything for pain. She wouldn't listen to me or anyone else. Now, some would say I owe her an apology. When you see a little old person suffering and the doctor says "No pain meds or anxiety meds (we use a good deal of both in ICU)", then that isn't being judgemental. It is truly an assessment.
So, how do you practice "Right Livelihood" at work, home, and other places? What do you do about the problems r/t the practice? Feel free to post.
I totally understand why TNH warns us not to want to focus on something in order to avoid reality. It could be so easy to do.
Right Concentration, p 107, Lns 7-9: "When you use concentration to run away from yourself or your situation, it is wrong concentration."
That reminds me of what Zenmonk Genryu said about a "mood setter" which I included in a post not being "Buddhist. I took him as meaning that sort of thing was not "Zenlike," but now I see his point as applying to all of Buddhist meditation, and want to try more of that eyes-open stuff (which is sometimes very hard for me).
Or maybe I'm reading too much into TNH's quote? I mean, is visualizing running away?
I feel like I live in a constant state of eyes-open meditation, Others call it daydreaming.
tee hee
regards,
X
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited February 2006
Right Livelihood is getting more and more difficult in this day and age.. the consumerism and the blasé attitude of a throw-away society means that we are starkly aware, for example, of how vital it is to conserve energy, re-cycle and find new ways of heating our homes and running our cars....in seeking to implement these conscientious habits, we generate a lot more problems than those which existed even just one hundred years ago....
So being mindful of how you earn your money is becoming far more of a challenge than it ever was....
I'm not actually working at the moment, but with good reason. And i'm curently conducting a case against a company who reneged on a contract and has left me in great difficulty. I tell you; Mindfulness and Right Intention are dominant at present....
However.... If I may shift the focus therefore, and discuss it in this manner...
Jerbear, with all the best will in the world, could never fulfil his rôle or function as the blesséd being he is, without the technology available to him, and the drugs at his disposal. But if he were to stop and consider the mistakes made along the way, to bring about the technology he uses, or the means by which the drugs were tested to achieve their efficacy - and all the side-effects they cause - he would go quietly and rapidly insane.....
When we practise Right Livelihood, we cannot always have the priviledge of stopping to consider and evaluate every step of the way, arriving at our stage in the process... Our poor little minds would explode... And don't forget - what we do will have a knock-on effect....
If Jerbear could evaluate absolutely everything he does, with the very best intentions and with the patient's well-being at heart, scrutinising it to the very last detail, he would never move. Because if his actions save the life of a man, who recovers, and subsequently returns home, and carries on beating his wife, and drinking himself senseless.....:banghead:
Impossible. Just completely impossible.
If we take the Buddha's Teachings to heart, all we can do is our very best in any given situation. So Right Livelihood has to be evaluated alongside Intention, View, Action, Speech (Silence/Listening) Awareness, Mindfulness, and of course, Effort.
And as TNH points out - the 'Spokes of the Wheel' are co-dependent. We have to use all of them, all of the time, together, to arrive at our conclusion - or at the very least, to take one further step.....
The danger is that we become so bogged down with all these 'Right Everythings' that we just fail to move.
It brings to mind a saying that I love:
"He who deliberates fully before taking each step, will spend his entire life on one leg."
This is not how it's supposed to be. This is not what the Buddha meant. This is not what he would have wanted.
Which is why, the only successful way to function, is to simply Let Go and to stay in the Present Moment, Wonderful Moment.....
Fede,
Thanks for understanding. I don't think about what had to happen to get to the point where medicine is. I don't have time! LOL! And on my days off, I leave my work there most of the time.
Nirvana,
I think why you're visualizing is the point, not visualizing per se. In my understanding of basic Buddhist meditation, we follow the breath. You can do it eyes half open or closed. The big thing is to do it. The point of keeping the eyes slightly open is that we are trying to awaken. I understand it can be quite challenging but once you get used to it, the distractions are minimal. At first when I was told this, I thought my teacher was insane. But it does work.
Also, if you're visualizing something that you are attached to, then it might not be a good idea to use that. There are many different types of meditation as Elohim pointed out also. Keep trying!
The old bat finally gets to wade in as the thread and I have caught up with each other.
Right Livelihood? Seen from afar my job is doddle of Right Livelihood. I teach mainly business English to adults. Totally Right-On occupation isn't it? Education, sharing my experience and knowledge of lots of things as well as English language, making sure my clients go out of the classroom happy and feeling they have made some progress.
Yes. But - I have no say in which clients I take. The Centre allocates me my total of hours each week and I go and teach whoever they tell me to. So what if I am asked to go and teach in an arms manufacturing plant? I do visits too see? What if the company for which my client works exploits child labour in the third world? What if, as is the case at the moment, I have to work with a pharmaceutical company that practice vivisection?
Then there are the awkward moral dilemmas during the lesson. Someone is convinced that their English is fine, just needs a bit of tidying up. In fact they are crap. It's only because I am a teacher with decades of experience behind me that I can make out half of what they are trying to say. Can I break this to them gently? Is that the best thing to do? Or is the most compassionate thing to give them a wake up call and start them back on basics? They are going to be hurt and offended if I do, but they might take it on board and actually study.
Or the client who stands as much chance of speaking decent English as I do of becoming a boddhisatva. They could come to lessons for the rest of their life and still be incapable of stringing a whole sentence together in an understandable way. I have already persevered with them for a long time and know, through my experience, that it is a hopeless case. Do I try, as gently as possible to push them in another direction? Do I explain that not everyone has a gift for languages and they might be better giving up? What are my employers going to say about me losing them custom? Should I stand by and watch that client wasting their money?
Even in my cushy line of work, which, by the way, I adore, I have to use a lot of judgement to be able to live with myself. And that is without the "at home" right livelihood that Fede mentioned - remembering to do my recycling, saving my stamps for the RNIB, buying products with the least amount of packaging, making the compost.
And that is without going into my other work - healing.
Knit,
What a dilemma! When the person is trying their hardest and not getting it, what do you do? What kinds of things can you offer them besides "Try Spanish" as it's easier. That's not an option as these people are learning it for business. Must be tough.
You guys are off the hook until February 20, 2006. I am working all weekend next weekend and am sure I won't feel like looking at the book. This gives people an extra week to catch up. If you all decide you are caught up enough, that's cool too. I can jump in wherever you all are at. I'm flexible like that.
Knit,
What a dilemma! When the person is trying their hardest and not getting it, what do you do? What kinds of things can you offer them besides "Try Spanish" as it's easier. That's not an option as these people are learning it for business. Must be tough.
Well it is Jerry. And the only solution I found, which was sticking my neck out, but if I don't stand by my beliefs what use is there of having any, was to go and see the person's personnel manager and have a private word with them. I pointed out that the lady in question, while motivated and diligent, just didn't have the capacity. The personnel manager smiled and said "Yes I know, but she does enjoy her English lessons with you so much, we thought we'd just let her continue. It's a sort of therapy."
So I get to continue :banghead: with a clear conscience. But companies like that are rare and a joy to work with.
Comments
There's a difference between Right Intention and being taken for a mug...
To be able to put things into context, you have to look at the whole of the Eightfold Path, and together with the Five precepts, take them as one Guiding principle in applying the practise of Loving Kindness...
At no point does the Buddha instruct or advise that Humility and Loving Kindness should be practised at personal cost to Dignity and Self-esteem.
Unconditional Love and Universal Compassion are not all-encompassing, if we do not include ourselves in these practises. This is why the Eightfold path is such a marvellous all-encompassing set of signposts.
Remember that although one reads and discusses them as separate items, they are in fact inseparable and co-dependent...
And simply because Right View comes first, it isn't of primary importance... they all share equal status....
So it is important that in practising the Eightfold Path, you have as much Respect, Consideration and Reverence for yourself as you manifest for others....
That's my half a dozen eggs, anyway....
Hang on
I'll be back when I've made the omlette. .........
Can I live to be 178 please because it is going to take me that long to begin to get my head around some of this. Dilemmas unlimited would about cover it.
Sorry my natural state is flippant - I'm working on it. So ..... going back to your example of Nick hurling abuse at you, you keep your dignity and self respect and still try to love the person doing it? OK - will have to think about this, I'll be back .....
You behold the Sacred Inner Buddha Nature and know that every Being, regardless, has it inherently... There is a practise which tries to help by suggesting that if you can get your head around the concept of re-birth, there is a possibility that this person was once related to you, or had a different relationship than the one you have now....
Also, Each "negative" that comes our way, is our greatest teacher... It's all very well (and essential!) to mix with like-minded people who can help, teach, instruct, guide, learn from us, share and engage.... but it's the big challenges in Life which aid us in putting what we learn into practise....
Even the Bible instructs us to 'Love our Enemy'.... for precisely this reason....
(* 'Simple' does not mean 'Easy'.....)
How was the omlette....?
Rev. Genryu,
That's what I thought about the subject. This morning I was trying to do 2 things at once, listen to music and surf the web. I finally turned the music off as I really wasn't listening to it. So often, I like many others, turn on the TV or radio just for noise. As I read your post, I was thinking about driving home from work yesterday morning. I had the CD player going and not hearing one thing that came out of it. It's less than a 15 minute drive to and from work. If I really wanted to hear music, fine. But if not, why waste the energy of the battery. My mind was more involved in driving on ice and slush than anything else.
Another point that comes to my mind is being in the moment. If we are not paying attention to what is going on in the moment, then we miss life itself. I'm really starting to look at life as a training ground and a mystery all in itself.
All,
As for the friend's house with "unwholesome" programs or what they serve, it would seem to me that unless it is something that you find so repugnant that it makes your stomach churn, taking your friend's thoughts and feelings into consideration would be more important. My partner and I have completely different tastes in a number of things. One thing we both have had to learn is when to get involved or when to let the other be. There are times we go on long drives to see his father and I've made CD's for him. I like some of the stuff, some of it I don't. But his happiness is more important than listening to that "cool new" CD that would drive him bananas.
Another thing. Though some of TNH's suggestions may not be plausible in some situations, the man isn't that out of touch with reality. From what I've read, he was a peace activist during the Vietnam War. From what my father told me of Vietnam, it was a literal hell. So, I think he does know about suffering in a way some of us will never know.
The omlette is ... a bit rich to digest at the moment! tee hee
OK - I am almost beginning to wish I had come to this from scratch with no previous spiritual or religious experience. The concept of rebirth exists in paganism too and we are told to find the star material in everyone we meet, so this is not new. So imagining that the person giving me grief was once my child, brother, mother, etc is familiar.
The accepting of bad experience as a teacher in a "concept" way is familiar too - no experience is wasted as long as you learn from it. But bad experiences with other people - the pagan reaction is to retaliate - the dressed in furs and weilding a broadsword mentality is probably going to take some getting rid of.
Phew - this is good practice - I was so used to being a teacher in my old path that it is a salutory experience to be a newbie here. Sometimes the ideas need stirring up and emptying on the ground to be examined to see what are and are not valuable.
I may have sounded somewhat "harsh" in my statement regarding TNH and him possibly being out of touch a bit.
I think, from things I've posted on this thread, that I do believe the man has a great amount of insight and forethought. I think he is a wonderful teacher and caring and compassionate in his sharing of knowledge.
My only point is: when you used to go to church, did you just tear the priest or pastor a new one because you were pissed off about something?
I didn't.
I always put my best face forward - and I believe a number of other people did as well. So after awhile, don't you think that all this priest or pastor sees is a lot of people with smiling faces acting kind and caring? I think it's a misrepresentation of the truth. But, not to the person beholding it.
Plus, I believe some people may treat TNH almost like a saint - so he doesn't see a lot of what is truly around him because people are masking it.
On the other hand, I do believe the man has probably seen more than his share of horrors in the world and that's what prompts him to be so incredibly kind and caring.
-bf
What's going on? We usually are the ones making jokes and agreeing. I honestly didn't think about who wrote it. Maybe I do have TNH on a pedestal. I'll have to knock him off of it quick. I remember him saying we should "Use the bathroom mindfully". I'm sorry, that's my time to play with my Gameboy, not be "mindful". Ahhh, I feel better now.
Or maybe I'm just using "I'm Right Speech".
-bf
One of the reasons that I am no longer a Christian is I had the guts to call ministers on their statements. I'm sure most ministers are quite aware of people putting on their best face on Sunday morning and are jerks by Monday morning. If not, they are more delusional than most.
You're a bigger man than I am. I never did. Just put on my plastic face until it was over with.
-bf
I figured since they were calling me on just about everything, why not? I took the verse "Pick up your cross and follow me" very seriously. Now you might understand why I waited 10 years before even beginning to look at anything religious and question everything.
charla
What is so great in this chapter to me is on pages 100-101
The Fourfold Right Diligence is nourished by joy and interest. If your practice does not bring you joy, you are not practicing correctly. The Buddha asked the monk Sona, "Is it true that before you became a monk you were a musician?" Sona replied that it was so. The Buddha asked, "What happens if the string of your instrument is too loose?"
"When you pluck it, there will be no sound," Sona replied.
"What happens when the string is too taut?"
"It will break."
"The practice of the Way is the same," the Buddha said. "Maintain your health. Be joyful. Do not force yourself to do things you cannot do."
("The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching" by Thich Nhat Hanh)
The way that the Buddha has pointed to for us isn't one that is to be a drudgery. One thing that religion offers is some sincere boredom. Have you ever tried to stay awake during an extra boring sermon? It's difficult to do. Though I have plenty of books around, there are only two grabbing my interest. These are easy to read and I'm tearing through them. Some are chores and I've put them down. One thing that can be said for Buddhism is that it offers a variety of practices that one can find something that they like.
I also really like that TNH points out that it isn't Right Diligence isn't Right if you are miserable doing it. He does mention that you need to cultivate joy and interest in the practices and the Path. Every time one learns something new should bring happiness. There are times I've read something of the Dharma and my heart feels lighter afterwards. This is a good indication to me that I'm on the right path. Some of it points out to me things I need to work on. But I look forward to doing so.
:winkc: :winkc: but my one by His Holiness the Dalai Lama has!
I had indeed jumped ahead of myself as it were...
Hence my earlier post on being glad about having found the Eightfold Path, as opposed to viewing it as a struggle and hard work...
To rejoice in the Effort, and the lessons we learn every day - be they subtle, or be they really 'in-your-face'....
And how application of the Eightfold path touches every single minute aspect of our lives, from the moment we wake up, to the moment we hit the sack, tired but happy...
Enlightenment takes Effort.
Love it.
...Which one?
Sorry about the marks in the book you have; hopefully though, they'll make sense, and you'll agree....
Could you send me instructions on how to put links in my posts? I would appreciate it.
You still looking for work? I'm still trying to send positive energy your way, no matter what happens. I'm thinking of you kiddo!
from The Adventures of Wim
By Luke Rhinehart
'When I first began looking for ultimate truth,' explained Wim one
day, 'I always thought that when I'd lost a game I'd failed.'
"That's typical of us," said one of his disciples.
'After going to the Himalayas and meeting the great Yogi Mayarishi I
learned that when I won the game I had failed.'
"I see."
'And then after staying with the monk Brother Bobo for a few months I
came to realize that when I lost but still felt good about losing I
had failed.'
"That's very good, Master, very good."
'A few weeks later when I finally managed to locate the great Sufi
Sage Narsufin in Harlem I learned from him that when I won, but felt
guilty I had failed.'
"That's tremendous, Master, tremendous."
'Finally I discovered ultimate truth,'
"What happened?"
'At last I learned how to develop my pawns."
Sorry.... (she said, hauling what looked like an ocean Liner's mooring rope over her shoulder)....back 'on topic'.....
...Are we still on Right Diligence....?
It's been a tough old week.....*phew!!*
(If anyone else can remind me where I originally posted this on the forum, I'd be glad to delete to avoid tedious repeat!)
Follow these instructions:
Take a bunch of keys.
Now drop them, or palce them onto a table.
Now try to pick them up.
Don't actually pick them up....
Just 'try' to.....
You can't!
It's ridiculous, isn't it?
Exactly.
you either 'do', or you 'don't'.
There is no 'try'.
So:
Don't 'try' to not be impolite - DON'T be impolite.
Don't 'try' to be kind and gentle with people - BE kind and gentle with people.
And finally, to quote the great Henry Ford:
"Whether you think you can, or whether you think you can't.... You're right."
Many of my family members are friends of Bill's and we're immersed in the philosophy. I can't help thinking that so much of it was borrowed from Buddhism. Sometimes the similarities are just striking. Maybe that's why it's been so successful.
First of all, you are somebody incredibly special. You are Brigid. Don't forget that.
Second, 12 step programs are really Judeo-Christian inspired. One of the reasons that I felt the need to stop telling people they couldn't get sober without them. There are other ways to get sober without a religious slant. The success rate of 12 step programs is only 5%, so it's kind of tough for me to say it's so successful. I'm glad it has worked for me and for the people you know. Go over to "Buddha Babes" for my take on this week's episode of "Desparate Housewives".
I just typed out a rather long post on this week's chapter. As I hit "Post Quick Reply", I was already considered not logged in. I will have to retype this in the morning as I don't think I could type it all again at this moment. Any hints on how to be considered signed in while typing out a post. This is not the first time this has happened to me. This may be a problem Brian needs to look into.
This week's chapter takes us on another spoke of the wheel called the Noble Eightfold Path. What effort should we put into our thought life? "Right Concentration" effects more than just time on the cushion but also interrelated.
The very first sentence jumped out at me. "The practice of right concentration (samyak samadhi) is to cultivate a mind that is one pointed" (pg. 105 "The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching" by Thich Nhat Hanh. 1998. Broadway Books. New York,NY) One thing that I have been trying to develop in my meditation practice is one pointedness of mind so that I can take it further. But as this TNH points out so eloquently, it applies to every day life.
Active concentration relates to focusing on the whole moment where as selective concentration only focuses on one thing in the current moment. When we walk into a room, initially we take note of the whole thing. Color, cleanliness, climate, etc. It gives us a sense of where we are. If we are practicing active concentration, we may note that a dog walks through the room but then go back to looking at the whole room again. TNH suggests that we should be doing this on a regular basis everywhere we are.
Selective concentration is focusing on one element within the current moment. I can remember many times being so absorbed (samdhi as it is noted in the book) in a book that my parents would have to yell for me several times and then knock on a door to find me with book in hand. I totally understand why TNH warns us not to want to focus on something in order to avoid reality. It could be so easy to do.
The different levels of meditation kind of bogged me down. Though interesting to know, I'm not there yet. I tend to take a "Can I use it ?" approach.
The very last thing I found quite charming and something to keep in mind. He talks of going to see the Buddha. Of course, people really aren't seeing the Buddha. Even if they have a picture of him they haven't seen him. We are closer to the Buddha when we are practicing than if we were standing next to him mindlessly.
To me that seems to be the point of this. How to be mindful more effectively. Noting the different kinds of concentration helps us to practice them more often. My fellow students and I were taught the very first day of nursing school about active concentration and didn't even know it. We are taught to look at a room, whether it's clean or dissheveled, how does the patient look, etc.. This helps to assess the situation at hand. This seems to be a good tool in every day life to me.
What did you all get out of it?
Couldn't agree more Jerry - I quit drinking on my own and was up til recently involved with an AA web site aimed at anyone who was quitting or trying to. The people that came in being "trolls" and flaming away at people saying that they could NEVER give up without AA, finding Jesus, loving God etc just made me sick. They undermined some people who were doing fine on their own and eventually a few of us left the Oliver Cromwell fan club to get on with it and formed our own site. Whatever works for you, is fine! Spread the word!:bigclap:
Now, many people work in jobs that our obviously not Right Livelihood. Bartenders, arms dealer, pole dancer, hit man and the like are not jobs that a Buddhist should consider doing. That does leave many professions and vocations for us to do.
As I have posted on here before, my job isn't as cut and dried as it looks. Many would consider being a nurse one of the best jobs for a Buddhist as it gives one a chance to show compassion on a regular basis. But some of the time, it can be quite the ethical crisis for the nurse. If keeping someone alive that you feel it is cruel to do so can lead to serious problems. I am going back to school to progress in my profession as I don't have to make so many ethical decisions. I really like where TNH points out "minimally harmful". This does help me as there are patients that if it weren't for artificial means, would be dead. At times, I think that is the way things work on this blue hunk of rock. When you hit your 80's and 90's and are critically ill, it's time to go.
One thing that medicine has done as a disservice to people, in my opinion, is to make everyone believe that everyone can be "saved". We can do alot. As I've said before, if it weren't for some of those interventions, I would be dead. But many times, it isn't about the patient, it's about the family, the patient's lawyer, or the doctor wanting to do something. Those times are really tough for me. I ALWAYS FOLLOW THE ORDERS WRITTEN BY THE PHYSICIAN! I put that in caps because when I said this before, it wasn't very clear whether I did or not.
One statement that was brought up by a fellow nurse is that ICU nurses will be likened to Nazi death camp soldiers who said "I was just following orders". Many of us bring up the fact to the physicians that the patient's prognosis is poor. We will mention to families they might want to start thinking about what measures they would want. We are usually graphic in the description. There is actually a movement in medicine/nursing to let families witness the "code" situation. It isn't neat and pretty like on TV. It's messy and violent. Some times it doesn't work because of the patient's physical status before the code.
What I have done on a regular basis is to get orders so that the patient can be kept as comfortable as possible within the diagnosis and code status. A few weeks ago, I told a doctor to her face I thought she was one of the cruelest persons alive. Patient had their gut shutting down, abdominal pain, and no orders. The doctor didn't want to give her anything for pain. She wouldn't listen to me or anyone else. Now, some would say I owe her an apology. When you see a little old person suffering and the doctor says "No pain meds or anxiety meds (we use a good deal of both in ICU)", then that isn't being judgemental. It is truly an assessment.
So, how do you practice "Right Livelihood" at work, home, and other places? What do you do about the problems r/t the practice? Feel free to post.
That reminds me of what Zenmonk Genryu said about a "mood setter" which I included in a post not being "Buddhist. I took him as meaning that sort of thing was not "Zenlike," but now I see his point as applying to all of Buddhist meditation, and want to try more of that eyes-open stuff (which is sometimes very hard for me).
Or maybe I'm reading too much into TNH's quote? I mean, is visualizing running away?
tee hee
regards,
X
So being mindful of how you earn your money is becoming far more of a challenge than it ever was....
I'm not actually working at the moment, but with good reason. And i'm curently conducting a case against a company who reneged on a contract and has left me in great difficulty. I tell you; Mindfulness and Right Intention are dominant at present....
However.... If I may shift the focus therefore, and discuss it in this manner...
Jerbear, with all the best will in the world, could never fulfil his rôle or function as the blesséd being he is, without the technology available to him, and the drugs at his disposal. But if he were to stop and consider the mistakes made along the way, to bring about the technology he uses, or the means by which the drugs were tested to achieve their efficacy - and all the side-effects they cause - he would go quietly and rapidly insane.....
When we practise Right Livelihood, we cannot always have the priviledge of stopping to consider and evaluate every step of the way, arriving at our stage in the process... Our poor little minds would explode... And don't forget - what we do will have a knock-on effect....
If Jerbear could evaluate absolutely everything he does, with the very best intentions and with the patient's well-being at heart, scrutinising it to the very last detail, he would never move. Because if his actions save the life of a man, who recovers, and subsequently returns home, and carries on beating his wife, and drinking himself senseless.....:banghead:
Impossible. Just completely impossible.
If we take the Buddha's Teachings to heart, all we can do is our very best in any given situation. So Right Livelihood has to be evaluated alongside Intention, View, Action, Speech (Silence/Listening) Awareness, Mindfulness, and of course, Effort.
And as TNH points out - the 'Spokes of the Wheel' are co-dependent. We have to use all of them, all of the time, together, to arrive at our conclusion - or at the very least, to take one further step.....
The danger is that we become so bogged down with all these 'Right Everythings' that we just fail to move.
It brings to mind a saying that I love:
"He who deliberates fully before taking each step, will spend his entire life on one leg."
This is not how it's supposed to be. This is not what the Buddha meant. This is not what he would have wanted.
Which is why, the only successful way to function, is to simply Let Go and to stay in the Present Moment, Wonderful Moment.....
Now who said that, I wonder....?
Thanks for understanding. I don't think about what had to happen to get to the point where medicine is. I don't have time! LOL! And on my days off, I leave my work there most of the time.
Nirvana,
I think why you're visualizing is the point, not visualizing per se. In my understanding of basic Buddhist meditation, we follow the breath. You can do it eyes half open or closed. The big thing is to do it. The point of keeping the eyes slightly open is that we are trying to awaken. I understand it can be quite challenging but once you get used to it, the distractions are minimal. At first when I was told this, I thought my teacher was insane. But it does work.
Also, if you're visualizing something that you are attached to, then it might not be a good idea to use that. There are many different types of meditation as Elohim pointed out also. Keep trying!
Right Livelihood? Seen from afar my job is doddle of Right Livelihood. I teach mainly business English to adults. Totally Right-On occupation isn't it? Education, sharing my experience and knowledge of lots of things as well as English language, making sure my clients go out of the classroom happy and feeling they have made some progress.
Yes. But - I have no say in which clients I take. The Centre allocates me my total of hours each week and I go and teach whoever they tell me to. So what if I am asked to go and teach in an arms manufacturing plant? I do visits too see? What if the company for which my client works exploits child labour in the third world? What if, as is the case at the moment, I have to work with a pharmaceutical company that practice vivisection?
Then there are the awkward moral dilemmas during the lesson. Someone is convinced that their English is fine, just needs a bit of tidying up. In fact they are crap. It's only because I am a teacher with decades of experience behind me that I can make out half of what they are trying to say. Can I break this to them gently? Is that the best thing to do? Or is the most compassionate thing to give them a wake up call and start them back on basics? They are going to be hurt and offended if I do, but they might take it on board and actually study.
Or the client who stands as much chance of speaking decent English as I do of becoming a boddhisatva. They could come to lessons for the rest of their life and still be incapable of stringing a whole sentence together in an understandable way. I have already persevered with them for a long time and know, through my experience, that it is a hopeless case. Do I try, as gently as possible to push them in another direction? Do I explain that not everyone has a gift for languages and they might be better giving up? What are my employers going to say about me losing them custom? Should I stand by and watch that client wasting their money?
Even in my cushy line of work, which, by the way, I adore, I have to use a lot of judgement to be able to live with myself. And that is without the "at home" right livelihood that Fede mentioned - remembering to do my recycling, saving my stamps for the RNIB, buying products with the least amount of packaging, making the compost.
And that is without going into my other work - healing.
What a dilemma! When the person is trying their hardest and not getting it, what do you do? What kinds of things can you offer them besides "Try Spanish" as it's easier. That's not an option as these people are learning it for business. Must be tough.
Bear Hugs,
Jerry
Well it is Jerry. And the only solution I found, which was sticking my neck out, but if I don't stand by my beliefs what use is there of having any, was to go and see the person's personnel manager and have a private word with them. I pointed out that the lady in question, while motivated and diligent, just didn't have the capacity. The personnel manager smiled and said "Yes I know, but she does enjoy her English lessons with you so much, we thought we'd just let her continue. It's a sort of therapy."
So I get to continue :banghead: with a clear conscience. But companies like that are rare and a joy to work with.