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Well Gang,
Sorry, I totally forgot about the thread this week. I got really busy with doctor's appointments and blanked on it. Oh, I got a new IPod which also closes off ones mind to more important things. Will post later.
If anyone knows why we aren't getting email notifications anymore, please let me know. I haven't gotten one in weeks and have to come and check on all the threads I check out. What's going on?
Some of us were experiencing the "no email" thing - and then one day all of us (except for you, I guess) received about 4 million at once.
I'm ready for the next chapter (whatever it is) whenever you are ready!
-bf
Diggin' the Ipod, eh? I was eyeballing them the other day. But I've got an Iriver that has been working too well for me to justify buying something else! I love these things though! I've got about 4,000 mp3's and they work great on a motorcycle ride in warm, sunny weather!
Well I'm still reading this book and loving it. Typical me - I catch up just when everyone else has moved on. Story of my life. I might invest in a Walkman next week!
– still reading the Heart of the Buddha’s Teaching I finally found my role. It used to bug me no end when I was a priestess that I didn’t appear to have any kind of “Swords and Sorcery” role. If I picked up a broadsword I’d as likely break my own leg with it, I’m no great spell caster, I can’t change the weather …… my thing was cup of tea and sympathy, home made healing. Not particularly glamorous is it? Not exactly velvet gown and evening star on the brow stuff eh?
No. Not really. But necessary. And my one gift was getting people to talk, coaxing out their little imps and demons and shining the light of day on them, which is an excellent spell for showing the little buggers up for the shams they are. In sunlight they shrink and when you laugh at them, they get embarrassed and go away. So my best spell was always laughter.
The best accolade I’ve had in ages was this week when I explained that I can’t be around quite so much and people said “You make us laugh”. That meant a lot to me.
And then I discover that there is a word for this – better still, it’s a power, the sixth power, Kshanti “When we are near someone like this, we feel happy also. Even when she enters hell, she will lighten up hell with the sound of her laughter….. Every moment is an opportunity to water the seeds of happiness in yourself .”
So I’ve got it, I’ve finally got it – my role. Well bring on the flames and the pitchforks cos I’m ready – I’ve already giggled my way through more hell than most people get to see in one lifetime, so bring it on – and laugh with me.
– still reading the Heart of the Buddha’s Teaching I finally found my role. It used to bug me no end when I was a priestess that I didn’t appear to have any kind of “Swords and Sorcery” role. If I picked up a broadsword I’d as likely break my own leg with it, I’m no great spell caster, I can’t change the weather …… my thing was cup of tea and sympathy, home made healing. Not particularly glamorous is it? Not exactly velvet gown and evening star on the brow stuff eh?
No. Not really. But necessary. And my one gift was getting people to talk, coaxing out their little imps and demons and shining the light of day on them, which is an excellent spell for showing the little buggers up for the shams they are. In sunlight they shrink and when you laugh at them, they get embarrassed and go away. So my best spell was always laughter.
The best accolade I’ve had in ages was this week when I explained that I can’t be around quite so much and people said “You make us laugh”. That meant a lot to me.
And then I discover that there is a word for this – better still, it’s a power, the sixth power, Kshanti “When we are near someone like this, we feel happy also. Even when she enters hell, she will lighten up hell with the sound of her laughter….. Every moment is an opportunity to water the seeds of happiness in yourself .”
So I’ve got it, I’ve finally got it – my role. Well bring on the flames and the pitchforks cos I’m ready – I’ve already giggled my way through more hell than most people get to see in one lifetime, so bring it on – and laugh with me.
I never got on very well with ceremonial magic. Always seemed too pompous. Me, I'm more your "hedge wizard", so I can quite relate to what you're syaing, Witch Sister.
Hello all,
I'm really sorry about the thread this week. Been experiencing some pain that just won't stop and not been online much at all. I still don't get email notifications about posts. Wrote Brian to find out why I didn't get on the list. HMMM.
If you all can stand to be without me for a week, go ahead and discuss the chapter where we are at. I'm sorry to say I'm just not doing well at the moment. I see the rehab doc on Tuesday and will ask her what she thinks. Oh, gonna start losing the gut I got from laying around too! That will definitely help.
has anyone read... the tibetan book of the dead??
was wondering what that is like?
colleen
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited February 2006
A long time ago....
It was naturally translated into English, and is wonderfully poetic... it's basically the ritual of accompanying a dying/dead person through the Bardo of Death....
Hello all,
I'm really sorry about the thread this week. Been experiencing some pain that just won't stop and not been online much at all. I still don't get email notifications about posts. Wrote Brian to find out why I didn't get on the list. HMMM.
If you all can stand to be without me for a week, go ahead and discuss the chapter where we are at. I'm sorry to say I'm just not doing well at the moment. I see the rehab doc on Tuesday and will ask her what she thinks. Oh, gonna start losing the gut I got from laying around too! That will definitely help.
Sending you my love, Jerry! I'm holding your hand right now...
Xrayman,
He said you would have to have your stomach removed immediately and won't ever be able to eat again. They will be over to put in the feeding tube tomorrow.
Hey Gang,
I would like to make a suggestion for those who are interested in following this thread. If you are reading the book, would you take a chapter/week? This has gotten to be a bit overwhelming for me with all the doctors appointments and therapies. I still want this to go on but could use a hand. Please think about it and let me know. If all goes well, I will be posting about Chapter 17 this weekend.
Chapter 17 "Two Truths" I will read it at work over the weekend. I will not be able to digest it and understand all of it like Federica, but hey I'm trying.
BF,
I'm trying to do this thread, not that I'm trying. Trying to drive others insane is a talent of mine. Speaking of mines............wait, what were we talking about?
This chapter seems to touch upon many of the items discussed in the The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying that will be going on in another thread (ie. death, growing old, etc.). Being that I've been dipping into both of these books at the same time, I'm humored by the similarities being discussed - humored because I think it's a good thing.
I thought I would start this chapter with the various statements that really struck home with me:
When we stop discussing things and begin to realize the teachings in our own life, a moment comes when we realize that our life is the path, and we no longer rely merely on the forms of practice. Our action becomes "non-action" and our practice becomes "non-practice".
All things conditioned things are impermanent.
They are phenomena, subject to birth and death.
When birth and death no longer are,
the complete silencing is joy - Ekottara Agama 18
This verse (gatha) was spoken by the Buddha shortly before his death. These first two lines express relative truth, while the third and fourth lines express absolute truth. "All conditioned things" includes physical, physiological, and psychological phenomena. "Complete silencing" means nirvana, the extinction of all concepts. When the Buddha says, "The completely silencing is joy" he means that thinking, conceptualizing, and speaking have come to an end. This is the Third Noble Truth in absolute tersms.
Regarding the Five Rememberances...
Why would Buddha tell us that we are of the nature to die if there is no birth and no death? Because in the Five Rememberances, the Buddha is using the tools of relative truth. He is well aware that in the terms of absolute truth, there is no birth and no death.
Look into the self and discover that it is made only of non-self elements. A human being is made up of only non-human elements.
Your toothache is impermanent, but your non-toothache is also impermanent.
But when our concepts of suffering and not-suffering cease, we taste absolute joy."
The deeper level of practice is to lead our daily life in a way that we touch both the absolute and relative truth. In the dimention of relative truth, the Buddha passed away many years ago. But, in the realm of absolute truth, we can take his hand and join him for talking meditation every day."
-- The Heart of the Buddha's Teachings: Transforming Suffering into Peace, Joy and Liberation. Thich Nhat Hanh. First Broadway Books trade paperback edition published 1999.
Although some of these quotes are kind of difficult to get your head around - since the manner in which I've posted them leaves out a lot of dialogue and explanation...
I felt this chapter did a great job of making us recognize how we view things.
I know for me, it's very easy to slip into the mindset and preconceptions I nurtured before I started my practice. Quote from this chapter would be great posted on my wall so that I could see them on a daily basis.
BF,
Good, I thought it was the narcotics and I was just stoned. I kept reading it and going "Huh?". The one thing that I did get out of it is to keep trying. We may not get what is being said for quite a long time but if we continue to look one day we shall find it.
One thing though that I'm going to paraphrase is his description of the rose not being a rose. When you do break things down into it's basic elements, the whole does not exist. You could even do that to the individual elements. When I do think about this, it reminds me that things aren't always what you see. We have to look closer. Then you truly see what it is.
One night I was lying in bed and began breaking the body down into it's different parts mentally. By the end, I realized that I truly don't exist. This was pre-Buddhism. I may have to do that again. It was kind of scary to realize that you aren't what you think. But maybe it will be easier this time.
Thanks for taking this week BF. It is appreciated. I will make sure to have something up by Sunday night. Next week is going to be busy so I need to do it early. Heck I might even do it today if the chapter isn't really long.
I'm not even reading this book but I'm really getting what you both wrote.
BF,
The first quote you posted sounds like what's starting to happen to me. At some point I stopped seeing the Path as something I had to follow and it started just being my life in general. There are still so many things that I have to remind myself of constantly. But the way I'm looking at the whole thing is completely different. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that I don't have many distractions and I have a lot of time to think about it. It's just always here now. I don't know if I expressed that properly.
And Jerry,
What you just described could be the first time I've ever had even the smallest understanding of emptiness or no self. I was trying to understand it through the Dalai Lama's example of a chair not having any intrinsic chair-ness value. But I wanted to do it on a molecular level. As in, when you get down to the molecular level, (or is it the atomic level), all there is is just a bunch of molecules floating around.
But the way you described breaking down the elements of the body and finding the non-existence of the whole is so good. I can grasp that. That's the point I'm going to use to start from, I think. Thanks.
Brigid
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited March 2006
have just read the next chapter.
Am saying nothing, as I think I may need to read it twice over to try to absorb it's instruction... phew...it don't get any easier....!
As my topic line says, I'm going to have to stop for a while on this thread. Something that I don't talk about on this board is that I have bouts of major depression. I am currently going through a bout and that is why no posts or erratic posts. I swear I will try to sit down and read the book and it makes no sense at all to me. I don't think it fair of me to hold you all up either. Sorry the neurochemistry is whacked out now, but I think the stress of my physical ailments built up and hit really hard as depression. The good news is that I've already sought out help and getting treatment for it. So, keep me in your thoughts. I may post on other threads. I can seem to post to one a day. So, I hope you all learn lots. Only 11 chapters to go! I'm sure BF will let me know how it's going.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited March 2006
Hey Jerbear....!!
You don't get off THAT lightly...
You ol' scoundrel you.....
it's your BIRTHDAY!!!!
Yay you!!
You know we're all thinking about you, and holding up for you, and we're always here for you....
Try to have a really good one!
:bowdown: :cheer: :woowoo: :birthday: :bigclap: :wavey: :thumbsup:
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited March 2006
I'm really sorry if this post is long... I don't normally do this - please bear with me....I've tried to break it up to make it more - digestible....
OK.... Chapter 17 dealt with the Two Truths:
Relative (or worldly) Truth......... that if we realise that suffering exists, we come to terms with the fact that Joy must exist also.... they are the two sides of the same coin....
And Absolute Truth.... that we realise in fact that all is transitory and impermanent, and that the underlying understanding and appreciation of the Buddha's teachings permits us to transcend Life, and dwell permanently in an inner state of Joy....
I believe (and hope) this is the bare stripped-grains crux of it....
But oh boy!! Chapter 18 takes us a stage further....
let me just get all of this down....
We have the Three Dharma Seals:
Impermanence (anitya) Non-Self (atman) and "The extinction of all Notions" (Nirvana).
Unless we grasp and learn and accept these three as an absolutely vital and essential part of the Buddha's teachings, our learning is incomplete, and our progress is halted.
I guess.
Impermanence is something we live with every second of our lives, because as each second passes, our Mortality is more defined and highlighted... we move closer and closer to our own demise....
Non-Self is a little more difficult to grasp, but for me perhaps, specifically because I have not digested it as much as I could have.... but I agree with it completely, inspite of my scant study... I am as connected to the fallen leaf of the tree, as was the twig from whence it came. The leaf and I are one: we are inseparable... I am it, and it is you, and you are they, and so on ad infinitum..... The tortured monk in Tibet is as much a part of us as is his torturer.... That hurts.....
TNH outlined the 8 concepts:
Birth, Death, permanence, Dissolution, Coming, Going, One, Many.
and how realisation of Non-Self & Nirvana meant accepting the Eight 'No's' of the Middle Way:
No Birth, No Death, No permanence, No Dissolution, No Coming, No Going, No One, No Many..... so it follows that we reach -
Nirvana - the complete and total release of every single thing that binds us, or to which we are bound (by our Ignorance, our Clinging, our Grasping, all of our Suffering.....)
So far, I got it all....
Then, our good friend TNH just had to step it up a notch, dinn' he...?
he brought in to play The 2 Relevances:
1) Relevance to the Essence
2) Relevance to the Circumstances
Rleveance to the Essence is Relevance to the 3 Dharma Seals: when we talk to others on the Teachings of the Buddha, we should always refer to these three essentials
Relevance to the circumstances:
Make sure that you speak of the Buddha's teachings in a way that is relevant to the moment or circumstance...
("Does my ass look big in this?" is not the time to say, "well, it's impermanent - it will either get bigger or smaller, and your ass is my ass, and anyway, it is of no consequence, because the notion of a big ass is not a notion to hold on to....")
He then gave the 4 Standards of Truth:
1) Relative (Worldly) Truth - See Chapter 17
2) The person: Suiting the Truth to the person, their circumstance and their situation
3) Healing: Our words should be transmitted in such a way as to seek to heal that which ails them (mentally or physically)
4) The Absolute Truth - (see chapter 17) The Truth on non-Self and the ending of Notions.....
Then he finally touched upon the 4 Reliances:
1) To rely upon the teaching,, not the person (Finger pointing at the Moon, type of thing....)
2) To rely on the discourses where the teachings are taught in terms of Absolute Truth, as opposed to relative Truth....
Fortunately (for me!) TNH had a bit of a problem with this one too.... how can we know, in our primary stages, how to distinguish one from the other, if we have not sampled both...? We have to be able to progress from those of a relative Truth, to those of an Absolute Truth. only by knowing the first, can we then move on to the second.
now i understand why some of the Sutra discussions on this board leave me high and dry.
OK. It's cool....
3) Rely on the Meaning, not on the Words.... learn to appreciate the full intention of the teaching. When in doubt, ask; examine, dissect, purge, strip and really search, I guess......
4) Rely on Insight - look really deeply - don't just rely on differentiation, or discrimination, but I guess, the Kalama Sutra.... comes in handy, everywhere!!
This is what I managed to glean from chapter 18... I've broken it down into it's basic components and put them forward.... It helped me. Maybe you could all add something....
("Does my ass look big in this?" is not the time to say, "well, it's impermanent - it will either get bigger or smaller, and your ass is my ass, and anyway, it is of no consequence, because the notion of a big ass is not a notion to hold on to....")
This is priceless, Fede!!! LMAO!
I have nothing to add because I'm not reading the book. So I guess I'm just interrupting.
But I do want to say that the way you put all this subtle stuff was very clear, Fede. You're really good at this. And thank you for doing so. I don't have the book so I've been acquainting myself with it vicariously through you guys. I appreciate the work that went into this, Fede.
I'll go now.
Love,
Brigid
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited April 2006
OK. I'm stuck...
I made it through, by the skin of my teeth, to just about wrapping my poor little empty head around stuff so far, but "The Three Doors of Liberation" are difficult fo me to digest..
Specifically the first...Sunyatta, or Emptiness...
Now, I've tried to use a different terminology, like referring to it as being a fillable void, or trying to "see" the emptiness of the flower, how we're all interconnected... the other two Doors, I'm a bit better at 'grasping' (in the 'getting the hang of' sense, not 'Clinging and Attachment' - as if I need to make THAT clear - ! :rolleyesc )
Signlessness:.....avoid labelling or categorising... 'Things are not what they seem - nor are they otherwise'...
Aimlessness... Go nowhere, do nothing, don't strive to be 'somewhere else' when all that is perfect and as it should be, is Here and Now....
I'm OK with these two...I got those.... But the first one...Dang!!
Could somebody explain it in simple, non-pali-worded, legible, plain-English terminology for me..... Please.....?
The natural state of emptiness is endowed with “three doors to liberation”: (1) its essence or nature is empty; (2) its cause is free from mental elaborations or conventional characteristics; (3) and the fruit is not “something” to be obtained but rather a state of wisdom to be actualized. We should rest, uncontrived and relaxed within that state.
The thing about sunyata is that it can't be described, like the Tao, which makes it a bit of a bugger to discuss. This has, however, never stopped the theologians!
For me, the Void or the Abyss or Sunyata or whatever term we fail to describe it by is Pure Potential before any realisation ("making 'real'") or incarnation of that potential; it is the state of pregnancy that brings forth.
I do hope that this simple explanation will now open the doors of your eyes so that they can hear and of your ears so that they can smell, etc., the non-taste of the silence before the Word was ever spoken.
I also find it difficult at times to connect "no-self" and "inter-being" together.
"Being" would indicate that there is something... something that is connected with everything else. The author makes a great point of constantly discussing how "we cannot be by ourselves alone".
I have to keep to keep re-reading "We are empty of a separate, independant self. We cannot be by ourselves alone. We can only inter-be with everything else in the cosmos."
But I sometimes feel the hardder it's explained, the less I find that I'm following along.
I also find it difficult at times to connect "no-self" and "inter-being" together.
"Being" would indicate that there is something... something that is connected with everything else. The author makes a great point of constantly discussing how "we cannot be by ourselves alone".
I have to keep to keep re-reading "We are empty of a separate, independant self. We cannot be by ourselves alone. We can only inter-be with everything else in the cosmos."
But I sometimes feel the hardder it's explained, the less I find that I'm following along.
-bf
I've also heard it explained as not-self instead of no-self. To me this makes more sense, as I can somewhat "grasp" it. :rolleyesc
Usually we take the "self" to be an autonomous entity, apart from everthing else, while in fact it is conditioned by and dependent on everything else.
So, it seems to be just an idea looking at other ideas.
Disclaimer: I'm pretty new at this, so I could be pretty wrong.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited April 2006
Isn't 'Emptiness' different from 'Not-Self?'
Not self, (and I am being soooo simplistic here, we're back to 'Janet and John', levels!) as I have understood it, is accepting that we are merely a bundle of aggregates... Skandas... and broken down into bare component parts (and we keep breaking down, and breaking down) we come to the understanding that self is valid, but Not-Self is the Truth...
Sunyatta then comes along, and knocks me for six...
"Form is emptiness, emptiness is form.... "
So are they one and the same? Are they different? are they different and the same? is it our friend Semantics and mis-translation getting in the way again?
TNH has managed to put it down on paper, so there MUST be a way of 'explaining' it - but maybe I just don't have the mind-set to understand it on the level he's explaining it.... And as, apparently, if I don't progress and absorb this, I can never know, or reach my destination, (I feel like some forlorn kid sitting on a battered suitcase in the middle of Grand Central Station!) what then do I do...?
I need to reiterate - this needs to be expounded to me in plain English -
Let me come back to that in 30 years, maybe I'll have an answer
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited April 2006
At this rate, I'll still be here....on my suitcase..... :crazy:
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited April 2006
By george....I've got it....
OK... I'm going to put this as simplistically as I can...Some of the finer points might need adjustment and review, but bear with me....
We are Self, but Not-Self....That is to say, we live, we breathe, we exist, we function, we feel, we ARE - But we 'Are' not. The aggregates, the composite of Skhandas are separable, and able to be infinitessimally broken down, and dissolved into what it is that ultimately moves from one existence to another....
With me so far....?
A flower, a tree, a table, a cloud, a bird, a leaf, a blade of grass a mountain - these too, are all composites and all divisible in the same way...Broken down right down to a breath of air, a ray of sunshine a drop of water....Just like us....
So we ARE the flower, and the flower is us... We can equate and be one with the tree, because all that the tree is, is in us.... Wea ARE the Bird, we are related to, connected to and part and parcel of everything else, because everything else, like us, is nothing....No-Thing....
And we travel through time, except that Time also, does not exist, either.... We measure time for our own vital convenience - Birthdays, appointments, air-travel timetables, days, weeks, months and years - but 'Time' itself does not exist.... The Past is gone, untouchable, unreal...the Future is uncertain, unpredictable and unreal - We have but the instant we are in - all the rest, is not time.... it doesn't exist. Only the 'Now' exists - The 'Not-Time' where our Not-Self lives......
The thing about sunyata is that it can't be described, like the Tao, which makes it a bit of a bugger to discuss. This has, however, never stopped the theologians!
For me, the Void or the Abyss or Sunyata or whatever term we fail to describe it by is Pure Potential before any realisation ("making 'real'") or incarnation of that potential; it is the state of pregnancy that brings forth.
I do hope that this simple explanation will now open the doors of your eyes so that they can hear and of your ears so that they can smell, etc., the non-taste of the silence before the Word was ever spoken.
Dear STP,:rolleyesc
I use this argument all the time! when I try to make out that I somehow understand Quantum Mechanics-I tell people That it can't be described-gets me off the hook all the time. :winkc:
I also like to put people in a situation by saying, "Only an idiot would disagree with me on this..", Works all the time!
William Carlos Williams says, somewhere, that there are some bits of life that can only be spoken of in poetry. Sunyata is one such, which is why the most wonderful and enlightening writings about 'it' are poems. Unfortunately, most of them are not written in English!
English, as a language, does not adjust itself well to deep metaphysics. It is a language for traders and soldiers. Latin suffered from much the same limitations until the Church got hold of it and invented necessary terminology.
In the modern European languages, Spanish (particularly South American) and German have given us extraordinary poets of the Abyss. Look at Rilke.
It is strange that the notion of the Abyss-From-Which-All-Things-Arise has dropped out of our sense of the numenous because we can finds it in the 'source' religions of Sumer and Egypt, as well as in the myths of Asgard. Mainstream religions arising from the Tanakh appear to shy away from the "empty and void" of the first chapter of Genesis.
BF,
You say back-slider like it's a bad thing! I used to call myself a recovering fundamentalist, but then realized I didn't want any fundy label at all! what am I today? Not sure since "I" don't exist.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited May 2006
OK....Good.....
Just wondering if my post #287 has actually made sense to anyone.....? :crazy:
Hello All! Would we all like to start back up? Let me know. Will set a date when the votes are in. Thanks for letting me get some other things in to control. Or is it just the illusion of control? Or is it just the illusion of problems? HMMMMMM! Any way, let me know gang!
So are they one and the same? Are they different? are they different and the same? is it our friend Semantics and mis-translation getting in the way again?
To have a solid "yes" would be to close myself off from greater possibilities and prove that my mind is closed. Perhaps it's the images established in our mind that is getting in the way. Can one say that there is no self. To find out one has to be open and honest to see how this self has been formed to discover what truth is in it. It takes inquiry without judgement a capacity to simply be with what is. As an awareness impressions are continuosly recieved through the senses. Through continous contact with those impressions an image is established. "This is this" and "that is that", thereby creating a seperation and conflict ensues. The thing is, my awareness is limited in the impressions it recieves, so the conclusions that I make are incomplete. The image of a self (or other for that matter) is an illusion of solidity that has been formed by the mind. So, if the self is an incomplete formation generated as a function of the brain to establish a sense of security it is empty, not self.
Like form is emptyness, and emptyness is form. Self and not-self are both in the oneness of being.
A practitioner of Zen came up with a theory and practice, "The Headless Way"
I got two glimpses at the beginning of the experiments but I lost it when I went along because my mind intruded. I've saved the site and I'm going to go back often and try them. I had the coolest experience, I felt very aware and part of everything, the birds outside my window, the desk my hand was on with our molecules intermingling, and the wind... I can't describe it. It was cool.
Thanks. I feel a different perspective, a much bigger, wider one but also a deeper, molecular one at the same time, not that they're different. I can't use words for this. It's wrecking it. I'm going to shut up now.
Brigid
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited May 2006
Actually, event though everything Iawa has said and presented kinda makes everything I said redundant...I still wouldn't mind a concensus of my post #287...just to see if i should at least keep that, or reject it....
When I read a teacher trying to explain something they had put much earnest effort to arrive at I often see the words "Its simple really" at the end of thier teaching.
Something like:
No I but a new awareness moment to moment built on the last self a moment before. Simple really.
As a poor student that just became aware of the path much less started down it I would say "By George I think she got it"
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited May 2006
aing....Would you be able to join our discussion...., Nice to have your thoughts....
people, I have got as far as Chapter 21, and have got notes on my thoughts....
How are we doing, with regard to picking up again - when and at what point.....??
Where are we at gang? "Two Truths" or "Three Dharma Seals"? I guess that since I was a bit discombobulated (a professional term, LOL!) I'm not sure what people were thinking. It's up to everyone as it's everyone's thread, not just mine.
Thank you all for your patience. I wasn't expecting that bout of depression to hurt so hard. Getting better as we speak. Still not all the way through it but feeling like doing some other things besides looking at the computer and staring at a stupid video game.
Comments
Sorry, I totally forgot about the thread this week. I got really busy with doctor's appointments and blanked on it. Oh, I got a new IPod which also closes off ones mind to more important things. Will post later.
If anyone knows why we aren't getting email notifications anymore, please let me know. I haven't gotten one in weeks and have to come and check on all the threads I check out. What's going on?
I'm ready for the next chapter (whatever it is) whenever you are ready!
-bf
Diggin' the Ipod, eh? I was eyeballing them the other day. But I've got an Iriver that has been working too well for me to justify buying something else! I love these things though! I've got about 4,000 mp3's and they work great on a motorcycle ride in warm, sunny weather!
No. Not really. But necessary. And my one gift was getting people to talk, coaxing out their little imps and demons and shining the light of day on them, which is an excellent spell for showing the little buggers up for the shams they are. In sunlight they shrink and when you laugh at them, they get embarrassed and go away. So my best spell was always laughter.
The best accolade I’ve had in ages was this week when I explained that I can’t be around quite so much and people said “You make us laugh”. That meant a lot to me.
And then I discover that there is a word for this – better still, it’s a power, the sixth power, Kshanti “When we are near someone like this, we feel happy also. Even when she enters hell, she will lighten up hell with the sound of her laughter….. Every moment is an opportunity to water the seeds of happiness in yourself .”
So I’ve got it, I’ve finally got it – my role. Well bring on the flames and the pitchforks cos I’m ready – I’ve already giggled my way through more hell than most people get to see in one lifetime, so bring it on – and laugh with me.
I never got on very well with ceremonial magic. Always seemed too pompous. Me, I'm more your "hedge wizard", so I can quite relate to what you're syaing, Witch Sister.
But, right, practical rules OK. And FUNNY practical rocks!
I'm really sorry about the thread this week. Been experiencing some pain that just won't stop and not been online much at all. I still don't get email notifications about posts. Wrote Brian to find out why I didn't get on the list. HMMM.
If you all can stand to be without me for a week, go ahead and discuss the chapter where we are at. I'm sorry to say I'm just not doing well at the moment. I see the rehab doc on Tuesday and will ask her what she thinks. Oh, gonna start losing the gut I got from laying around too! That will definitely help.
was wondering what that is like?
colleen
It was naturally translated into English, and is wonderfully poetic... it's basically the ritual of accompanying a dying/dead person through the Bardo of Death....
Wishing you'd get better....
-bf
Sending you my love, Jerry! I'm holding your hand right now...
Brigid
regards,
Get well soon!
Xrayman
He said you would have to have your stomach removed immediately and won't ever be able to eat again. They will be over to put in the feeding tube tomorrow.
Hey Gang,
I would like to make a suggestion for those who are interested in following this thread. If you are reading the book, would you take a chapter/week? This has gotten to be a bit overwhelming for me with all the doctors appointments and therapies. I still want this to go on but could use a hand. Please think about it and let me know. If all goes well, I will be posting about Chapter 17 this weekend.
What chapter by Monday?
-bf
BF,
I'm trying to do this thread, not that I'm trying. Trying to drive others insane is a talent of mine. Speaking of mines............wait, what were we talking about?
I thought I would start this chapter with the various statements that really struck home with me:
Regarding the Five Rememberances...
-- The Heart of the Buddha's Teachings: Transforming Suffering into Peace, Joy and Liberation. Thich Nhat Hanh. First Broadway Books trade paperback edition published 1999.
Although some of these quotes are kind of difficult to get your head around - since the manner in which I've posted them leaves out a lot of dialogue and explanation...
I felt this chapter did a great job of making us recognize how we view things.
I know for me, it's very easy to slip into the mindset and preconceptions I nurtured before I started my practice. Quote from this chapter would be great posted on my wall so that I could see them on a daily basis.
-bf
Good, I thought it was the narcotics and I was just stoned. I kept reading it and going "Huh?". The one thing that I did get out of it is to keep trying. We may not get what is being said for quite a long time but if we continue to look one day we shall find it.
One thing though that I'm going to paraphrase is his description of the rose not being a rose. When you do break things down into it's basic elements, the whole does not exist. You could even do that to the individual elements. When I do think about this, it reminds me that things aren't always what you see. We have to look closer. Then you truly see what it is.
One night I was lying in bed and began breaking the body down into it's different parts mentally. By the end, I realized that I truly don't exist. This was pre-Buddhism. I may have to do that again. It was kind of scary to realize that you aren't what you think. But maybe it will be easier this time.
Thanks for taking this week BF. It is appreciated. I will make sure to have something up by Sunday night. Next week is going to be busy so I need to do it early. Heck I might even do it today if the chapter isn't really long.
I'm not even reading this book but I'm really getting what you both wrote.
BF,
The first quote you posted sounds like what's starting to happen to me. At some point I stopped seeing the Path as something I had to follow and it started just being my life in general. There are still so many things that I have to remind myself of constantly. But the way I'm looking at the whole thing is completely different. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that I don't have many distractions and I have a lot of time to think about it. It's just always here now. I don't know if I expressed that properly.
And Jerry,
What you just described could be the first time I've ever had even the smallest understanding of emptiness or no self. I was trying to understand it through the Dalai Lama's example of a chair not having any intrinsic chair-ness value. But I wanted to do it on a molecular level. As in, when you get down to the molecular level, (or is it the atomic level), all there is is just a bunch of molecules floating around.
But the way you described breaking down the elements of the body and finding the non-existence of the whole is so good. I can grasp that. That's the point I'm going to use to start from, I think. Thanks.
Brigid
Am saying nothing, as I think I may need to read it twice over to try to absorb it's instruction... phew...it don't get any easier....!
"The more I find out the less I know.....!"
Looks like we're at chapter 18, right?
Yes,
I believe so.
-bf
As my topic line says, I'm going to have to stop for a while on this thread. Something that I don't talk about on this board is that I have bouts of major depression. I am currently going through a bout and that is why no posts or erratic posts. I swear I will try to sit down and read the book and it makes no sense at all to me. I don't think it fair of me to hold you all up either. Sorry the neurochemistry is whacked out now, but I think the stress of my physical ailments built up and hit really hard as depression. The good news is that I've already sought out help and getting treatment for it. So, keep me in your thoughts. I may post on other threads. I can seem to post to one a day. So, I hope you all learn lots. Only 11 chapters to go! I'm sure BF will let me know how it's going.
You don't get off THAT lightly...
You ol' scoundrel you.....
it's your BIRTHDAY!!!!
Yay you!!
You know we're all thinking about you, and holding up for you, and we're always here for you....
Try to have a really good one!
:bowdown: :cheer: :woowoo: :birthday: :bigclap: :wavey: :thumbsup:
Love,
Brigid
OK.... Chapter 17 dealt with the Two Truths:
Relative (or worldly) Truth......... that if we realise that suffering exists, we come to terms with the fact that Joy must exist also.... they are the two sides of the same coin....
And Absolute Truth.... that we realise in fact that all is transitory and impermanent, and that the underlying understanding and appreciation of the Buddha's teachings permits us to transcend Life, and dwell permanently in an inner state of Joy....
I believe (and hope) this is the bare stripped-grains crux of it....
But oh boy!! Chapter 18 takes us a stage further....
let me just get all of this down....
We have the Three Dharma Seals:
Impermanence (anitya) Non-Self (atman) and "The extinction of all Notions" (Nirvana).
Unless we grasp and learn and accept these three as an absolutely vital and essential part of the Buddha's teachings, our learning is incomplete, and our progress is halted.
I guess.
Impermanence is something we live with every second of our lives, because as each second passes, our Mortality is more defined and highlighted... we move closer and closer to our own demise....
Non-Self is a little more difficult to grasp, but for me perhaps, specifically because I have not digested it as much as I could have.... but I agree with it completely, inspite of my scant study... I am as connected to the fallen leaf of the tree, as was the twig from whence it came. The leaf and I are one: we are inseparable... I am it, and it is you, and you are they, and so on ad infinitum..... The tortured monk in Tibet is as much a part of us as is his torturer.... That hurts.....
TNH outlined the 8 concepts:
Birth, Death, permanence, Dissolution, Coming, Going, One, Many.
and how realisation of Non-Self & Nirvana meant accepting the Eight 'No's' of the Middle Way:
No Birth, No Death, No permanence, No Dissolution, No Coming, No Going, No One, No Many..... so it follows that we reach -
Nirvana - the complete and total release of every single thing that binds us, or to which we are bound (by our Ignorance, our Clinging, our Grasping, all of our Suffering.....)
So far, I got it all....
Then, our good friend TNH just had to step it up a notch, dinn' he...?
he brought in to play The 2 Relevances:
1) Relevance to the Essence
2) Relevance to the Circumstances
Rleveance to the Essence is Relevance to the 3 Dharma Seals: when we talk to others on the Teachings of the Buddha, we should always refer to these three essentials
Relevance to the circumstances:
Make sure that you speak of the Buddha's teachings in a way that is relevant to the moment or circumstance...
("Does my ass look big in this?" is not the time to say, "well, it's impermanent - it will either get bigger or smaller, and your ass is my ass, and anyway, it is of no consequence, because the notion of a big ass is not a notion to hold on to....")
He then gave the 4 Standards of Truth:
1) Relative (Worldly) Truth - See Chapter 17
2) The person: Suiting the Truth to the person, their circumstance and their situation
3) Healing: Our words should be transmitted in such a way as to seek to heal that which ails them (mentally or physically)
4) The Absolute Truth - (see chapter 17) The Truth on non-Self and the ending of Notions.....
Then he finally touched upon the 4 Reliances:
1) To rely upon the teaching,, not the person (Finger pointing at the Moon, type of thing....)
2) To rely on the discourses where the teachings are taught in terms of Absolute Truth, as opposed to relative Truth....
Fortunately (for me!) TNH had a bit of a problem with this one too.... how can we know, in our primary stages, how to distinguish one from the other, if we have not sampled both...? We have to be able to progress from those of a relative Truth, to those of an Absolute Truth. only by knowing the first, can we then move on to the second.
now i understand why some of the Sutra discussions on this board leave me high and dry.
OK. It's cool....
3) Rely on the Meaning, not on the Words.... learn to appreciate the full intention of the teaching. When in doubt, ask; examine, dissect, purge, strip and really search, I guess......
4) Rely on Insight - look really deeply - don't just rely on differentiation, or discrimination, but I guess, the Kalama Sutra.... comes in handy, everywhere!!
This is what I managed to glean from chapter 18... I've broken it down into it's basic components and put them forward.... It helped me. Maybe you could all add something....
Thanks for reading!
This is priceless, Fede!!! LMAO!
I have nothing to add because I'm not reading the book. So I guess I'm just interrupting.
But I do want to say that the way you put all this subtle stuff was very clear, Fede. You're really good at this. And thank you for doing so. I don't have the book so I've been acquainting myself with it vicariously through you guys. I appreciate the work that went into this, Fede.
I'll go now.
Love,
Brigid
I made it through, by the skin of my teeth, to just about wrapping my poor little empty head around stuff so far, but "The Three Doors of Liberation" are difficult fo me to digest..
Specifically the first...Sunyatta, or Emptiness...
Now, I've tried to use a different terminology, like referring to it as being a fillable void, or trying to "see" the emptiness of the flower, how we're all interconnected... the other two Doors, I'm a bit better at 'grasping' (in the 'getting the hang of' sense, not 'Clinging and Attachment' - as if I need to make THAT clear - ! :rolleyesc )
Signlessness:.....avoid labelling or categorising... 'Things are not what they seem - nor are they otherwise'...
Aimlessness... Go nowhere, do nothing, don't strive to be 'somewhere else' when all that is perfect and as it should be, is Here and Now....
I'm OK with these two...I got those.... But the first one...Dang!!
Could somebody explain it in simple, non-pali-worded, legible, plain-English terminology for me..... Please.....?
ps..
nice lips! tehe
The thing about sunyata is that it can't be described, like the Tao, which makes it a bit of a bugger to discuss. This has, however, never stopped the theologians!
For me, the Void or the Abyss or Sunyata or whatever term we fail to describe it by is Pure Potential before any realisation ("making 'real'") or incarnation of that potential; it is the state of pregnancy that brings forth.
I do hope that this simple explanation will now open the doors of your eyes so that they can hear and of your ears so that they can smell, etc., the non-taste of the silence before the Word was ever spoken.
"Being" would indicate that there is something... something that is connected with everything else. The author makes a great point of constantly discussing how "we cannot be by ourselves alone".
I have to keep to keep re-reading "We are empty of a separate, independant self. We cannot be by ourselves alone. We can only inter-be with everything else in the cosmos."
But I sometimes feel the hardder it's explained, the less I find that I'm following along.
-bf
I've also heard it explained as not-self instead of no-self. To me this makes more sense, as I can somewhat "grasp" it. :rolleyesc
Usually we take the "self" to be an autonomous entity, apart from everthing else, while in fact it is conditioned by and dependent on everything else.
So, it seems to be just an idea looking at other ideas.
Disclaimer: I'm pretty new at this, so I could be pretty wrong.
Not self, (and I am being soooo simplistic here, we're back to 'Janet and John', levels!) as I have understood it, is accepting that we are merely a bundle of aggregates... Skandas... and broken down into bare component parts (and we keep breaking down, and breaking down) we come to the understanding that self is valid, but Not-Self is the Truth...
Sunyatta then comes along, and knocks me for six...
"Form is emptiness, emptiness is form.... "
So are they one and the same? Are they different? are they different and the same? is it our friend Semantics and mis-translation getting in the way again?
TNH has managed to put it down on paper, so there MUST be a way of 'explaining' it - but maybe I just don't have the mind-set to understand it on the level he's explaining it.... And as, apparently, if I don't progress and absorb this, I can never know, or reach my destination, (I feel like some forlorn kid sitting on a battered suitcase in the middle of Grand Central Station!) what then do I do...?
I need to reiterate - this needs to be expounded to me in plain English -
I'm a Simple-Minded Self....!
OK... I'm going to put this as simplistically as I can...Some of the finer points might need adjustment and review, but bear with me....
We are Self, but Not-Self....That is to say, we live, we breathe, we exist, we function, we feel, we ARE - But we 'Are' not. The aggregates, the composite of Skhandas are separable, and able to be infinitessimally broken down, and dissolved into what it is that ultimately moves from one existence to another....
With me so far....?
A flower, a tree, a table, a cloud, a bird, a leaf, a blade of grass a mountain - these too, are all composites and all divisible in the same way...Broken down right down to a breath of air, a ray of sunshine a drop of water....Just like us....
So we ARE the flower, and the flower is us... We can equate and be one with the tree, because all that the tree is, is in us.... Wea ARE the Bird, we are related to, connected to and part and parcel of everything else, because everything else, like us, is nothing....No-Thing....
And we travel through time, except that Time also, does not exist, either.... We measure time for our own vital convenience - Birthdays, appointments, air-travel timetables, days, weeks, months and years - but 'Time' itself does not exist.... The Past is gone, untouchable, unreal...the Future is uncertain, unpredictable and unreal - We have but the instant we are in - all the rest, is not time.... it doesn't exist. Only the 'Now' exists - The 'Not-Time' where our Not-Self lives......
See?
Simple really.
Dear STP,:rolleyesc
I use this argument all the time! when I try to make out that I somehow understand Quantum Mechanics-I tell people That it can't be described-gets me off the hook all the time. :winkc:
I also like to put people in a situation by saying, "Only an idiot would disagree with me on this..", Works all the time!
cheers all
X
English, as a language, does not adjust itself well to deep metaphysics. It is a language for traders and soldiers. Latin suffered from much the same limitations until the Church got hold of it and invented necessary terminology.
In the modern European languages, Spanish (particularly South American) and German have given us extraordinary poets of the Abyss. Look at Rilke.
It is strange that the notion of the Abyss-From-Which-All-Things-Arise has dropped out of our sense of the numenous because we can finds it in the 'source' religions of Sumer and Egypt, as well as in the myths of Asgard. Mainstream religions arising from the Tanakh appear to shy away from the "empty and void" of the first chapter of Genesis.
You say back-slider like it's a bad thing! I used to call myself a recovering fundamentalist, but then realized I didn't want any fundy label at all! what am I today? Not sure since "I" don't exist.
Just wondering if my post #287 has actually made sense to anyone.....? :crazy:
-bf
So I'm with you guys...!!
great to have you back Jerbear...!
To have a solid "yes" would be to close myself off from greater possibilities and prove that my mind is closed. Perhaps it's the images established in our mind that is getting in the way. Can one say that there is no self. To find out one has to be open and honest to see how this self has been formed to discover what truth is in it. It takes inquiry without judgement a capacity to simply be with what is. As an awareness impressions are continuosly recieved through the senses. Through continous contact with those impressions an image is established. "This is this" and "that is that", thereby creating a seperation and conflict ensues. The thing is, my awareness is limited in the impressions it recieves, so the conclusions that I make are incomplete. The image of a self (or other for that matter) is an illusion of solidity that has been formed by the mind. So, if the self is an incomplete formation generated as a function of the brain to establish a sense of security it is empty, not self.
Like form is emptyness, and emptyness is form. Self and not-self are both in the oneness of being.
A practitioner of Zen came up with a theory and practice, "The Headless Way"
http://www.headless.org/English/main.html
If you have time check out the movies (particularly 8), and maybe try the experiments.
The use of the concept of "no thing" in awareness and his example of action from stillness made a major impression on me
I got two glimpses at the beginning of the experiments but I lost it when I went along because my mind intruded. I've saved the site and I'm going to go back often and try them. I had the coolest experience, I felt very aware and part of everything, the birds outside my window, the desk my hand was on with our molecules intermingling, and the wind... I can't describe it. It was cool.
Thanks. I feel a different perspective, a much bigger, wider one but also a deeper, molecular one at the same time, not that they're different. I can't use words for this. It's wrecking it. I'm going to shut up now.
Brigid
(Either way, I'll let it go....;) )
When I read a teacher trying to explain something they had put much earnest effort to arrive at I often see the words "Its simple really" at the end of thier teaching.
Something like:
No I but a new awareness moment to moment built on the last self a moment before. Simple really.
As a poor student that just became aware of the path much less started down it I would say "By George I think she got it"
people, I have got as far as Chapter 21, and have got notes on my thoughts....
How are we doing, with regard to picking up again - when and at what point.....??
Thank you all for your patience. I wasn't expecting that bout of depression to hurt so hard. Getting better as we speak. Still not all the way through it but feeling like doing some other things besides looking at the computer and staring at a stupid video game.
Brigid, look for an email today.