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Jesus is the way... please help....
a friend came over the other day and noticed my books and information on buddhism and asked me what it was about. i told her that it was my beliefs. she started ranting and raving about how jesus is the way and the light of the world- and no man can go to god but through him, etc. no need to elaborate on all her comments- but i just wanted to know- what can u say to this? i know that i am going to be asked so much about it all the time and i am currently just remaining quiet and excusing myself, but what is recommended when people attack my belief system and try to force theirs down my throat- threatening me with burning fires and eternal hell?
i am getting a bit frustrated and its ruining my state of mind.
i am getting a bit frustrated and its ruining my state of mind.
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Comments
As a practical matter, you might keep a couple of things in mind when talking with "friends" who insist on being unfriendly. 1. When confronted by someone who insists on Jesus or Buddha or whatever pet they've chosen as a means of asserting or attaining some happiness, hear them out. And then, because you are "friends," you might say something like, "I am really happy you have found a way that provides answers and joy in your life. Really, I am happy for you." If they try to rekindle the debate and get you to agree with them, just tell them again how happy you are for them. Don't play the my-stuff-is-better-than-your-stuff game. 2. If you feel inclined to describe your interest in Buddhism, describe it just that way: "My interest and my experience is such-and-such." Don't say "this is the one true faith" or "I know everything about Buddhism" or "Buddhism is best." Just state your preference in the same way you might say in a restaurant, "I prefer chicken."
Just a couple of thoughts.
Always keep in mind that people only know what they are taught and figure out for themselves from their life experiences. Don't judge them poorly for their conditioning. Also Buddhism is a means of awakening of the mind to the reality of the mind itself, it doesn't necessarily mean there's no truth to be found in other "religions".
When people describe cathartically good experiences and analyze them it usually deflates them haha
For example: Enlightened Beings will allow a mosquito to suck their blood while they pray for the insect's well being. I can't do that just yet!
I'm not perfected yet so I would (and indeed have) fortified myself with respect to such aggressive self-centered religious zeal by getting some reading done. Here's a good place to start (picture below). There are many others at Amazon.
The point? NOT to inflict harsh criticism BACK at her, but rather for you to have more confidence to relax and observe what's going on with her. See what she's under the influence of. Maybe even help HER relax and get better adjusted.
Good luck!
Good luck telling that to someone whose whole life is constructed and secure around notions of heaven and hell, etc.
All you can do is smile and nod and show them that you can be a great person with or without Jesus Christ.
Good luck.
I generally say, if it's a "polite" reaction by them, "Well, I certainly respect your beliefs, I assume you will respect mine" and then change the subject.
If they are more rude in their reaction to hearing I'm Buddhist, I say in a casual yet firm manner, "I'll tell ya what, I won't knock your beliefs and you don't knock mine. How's that?" and then that usually shuts them up.
If they are polite and interested (rare), then I might share a few basic principal beliefs of Buddhism, that we practice loving-kindness, compassion toward all beings, etc. But that's only if they are interested.
I have an aunt that I am very close with in all regards, except religion. She is a Jehovah's Witness and once attempted to argue with me that Buddha is a God that is worshipped. As "proof" she brought out a Jehovah's Witness published book on world religions, reading from it that clearly Buddha is a God. There was no explaining to her that it was incorrect; she was reading a book published by her own religion. All I could say was "I would suggest doing some reading from non-baised books, because Buddha was absolutely not a God and never claimed to be". We agreed to disagree, but yes, it is frustrating.
Bottom line is some Christians are hell bent (no pun intended) on "saving us" and there's nothing we can do to change their minds. I wouldn't want to change their beliefs any more than I would want them to change mine, so debating it may come off that way. I think it's best just to ask that they respect your beliefs as a friend and change the subject.
But it also contain mind training techniques to allow you to develop your mind and be able to concentrate more easily (on things like homework if she is at school age).
You can tell her "if you want to be good at sport, you will exercise your body often and get better right? So I want to be good at thinking and dealing with emotions, so i exercise my mind so it become stronger."
When you can engage in a heated debate without ill-will or negative feelings then you have learned a real buddhist lesson.
Otherwise just tell your friend you do not like to discuss the subject...firmly. Several times if needed.
If you want to do it the agressive way then attack her belief. It is not hard to do if you know your bible...but I do not really advise that. It is cruel and petty.. But it may be the only way to make her stop.
Kr Victor
Get it through your heads, that to some people you are evil, Idol worshipers at worse and morons who have been brainwashed by the Devil at best. They are not at all interested or willing to listen and if you try to say anything, it only gives them an excuse to continue the confrontation. They know everything they need to know, and their preachers have told them all they need to know about your pagan, idol worshiping ways. Don't waste your time trying to hold a conversation with a closed mind. All it does it make the person angry and frustrates you.
Not every encounter is going to be an opportunity to spread the gospel of Buddha. Sometimes all you can do is practice your compassion for the person and not take it personally.
I would just simply respect my friend's right to have their opinion but I would point I disagree with their viewpoint.
Kind regards
(....)
a good friendship is basis of respect if she's a christian remind her that it is god who will do the judging.
Was that comment really necessary?
bear in mind we have minors on this forum....
I removed a rather vulgar observation from his post.
:rockon:
If you are a male and she is a female, probably is that she is looking for true sex to free the knot of love trap inside her, just wanna set her free
Or words to that effect. If that doesn't work, just ignore it and talk about the weather.
I try not to make a habit out of engaging with religious fanatics. But, I also believe there can be some benefit involved in doing so, if the mind is free of ill-will. The main benefit being that it may help you to clarify to yourself your own thoughts. My standard response when conversing with Christian fanatics:
Them: Jesus is the way. There is no other way to the kingdom of heaven except through him. If you do not accept Jesus then you will perish.
Me: Maybe that's true, maybe it's not. You are entitled to your opinion just as I am entitled to mine.
...hopefully this is the end of the conversation, but often it's not...
Them: Jesus was the Lord's only begotten son, no soul can be saved except through him. That is a fact, not an opinion, read your bible.
Me: Why is it fact?
Them: Because it's in the Bible.
Me: How do you know the Bible is fact?
Them: Because it was written by God.
Me: How do you know it was written by God?
Them: Because it says so in the Bible.
Me: Okay, suppose that is the case. It's not my fault I don't believe in the Bible, it's my conditioning to be skeptical of it. If God is compassionate and forgiving surely he will forgive me for not accepting Jesus and if I see God/Jesus after death I will ask forgiveness of him then.
Them: It will be too late then.
Me: What if I am a good person? Won't that account for anything?
Them: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from youselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do " (Eph. 2:8,9).
Me: So, according to you, I must accept that which I cannot see or verify in order to be saved - but - when I can see and verify it then it is too late to accept it? How could a compassionate and loving god subject me to that?
Them: It is not God's fault if you do not accept him, it is your own.
As you can see, there is no reasoning with such people. They use "circular reasoning" to defend their position. Therefore, it is probably a waste of time. But, I believe that maybe the younger Christians who are not yet firm in their faith, if they decide to attack your religion, if you use reason and logic you may be able to plant a seed in their mind that maybe they don't know everything.
There is nothing wrong with Christians in general, but the ones that are 100% convinced they are right based on faith alone and want to shout it from the hilltops can be quite challenging. There are bascially two types of Christians; those who want to save your soul and those who are happy to have a nice conversation with you. Don't allow your experience with the former to cloud your perception of the latter. Not all Christians are the same.
Metta,
Guy
Metta,
Guy
The fear, the clinging, it's all dukkha and it feeds upon itself.
We can overcome this conflict, but we have to give up all clinging to a self. Buddhism teaches how to do this.
http://www.cs.umd.edu/~mvz/bible/bible-inconsistencies.pdf
If people really want to debate holy texts.
I like it that Buddha's teachings and life has a documented existence from "day one."
Jesus wasn't even mentioned until 80 years after his death, right? There are no 100% certain teachings of Jesus in existence.
Buddha? Unbroken lineage. Jesus, sadly fragmentary.
What makes me happy is Jesus and Buddha have quite parallel messages.
It's the elaborate mythology built around Jesus in this heavily edited, fragmentary and highly inconsistent Bible that's problematic.
Anyway, go easy on the Bible believers. AFAIK, many of them make a hairy claim to know all about an actual, one-and-only and absolute God's character and intentions. They're committed to that - wow, what a huge can of worms! Not that there's anything WRONG with that, and certainly not that _I_ know any better.
Besides, no reason to make a mockery of someone else's beliefs.
We should all be polite to each other in respect of shared suffering.
This is why if a situation came up, I wouldn't make it about religion, just about right now. Here. This.
The biggest point, most easily made and noticeable, is that though everything in life shows itself to be impermanent... this is not how we live our lives. We do the opposite. We try to define ourselves, want things not necessarily in our control, have a lot of fear and anger (not to mention possessiveness). Falling from the cliff-top and heading toward inevitable change, trying to grab at everything we see on the way down.
As you know, I was thinking of the original poster might be college age with different "standards." Yeah, probably not; probably the same standards. Why should they be different?! Just talking.
We all consider ourselves to be unique, individual, and our way of thinking just-so and not quite like anyone else's. The truth is more that our experiences differ, but the way our mind works is the same. This is why the Buddhist teachings are so effective; they apply to the very foundation of our thinking.
I have not read all the post so excuse me if I am repeating something already said.
What to do? I guess the Seven Point Mind Training would suggest you treat you detractors as you best friend in showing up the chinks in your meditation practice. Once you have been alerted to being unsettled about this 'intrusion' by you so-called friend, you might realize that is exactly what has happen - an intrusion - a distraction.
The only person who is control of your state of mind is yourself.
Stand your ground.
The best strategy so far, for me, has been to develop a simple statement and repeat it for as long as it takes to stop the rant.
“I don’t share your beliefs, and you are just going to have to accept that. That is all I have to say on the subject.”
…
“I don’t share your beliefs, and you are just going to have to accept that.”
….
“I don’t share your beliefs, and you are just going to have to accept that.”
….
“I don’t share your beliefs, and you are just going to have to accept that.”
…
When you answer questions or respond to the subject-matter you will probably end up in a heated debate to which there is no end.
You can have such debates of course if you like them, but you don’t have to be forced into them, and you can stand your ground anyway.
Good luck!
But I have successfully diverted people into discussing the importance of kindness and helping those less fortunate. I may say something like "Of course, Jesus taught that you should love everyone, without judgement, which is something I strongly agree with" And then we might discuss the activities of particular Christian charities or whatever (I used to be devout Christian so I know a lot about it).
Christians who evangelise are generally anxious and trying to do their duty, as they see it, to their religion. But few, if any, enjoy the experience. Hence I've found it relatively easy to get them to talk about their religion, but in a far more pleasant context, like good works etc.
The other day, I ended talking to a Christian friend about how hard it was not to be judgemental when people were abusive and aggressive, despite our attempts to show them kindness and respect. So we ended up empathising with each other and actually supporting each other's attempts to learn to be more loving to the 'unloveable'. I even shared with her some of the Buddhist teachings I'd received on how to show genuine compassion! (I didn't explicitly mention it was Buddhist teachings - we were by then just talking as one human to another).
But if they are determined to convert you, all you can do sometimes is say politely, "I don't want to debate with you, so can we please change the subject?"
Pardon me, but aren't we no better here than the so-called "fundamental Christians" by calling them names eg fanatics?
As I have shared b4, from where I come from, you are considered "non-traditional" if you practise Christianity. It's all relative. Let's be open to all possibilities as some have suggested here.
I'm still stuck on the fact that college "kids" have hormones gone wild and maybe they can do their "debates" or "philosophical discussions" a little bit differently. I remember a movie or documentary I saw (forgot title), how young Buddhist monks were "getting away with murder" so to speak, because they were so young. OK OK..., I'll shut up now on that issue!
Hitchens explains some of what's going on in terms of thought control techniques by these organizations. The military uses the same techniques no matter which nation.
OOPS! Lemme say again: not all Christians have these motives and put these techniques to use. The Hitchens book _IS_ a bit..., near..., uhh..., close to but not into the extreme. Good dramatic reading actually.
Such beliefs are not motivated by arrogance, they are motivated by fear, real, deep-seated fear that what they have been taught is correct and all the people they love, no matter how good in human terms, will go to an eternal hell unless they become Born Again Christians.
So annoying as it may be to those of us of different faiths, their actions are motivated by love and concern, and IMHO should be respected as such. They aren't deliberately trying to be irritating, they're trying to save us.
Unfortunately, their saving attempts are rather like the guy who marched a blind friend of mine across a road, even though she had just been standing near the kerb and had no intention of crossing! It is idiot compassion.
But the way to confront idiot compassion is not the accuse said 'idiot' of being immoral, or even of accusing them of being an idiot. The best way is to attempt to redirect that compassion to genuine compassion instead. For instance in pointing out that they aren't going to save anybody by force or emotional blackmail, and that much as they may wish to 'save' you, ultimately that decision is only in your hands. They wouldn't want you to be hypocritical just to please them, would they?
I usually go into my "treat them like pets" mode. My little way of giving every benefit to my cats, I give every benefit to such people.
My cats can do no wrong, they don't "know" any better. MY cat's can do no wrong no matter how annoying, in a state of weakness, I might INTERPRET their actions to be.
I treat zealots like I treat my cats. Hummm..., well..., I'm sorry for using the word "zealot," it sounds kind of harsh..., oh well..., I'm using it in the kindest way possible. I might find a better word, but we're just talking, being informal here.
There are people, atheists mostly but some Buddhists, who think any Christian is a fanatic. I don't think we have those here. We're talking about a certain type of Christian here that has both specific intolerant beliefs about people of other religions, and who feels they have the right to confront you about it, even though your religion is none of their business. That's the definition of a fanatic fundamentalist. So no, describing a person accurately is not the same thing as getting in that person's face and yelling about how they're going to Hell.
Some of the finest people I know, family and friends, are Christians and some are fundamentalists. None of them are fanatics.
However: the mashed potatoes hit the fan at the dinner table when Creationism becomes a subject at family gatherings. Hey! It's NOT I! I shut the heck up! I try to tone it down!
Yep, "fanatic" is a bad choice of words. Gotta go with "delusional;" it's related to "fanatic," right? Will look into it.
Anyway my Creationist relatives have absolute faith in the scientific method, enjoy it's benefits in other ways, but somehow became totally convinced all University Paleontologists are liars involved in a conspiracy as far as Darwin is concerned.
Just talking. Not trying to proscribe behaviors other than tolerance and kindness. Just sorting thru this stuff.
Delusional: (yes we all have delusions and have to tolerate them in others). No big deal. Here's the definition:
delusion |diˈloō zh ən|
noun
an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder : the delusion of being watched.
• the action of deluding someone or the state of being deluded : what a capacity television has for delusion.
Now, in the case of strong emotionally religious people, it might be quite unskillful to talk to them about religion or beliefs, because differences can be quite painful for them. Imagine how scared they might be that their loved one (you) might end up in eternal suffering if you don't follow their deity/golden child/Church.
Still, it is good if someone who is scared can learn to be kind at the same time, and perhaps your loving response could naturally help them see that fear is abrasive. "Wow, that feeling sounds very potent for you, must you use that feeling to attack my beliefs? It doesn't feel nice." "I'm not enjoying this, could we do something else in this moment?" There is no reason to pretend an exchange that feels icky is anything else, and dealing with it at the level of feeling seems to be the most direct and politically/religiously free.
Remember though, its about them and their actions, hopefully you can see how their patterns have nothing to do with you! When I have been at my most snarky, I said something like "You'll have to trust that your savior will also move me in the same way he moved yourself, however, you in this moment are not anything close to the right kind of thing that would pull me into Jesus' fold." I usually consider it rude, though, to point out a person's hypocritical actions unless they're asking for help or aiming them at the people around us.
With warmth,
Matt
There's no substitute for "loving kindness."
I might be getting there completely eventually.
Now I'm learning that in apparently just a few exceptional cases I can only get to "liking niceness."