Do We All Become Elightened - Eventually?

FairyFeller · September 2012

I'm still very new to Buddhism and have been do a lot of reading from various sources and have read about quite a few different schools. One supposedly enlightened one claimed he would go ahead and set up a plain of existence where we would all go if we believed in him where we would automatically learn the secret to enlightenment. Another one where if we say the name of another enlightened one we would move to an enlightened existence when we die.

If the cycle of rebirth or reincarnation continues does it go on until we ourselves become enlightened? As time is effectively finite what happens to us if we don't become enlightened in time?

ThailandTom · September 2012

There is no real secret if you study enough, it is like being given a map with the destination pointed out, just getting there is the tricky part. (although nirvana is not actually a place). I personally cannot say if we all eventually will become awoken to the truth and have full realisation, I guess if the human race was able to go on for infinity then yes.. :wtf: I dunno lol, it isn't really a question that is important to our own practice though, but I can see why someone who is new to Buddhism would ask such things out of curiosity.

federica · September 2012

That's the plan... but as Rabbie Burns so succinctly put it,

"The best-laid schemes o' mice and men gang aft agley".

Songhill · September 2012

FairyFeller:

If the cycle of rebirth or reincarnation continues does it go on until we ourselves become enlightened? As time is effectively finite what happens to us if we don't become enlightened in time?

Unfortunately, enlightenment doesn't come automatically nor at the end of time. We could be caught in samsara forever. The belief that samsara will eventually turn into nirvana was a theory advanced by a contemporary of the Buddha, Makkhali Gosala. He believed that everyone eventually becomes purifed in samsara (he was considered to be one of the worst sophists by the Buddha).

RebeccaS · September 2012

I'm kinda with @Songhill on this one, but for different reasons. I mean, the idea that we'll all reach enlightenment takes any freedom of will out of it. I personally believe we have that freedom, which means we also have the choice to not become enlightened, and to turn our backs on any path that could lead to enlightenment.

federica · September 2012

And oddly enough, that's really what we all choose.... never more were the words "Drop it" so appropriate - and so ignored, so much, by so many.

person · September 2012

There's some sutta where the Buddha is asked this question and I'm pretty sure he kept silent on the issue or some similar kind of answer.

Also I wonder why you think that time is finite, if you have some reasoning or is it a scientific notion?

PrairieGhost · September 2012

Isn't it up to us? Whether everybody gets a place on the lifeboat? There's certainly room for everyone.

andyrobyn · September 2012

Some will say yes, some will say no - some will quote a sutta at you proclaiming the yes and another will find a different sutta claiming it says no.
A better question could be formulated, I think.

Patr · September 2012

Firstly, as The Maha Bodhisattva Ksitigharba famously announced;

"I will not attain Buddhahood as long as the hells are not empty. If not I who will (go to hell) do it, then who will?"

DairyLama · September 2012

FairyFeller said:
If the cycle of rebirth or reincarnation continues does it go on until we ourselves become enlightened? As time is effectively finite what happens to us if we don't become enlightened in time?

As I understand it ignorance and therefore suffering are effectively the default position for dependent origination. So if we don't practice, the cycle continues indefinitely.

PrairieGhost · September 2012

But our practice is dependently originated, no?

genkaku · September 2012

I always liked Thaddeus Golas' observation in "The Lazy Man's Guide to Enlightenment:" "When you learn to love hell, you will be in heaven."

Pretty simple, but of course "simple" doesn't mean "easy."

federica · September 2012

genkaku said:
.....
Pretty simple, but of course "simple" doesn't mean "easy."

Hey! hang on - that's MY line!!

(Oh wait.... I steal yours often enough. OK.... Fair do's......)

caz · September 2012

Everyone will become Enlightened eventually

Captain_America · September 2012

As much as I'd like to think that everyone will become Enlightened eventually, it seems just as far-fetched as a Christian believing everyone goes to heaven. Just my two cents, obviously.

Patr · September 2012

Lets do the math.

Say 0.00001% do get enlightened every hundred years, still eventually all will get their ticket one day, be it many many kalpas later.

DairyLama · September 2012

PrairieGhost said:
But our practice is dependently originated, no?

Yes, everything is.

caz · September 2012

Captain_America said:
As much as I'd like to think that everyone will become Enlightened eventually, it seems just as far-fetched as a Christian believing everyone goes to heaven. Just my two cents, obviously.

The Example you give of a Christian believing everyone goes to heaven is a poor comparison, It is widely shared between religious traditions that certain actions correlate with certain effects non virtues lead to suffering and likewise virtue leads to happiness. In the scope of Samsara being a beginingless experience of death and rebirth there is the opportunity for everyone without exception to eventually achieve enlightenment, Buddha likened finding Dharma to a blind turtle that surfaces once every hundred years in a vast ocean arising with a golden yoak over its head the opportunity to practice and complete the Dharma paths is rare indeed but even in coming into contact with Dharma or holy images an indestructible potential for accomplishing enlightenment is placed within the mind so without doubt everyone who comes into contact with Buddhadharma shall have the seed of accomplishment awaiting the correct conditions to ripen.

MaryAnne · September 2012

Enlightenment is not my goal - at least not in this lifetime. Perhaps there will come a future lifetime when Enlightenment will be the [my] goal... or perhaps not. ::shrugs::
Who knows? I don't even care, really.

I see it like this:

Un-Enlightened = returning to an earthy life - again and again, indefinitely and forever.
As opposed to Enlightenment = rising above these incarnations - indefinitely and forever.

I think earthly Un-Enlightened incarnations indefinitely and forever just *might be* a bit more fun, interesting and exciting than Enlightenment over all; even when it does contain a certain level of suffering to overcome.

I can't say I'm kidding about that 100%, either....

Songhill · September 2012

I think the American way of viewing this is to first assume that enlightenment is easy. Then consider living the good life vs the hard work of achieving enlightenment. Go with living the good life option for a while. Wait until things get really bad before giving up living the good life option. Incidentally, based on the canon, no one eventually becomes purified by samsara (the endless cycle of birth and death) sufficient to call it enlightenment. To think otherwise is puthujjana thinking.

jumbles · October 2012

Wow! You already are. Ordinary mind and enlightened mind are not two. At a high level of realization, they are not even one.

Jeffrey · October 2012

The meaning of bodhisattva in part means that they see directly and completely that any other being may become enlightened. However it is like every seed can become a plant, but not without fertilizer and sunshine and water.

According to the Jewel Ornament of liberation there is the potential to become a buddha for everyone. In this life we need leisure and endowment. That means we are not so distracted by pleasure or suffering that we can practice. And the endowment means we are intelligent and can read etc..

If you do not have leisure and endowment then you cannot become enlightened in this life, but just by devotion you can make karma for being in a world with darma having leisure and endowment next time.

Once you have buddha nature (seed), leisure and endowment (water) next we need a method.

attachment to pleasure, reflect on suffering
attachment to life/being, reflect on impermanence
attachment to peace, reflect on love

Because we do not have enough education on those three we enter the accumulation part of the dharma where we collect the knowledge and people in our life to learn. A perfect spiritual teacher is part of that, but we can find less perfect but suitable for our level teacher also. You can also practice without a teacher or find one in the next life.

Minbari · October 2012

FairyFeller said:
I'm still very new to Buddhism and have been do a lot of reading from various sources and have read about quite a few different schools. One supposedly enlightened one claimed he would go ahead and set up a plain of existence where we would all go if we believed in him where we would automatically learn the secret to enlightenment. Another one where if we say the name of another enlightened one we would move to an enlightened existence when we die.

If the cycle of rebirth or reincarnation continues does it go on until we ourselves become enlightened? As time is effectively finite what happens to us if we don't become enlightened in time?

New here too!
I would like to think we are all capable of Attaining Enlightenment.
my own newby instincts are also telling me that Buddhism, is a Personal thing, and that you can go as far as you allow yourself to go, Mindfulness, Meditation, and wisdom is the shoe leather you tread your path to Enlightenment with, how hard wearing it is, is up to you.

how · October 2012

Do We All Become Elightened - Eventually?
Look closely enough at this "We" and the question becomes unanswerable.

lobster · October 2012

I trust in myself as a future Buddha to send me back in time all the possible merit available to an enlightened being. Thanks future Buddha dude. :thumbsup:

Citta · October 2012

" Perhaps not realising that time is part of samsara is one thing that causes us to suppose that Enlightenment is something far off that we have to attain. "

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Songhill · October 2012

Buddhhood is not easy nor is being a foolish (bâla) human who will lose "human status" in the next life.

"Sooner or later, monks, could the blind turtle push his neck through the one hole in the yoke; more difficult than that, I say, is human status once again for the fool who has gone to his downfall." -Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 129

And who is a fool?

1) One thinking wrong thoughts (covetousness, malevolence and wrong views).
2) Speaking wrong words (lying and so on).
3) A doer of deeds wrongly done (making onslaught on creatures, etc.).

Cinorjer · October 2012

"So when everyone is special, then nobody is special!" (The Incredibles).

So this interesting question can be approached several ways.

There are billions of people shoving each other for elbow room on the Earth, having babies to carry on shoving and having more babies. Will these billions of people convert to Buddhism one day? Of course not. So in all our wonderful diversity, will we all look around and realize we're enlightened?

Well, no. That's absurd. It would require a world and a society vastly changed from today and people behaving different from anything in our wildest imaginations.

But that's no excuse not to work for it. That's what the Bodhisattva way is all about.

lobster · October 2012

My imagination is pretty wild. Society will change. People will change. Buddhism will change and become redundant. New forms and possibilities will arise. We will overcome our monkey minds and nature. We do indeed have to work for and towards an ideal middle way . . . :thumbsup:

Cinorjer · October 2012

lobster said:
My imagination is pretty wild. Society will change. People will change. Buddhism will change and become redundant. New forms and possibilities will arise. We will overcome our monkey minds and nature. We do indeed have to work for and towards an ideal middle way . . . :thumbsup:

Yep, the monks of a thousand years ago could never have imagined the world of today where we have a mechanical contraption wandering around Mars, of all things.

So we do our best and pass the Dharma on, like they did.

Songhill · October 2012

lobster:

How will Buddhism change and become redundant?

zenff · October 2012

lobster said:
My imagination is pretty wild. Society will change. People will change. Buddhism will change and become redundant. New forms and possibilities will arise. We will overcome our monkey minds and nature. We do indeed have to work for and towards an ideal middle way . . . :thumbsup:

Maybe it’s just technology. We need to understand the brain a little better and after that we can put a device (let’s call it a peacemaker) in our brain (like a pacemaker near our heart).
It will block the chemicals for the defilements and release the chemicals for bliss and peace of mind.

I suppose this peacemaker could be on some kind of remote control, so the Dhamma-police will be able to stop people from breaking the precepts.

We would all be living in Nirvana.

Wisdom23 · October 2012

i personally believe that yes if we apply the right efforts we can but you may not realise how enlightened you actuallyt are unless you are beng especially mindful. I have recently realised the first dtep and probably the biggest step to becoming enlightened is gettin to know who 'you' really are and accept and love who you are. Once you have a 'clean calm interior' if you catch my drift you can follow the buddhist path with full dedication. Hope this helps.

Much LOve

Citta · October 2012

2500 years ago The Buddha said that life all sentient life was characterised by three "signs", three qualities. Dukkha, Anatta, Annicca. If that were to be modifiable to any real degree by technology, or by a " new age " then the Buddha would have been wrong.
The reality is that in 2500 years time all life will still be characterised by Dukkha. Anatta, and Anicca.
Dukkha will just take some different forms.

lobster · October 2012

How will Buddhism change and become redundant?

The ability to induce mind states, the ability to integrate with AI and the capacity to choose 'living in the moment' or as a different gender or species will take a while to emerge and become mainstream.
Buddhism based around an unsatisfactory or dukkha inspired teaching will become less prevalent as happiness becomes part of social engineering. If your life is good, very good, why would you wish to do anything but live and enjoy . . .
At the moment we need Dharma, because all of us are little more than monkeys. We may evolve and require a corresponding development of religion and mysticism . . .

Let us at least believe we can move beyond Dharma - bring on the Maitreya . . .

Citta · October 2012

You have drastically and radically misunderstood the nature of Dukkha.

lobster said:
How will Buddhism change and become redundant?

The ability to induce mind states, the ability to integrate with AI and the capacity to choose 'living in the moment' or as a different gender or species will take a while to emerge and become mainstream.
Buddhism based around an unsatisfactory or dukkha inspired teaching will become less prevalent as happiness becomes part of social engineering. If your life is good, very good, why would you wish to do anything but live and enjoy . . .
At the moment we need Dharma, because all of us are little more than monkeys. We may evolve and require a corresponding development of religion and mysticism . . .

Let us at least believe we can move beyond Dharma - bring on the Maitreya . . .

Citta · October 2012

Dukkha does not arise in isolation. Dukkha arises with, and is interconnected to, Anicca and Anatta. The ultimate cause of Dukkha is Anicca and Anatta. No amount of social engineering or technological change will alter that, indeed technological and social change are further proof of Anicca.
And no amount of "progress " will furnish us with an atta.
You need to pay attention to some basic Buddhadharma instead of substituting a DIY credo.

DairyLama · October 2012

Citta said:
The ultimate cause of Dukkha is Anicca and Anatta.

I thought it was ignorance?

Songhill · October 2012

Citta:

The ultimate cause of suffering is "the desire, indulgence, inclination, and holding based on these five aggregates affected by clinging is the origination of suffering" (M. i. 191).

You're right that "no amount of social engineering or technological change" will alter the cause of suffering. Only eliminating the cause of suffering will work which means that we have to transcend the five aggregates which are anattâ; which also belong to Mara the Evil One.

Right now, modern man is so materialistic and hedonistic there is almost zero chance that enlightenment is attainable. Everyone clings to their psycho-physical body as if it is the true refuge, which is crazy.

DairyLama · October 2012

lobster said:
At the moment we need Dharma, because all of us are little more than monkeys.

It would be nice to think that one day we could be more than monkeys, but I'm not holding my breath.

Citta · October 2012

PedanticPorpoise said:

Citta said:
The ultimate cause of Dukkha is Anicca and Anatta.

I thought it was ignorance?

Yes, but not ignorance in abstract. Ignorance of the causes of Dukkha which are clinging to that which by nature is constantly changing, and ignorance of the fact that we have no unchanging element. The ignorance which commences D.O. has no inherent existance.

Citta · October 2012

Songhill said:
Citta:

The ultimate cause of suffering is "the desire, indulgence, inclination, and holding based on these five aggregates affected by clinging is the origination of suffering" (M. i. 191).

You're right that "no amount of social engineering or technological change" will alter the cause of suffering. Only eliminating the cause of suffering will work which means that we have to transcend the five aggregates which are anattâ; which also belong to Mara the Evil One.
Right now, modern man is so materialistic and hedonistic there is almost zero chance that enlightenment is attainable. Everyone clings to their psycho-physical body as if it is the true refuge, which is crazy.

There is no need to reify a mythological figure to understand the nature of Dharma.
And Dzogchen teachings ( and possibly Zen in some forms ) say that properly understood the psycho-physical body can indeed be the true refuge.

how · October 2012

I'd join you all on the path to the cessation of suffering just as soon finish that next banana.

Songhill · October 2012

Citta:

There is no need to reify a mythological figure to understand the nature of Dharma. And Dzogchen teachings ( and possibly Zen in some forms ) say that properly understood the psycho-physical body can indeed be the true refuge.

Mara, helps drive home the point that the psycho-physical body that worldly persons are presently engaged with, at this moment, is really evil, ergo, it can't be a true refuge.

By means of true Dzogchen as opposed to false, heretical Dozogchen, we realize that the five aggregates are just configurations of pure Mind (the primordial substance); the aggregates don't fundamentally exist. This is otherwise called the transformation of the five aggregates into the five Buddha's etc.

To realize that the Buddha has no form is to transform the aggregate of form/rupa into Vairochana Buddha. To realize that the Buddha has no feeling/vedana is to transform feeling into Ratnasambhava Buddha, and so on.

Citta · October 2012

Clearly I had better take my heretical Dzogchen view elsewhere then ..so long.
Good luck with your battle with your " evil " psycho-physical body Songhill.

Jason · October 2012

FairyFeller said:
I'm still very new to Buddhism and have been do a lot of reading from various sources and have read about quite a few different schools. One supposedly enlightened one claimed he would go ahead and set up a plain of existence where we would all go if we believed in him where we would automatically learn the secret to enlightenment. Another one where if we say the name of another enlightened one we would move to an enlightened existence when we die.

If the cycle of rebirth or reincarnation continues does it go on until we ourselves become enlightened? As time is effectively finite what happens to us if we don't become enlightened in time?

Different traditions have different ideas about this. In the Pali Canon, for example, there are two places where this is addressed that I'm aware of. The first is AN 10.95, where Uttiya the wanderer, after asking a number of other metaphysical questions, asks the Buddha if all the world will reach release, or a half of it, or a third. In this instance, the Buddha remains silent, and Ananda gives an analogy to explain the Buddha's silence:

"Uttiya, suppose that there were a royal frontier fortress with strong ramparts, strong walls & arches, and a single gate. In it would be a wise, competent, & knowledgeable gatekeeper to keep out those he didn't know and to let in those he did. Patrolling the path around the city, he wouldn't see a crack or an opening in the walls big enough for even a cat to slip through. Although he wouldn't know that 'So-and-so many creatures enter or leave the city,' he would know this: 'Whatever large creatures enter or leave the city all enter or leave it through this gate.'

"In the same way, the Tathagata isn't concerned with whether all the cosmos or half of it or a third of it will be led to release by means of that [Dhamma]. But he does know this: 'All those who have been led, are being led, or will be led [to release] from the cosmos have done so, are doing so, or will do so after having abandoned the five hindrances — those defilements of awareness that weaken discernment — having well-established their minds in the four frames of reference, and having developed, as they have come to be, the seven factors for Awakening. When you asked the Blessed One this question, you had already asked it in another way. That's why he didn't respond."

The second reference is in the Questions of King Milinda, a later work that's included in the Khuddaka Nikaya of the Burmese edition of Pali Canon, but not in Thai or Sri Lankan versions. Here, King Milinda asks whether everyone attains nibbana, to which the Ven. Nagasena (an arahant who's thought to have lived some time around 150 BCE) responds:

“Not all, O king; but whoever conducts himself rightly, understands what should be understood, perceives what should be perceived, abandons what should be abandoned, develops what should be developed and realises what should be realised; he attains nibbāna.”

Jeffrey · October 2012

AI is composed of parts, thus it will decay and is not a refuge.

Cinorjer · October 2012

For enlightenment to sweep the world, people would have to change who they are in a fundamental way. From childhood, we are hardwired to develop desires and cravings and experience a full range of emotions such as anger and jealousy. While we also can develop compassion and empathy, the ability to strike out and act on our selfish cravings remains.

There will never be a utopia that includes human beings such as you and I. Social engineering and intrusive changes to our minds from birth would be necessary, the stuff of nightmarish science fiction. A lobotimized population would lack selfish desires and look enlightened. Individualism would have to be extinguished. Is that what we want when we talk about enlightenment for everyone?

What would an enlightened society look like? Would it be one huge cult, with everyone doing what they are told by their superiors? Or would it be like a commune, where everyone "Does their own thing, man, long as it doesn't involve anything I don't like to do. Get someone else to take out the trash."

PrairieGhost · October 2012

Of course you can't see how utopia will look: we're still working on it.

zenff · October 2012

I don't know how you people paste pictures.
But "seven of nine" is how I imagine the collective-buddhist of the future to look like

http://www.yesodweb.com/static/7of9.jpg

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