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How does Buddhism explain the source of suffering?
karasti
BreathingMinnesota Moderator
Today at my Sangha meeting, one of our members posed a question none of us knew the answer to. She got really frustrated to the point of interrupting people and repeating her question over and over again. People would add their thoughts and she'd stop them and say "I KNOW that but that doesn't explain where suffering comes from."
She talked about the story of Adam and Eve taking the fruit from the tree of knowledge and how that is the source of pain and suffering. If you ask a Christian leader why humans suffer, that is generally something that is brought up. That we suffer because Adam and Eve ate from the tree when they were told not to.
The lady wanted to know if there is a comparable explanation, myth, story or whatever in Buddhism. She wants to know how Buddhism explains why we suffer. She seems to believe that primitive cultures were more pure, closer to the earth, they didn't have the addictions and delusions we have now, and she wants to know how we lost that to become so deep in Samsara doo-doo. It seemed to me that renunciation is what she was going for, but she seems to feel it's not possible in our world. It kind of seems to me like she is asking a question that doesn't have an answer, and she got really frustrated with that as an answer. We discussed it for an hour, and every response from her was "no, I know that, that is not what I'm asking." Finally our group leader said he would pose the question to our teacher, and to the lama who is visiting next weekend and see what they say.
It got to be a rather confusing go around, but I thought I'd ask if anyone here has insight. How does Buddhism explain, if it does, where suffering initially arose and how we got torn away from our purer ways (in her opinion) to live in the world we do now with as much suffering and delusion? Does Buddhism have anything in it's texts that explains whether people had some sort of downfall as Christianity does?
She talked about the story of Adam and Eve taking the fruit from the tree of knowledge and how that is the source of pain and suffering. If you ask a Christian leader why humans suffer, that is generally something that is brought up. That we suffer because Adam and Eve ate from the tree when they were told not to.
The lady wanted to know if there is a comparable explanation, myth, story or whatever in Buddhism. She wants to know how Buddhism explains why we suffer. She seems to believe that primitive cultures were more pure, closer to the earth, they didn't have the addictions and delusions we have now, and she wants to know how we lost that to become so deep in Samsara doo-doo. It seemed to me that renunciation is what she was going for, but she seems to feel it's not possible in our world. It kind of seems to me like she is asking a question that doesn't have an answer, and she got really frustrated with that as an answer. We discussed it for an hour, and every response from her was "no, I know that, that is not what I'm asking." Finally our group leader said he would pose the question to our teacher, and to the lama who is visiting next weekend and see what they say.
It got to be a rather confusing go around, but I thought I'd ask if anyone here has insight. How does Buddhism explain, if it does, where suffering initially arose and how we got torn away from our purer ways (in her opinion) to live in the world we do now with as much suffering and delusion? Does Buddhism have anything in it's texts that explains whether people had some sort of downfall as Christianity does?
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People who practice Buddhism know this.
In more detail, it is not understanding suffering and how craving leads to suffering, that creates more suffering for ourselves. If we are too greedy for a hot soup, we burn our mouth. Some people burn their mouth every time they eat, others quickly learn. Four noble truths right there. The second one explains the source of suffering: craving caused by ignorance.
I'm sure somebody must have said something along those lines. If that's not the answer she wants to hear, so be it. What can you do? Not much. Some people don't like to hear they are the source of their own problems and want to blame some outside thing. Just like in an argument, people always blame the other. Or they blame the soup for being hot. That's the way people are.
Metta!
Sabre
We can use the story of Adam & Eve too - the snake's ability to seduce them into eating the fruit with the promise of god-like wisdom shows that they desired to be more than what they were. Not only that, but the appearance of the fruit was "pleasureable to the eye" and that contributed to "the Fall" as well.
It'd be very difficult for me to believe that there were no such things as jealously, selfishness, unchecked desire, etc in our ancestors' societies. I guess it can be argued that all the problems started when our ancestors began to create divisions of labour and hierarchies where some members of the community had more than others due to their position or whatever. If you're alone or even in a small group that's focused simply on surviving, there's not much drama to be had I wouldn't think.
But this is all speculation.
She talked about how when we are born we are so pure and we pick up all those cultural sufferings as we grow up. She seemed to have some hangups on a "it sucks that we lost our purity and I wish we could go back." She doesn't want to have to plod through the suffering to get back to what we should be from the beginning. She seems to believe at one point in our history, we lived these really pure lives. And that somewhere along the way we lost it (Adam and Eve) and she wants to know how Buddhism explains that we lost it to begin with. I'm not convinced we ever had it as an entire race.
I think she believes things about primitive cultures that aren't really true. They suffer, too. True they don't have the same problems we do, but we also can largely start to investigate these things because we don't have to worry about the things they do. She thinks they live fully in the present with no worries about tomorrow, and I think that's wrong. Pretty sure they worry how they will survive day to day and get food for their kids for the next week and survive monsoon seasons, and so on. When you have to worry about how you are going to eat and move your shelter, you don't get the time to consider the deeper questions.
On a side note: Even before Eve ate the forbidden fruit, surely Adam must have suffered when God took a rib out of his body?... Must have hurt quite a bit.
I think personally she's looking for an answer that doesn't exist. I think she is looking to compare to vastly different things: Buddhism and Christian bible stories.
But yes, Invincible_Summer is right. She wants to know at what point we went from pure people to deep in the doo-doo people. I don't think that point in time exists, like someone else mentioned I think we've always been there, just in different ways based on our lives and cultures of the time. It's just not so simple as "well, the Buddha told his monks that once upon a time Man X had been born pure and did something to become unpure, sending the human race spiraling into samsara."
Could be. But I do not know what was said. If nobody said anything about the noble truths, and she didn't know about them, perhaps she was just looking in the wrong direction because of thait.
But yeah, it seems like what you said - to find some sort of beginning point. But even the Buddha could not see the beginning of samsara. It doesn't matter anyway, because the question shouldn't be "what was the beginning of suffering?", but it should be "what sustains suffering?".
@karasti
Let's for argument sake say it began with Adam and Eve.. than even Buddhist's wouldn't really care because you can't change the past. So it started there, great.. but it is still here now. What can we do now? If my house is on fire, the first thing I do is trying to get it out, instead of finding out where the fire started.
Nirvana has no end but it has a beginning.
She's a really knowledgeable lady and I think there was a lot of frustration on her part when we didn't seem to fully understand what she was asking. But in the end it came down to her wanting a comparable answer to the Adam and Eve story. I wanted to ask her why it mattered, since we are supposed to focus on the present anyhow, but I was getting a little irritated with her tone of voice and I didn't want to get snarky so I just sat quietly, lol.
But anyway, very often the wisest response is to remain silent and I think you did well. Maybe you can show her this thread or something.
Metta!
Sabre
This ties directly into the Kalama Sutta too--because the possession of information in and of itself is inadequate to deal with suffering. You have to start where you are, right here, rather than pining away for some imagined paradise to escape to. That pining away for ________ IS vexation itself.
Just like reading Aesop's Fables, the point of the story is not that foxes, rabbits, tortoises and lions talk--they illustrate something about human nature here and now.
So, at least from some Christian traditions, Eden is not really an empirically causal explanation either.
With the dawning of consciousness came the desire for the world to be something other than what it is, and suffering was born. There was never a golden age of enlightenment, we never fell from grace, never lost our innocence because we were never in a state of grace or innocent. Suffering exists because we exist. This is what makes Buddhism different from religions that claim suffering is punishment for our sins.
It's not up to you, to find an answer she will accept. It's up to her, to accept the answer Buddhism provides, or not. This is the foundation of the Noble Truths.
A downfall carries an assumption of grandeur.
The first thing a baby does is cry.
Anyways, I think we each develop our own ideas when it comes to things like the origins of suffering. Personally, I believe it is because of our clinging to dualistic conceptualizations of reality, however I may be wrong. lol That doesn't change the first noble truth, "there is suffering". Whether we can pin point the origin of it or not, it's still there. It still needs to be dealt with. Our minds still need to change.
http://www.lorenwebster.net/In_a_Dark_Time/2011/01/18/the-buddhist-beginningless-universe/
I guess I don't really look to find an answer for her, but more so out of the feelings that developed within the group (which we could all feel) because of the misunderstanding that was going on and her interrupting. It was just unsettling because we don't usually experience those vast chasms within our group and my thoughts were swirling about it. I appreciate all of your responses, it helped for sure.
Why does beginningless mind, which is ultimately pure and unchanging in essence, give rise to a state of ignorance in contrast to its essence? I think that is the question your friend might ultimately be seeking an answer to.
I'm not a Buddhist, but perhaps one could say that both the physical and mental aspects of the universe both have a beginningless continuum, and are naturally occurring. The continuum of the mind we are referring to is the activity of experience. As an aside, the Anthropic Principle suggests a theory that the universe is meant to be observed or experienced.
The coming into existence of beings are the results of the general law of causality. Karma is an instance of the general law of causality, and requires an agent and intention. It becomes significant when it affects experience therefore the origin of suffering lies in both karma and ignorance. Is karma a contributing factor for all beings coming into existence it appears the answer would be no. Is it for human beings then the answer would appear to be yes as it affects their experiences.
In a nut shell there comes a point in the existence of beings where karma and ignorance and resulting suffering occurs and has an influence. According to Carl Jung human consciousness has developed over time as an aspect of what he calls the primordial unconscious, not to be confused with states of loss of consciousness though.
Read the Heart Sutra.
Enlightenment (according to the Heart Sutra) is waking up to the emptiness of suffering and of the four noble truths alike.
"We are actually very resistant to this reality. We hate it because it is too simple and we persistently think we need more. This is not a detail or quirk of our minds; it is not even a habit really; it is the deep nature of our minds. The Sanskrit word for consciousness is vijnana, which means to divide, or to cut. In order for us to have what we call experience we have to divide or cut reality. Genuine or all-rightness is wholeness, indivisibility, so it can’t be an experience." ~Zoketsu Norman Fisher, ‘A Coin Lost in the River is Found in the River,’ from The Art of Just Sitting: The Essential Writings on the Zen Practice of Shikantaza (edited by John Daido Loori)
Little story from the platform sutra of the 6th patriarch.
Hui Neng then came out and sat cross-legged on a
rock. Hui Ming made obeisance and said, “I hope that the
Cultivator will teach the Dharma for my sake.”
Hui Neng said, “Since you have come for the Dharma,
you may put aside all conditions. Do not give rise to a
single thought and I will teach it to you clearly.” After a
time, Hui Neng said, “With no thoughts of good and with
no thoughts of evil, at just this moment, what is Superior
One Hui Ming’s original face?” At these words, Hui Ming
was greatly enlightened
It should be understood that the Buddha did not preach all that he knew. On one occasion while the Buddha was passing through a forest he took a handful of leaves and said: "O bhikkhus, what I have taught is comparable to the leaves in my hand. What I have not taught is comparable to the amount of leaves in the forest."
He taught what he deemed was absolutely essential for one's purification making no distinction between an esoteric and exoteric doctrine. He was characteristically silent on questions irrelevant to his noble mission.
http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell02.htm
If you want stories, go to story tellers.
:coffee:
My question is (and I mean this in a genuinely compassionate way): Why is this answer so important to her? Where is this insistence coming from within her life? It sounds to me like the resolution she wants comes from something eating away at her inside. This isn't mere curiosity--this is a cry.
There is nothing wrong with that--that is just what dukkha is. If she could somehow be directed toward the source of her question (which is a kind of cry for help) she might see that she has to begin with herself rather than looking 'out there' for a solution to her own suffering.
The good thing is that she is aware of dukkha. She just needs to look within rather than externally to find the solution to her pain.
After eating of that tree God returns and seeing that Adam and Eve have clothed themselves He asks "who taught you to be ashamed?".
Clearly Adam have become 'self-aware' (hence shame of their nakedness.)
This story of humanity's burgeoning self-awareness (and the trials and suffering that ensue as a result) is a very Buddhist story.
Unless we had eaten of that Tree we wouldn't be what we are today - beings capable of promoting Good and demoting Evil through our own Free Will.
Which is all Shakyamuni ever asked of us.
We can't avoid mandalas. They are everywhere. But we can put the nature of mind as the center rather than republican or democrat or Buddhist or whatever. Being in tune with the mandala means you will not stumble. You have a form of balance like balancing on a rocking boat. Sometimes the mandalas are at odds like the ego mandala and practice mandala. That produces strong feeling; for example in the clash of ego and practice we might have feelings of worry that something bad would happen if we just let go and whole heartedly practiced so we change and the boat is more rocking for awhile.
'A man will be imprisoned in a room with a door that’s unlocked and opens inwards; as long as it does not occur to him to pull rather than push it.'
~Ludwig Wittgenstein
When awareness started, the thoughts start.
Even though she seems a little angry from you not being able to give her an answer. I think just from being around a lama and the dharma and the diamond perfection of wisdom sutra somewhere in your center, she got some good karma seeds from it and I don't think she knows it yet.
I think she wants definitions and form over emptiness and formlessness.
So giving her answer will be hard, heck even I can't fully understand emptiness yet.
*raises right hand*
Now, that was some serious truth, right there!