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i agree. but there wasn't any condensed, dumbed down, bullet point prensentation that made me want to study dharma. it was my experience that drew me to it. writing helps to organize experience. if it is dictacting experience, then the writing has become propaganda or dogmatic and it can only cause more road blocks.
and if it has miraculously made it 2500 years to get into my hands, why do you think it needs to be adjusted? seems like its working quite well as it has been for two and a half millenia, right?
It has been adjusted. Do you read Dharma books in Sanskrit? Why else would it be translated into English except to benefit you? Does every Dharma book you read contain all 84,000 teachings? No, most Dharma books we read in the west have been adjusted to the western mind and western experience... even 'dumbed down' if you wish to see it like that. And why are their so many different traditions and branches within Buddhism? Because the Buddha's teachings have been adjusted to meet various requirements. The Buddha himself taught us not to follow him blindly but to question his teachings, experiment with them, and find what works for us. Well, 2500 years after he shared his insights, we live in a very different world with very different needs, very different problems, and very different opportunities to share the Dharma. We have the good fortune to have incredible teachings only a Google search away, and we embrace it fully. Things change. We must change with them. Impermanence. Do not cling on to the ways things were. It won't work. Buddha taught exactly that. And if this forum is a fair reflection of modern Buddhism, then it is in a very limp and uninspired phase.
another good point by you, @mindatrisk. i like you. i like your enthusiasm. i like your attempts to respond to every single post in the threads that you start. but i don't share the personal responsibilty of helping everyone, because i know that i can not do it. i wonder if anyone can? i really don't know. but i do know that i have tried, and i know that it burned me out terribly. i am still picking up the pieces of that burn out collapse. those pieces always turn the finger back on me. can i help people ? yes. but am i ever done with me? nope. i try to use that as my humbling factor. its how to keep my beginner's mind from tricking me into thinking that i have anyone's answer for them. i can't even imagine trying to do what you are suggesting, and i have a wonderful imagination. so, i wish you luck. but don't lose sight of your next step in favor of looking far down the path. you might miss something useful.
Make a strong social mandala (as you are) to spread your message. But it's true at the same time to make your message as true to the teachings as you can manage. For example others have already gone before you and done this task. You can get inspiration from the lives of the bodhisattvas. I think there are books with such accounts. Speak truthful. Let go of the senses and renounce.
Since I started meditating and being interested in Buddhism (and Christianity, Islam, etc.), people sometimes say things to me like, "why don't you ever get angry?" and "why are you being so nice to me?" and "he's a jerk, why would you do that for him?"
When asked, sometimes, if it feels right, I'll explain why I live the way that I do. I never, never try to convert anyone; if they find the topic interesting, they are free to research it themselves.
Do you, @mindatrisk, feel that you are doing the same thing, but virtually? I haven't had a chance to look at your links, and I wouldn't want to judge your intentions, anyway.
I wouldn't say so. I target a traditionally spiritually skeptical / reluctant audience like a business forum, I choose a subject that they can relate to like anger, and then I discuss it from a Dharma perspective, i.e. the issues that arise from anger, how we can develop a peaceful mind, and so on. This works on a simple information / idea sharing level for those interested in wishing to discuss, but also on a secondary level which is that by targeting a skeptical audience I attract attack, abuse and ridicule, and as such create for myself the opportunity to demonstrate my example - all be it in a limited format - which is where the real power lies and where people can really be influenced. The link I shared is a limited example because, sadly, no-one really attacked and so the chance to be all lovely and peaceful in response didn't arise. Alas, I might need to make future opening posts a little bit more provocative.
Since I started meditating and being interested in Buddhism (and Christianity, Islam, etc.), people sometimes say things to me like, "why don't you ever get angry?" and "why are you being so nice to me?" and "he's a jerk, why would you do that for him?"
When asked, sometimes, if it feels right, I'll explain why I live the way that I do. I never, never try to convert anyone; if they find the topic interesting, they are free to research it themselves.
...
Yes, exactly, and that it was Buddhist monks in Thailand recommended to me. I have never on my own volition talked about Buddhism, but never made it a secret, either. I will discuss with anyone who asks, and I have agreed to take people to the local temple...even if it is just out of well-intentioned curiosity.
As i've said, this is not about converting, it's simply about giving people the option.
another good point by you, @mindatrisk. i like you. i like your enthusiasm. i like your attempts to respond to every single post in the threads that you start. but i don't share the personal responsibilty of helping everyone, because i know that i can not do it. i wonder if anyone can? i really don't know. but i do know that i have tried, and i know that it burned me out terribly. i am still picking up the pieces of that burn out collapse. those pieces always turn the finger back on me. can i help people ? yes. but am i ever done with me? nope. i try to use that as my humbling factor. its how to keep my beginner's mind from tricking me into thinking that i have anyone's answer for them. i can't even imagine trying to do what you are suggesting, and i have a wonderful imagination. so, i wish you luck. but don't lose sight of your next step in favor of looking far down the path. you might miss something useful.
EVERYONE can. Everyone. Honestly. Your intent is everything. Begin with the singular intent to do all that you can with your lifetime to help others, and then allow the path to unfold before you. The key is to simply do the best that you can at any given moment. There is no requirement to be burnt out. Rest is as important as action. But what you will find is that when you dedicate fully to helping others that life will provide you with the tools that you need to help you. For example, I eat a raw vegan diet, I do yoga, I fast, I am celibate, I do long periods in silence, I meditate, I run, I take cold showers, etc. etc. All of these things enable me to help others, and all of these tools have entered my life at the appropriate time to further enable me as my desire and ability to help more has expanded and deepened.
So, don't worry about whether you think you can live like this right now based on your current circumstances because you are probably not at anywhere near your optimal best. You have endless potential and endless means within you, and the only thing that stands in the way are your own - and I say this in the very nicest most respectful way - ignorant ideas about you. You can do everything that a Buddha or a Christ can do, but do you believe that? And are you willing to step onto the path and allow it to be paved one step at a time in full trust that it will be there with each step and it will support you with each step?
And remember, none of this is about giving someone else their answer - that is not possible. This is about giving them the awareness that they already their own answers. I appreciate your kind, supportive words and your gentle guidance. Peace be with you.
Thank you very much! I will do. I'm so happy that I found out about this movement. It is exactly as I had been thinking about Buddhism, but I had no idea that so many others were already doing it. It's wonderful. Thank you.
Make a strong social mandala (as you are) to spread your message. But it's true at the same time to make your message as true to the teachings as you can manage. For example others have already gone before you and done this task. You can get inspiration from the lives of the bodhisattvas. I think there are books with such accounts. Speak truthful. Let go of the senses and renounce.
If you, or anyone else, can recommend a book then that would be great. I love reading inspirational accounts - not just accounts but peoples lives too, but i'm a bit limited to all the obvious great famous people like Gandhi, Mandela, Ron Atkinson etc. What is a mandala, please?
Since I started meditating and being interested in Buddhism (and Christianity, Islam, etc.), people sometimes say things to me like, "why don't you ever get angry?" and "why are you being so nice to me?" and "he's a jerk, why would you do that for him?"
When asked, sometimes, if it feels right, I'll explain why I live the way that I do. I never, never try to convert anyone; if they find the topic interesting, they are free to research it themselves.
Do you, @mindatrisk, feel that you are doing the same thing, but virtually? I haven't had a chance to look at your links, and I wouldn't want to judge your intentions, anyway.
I wouldn't say so. I target a traditionally spiritually skeptical / reluctant audience like a business forum, I choose a subject that they can relate to like anger, and then I discuss it from a Dharma perspective, i.e. the issues that arise from anger, how we can develop a peaceful mind, and so on. This works on a simple information / idea sharing level for those interested in wishing to discuss, but also on a secondary level which is that by targeting a skeptical audience I attract attack, abuse and ridicule, and as such create for myself the opportunity to demonstrate my example - all be it in a limited format - which is where the real power lies and where people can really be influenced. The link I shared is a limited example because, sadly, no-one really attacked and so the chance to be all lovely and peaceful in response didn't arise. Alas, I might need to make future opening posts a little bit more provocative.
In an earlier post, below, you suggested that people were judging your intent unfairly by their own interpretation of your words without the benefit of knowing your actions in real life. And further to that you said that you had mistaken Maryanne's tone because " that really is not something I can know". In your post above, you have inferred that you can deduce from another's words, their emotional state, and then prove your own spiritual development by not reacting with hostility to ridicule and abuse. So it seems that you are assuming that your audience is naive enough to believe that your online attitude is proof of your development, while you are accepting that their online anger is proof of their lack of development.
^^ I'm not upset, at all. Why do so many people think a disagreement means someone is "upset"? But I do believe you're not being honest - with yourself - or anyone else. This seems to be some sort of covert ego trip for you.... And I'll say no more.
My apologies, the tone of your reply seemed somewhat agitated, but that really is not something I can know, so sorry if I mistook that.
As for my motives... Who knows? It is between me and my heart. If I am on some covert ego trip then I guess the karma will sort me out sooner or later. I understand some concerns some people have, and I understand the questions that arise, but I truly believe your conclusion is faulty... alas, my life will prove me right or wrong. We shall see! I've really appreciated your thoughts here though. I'm always open to questions and criticism, but I do think that on a forum like this people need to be given the benefit of the doubt. It is very difficult to judge someone based upon some words on a screen. If you met me in person, looked in my eyes, observed my behaviour, and then concluded that I was dishonest, egotistical etc. then maybe that is a bit fairer, but coming to those conclusions on here like this kind of just reinforces the comments i've just made about these forums.
I don't think that you can have it both ways. And I think that I am more convinced than ever that Maryanne was correct when she said that your approach is "manipulative and odd". I don't think your approach can work because it is your stated intent to be manipulative, which might work in a setting where your audience has no choice but accept that you are being truthful, like if you were teaching small children. Or if you were a recognized teacher. Here on the Internet, with a largely Internet savvy audience, you are going to need to find a way to be more credible than you have been so far. Maybe with more practice.
Mindatrisk, if this thread is anything to judge by, I doubt your efforts will do much to advance the dharma. You seem unwilling to even consider other points of view. Why would anyone listen to you when you won't listen to them? I am even less convinced by your argument now than I was before.
And I can't help wondering why you are wasting precious time arguing with us here instead of getting on with the task. You start thread after thread asking for ideas and approval and react rudely when anyone voices doubt. If you don't want our opinions why do you keep asking for them?
Mindatrisk, if this thread is anything to judge by, I doubt your efforts will do much to advance the dharma. You seem unwilling to even consider other points of view. Why would anyone listen to you when you won't listen to them? I am even less convinced by your argument now than I was before.
And I can't help wondering why you are wasting precious time arguing with us here instead of getting on with the task. You start thread after thread asking for ideas and approval and react rudely when anyone voices doubt. If you don't want our opinions why do you keep asking for them?
I am ready to conclude that he is, 'using' is to harsh of a word, considering us in the same way that he sees his business friends. As a sounding board to strike against in order to hear his own voice saying things that reaffirm his image of himself. Same as me I guess.
"For example, I make it a rule to never reply to a line of attack. A further rule is to find a good point they made, recognise it, and respond thoughtfully to it. This discourages attack, and encourages thinking."
"For example, I make it a rule to never reply to a line of attack. A further rule is to find a good point they made, recognise it, and respond thoughtfully to it. This discourages attack, and encourages thinking."
Well, you gave me nothing to work with! Haha. I tease. Fair point. What I wrote sounded much more abrupt than it was intended. It probably needed a big grin or a wink or something. I just thought your comment was amusing... not in a bad way, I get what you were saying, it was just a funny sentence, you know? I didn't mean to sound that abrupt with you. I'm sorry.
Mindatrisk, if this thread is anything to judge by, I doubt your efforts will do much to advance the dharma. You seem unwilling to even consider other points of view. Why would anyone listen to you when you won't listen to them? I am even less convinced by your argument now than I was before.
And I can't help wondering why you are wasting precious time arguing with us here instead of getting on with the task. You start thread after thread asking for ideas and approval and react rudely when anyone voices doubt. If you don't want our opinions why do you keep asking for them?
I am ready to conclude that he is, 'using' is to harsh of a word, considering us in the same way that he sees his business friends. As a sounding board to strike against in order to hear his own voice saying things that reaffirm his image of himself. Same as me I guess.
To be honest, i'm going with the flow. My honest feeling is that if this forum is a true reflection of modern western Buddhism then Buddhism is in a very sorry state and is deeply misunderstood and misrepresented. I don't consider anyone as anything. I wish only to benefit others, but that isn't as simple as just trying to be all lovely and pleasant to everyone, as i'm sure you agree.
I really like the insight i've highlighted in bold. It's not so much about my image of myself, but more about my imaging of myself, or how i'm creating myself. I'm curious to find ways to help people more efficiently and more effectively. Within that i'll make mistakes, but those mistakes are helpful too. For example, if someone feels i've been rude then that would seem to be a mistake given my stated intentions, but it also gives me a chance to apologise and acknowledge my mistake with humility, which is a good thing. Anyway, I like that insight, but whereas you maybe consider it a bad thing, I see it as a beautiful thing... I mean, why stick with who you are when you have countless ways to develop, create, and express yourself in news ways. I am certainly doing exactly that on these forums and taking due note of what works and what doesn't.
Mindatrisk, if this thread is anything to judge by, I doubt your efforts will do much to advance the dharma. You seem unwilling to even consider other points of view. Why would anyone listen to you when you won't listen to them? I am even less convinced by your argument now than I was before.
And I can't help wondering why you are wasting precious time arguing with us here instead of getting on with the task. You start thread after thread asking for ideas and approval and react rudely when anyone voices doubt. If you don't want our opinions why do you keep asking for them?
I am ready to conclude that he is, 'using' is to harsh of a word, considering us in the same way that he sees his business friends. As a sounding board to strike against in order to hear his own voice saying things that reaffirm his image of himself. Same as me I guess.
To be honest, i'm going with the flow. My honest feeling is that if this forum is a true reflection of modern western Buddhism then Buddhism is in a very sorry state and is deeply misunderstood and misrepresented. I don't consider anyone as anything. I wish only to benefit others, but that isn't as simple as just trying to be all lovely and pleasant to everyone, as i'm sure you agree.
No need to exaggerate. Surely you read threads here other than the ones you create. So you know that there are people here who have dedicated many years to Buddhism and have deep understanding and insight. Why tar everyone with the same brush? And please don't assume that because you think that you understand Buddhism and what you see here doesn't fit with your view, that western Buddhism is in bad shape. It's really just an underhanded insult to some individuals. Do you have any understanding of what eastern Buddhism is like?
Mindatrisk, if this thread is anything to judge by, I doubt your efforts will do much to advance the dharma. You seem unwilling to even consider other points of view. Why would anyone listen to you when you won't listen to them? I am even less convinced by your argument now than I was before.
And I can't help wondering why you are wasting precious time arguing with us here instead of getting on with the task. You start thread after thread asking for ideas and approval and react rudely when anyone voices doubt. If you don't want our opinions why do you keep asking for them?
I listen to that which is worth listening to! As we all do. There have been some wonderful points made in this thread, and i've acknowledged them as and when they have been shared. Have you not seen? At the same time, I think there have been some poor points of view, but then there seems to be plenty here who dismiss my views as poor! I have absolutely no desire to convince anyone of anything. Time will tell whether there is method in my apparent madness!
I have wasted no time here whatsoever. This thread has been of wonderful use to me, and i've appreciated every contribution as they have all helped me to understand my thoughts a little bit more. I love to hear your opinions, I just don't agree with some of them, as you don't agree with mine. If you don't like my thoughts then don't read my thoughts!
I have absolutely no desire to convince anyone of anything.
And yet you are still arguing.
It's purely selfish. I've learnt too much from this thread not to extract every last drop of insight from it. Whether I agree with you all or not, every time you comment, question, challenge, oppose etc. you help me to define my thoughts, and so I will persist until you are all fed up of me. Then i'll go.
No need to exaggerate. Surely you read threads here other than the ones you create. So you know that there are people here who have dedicated many years to Buddhism and have deep understanding and insight. Why tar everyone with the same brush? And please don't assume that because you think that you understand Buddhism and what you see here doesn't fit with your view, that western Buddhism is in bad shape. It's really just an underhanded insult to some individuals. Do you have any understanding of what eastern Buddhism is like?
Buddhism spuddhism. It doesn't matter. The Buddha died 2500 years ago. Yet he sits in you waiting to be alive again, and all you want to do is look everywhere but! It is funny.
Not sure what everyone else has said, but if you have advice to give to those who are asking, give it. If you identify a need in a community, satisfy it.
Altruism is a noble effort. Just make sure you listen at least twice the amount that you speak. Man has a funny way of seeing differences as problems and trying to fix these "problems".
No need to exaggerate. Surely you read threads here other than the ones you create. So you know that there are people here who have dedicated many years to Buddhism and have deep understanding and insight. Why tar everyone with the same brush? And please don't assume that because you think that you understand Buddhism and what you see here doesn't fit with your view, that western Buddhism is in bad shape. It's really just an underhanded insult to some individuals. Do you have any understanding of what eastern Buddhism is like?
Buddhism spuddhism. It doesn't matter. The Buddha died 2500 years ago. Yet he sits in you waiting to be alive again, and all you want to do is look everywhere but! It is funny.
There you go again making assumptions. A little more defensive this time. That's cool. We're human. When I was in my early 20's, before you were born by a stretch, I thought I had found something that others hadn't which was true, and that it was my job to tell them about it, uninvited, which wasn't true. Some people were in awe of my wisdom, poor fools. Others humoured me. I was the fool. Some folks just got pissed off. In any case it was a learning experience. One that I will not repeat. In this life anyway lol.
No need to exaggerate. Surely you read threads here other than the ones you create. So you know that there are people here who have dedicated many years to Buddhism and have deep understanding and insight. Why tar everyone with the same brush? And please don't assume that because you think that you understand Buddhism and what you see here doesn't fit with your view, that western Buddhism is in bad shape. It's really just an underhanded insult to some individuals. Do you have any understanding of what eastern Buddhism is like?
Buddhism spuddhism. It doesn't matter. The Buddha died 2500 years ago. Yet he sits in you waiting to be alive again, and all you want to do is look everywhere but! It is funny.
There you go again making assumptions. A little more defensive this time. That's cool. We're human. When I was in my early 20's, before you were born by a stretch, I thought I had found something that others hadn't which was true, and that it was my job to tell them about it, uninvited, which wasn't true. Some people were in awe of my wisdom, poor fools. Others humoured me. I was the fool. Some folks just got pissed off. In any case it was a learning experience. One that I will not repeat. In this life anyway lol.
I think our dialogue just ran out of steam! Thanks for your contributions.
I don't think that you can have it both ways. And I think that I am more convinced than ever that Maryanne was correct when she said that your approach is "manipulative and odd". I don't think your approach can work because it is your stated intent to be manipulative, which might work in a setting where your audience has no choice but accept that you are being truthful, like if you were teaching small children. Or if you were a recognized teacher. Here on the Internet, with a largely Internet savvy audience, you are going to need to find a way to be more credible than you have been so far. Maybe with more practice.
Of course it is manipulative. All communication is manipulative. Your reply here is an attempt to manipulate me to your point of view. When you smile at someone you attempt to manipulate them into feeling good. When you tell your children off you attempt to manipulate them into behaving properly. We are all manipulating each other all the time. Manipulation is not the issue, the issue is motivation. My motivation is pure, and my methods are specific for a time when a lot of humans need to wake up in a very short amount of time. These are unconventional means for a specific circumstance. This is evolution in progress. Evolution didn't stop with thumbs, and it didn't stop with the Buddha. There will always be resistance to new ideas, especially those which challenge the old guard, but the fact is that 2500 years of Buddhism has not created the world that humans are capable of. In fact, our problems are considerably worse. Hence new means are required. You may not see that now, you may not understand it now, you may not like it now, but have some patience, because it will all unfold in due time, and then you will see, and I think you will smile. It's not like I don't understand your perspective - I get it, but I am an appropriate solution given the problem we are all faced with.
What problem are we all faced with? Why do you think the world is the worst it has ever been ("our problems are the worst they have ever been")?
I consider myself to have very minimal problems and consider the world to be the best it has ever been. You make it seem like my life is very bad for some reason that I am not aware of.
What problem are we all faced with? Why do you think the world is the worst it has ever been ("our problems are the worst they have ever been")?
I consider myself to have very minimal problems and consider the world to be the best it has ever been. You make it seem like my life is very bad for some reason that I am not aware of.
Environmental issues, weapons of mass destruction, global manipulation of finances, a possible NWO type of structure... these are modern issues that humans have never been faced with. Our collective actions could lead to our own extinction. Never before have we had such potential for such extensive self harm. Likewise, we also have immense potential for collective growth. I know we will move into wonderful times, but it will only happen through our taking positive action, i.e. implementing new solutions to solve old problems. I am glad your life is good, but there are many experiencing incredible suffering, so i'd encourage you to look a bit beyond your own circumstances.
What problem are we all faced with? Why do you think the world is the worst it has ever been ("our problems are the worst they have ever been")?
I consider myself to have very minimal problems and consider the world to be the best it has ever been. You make it seem like my life is very bad for some reason that I am not aware of.
I agree, Yishai.
Yes, there are horrendous things going on in select places, some temporary, some long term. But when you look at oppression and plagues and world wars and gulags...etc, one should be able to see that despite all the problems, a larger percentage of people in the world are living better than before. I think part of the problem is that today, with various forms of media, we are able to see all the problems anywhere in the world instantly, while in the past you rarely even found out about such problems.
What problem are we all faced with? Why do you think the world is the worst it has ever been ("our problems are the worst they have ever been")?
I consider myself to have very minimal problems and consider the world to be the best it has ever been. You make it seem like my life is very bad for some reason that I am not aware of.
I agree, Yishai.
Yes, there are horrendous things going on in select places, some temporary, some long term. But when you look at oppression and plagues and world wars and gulags...etc, one should be able to see that despite all the problems, a larger percentage of people in the world are living better than before. I think part of the problem is that today, with various forms of media, we are able to see all the problems anywhere in the world instantly, while in the past you rarely even found out about such problems.
Whilst I agree with you, would you be saying the same thing if it was you and your children starving to death right now whilst a few billion westerners got fat? This is how I try to think about it. We are doing well as a species, definitely on the up, but that is no excuse for not working even harder to make things even better. From my point of view we should always measure our progress by how our most vulnerable and in need are looked after. By that measure we are doing poorly. However, our incredibly accelerated growth over the last 100 or so years should be celebrated. We are a species on the up, but only because as a species we have challenged old ways, confronted old problems, and made incredible efforts to grow. I say we continue.
I know there are problems the world over. I know I am blessed to have all the comforts that I do. There are initiatives out there already to alleviate hunger, poverty, and to help communities.
Global Hunger has decreased. Although there are some 900 million still in need of food. The high, sustained growth has led to rapid reduction in poverty. Although many of the countries which experienced a reduction in poverty are considered fragile and not stable.
I know there are problems the world over. I know I am blessed to have all the comforts that I do. There are initiatives out there already to alleviate hunger, poverty, and to help communities.
Global Hunger has decreased. Although there are some 900 million still in need of food. The high, sustained growth has led to rapid reduction in poverty. Although many of the countries which experienced a reduction in poverty are considered fragile and not stable.
I know there are problems the world over. I know I am blessed to have all the comforts that I do. There are initiatives out there already to alleviate hunger, poverty, and to help communities.
Global Hunger has decreased. Although there are some 900 million still in need of food. The high, sustained growth has led to rapid reduction in poverty. Although many of the countries which experienced a reduction in poverty are considered fragile and not stable.
I agree. We continue. Now what? Go do it.
This thread is the 'now what', this thread is the action. I came here to gather support for the flourishing of Dharma - the only means through which we can truly end suffering on this planet. We can all lend a hand and help one person, but if we share ideas then we can help millions. There is much to do, and it will take time, the solution is not simply 'go and do something', the doing must be intelligent, wise, effective, and efficient, and that requires thought, including discussion with others. Has always been so.
In an earlier post, below, you suggested that people were judging your intent unfairly by their own interpretation of your words without the benefit of knowing your actions in real life. And further to that you said that you had mistaken Maryanne's tone because " that really is not something I can know". In your post above, you have inferred that you can deduce from another's words, their emotional state, and then prove your own spiritual development by not reacting with hostility to ridicule and abuse. So it seems that you are assuming that your audience is naive enough to believe that your online attitude is proof of your development, while you are accepting that their online anger is proof of their lack of development.
I missed this section, sorry. I'm not at all concerned how anyone judges me - I know my intent, I don't need validation. What surprised me was the level of judgement being thrown around in a Buddhist forum.
It is true that I cannot know how another is speaking to me online, but I don't need to, because I would respond peacefully anyway, so if they hadn't attacked me then they'd receive peace, but if they had attacked me then they'd receive peace - I don't need to know whether they have attacked me or not, but if I maintain my peace at all times then if they have attacked me then maybe my peaceful response will have an impact on them. Does that make sense?
I think what it comes down to is what I said previously about simply overlooking any attack and responding as if no attack had occurred, instead trying to find something positive to focus on. I think a decent example is in the business thread where towards the end someone was inferring that having a non-angry mind was akin to being a sociopath. Obviously, trying to respond to that would be very difficult, so I preferred to just overlook it.
You need to cultivate fertile minds first. Ones that are not distracted by hunger, fear, and sickness.
Let's trot down to Haiti.... You will say "You know why you suffer? The three mental poisons. You need the Dhamma." They will say "I need food." You will say "Listen to my truth." They will say "Listen to my dying baby."
I feel it is unintelligent, unwise, ineffective, and inefficient to try to fulfill spiritual needs over physical needs. A gallon of water, a supply of food, warm clothes, and caring go further than words.
Buddhism has been around for 2500 years. Suffering still persists. Plenty of people know of the Dhamma. Those same people still suffer. SE Asia, near the heart of Buddhism, still suffers. The Dhamma will not end suffering by being taught or spread.
You can sow a million seeds in the desert. That doesn't mean they will grow...
It's purely selfish. I've learnt too much from this thread not to extract every last drop of insight from it. Whether I agree with you all or not, every time you comment, question, challenge, oppose etc. you help me to define my thoughts, and so I will persist until you are all fed up of me. Then i'll go.
"For example, I make it a rule to never reply to a line of attack. A further rule is to find a good point they made, recognise it, and respond thoughtfully to it. This discourages attack, and encourages thinking."
Well, you gave me nothing to work with! Haha. I tease. Fair point. What I wrote sounded much more abrupt than it was intended. It probably needed a big grin or a wink or something. I just thought your comment was amusing... not in a bad way, I get what you were saying, it was just a funny sentence, you know? I didn't mean to sound that abrupt with you. I'm sorry.
In this case, your actions spoke louder than your words in a positive way. Thanks, apology accepted. Guess my approach is to model the Buddhist way through my thoughts, actions, words and compassion as best as I am able and refrain from talking about Buddhism per se.
We can't change the world, we can only change ourselves and, in so doing, change the world.
Make a strong social mandala (as you are) to spread your message. But it's true at the same time to make your message as true to the teachings as you can manage. For example others have already gone before you and done this task. You can get inspiration from the lives of the bodhisattvas. I think there are books with such accounts. Speak truthful. Let go of the senses and renounce.
If you, or anyone else, can recommend a book then that would be great. I love reading inspirational accounts - not just accounts but peoples lives too, but i'm a bit limited to all the obvious great famous people like Gandhi, Mandela, Ron Atkinson etc. What is a mandala, please?
A mandala is a structure to the world. Like a body has inside and outside. A family has inside and outside. A concept has inside and outside.
The personal mandala includes all of your connections to friends and companions. By making the right connections and in the right way everything you are doing can be strengthened.
It is like a bowl of water. You drop a drop in and it waves out to the periphery and then rebounds to the center. A dynamic appears in the water as all of the waves play out.
We can't change the world, we can only change ourselves and, in so doing, change the world.
All of us change whether we like it or not. Part of the method used for a 'guided change' is the practise of compassion, and I believe it's that which changes the world.
We don't have to wait till we're enlightened to be compassionate - or even half-way enlightened - but I think practising compassion is a huge part of the method we use to reach enlightenment.
Two drunks - the total opposite of being enlightened - met up in 1935 and had the first 'A.A. meeting'; the ripples of which changed my world and millions of other worlds just like mine.
I don't think we need to change to change the world; I think we change by changing the world. Does that make sense? We can be very unenlightened yet still practise compassion and make a difference.
Good for @mindatrisk for being all fired-up and wanting to change the world. That's far better than sitting on some wishy washy practise of wishing happiness from a mat.
We can't change the world, we can only change ourselves and, in so doing, change the world.
All of us change whether we like it or not. Part of the method used for a 'guided change' is the practise of compassion, and I believe it's that which changes the world.
We don't have to wait till we're enlightened to be compassionate - or even half-way enlightened - but I think practising compassion is a huge part of the method we use to reach enlightenment.
Two drunks - the total opposite of being enlightened - met up in 1935 and had the first 'A.A. meeting'; the ripples of which changed my world and millions of other worlds just like mine.
I don't think we need to change to change the world; I think we change by changing the world. Does that make sense? We can be very unenlightened yet still practise compassion and make a difference.
Good for @mindatrisk for being all fired-up and wanting to change the world. That's far better than sitting on some wishy washy practise of wishing happiness from a mat.
I agree fully, wonderful insight, thanks for your support.
Make a strong social mandala (as you are) to spread your message. But it's true at the same time to make your message as true to the teachings as you can manage. For example others have already gone before you and done this task. You can get inspiration from the lives of the bodhisattvas. I think there are books with such accounts. Speak truthful. Let go of the senses and renounce.
If you, or anyone else, can recommend a book then that would be great. I love reading inspirational accounts - not just accounts but peoples lives too, but i'm a bit limited to all the obvious great famous people like Gandhi, Mandela, Ron Atkinson etc. What is a mandala, please?
A mandala is a structure to the world. Like a body has inside and outside. A family has inside and outside. A concept has inside and outside.
The personal mandala includes all of your connections to friends and companions. By making the right connections and in the right way everything you are doing can be strengthened.
It is like a bowl of water. You drop a drop in and it waves out to the periphery and then rebounds to the center. A dynamic appears in the water as all of the waves play out.
Arhhh very nice! I have some good mandalas at the moment with much room for expansion. Thank you for explaining.
We can't change the world, we can only change ourselves and, in so doing, change the world.
But we can and do change the world every moment by simply being alive! Changing who we are is absolutely the first step and should always be our priority, BUT, our actions in the world demonstrate who we are. How many great enlightened teachers do you know of who sat and did nothing? They are all acting to change the world. You act to change the world. Your response was an action that changed the world. You can't not change the world. Accept this and then realise that if you act consciously to change the world then you can perform miracles on this planet, as many have done before.
It's purely selfish. I've learnt too much from this thread not to extract every last drop of insight from it. Whether I agree with you all or not, every time you comment, question, challenge, oppose etc. you help me to define my thoughts, and so I will persist until you are all fed up of me. Then i'll go.
Promises promises.....
Yeah, I promise. Don't worry. I know where i'm not wanted. Haha. Whether you like my words on a screen or not, at least i'm good value for a thread or two. Nothing wrong with some spice here and there. Let's face it, you could all just ignore me, no?
Comments
that it burned me out terribly. i am still picking up the pieces of that burn out collapse. those pieces always turn the finger back on me. can i help people ? yes. but am i ever done with me? nope. i try to use that as my humbling factor. its how to keep my beginner's mind from tricking me into thinking that i have anyone's answer for them. i can't even imagine trying to do what you are suggesting, and i have a wonderful imagination. so, i wish you luck. but don't lose sight of your next step in favor of looking far down the path. you might miss something useful.
http://www.onbeing.org/program/thich-nhat-hanh-on-mindfulness-suffering-and-engaged-buddhism/74/extraaudio
So, don't worry about whether you think you can live like this right now based on your current circumstances because you are probably not at anywhere near your optimal best. You have endless potential and endless means within you, and the only thing that stands in the way are your own - and I say this in the very nicest most respectful way - ignorant ideas about you. You can do everything that a Buddha or a Christ can do, but do you believe that? And are you willing to step onto the path and allow it to be paved one step at a time in full trust that it will be there with each step and it will support you with each step?
And remember, none of this is about giving someone else their answer - that is not possible. This is about giving them the awareness that they already their own answers. I appreciate your kind, supportive words and your gentle guidance. Peace be with you.
In an earlier post, below, you suggested that people were judging your intent unfairly by their own interpretation of your words without the benefit of knowing your actions in real life. And further to that you said that you had mistaken Maryanne's tone because " that really is not something I can know".
In your post above, you have inferred that you can deduce from another's words, their emotional state, and then prove your own spiritual development by not reacting with hostility to ridicule and abuse.
So it seems that you are assuming that your audience is naive enough to believe that your online attitude is proof of your development, while you are accepting that their online anger is proof of their lack of development.
I don't think that you can have it both ways. And I think that I am more convinced than ever that Maryanne was correct when she said that your approach is "manipulative and odd".
I don't think your approach can work because it is your stated intent to be manipulative, which might work in a setting where your audience has no choice but accept that you are being truthful, like if you were teaching small children. Or if you were a recognized teacher.
Here on the Internet, with a largely Internet savvy audience, you are going to need to find a way to be more credible than you have been so far. Maybe with more practice.
And I can't help wondering why you are wasting precious time arguing with us here instead of getting on with the task. You start thread after thread asking for ideas and approval and react rudely when anyone voices doubt. If you don't want our opinions why do you keep asking for them?
Same as me I guess.
"For example, I make it a rule to never reply to a line of attack. A further rule is to find a good point they made, recognise it, and respond thoughtfully to it. This discourages attack, and encourages thinking."
I really like the insight i've highlighted in bold. It's not so much about my image of myself, but more about my imaging of myself, or how i'm creating myself. I'm curious to find ways to help people more efficiently and more effectively. Within that i'll make mistakes, but those mistakes are helpful too. For example, if someone feels i've been rude then that would seem to be a mistake given my stated intentions, but it also gives me a chance to apologise and acknowledge my mistake with humility, which is a good thing. Anyway, I like that insight, but whereas you maybe consider it a bad thing, I see it as a beautiful thing... I mean, why stick with who you are when you have countless ways to develop, create, and express yourself in news ways. I am certainly doing exactly that on these forums and taking due note of what works and what doesn't.
And please don't assume that because you think that you understand Buddhism and what you see here doesn't fit with your view, that western Buddhism is in bad shape. It's really just an underhanded insult to some individuals.
Do you have any understanding of what eastern Buddhism is like?
I have wasted no time here whatsoever. This thread has been of wonderful use to me, and i've appreciated every contribution as they have all helped me to understand my thoughts a little bit more. I love to hear your opinions, I just don't agree with some of them, as you don't agree with mine. If you don't like my thoughts then don't read my thoughts!
Altruism is a noble effort. Just make sure you listen at least twice the amount that you speak. Man has a funny way of seeing differences as problems and trying to fix these "problems".
When I was in my early 20's, before you were born by a stretch, I thought I had found something that others hadn't which was true, and that it was my job to tell them about it, uninvited, which wasn't true. Some people were in awe of my wisdom, poor fools. Others humoured me. I was the fool. Some folks just got pissed off. In any case it was a learning experience. One that I will not repeat.
In this life anyway lol.
I consider myself to have very minimal problems and consider the world to be the best it has ever been. You make it seem like my life is very bad for some reason that I am not aware of.
Yes, there are horrendous things going on in select places, some temporary, some long term. But when you look at oppression and plagues and world wars and gulags...etc, one should be able to see that despite all the problems, a larger percentage of people in the world are living better than before. I think part of the problem is that today, with various forms of media, we are able to see all the problems anywhere in the world instantly, while in the past you rarely even found out about such problems.
Global Hunger has decreased. Although there are some 900 million still in need of food. The high, sustained growth has led to rapid reduction in poverty. Although many of the countries which experienced a reduction in poverty are considered fragile and not stable.
I agree. We continue. Now what? Go do it.
It is true that I cannot know how another is speaking to me online, but I don't need to, because I would respond peacefully anyway, so if they hadn't attacked me then they'd receive peace, but if they had attacked me then they'd receive peace - I don't need to know whether they have attacked me or not, but if I maintain my peace at all times then if they have attacked me then maybe my peaceful response will have an impact on them. Does that make sense?
I think what it comes down to is what I said previously about simply overlooking any attack and responding as if no attack had occurred, instead trying to find something positive to focus on. I think a decent example is in the business thread where towards the end someone was inferring that having a non-angry mind was akin to being a sociopath. Obviously, trying to respond to that would be very difficult, so I preferred to just overlook it.
Let's trot down to Haiti....
You will say "You know why you suffer? The three mental poisons. You need the Dhamma."
They will say "I need food."
You will say "Listen to my truth."
They will say "Listen to my dying baby."
I feel it is unintelligent, unwise, ineffective, and inefficient to try to fulfill spiritual needs over physical needs. A gallon of water, a supply of food, warm clothes, and caring go further than words.
Buddhism has been around for 2500 years. Suffering still persists. Plenty of people know of the Dhamma. Those same people still suffer. SE Asia, near the heart of Buddhism, still suffers. The Dhamma will not end suffering by being taught or spread.
You can sow a million seeds in the desert. That doesn't mean they will grow...
Thanks, apology accepted. Guess my approach is to model the Buddhist way through my thoughts, actions, words and compassion as best as I am able and refrain from talking about Buddhism per se.
We can't change the world, we can only change ourselves and, in so doing, change the world.
The personal mandala includes all of your connections to friends and companions. By making the right connections and in the right way everything you are doing can be strengthened.
It is like a bowl of water. You drop a drop in and it waves out to the periphery and then rebounds to the center. A dynamic appears in the water as all of the waves play out.
We don't have to wait till we're enlightened to be compassionate - or even half-way enlightened - but I think practising compassion is a huge part of the method we use to reach enlightenment.
Two drunks - the total opposite of being enlightened - met up in 1935 and had the first 'A.A. meeting'; the ripples of which changed my world and millions of other worlds just like mine.
I don't think we need to change to change the world; I think we change by changing the world. Does that make sense? We can be very unenlightened yet still practise compassion and make a difference.
Good for @mindatrisk for being all fired-up and wanting to change the world. That's far better than sitting on some wishy washy practise of wishing happiness from a mat.
High five to anyone else who just did the same! :-)