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Moral dilemma
Earthninja
WandererWest Australia Veteran
Hi guys! How you are you?
Born in South Africa I've been a hunter and fisherman my whole life.
Since going down this path I've changed some opinions about how I should live my life, I didn't want to kill another creature. At least directly anyway.
Well I've been practicing catch and release fishing since. Much to the annoyance of my fiancé. Anyway I caught a fish yesterday however it had swallowed all the hooks, he would of died as a result. I killed as quickly as I could and now he is dinner...
I feel a little guilty over this, I'm pondering over hanging up my rods and quit fishing.
Does the guilt stem because I broke my resolution or is it compassion forged that wasn't there before?
How do you guys live?
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Comments
I eat things that other people caught or farmed. I think you have compassion. Compassion isn't always a good feeling as literally you go with the object and into their suffering. So you are sharing the suffering of the fish. Some people think that animals have no feeling and are like robots. But generally I think Buddhists know that animals want to be free from harm or in fishes case they want to be free from hooks.
Thank you @Jeffrey, I think it just develops as it goes along. I've also tried to cut out all pig as they are often factory farmed over here.
It might be time to get a new hobby!
Indeed.
I eat fish and meat. If in different circumstances I would fish and hunt. Is it right in some ideal world to be vegan? Yes.
However we fish and hunt in other ways. For example why are you self righteously inflicting fish denial on your fiancée? Hunting for good karma? Fishing for compassion?
Bean plants are sentient. Don't try and eat your way or behaviour your way to Nivana without a little real empty fishing :hiding: .
Gave up flyfishing after more than 20 years because I felt that C&R fishing, while not always deadly, still could be and even if it wasn't it was still torturing the fish for my own entertainment.
I hung up my rods and haven't looked back.
And this years before I even thought about becoming a Buddhist..
Life consumes life to survive. Consider the quantity and quality of suffering that you cause for your own survival, and decide.
On a personal note I don't think fish suffer very much from being eaten, which is likely to be their fate by another predator if not a human.
I wonder, then, why do they thrash around when they're caught?
@Chaz Trying to get away and/or breathe.
This is why I said it was a personal note (my own opinion) that they don't suffer "very much". I'm not claiming that they don't suffer. It's my view that all sentient life seeks happiness and to avoid suffering as a matter of course. Just compared to more advanced lifeforms in harsher situations, I think the amount of suffering of a fish is relatively minor. There are people who are vegetarians but that will still eat fish (Pescetarians); I think they probably feel the same. Again, just my opinion and nothing to argue about. Nothing I'm going to argue about, that is!
Please don't tell me that anyone here knows what's on a fish's mind.
The only time I ever saw fish talk was in the film "The Road To Utopia" with Bob Hope and Bing Crosby.
Honestly, most hunters and anglers (what we call people who fish here) who do so for food tend to have a lot of compassion. Many of them that I know have rituals of reverence for the animal that gave it's life, and are as kind as they can be. I personally think it is a better option, when possible, than eating farmed animals/fish. But my opinion is because I grew up in a culture of hunting, fishing and trapping for a living, too. I still fish, though not nearly as often and only for food. I am more cautious in the type of bait and lures I use. If I had to hunt, I could and I would but am fortunate to be able to get farm raised meat from smaller farms not far from here.
You will figure out what works for you as you go. But I have found myself, the second I start questioning my view, my morals, my values on such topics, there is no going back. You cannot unknown, or unrealize. If you are having strong feelings, you might try out giving it up and see how it feels. Because if you feel that way and then go out and fish, you might meet with a lot of negative emotions about it.
As my teacher (who is a vegetarian when he is in the US, but eats meat when he is in his native Tibet) says, whatever you do in life, do it with mindfulness and awareness. It is better to eat a steak and drink a glass of wine mindfully, fully understanding what is happening and in reverence for the life given, than to mindlessly consume prepackaged veggie burgers.
Try this: Have someome take an icepick and jam it though your gums. Then have them lead you around to someplace you don't want to go with that icepick.
I think it's safe to say that's kinda how a hooked fish will feel.
They don't have to talk.
Know what I mean, Vern?
The latest research (which is always changing, of course) says that the fish response to being hooked is more of an unconscious survival response than a pain response, because upon being released, they return immediately to normal feeding and mating behaviors, without missing a beat. They don't find a place to hide and recover the way injured animals suffering pain typically do. Now, as Buddhists we still need to be aware of their suffering in terms of struggling for survival. The vast majority of non-gut hooked fish returned to the water have high survival rates.
William Penn, the fellow after whom the American state of Pennsylvania was named, converted to Quakerism. Quakerism espouses, amongst other things, nonviolence. During that time period, gentlemen wore a sword by their side as a fashion statement. William Penn was eventually bothered by the idea that fashion statement or not, he was carrying around a weapon while espousing nonviolence. He went to his mentor, the fellow who had converted him, and asked for advice.
After listening to William's concerns his friend said, "Wear it as long as you can." If we are walking a path, we grow. Keep practicing. Fish if you like. Stop when you don't.
Speaking of fishermen ..... Where's @robot ?
Maybe out on the boat.........
Because we don't need to eat fish to survive, she also has fish in the freezer
, I'm not denying her anything. It's a personal choice. One I don't put on anybody else.
Hunting for karma? Fishing for compassion?
I would say karma hints me. I've tried fishing for compassion, it makes me feel like a liar. I think you should only be compassionate if you feel it.
Hunts***
@karasti , I've witnessed this after a fish was hooked and lost on the rocks, the bugger then took another line a few minutes later with the original hooks still in its mouth!
@Chaz I respect that, a lot. The fish don't want to be hooked for our pleasure. I do get that. I've fished a lot less and I think it will stop eventually. I was recently looking at a vegan website and I thought great! No more animals dying!
But I began to realise everything around us is full of animals! Do we stop walking or driving?
Haha I think I'll just do my best and yes be aware!
Bean plants? May have suffering in them but I don't think they suffer as sentient beings. To a bean plant. There is no brain to make the false impression of being seperate from the rest. The bean plant is the universe.
No brain, no pain.
@Earthninja
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness-animal/
This is a pretty balanced and in depth look at the topic at hand. You need not be an anthropomorphizing cream puff to respect life, animal consciousness and awareness and to make the definitive choice of ethical abstention.
I was raised to hunt and especially fish as well, and I will never do so again. I even try not to kill insects... their awareness is likely minimal but it's a matter of respect for life and a being's right to live and be content.
Right now it's been about 7 years without eating red meat, a year vegetarian and right now I'm almost completely vegan. I have never felt better about food and eating as I do right now, and I will never look back. Since transitioning to almost full vegan I feel much healthier, and my athletic performance is much better. Also, despite what a person might think, vegan food is absolutely incredible. exampleshttp://www.onegreenplanet.org/channel/vegan-recipe/
Any ways, Im not trying to push anything on you, but in my opinion it's very good that you aren't eating pigs.. they are more intelligent than dogs and it is strange indeed that they are widely considered a food animal. They do indeed suffer greatly in factory farm settings.
Tell it to the fish
Exactly so. We implement compassion as well as we can from where we are. We have professional soldiers here. Telling them to take up knitting as a profession is not compassionate.
Being kind to the fiancé's, fish and hell dwelling, hungry ghostly lure eaters . . . martial artists etc. . . sounds like a plan . . . I may just go ignorance hunting, myself in sights . . . :ninja: .
@ourself I think all life doesn't want to die. If plants could talk we would be in strife... Big time.
I just figure that living things want to live, and that seems respect worthy. Even those plaque-growing bacteria I just plunged into fiery hell with my prescription mouthwash. Those unknowing intestinal bacteria, working so diligently with my body to produce various vitamins and enzymes, now languish in my septic tank. My how their world has changed.
If I kill them with full knowledge of their 'desire' to survive, I do a lot less killing. And when I do kill, it's not careless. For instance, I just saw a tiny mouse zig zag between the counter top and the washer. I saw him (or his cousin) last night, too, and it's depressing to know that if I can't find out where he and his family are getting in, I have to set out bait and poison them. First I'll set out my array of rat and mouse repellents, but still. I live on a little farm and life with vermin is a fact.
I remember reading about a Zen monk who would sun his body lice, lay them out in a patch of sunlight and then scoop them back up and nestle them . . . wherever . . . after a good airing. I can almost get that.
In a perfect world, it would be great if we did not eat living beings with the capacity to run away to save their lives from us. We have the technology etc to manufacture safe proteins that satisfy our nutritional requirements, and certainly this would be infinitely more sustainable than ranching thousands of acres for cattle. I'm all for eating that kind of food to spare lives of cows and pigs.
This is samsara, we don't have much choice but to eat things that would rather live instead.
They talk. I hear them when thirsty, when requiring pruning and dead heading, when starving, when up against obstacles. When plagued by enemies in the form of neighbours or plant munching vegan insects.
They talk.
http://fcmconference.org/img/CambridgeDeclarationOnConsciousness.pdf
Ah yes, here it is. A good read. Edit: if you don't want the pdf: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_consciousness#Cambridge_Declaration_on_Consciousness
Excerpt:
Evidence of near human like levels of consciousness has been most dramatically observed in African grey
parrots. Mammalian and avian emotional networks and cognitive microcircuitries
appear to be far more homologous than previously thought.
@Hamsaka we also have a mice problem, i bought two aluminium traps that act like a one way door.
I put crunchy peanut butter in it and they run in. They can't get out. I the. Drive 5km into the bush and let them go!
@oceancaldera207 that was a big article! Two cups of coffee and I'm halfway through. Good read though, goes to show how little we know about consciousness. Nobody can even define it 100%. Thank you
Hunting out good karma by skilful action is the same as avoiding conflict in ourselves, others or situations. Few of us are skilful enough to take on or manipulate very harmful karma, picnicking in hell realms is best left to the foolhardy and Bodhisattvas.
Fishing for others compassionate nature includes being in need and needing to salve . . . For most we need to have some compassion for our ignorant lures as an initial cast . . . :wave: .
You're welcome, actually i meant to post the second one instead, but the first one gives a good history on the subject.
I think we all owe ourselves a good long look at animal consciousness. We should at the very least do that. Knee jerk reactions either way are not sufficient. I base my vegetarian/almost veganism and abstention from killing on many experiences throughout my life.. animal friends I had as a child, research, observation, exhortations of certain mahayana buddhist sutras, and a lot of soul searching over the years. I don't hate meat eaters, but i find it distasteful when people give no thought to what they do and chide anyone who questions it. At the very least as buddhists we should hold a sense of appreciation and reverence towards the creatures that we are consuming. Life is diverse, and I firmly believe that we should strive not to see other creatures as inferior, but rather as simply different...for our own sake as well as theirs. It is much better to live with the world and its creatures rather than to believe that everything is somehow created to serve you... the latter viewpoint is a miserable one indeed.
A plant can't even think for itself, let alone express individual desires. That takes a brain. If a plant can have individual desires and fears so can each and every hair, cell and nerve ending in each of our bodies.
So if you feel bad for eating a plant but have no qualms in cutting your hair...
There is the seed of sentience in all aspects I'd imagine but that's a far cry from being sentient. That's just a meat eaters lament.
Why do some plants strangle other plants to grow taller? Why do plants design ingenious ways to spread seeds? Why do plants even grow?
Just because you have feelings doesn't mean you should disrespect other forms of life.
We are all grown out of this planet. Without plants you die.
I didn't actually mean they are sentient but they have awareness and they do "try" to survive!
Animals voice that they don't want to die, plants can't. Which is more right? I have to eat to survive but I want to be respectful and skillful as best I can!
@ourself oh and an amoeba (spelling?) is a single cell organism with no brain. It still has awareness and can build shells with grains of sand. Crazy hey! Makes you wonder about conciousness!
I definitely know I have 'moved forward' in my practice.
I loved shellfish.
Correction, 'LOVE'.
I particularly love Japanese food, and of course Sushi/Sashimi.
Yesterday I'm searching the internet for a recipe on preserving mushrooms in oil, to confirm my methodology.... you get all these links and adverts in sidebars - and one caught my eye.
How to prepare good authentic Sushi and Sashimi.
I decide to "Mmmmmm! let's just watch a Master at work!"
Minutes later, the young woman presenting the lesson, has picked up a beautiful, deep maroon live lobster, with its claws tied shut, and is casually indicating, on the body, where the cuts have to go to segment the tail...
She was so....blasé, so matter-of-fact about holding a creature that was probably pretty much her age, or even older, like it was a turnip or something....
Then, she lays the lobster onto a slab, and holds the body part with a tea towel, to make sure she doesn't get hurt...she is about to demonstrate how you use the knife, vertically, with a good firm push....
That was it. Off.
Couldn't bring myself to watch.
So....Me and fishing?
Not going to happen.
@federica I can't find the Makes-Me-Sad button for your post.
Consider it 'clicked'.
Let my people go . . .
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2011/08/09/buddhists-free-lobsters-off-gloucester-lobstermen-recapture-them/
or capture and serve with butter . . . is this the 'circle/mandala of life?
Consciousness is one thing but being aware of it is another. Do you have compassion for each strand of hair?
I will do a better post once I'm in front of my computer. Posting to this forum from a phone really sucks lately.> @Earthninja said:
If we want to imagine that plants are self aware I think it will only further our suffering. They couldn't care less I'd wager.
@lobster, This illustrates perfectly what was discussed in @Chaz's thread, Saka Dawa.
;]
@ourself I too am on a phone! Trying to get links etc is pretty tough, I might get a 12 year old to show me how!
Hmm isn't being aware of your consciousness a flame trying to burn itself?
And I do believe there are different levels of consciousness. The lines are blurring for me. I even look at rocks a different way now.
I've got this tree right in the middle of my back yard, I can't cut it down. It stirs something within me. Do you get this feeling?
Your right though maybe hair is in the same boat. Never thought about it that way! Although I did come into being my hair came into being, when I die my hair dies.
The tree however doesn't care either way haha.
I think he's saying it's better to not do things that you later regret. I refuse to engage in fishing. I would not want anyone stabbing me with metal hooks. Catch and release does not necessarily mean the animal won't die. A couple studies were done on fish caught and released at fishing tournaments. They found that 40-60% of caught and released fish died within 6 days. If you really think about it, fishing for sport is not very nice from the animals perspective.
Don't worry, I am sure when that fish comes back as a farmer and you end up as his lamb chops one night, he won't feel so bad. I'd stop regretting what you did, and look at what you are doing now and call it quits, but you got to win this time. ... \ lol / ....
Whatever the source of the guilt, it probably won't assist in resolving whether you should quit fishing or not. By this I mean, concentrate on pondering the fishing rather than whether your pondering fishing means you've progressed somehow.
You should in all likelihood be able to tell yourself why it is that you feel guilty by tracing the sequence of thoughts and their focus.
@lobster if I remember correctly the story about the fishermen recapturing the released lobsters was made up. It was meant as a joke and picked up as serious by the media.
@Earthninja I find plants to be fascinating. That doesn't mean I don't respect the life of animals, too of course. The other day I was just about to step into the shower and there were 2 small flies about to be sucked down the drain if I turned on the water, so I got the bug vacuum and caught them and let them go outside, lol. I grow a garden and sometimes, the pea tendrils don't get onto the trellis like they need to, so I guide them with my finger, and they will, after a few minutes, wrap their tendrils around my finger before I move them. I always find that fascinating. I don't mean it as in there is a connection with the plant and myself, I know it is just a stimulus reaction, but I didn't realize it could happen until recently. I had never thought about it.
There are people who eat only plants where eating them doesn't kill the plant. Such as beans, you can pick them and the plant stays alive, versus carrots where you eat the root and kill the plant.
All we can really do is be aware of what it takes to keep us alive, no matter what we eat. The lives we live as humans cost the lives of other beings directly and indirectly every minute of the day. Be grateful and respectful of all life that loses the battle so that we can live, whether by eating them directly, or loss of habitat so we can have houses and farms, or driving our cars, or even riding the rollercoaster, where I once swallowed a huge fly.
I just ran across this on FB this morning, posted on Pema Chodron's page, and found it fitting:
"All of life is interconnected. If something lives, it has life force, the quality of which is energy, a sense of spiritedness. Without that, we can’t lift our arms or open our mouths or open and shut our eyes. If you have ever been with someone who is dying, you know that at one moment, even though it might be quite weak, there’s life force there, and then the next moment there is none. It’s said that when we die, the four elements—earth, air, fire, water—dissolve one by one, each into the other, and finally just dissolve into space. But while we’re living, we share the energy that makes everything, from a blade of grass to an elephant, grow and live and then inevitably wear out and die. This energy, this life force, creates the whole world. It’s very curious that because we as human beings have consciousness, we are also subject to a little twist where we resist life’s energies."
(From her book "Wisdom of No Escape")
@anataman at least I think the pigs will be kind to me in the next life. Lol.
@karasti thank you, you are very wise. You seem to be very aware of a lot of what you do. I will take your words to heart.
Thanks guys, I appreciate all your feedback
My H today, rescued a small bug that had fallen into his drink, while he was outside on our patio. He pulled it out with his finger, then 'blew it dry' because it was waterlogged. he placed it on the table where it proceeded to clean itself up, then, prompted by a tiny slight push by my H.'s fingertip, promptly flew away.
A few years ago, he would have fished it out, and killed it.
Ah, progress.....
)
Be that as it may, it does point to a dilema in the release of captive animals used for food.
It's a fact that sooner or later, the animals we free, such a Lobsters, will, eventually be caught again and consumed as food. If not another human, it will be some other animal that feeds on them.
What we need to do, is look to the moment; what will we do in the moment when we have a choice to be compasssionate, or not?
From philosophic point of view in terms of pain animals are our equals.
IMO our compassion arises we we see the fish, animal or human not as an object but as a living being. The closer one gets the harder it is to objectify them. It is easier to harm or abuse something when we hold it as a concept
and at a distance.
In your own path your heart needs to guide you.
To me, it's simple: don't do anything in life that makes you feel bad.
If you go fishing and feel remorse or guilt over it, then don't do it. No matter how long you have been fishing or hunting, it's the past. You've moved on. Hang up your rod and your rifle and buy your fish, your game or your greens in the supermarket, instead.
Kia Ora,
I find this ethical dilemma interesting and have come across it many times...
As a ethical vegetarian and sub paying Buddhist( I sent Jason a cheque last months-I can't help it if it's still in the post) I'm also a part time urban pestologist ( long story so I won't go into detail here-let's just say "The more you learn the less you fear!" and in the past I had a major phobia involving creepy crawlies) my work involves integrated pest management...Inspecting food premises one day a month, on average...
I have no anger nor hatred towards the insects and rodents that I'm employed to 'control', for example in restaurants and other food outlets (possibly in the shops and restaurants that you eat in and buy your food from)...And fortunately(call it "karma") for the most part my work mainly involves inspections and writing reports...On the odd occasion I still have to eliminate the problem, so at times some reluctant killing (as humane as possible) is involved (even for cockroaches) ...
For this to happen that must happen and for that to happen this must happen...
So, you pay for a meal in a restaurant or buy food from a shop, a % of the meal/food money goes towards pest control which by the law of the land "must" be carried out- 'health & safety' requirements...Sadly because of us humans and our unwholesome waste management practices, rodents and insects pick up bacteria from the waste and 'recycle' it back to us, causing a number of different illnesses-some life threatening ..If the premises owner does not abide by this law they can be closed down, which could mean the staff and their families are out of work ie, "suffering"...
Now one might think, but why don't you find another job where you don't have to kill other sentient beings...If I just stop providing a service because "I" don't want to accumulate unwholesome karma from having to kill, I am just leaving the door open for another less fortunate 'ignorant' person to 'suffer' by accumulate the unwholesome karma "I" don't want... BTW I also do 'non killing' volunteer work which involves working with the less fortunate in my local community ...
Ones "Intention" based upon compassion and not wanting others to suffer seems to be the key when faced with such dilemmas...
Sorry for the long post....
Metta Shoshin
A man's gotta do, what a man's gotta do. Sometimes, it isn't a case of what is 'right' or 'wrong' but of choosing the lesser of two evils....