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Buddhism and Alcohol
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We are not going to find a common verbal formula that we can all sign up to on this issue @caz.
It will simply go the way of the meat eating/ vegetarian threads.
So I am not going to try.
I had a glass of wine last night.
I may have another on saturday.
Frankly if that consigns me to hell then so be it.
The company will be more fun.
I suspect that the key is in the words..developed and pursued but I will leave it for others to come to their own interpretation...
I wonder if there are labels indicating the alcoholic percentage in drinks at Buddha's time.
@caz no those are not Buddhas words, they are from disciples of his disciples.
interpretations of interpretations into English.
Buddha never wrote a book. Don't mistake the finger for the moon
And if you're going to be strident about a subset of the rules that should only apply to monks, then you should be equally so about the other rules. Do you eschew all meals after lunch? How did your alms rounds go yesterday?
Okay. I'm not sure about you, but I hear all these protestations about the silly beliefs of Christians. But you believe you might turn into emu if you drink alcohol.
Totally agree. Let's toast to that!
Prost ! Salute ! Lang may yer lum reek !
Lots of insightful comments here, thanks again. As strange as this may sound to some people, I drink a (single) glass of red wine with my dinner on some days simply because I like the way it goes with Italian food. (No, grape soda is not an acceptable substitute.) So the motivation here is not to get blotto but rather purely gustatory in nature.
Personally, I don't understand all this "I have a glass of wine before dinner" talk. What's the ruddy point in that? You may as well not drink at all.
Weird!
@Tosh , I've only just realised why recently.
Wine is great tasting and the flavours are so diverse and refined. It complements meals
It's the same as drinking tea? What's the point just drink water.
Or spices in foods?
Wine making is an art form and some people appreciate it. They even hate getting drunk because they can't appreciate the subtle flavours. Hence one glass!
What @Earthninja said..
Or two! If you get a little buzz, so what?
Lot's of liquors are every bit as complex and unique as wines. "Small Btach" distilleries are turning out amazing product - Whiskeys, Gins, Bourbons, and so on. For example there's a Gin distillery where they produce a product that starts with a tradition GIn (juniper berries in neutral spirits and adds rose petals and cucumber. As wierd as it sounds it's totally excellent - delightful to both the nose and the pallet.
What's the point? None. No point needed.
I didn't like wine at first taste, but take a roll with some butter on it and then a sip of wine and it is amazing.
Last Saturday, I attended a Könchog Chidü initiation with his Eminence, the 7th Dzogchen Rinpoche.
At the end of the initiation, we were offered saffron water, a chocolate truffe and a tiny glass of some sweet-tasting alcohol.
Tosh is British...that is our humour.
Yeah initiation with chocolate. Yum.
In Sufism wine and alcohol is strictly forbidden . . . and yet the symbol is used throughout their mystical poetry.
In Christianity blood drinking is a sacrament not a wine tasting . . .
If you are strict or an alcoholic, you don't touch alcohol. Neither applies to me. I very occasionally drink, sometimes getting a little merry. I am not addicted to avoiding hell realms . . . Such a terrible Buddhist [hangs head in shame]
Addicted to virtue, vinyasa, sila? - good for you. Well done. I can think of two occasions were I had half a lager with my teacher.
Picnics in hell. Yeah. With truffles . . .
:rarr: .
And were you hit gently on the head with a vase with a peacock feather sticking out of it ?
Pratimoksha Discipline isn't just a monks pursuit its very clear it is for lay people as well to abide by the 5 or 8 precepts depending on the tradition or capacity of the person.
Alcohol disturbs and intoxicates the mind so therefore abandon it if you wish to train your mind.
Or train it to have a drink without becoming disturbed and heedless.
I can do it , so anyone can if they want. If they would rather not, then thats fine too.
And perleese don't tell me that 'really' I am disturbed and heedless but that I don't know it.
Sometimes I AM disturbed and heedless but not because I have had a glass of Brunello or London Pride...
Thanks everyone. But I think I can see exactly why the Buddha wanted people to avoid alcohol: many people assume the sole purpose of drinking is to get trashed. I suppose the Buddha wanted to help as many people as possible escape suffering, hence the blanket rule against drinking. Just my opinion/interpretation though.
The Buddha as far as I know issued no blanket rule against anything..
What the precepts say ( for those who use that framework ) is
Varamani sikkapadam samadyami " I undertake the rule of training " to avoid wrong speech or inappropriate sex or, as in this case, that which causes heedlessness.
Its rather different from a blanket rule.
I’m not against having a drink personally but I heard a Theravada teacher explain it like this.
Question: “Is it okay to have an occasional glass of wine?’
Answer: “Yes of course it is. If they tie you to a chair and force a funnel down your throat and poor in the wine, it’s okay to have some wine...”
Well yes some Theravadins do think like that..Its a big Buddhist world.
Meanwhile I'll be sitting over there..bring a glass, you won't need the funnel.
Can that be arranged for a small fee?
I was hit gently on the head with a couple of things. Can't remember the peacock feather, though. And just to be clear, it's not because the alcohol went to my head.
The vase you were probably gently hit with is called a bumpa , the fact that it sounds like 'bumper' is just a linguistic coincidence...lol.
I think some people just like to have a drink or two, and will always find some way of justifying it.
The fact is, if I want a beer, a cake, a steak, or a cigarette, I shouldn't have to justify it to anyone else. If I am ok with knowing what I know and making a choice, then everyone else really has no choice but to accept that because they don't get to make the decision for me. If someone gets their panties in a twist over the decisions I make about my life that don't affect them in the least, then they are the one with the problem.
Well said @karasti.
Kia Ora,
From what I gather the partake of alcoholic beverage(like other non-essential things we might indulge in) is a desire and some desire [it] more than others...
I personally don't touch alcohol, but if a person likes a little drinky every now and again who am I to judge, it's their mind/life/karma, just so long as they keep the alcohol's effect/impact to themselves and not pester others when they have over indulged..
I guess for the lay-person the ol' "everything in moderation" would be a thing to try to keep in mind... In the long run it's just a matter of respecting other people's rights...
Metta Shoshin
Of course, you only have to justify it to yourself. But there has been quite a lot of justification and rationalisation in this thread. Everything from "There's nothing wrong with drinking in moderation (hic)" to "My teacher drinks, so it must be OK".
Just because someone makes a decision you don't agree with, doesn't mean they are making excuses or justifications for it. They are simply sharing the reasoning they use to make the decision. As has been proven here, time and time again, the precepts can be interpreted numerous ways. It's more important for people to work with their teachers based on their tradition than to follow what people of other traditions follow on the internet.
Also, there is no reason to be disrespectful. There are many, many people who can, and do, drink in moderation. When they say they are able to do so, it's not ok for you to basically say "Ha, sure you can."
I found that innuendo grating too. Drinking a glass or two with friends, once in a while, or over a good plate, and in moderation, yes, it is possible. And yes, I enjoy it. And no, I never get drunk.
And personally, I don't need alcohol to feel more outspoken when I interact socially.
I am very low on alcohol but very high on life. And this beautiful intoxication has nothing to do with alcohol consumption.
The problem I see with that is that you are ignoring science.
" Impairment in performance begins at below 0.02% BAC (1 to 1-1/2 drinks can result in this level).
{NIAAA - Alcohol Problems and Aging: 1998 U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services.
At low doses the effects of alcohol may include alterations in mood, cognition, anxiety level, and motor performance. It may also impair performance several hours after the blood alcohol level has gone down. Even slightly elevated levels result in more fatal accidents, and the majority of individuals who experience a problem related to alcohol use are light and moderate drinkers.
{Department of Health and Human Services in their reports to Congress 1990 and 1993}
One to two drinks of alcohol impair mental and physical abilities; mental processes such as restraint, awareness, concentration and judgment are affected, reaction time slowed, and an inability to perform complicated tasks.
{“The Effects of Alcohol and Other Drugs,” Motorcycle Safety Foundation, Irvine, CA, 1991}
Any blood alcohol level, even a BAC of 0.02%, the result of just one drink, increases the risk of a crash. Alcohol impairs nearly every aspect of the brain’s ability to process information, as well as the eye’s ability to focus and react to light.
{University of California, Berkeley, Wellness Letter, Jan. 1998} "
And remember, so many on our forum like to extol Buddhism as the scientific religion.
Can anyone share the name or location of bar rooms dedicated to Buddhist patrons? No barstools only cushions? One drink limits?
I'm not ignoring the science. I'm not talking about people making a decision to drink and drive, or anything else. How alcohol affects a person varies greatly based on many factors, including gender, body weight, muscle mass, whether they ate or not, what they ate, and so on. My comment was in response to the "There's nothing wrong with drinking in moderation (hic)" to "My teacher drinks, so it must be OK".
comment above, implying with the use of "hic" implying that a person drinking in moderation is actually drunk. Not the case. Every single person is different and they have to know their own limits. I already said above I don't dispute that even small amounts of alcohol can start to impact the body. That doesn't mean you suddenly become heedless, though.
Sometimes, after a hot day in the sun mowing the lawn, and weeding the garden, I feel for a beer. If I grab the beer when I come in, I can feel the effects by the time I finish half of it (the beer I drink is fairly high in alcohol content, to be clear) because I have not eaten for hours. If I am eating at Thanksgiving dinner where I might have a glass of wine after I have been munching on crackers, fruit, veggies, dip, chips, and other items and sip on it as we spend an hour at the table, no, I don't feel the effects. That doesn't mean it won't show in my BAC, and as a result, I never, ever take the chance and drive, not even after one drink (unless a significant amount of time has passed). When other people's safety is at risk, I never take the chance. My sister was almost killed by a drunk driver, and I take that pretty seriously.
For my height and gender, drinking a normal beer over the course of an hour leads to a BAC of about .003%. (that comes from a chart I got from my ex's DUI booklet, so who knows how accurate exactly). It would take between 2-3 beers for me to approach the .02 limit you mentioned. My mother is a very different story, as she is petite, and at 5' 2" only weights about 110 pounds.
If you are in your own home, perhaps there is no need to justify filling it with poisonous smoke but if you are exposing others then yes, everyone else does have a choice. I don't want to be poisoned.
Eating a steak you are already imposing your decision on others but that's another thread.
When choices you make expose others to harm then I think it's safe to say your decisions affect them.
Despite the emoticons your post received, it may have been better to stick with intoxicants and heedlessness to stay the course of the thread.
Personally I do not drink and the reason is because I notice a lack of mindfulness and dislike hangovers but I do on occasion smoke weed.
However what causes heedlessness in me may not cause heedlessness in you.
I think one should consider the increased danger after 1 or 2 drinks compaired to the base line danger.
If you have a .001 percent of an accident (arbitrary number for illustragion) does the chance for an accident multiply times 10? 100? 1000? That would have baring on the increased risk.
For me my medicines are a greater risk than any persons 1 beer. I never drive and drink because medicines + beer = bad. I never drive on the express way and generally I only drive to the grocery. So I would say my driving is worse than a 180 pound man with 2 beers. So I guess I should feel bad about being a risk to others. But on the other hand the same type of situation happens for elderly drivers. They might be more at risk than I am, but it is still an increased risk. I have never been in a car accident outside the parking lot since. Well I did have an accident when I was 15 but that is a different story.
Hang on @Jeffrey..I have seen no one advocating drink driving on this thread.
I have the odd glass of wine or beer because I like it..but not when I am going to drive.
my post was unclear. I never drink and drive. Where I said I only go to the grocery is me driving sober but granting I am on a lot of medicine.
"However what causes heedlessness in me may not cause heedlessness in you."
Which is exactly why you are free to choose to smoke pot because you know how it affects you, and how it doesn't. And why i can choose to drink a beer for the same reason. That is exactly my point.
There are many, many people who can, and do, drink in moderation.
And many who have a moderate problem with alchohol.
Working in bars, living in college towns... I have a lot of experience with alcohol (and heedlessness too!). I have said things I regretted under the influence, done things I regretted under the influence, wreaked havoc on my body because of the influence... and so, I can say that the line of "heedlessness" has become pretty clear to me. I tend to view drinking to intoxication like rolling a die. Sometimes you get lucky and nothing bad happens, but other times... situations pop up that you cannot handle because of intoxication, you do stupid things, you hurt people with words or actions... there are times when you realize that you would have never responded the way you did had it not been for the alcohol. And that is what I think the precept is really all about. By drinking to intoxication, you are risking heedlessness and therefore, risking creating more suffering for yourself or others. It's not about a small amount of wine passing your lips, it's about the effect that alcohol creates at a point. The amount may vary depending on the individual and the circumstances, but if you are present in your body, you should be pretty aware of the effects.
i can put my hand on my heart and say that I have never drunk to intoxication...
It is possible to for many people to not. Its knowing yourself.
Mr Cushion is checking out the wine menu at Buddha Bar. Bad Cushion!
. . . Mind you this seems an ideal location for a YinYana retreat . . .
So much for abiding by morale discipline eh ? The more excuse made against it the further entrenched in Samsara you become.
Whereas being judgemental is liberating ?
Wisdom Discriminating virtue from non virtue
I'm lost now - what is the problem with alcohol?