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Is eating natural food necessary to become enlightened?
WanMin
Veteran
Dear sangha, even though I never practiced karate I have read Patrick McCarthy's translation of the Bubishi out of curiosity and found this passage:"Those who will be enlightened are the ones who live moderate lives, have simple tastes,** consume natural foods**, and pursue the wisdom of the sages."
Next, after being introduced to lojong in this forum, I also read on Wikipedia's version of it: "Slogan 29. Abandon poisonous food."
Can one assume that eating natural foods is relevant for enlightenement or even necessary?
Thank you for your time.
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Comments
Hi @WanMin.
I am no expert but my understanding is that monks (traditionally) were expected to eat whatever was given to them by lay people.
I am sure that this often was not natural food.
What is natural food anyway? Unprocessed?
>
I think in this day and age, living a wholesome and skilful life is a pre-requisite of enlightenment. We have more than enough to worry about with regard to Taming our Mind and following the Path and precepts, that to be honest with you, whatever healthy diet one consumes, it's pretty low on the list of priorities for gaining Enlightenment.
We are charged with seeking to follow the Middle Way.
I am vegetarian, and eat vegetarian dishes I largely make from scratch myself,usually. But sometimes, there's a lot to be said for a nice plateful of chips (UK) or Fries (USA), some salt, vinegar and Heinz salad cream (inexplicable!) to dip them in!
(Do you have Heinz Salad Cream in the USA? Or anywhere else for that matter? In my opinion, it crowns the dish....!)
Thinking that eating natural food is necessary to become enlightened
is itself a hindrance to becoming enlightened.
@Federica. Yes we do have Heinz Salad Cream in the USA. When I lived in FL about 90 minutes away was a business called the British Store. Expats would flock there to buy those products which reminded them of home. There are also a number of online sites here you can order from. I've not tried it but very well may. I don't care for catsup on fries but mayo is way ok.
Some Buddhists regard food as medicine or just body fuel to maintain ones practice . . .
Food or nutrition has a variety of meanings. Wholesome too.
Be careful what you consume and chew carefully. You are what you eat. Eat only 'Halal/Kosher/Buddha approved nourishment . . .
Oh wait . . .
. eating ones way to nirvana . . . m m m . . . not very relevant IMHO.
Chips in chilli sauce or mayonnaise . . . yum . . . :wave: .
Sounds pretty close to mayonnaise or miracle whip
For some silly reason we call Heinz Salad Cream 'mayonnaise' in Australia. But then we call what is actual mayonnaise 'whole egg mayonnaise'.
Go figure....
Anyway, I digress.
Abandon Poisonous Food is not what you think it means. Some teachers do bring eating into it, but mostly it has to do with being cautious about what you put into your mind. Lojong is mind training, and each point is another thing to address as far as training your mind. It is about poisoning yourself with egotistical ideals "If I meditate for many hours a day, I'll be the best meditator there is! If I eat only vegan food, I'll be the best Buddhist ever!"
If you believe something is a hindrance to you, your belief of that is more important than what doctrine even says. There is no 5 step to enlightenment program or anything. Everyone takes a slightly different path. If you are concerned about what you eat, examine it. I can say, the cleaner you eat (less processed food especially, more veggies) the clearer your mind will be, making realizations easier and teachings more likely to sink in. So what you eat can influence your practice. But I don't see it as being something that will define whether you become enlightened or not.
This is a good Lojong page, but kind of complicated to use at first.
http://lojongmindtraining.com/sectionSummary.aspx?sectionID=6
At the very top where it says teachings, it has the lojong slogans broken down into sections. But each section, you'll see a list of the statements, and on the left a letter with a link. The letter stands for the name of a teacher, so each one you click on will give you that teacher's interpretation of the slogan.
Thank you all for your answers. @karasti I stand corrected about the meaning of poisonous foods in the lojong and also thank you for the link which is a valuable source of resources for understanding the text.
My question was more related with trying to understand if it was realy considered relevant. Personaly I have adoptedt the rule of eating for nourishment and health. So it does not change my attitude towards food.
At the rational level if the body is healthy and has the right proportion of nutrients then the function of the brain will also improve and the body will be energized.
I was in a pub once with some friends, who for reasons which I completely forget, were discussing that a Monk was obliged to eat whatever people charitably offered and donated. One of the guys there (whom I hardly knew at all) went on to relate an account of how someone put a live scorpion in his bowl and he felt obligated to eat it, but died, because the scorpion stung him. I fell off my stool I was laughing so hard, and it took me a good 5 minutes to recover and tell this guy that if he really believed that 'story' he was a whole lot more stupid than he looked....
What we put into our bodies most definitely makes a difference. But what we put into our minds matters too, and whether we choose to feed our ego or not. To me the slogan seems best summed up by that 2 wolves Native American (supposedly) story:
An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. "A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy.
"It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego." He continued, "The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you - and inside every other person, too."
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win?"
The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."
So it won't make much difference if you optimally feed your body if you use it as superiority over others who do not, or cannot, eat the way you do. Yes, what we eat and drink is very important. Just be careful not to use it, or anything else, as a measure of comparison between you and someone else. It can easily turn a wonderful diet into an ego buffet.
Something to be kept in mind.
The other rather famous story in Thailand -- along similar lines -- is that when a leper put some food in an alms bowl, part of his finger also fell off and into the alms bowl, and the monk ate that, too.
I have been listening to Ajahn Chah these days. So my posts will include references to his teachings for now.
He said some people eat brains of the live monkeys, which is too much over-indulging in food
(excessive tanha for food).
I even saw a youtube video showing people who are eating in a really inhumane way.
I don't want to include that youtube link, as I dont want to give nightmares to anyone.
I think when the author says 'consume natural foods', it could mean consuming with reason.
Dear husband is still at home on vacation, and despite empty promises of going on a diet upon our return from Italy, we simply can't seem to stop eating.
At the same time, I have this huge summer reading Buddhist bibliography that I'm digesting as festively and as fast as the average grill.
Christmas Humphreys' "The Buddhist way of life," Bikkhu Payutto's "Buddhadhamma," Nyanaponika Thera's "The vision of Dhamma," and a looong etcetera.
So while I very mindfully observe what I choose to put into my head, I thoroughly enjoy what I choose to put into my stomach.
I am very dhammic about the former. Very hedonist about the latter.
No shame. No regrets. As usual. As ever
I think it should be eating mindfully which we can do to liberate to the enlightenment. Because of Sati (wakefulness of mind) you enjoy the taste of each bit of food. Also better digestion and health is one of the good reason to mindful eating (not just enlightenment in the future)
@mmo
Mindfulness of anything is simply our attention to what is.
While a wakefulness of mind does present an awareness of the taste of your food, that this might be enjoyable, is only one possibility of many.
@how, it is true, Buddha's teaching of middle way. The fact that we enjoy every single details of the taste in food is just the byproduct of having sati. What we eat could be poison or medicine, depending on the amount. with sati, you wouldn't eat uncontrollably and food is both nourishing and enjoyable.
Exactly so.
The body requires nourishment, the emotional body too. The mental body is nourished, poisoned or maintained by input. Be aware of social needs, nourishing our being rather than punishing our humanity . . .
Consume without being consumed . . . :wave: .
:clap:
It is good to eat to relieve the hunger, not to get a full stomach.
...brains of the live monkeys
They don't sell that in my local Tesco.
You obviously haven't spoken to the staff, lately.
(Did I say that out loud....? :eek: . )
That story , the eating of the beggars finger, is not actually apocryphal. The monk in question was the Buddhas great disciple Mahakassapa, and the incident was recorded in the Hemavatta Sutta.
@SpinyNorman, you could suggest, they might do in the future.
Natural food versus what, "unnatural" food? When and where was this karate manual written? Do a bit of research and find out what people ate back then. Odds are, the regular (peasant farmers) ate whatever didn't get taken away from them by the Lords who owned them and the land. If you could chew it up, swallow, and keep it down, it was natural enough. In Korea, I once saw some old women leaving the rice fields with fistfulls of big grasshoppers, destined for the supper table. Can't get more natural than that.
The advice is too broad and general to be of much use in getting down to specifics, isn't it?
Actually, the legend to which I was referring was attributed to one of the Jataka tales. If you wish to believe that in previous lives Buddha was an animal, rather than human, of course you are free to do so. I discount that, and as a result am one who see the Jataka tales as just that...tales...fiction.
I was not referring to the Jataka tales, but to the account in the Hemavatta Sutta of the Buddha's great disciple Mahakassapa who recounted how he was on alms round, in his life as Mahakassapa, when a leper placed food in his alms bowl and a portion of the beggars finger fell into the bowl.
Kassapa recounts that he took his bowl and ate everything in it including the portion of finger " without aversion ".
This was held by the Buddha's Sangha as an example of great Upekkha..equanimity.
And is one reason why Kassapa was called "Maha" (Great ) Kassapa, and was given the title " Father of the Sangha ".
@Mettanando, you brought into your post my earlier post, which I just explained is based on a Jataka tale.
Yeah, I love those examples of pre-urban legends. Bet that story constantly circulated around the temples! Actually, the leper would himself be a beggar with his own bowl, and fingers of even lepers don't just fall off unexpectantly like that. But it makes for a great tale, doesn't it?
That takes 'finger food' to a totally new level, ha.
In fact I think you will find that the Jataka Tales were compiled after the Suttas.
Which means that the story recorded in the Hemavata Sutta is actually earlier.
Just because a teaching found in the Suttas does not conform to our modern sensibilities does not mean it is not valid.
There is a similar issue with the Buddha's quite clearly stated reservations about women in the Sangha. We can't just airbrush them out to suit our selves.
We need to rediscover their meaning.
But I realise I have contributed to taking the thread off-topic. My apologies.
' Natural ' or ' unnatural ' foods are neither here nor there in terms of reaching states of absorption.
However, eating a diet rich in nutrients might prolong our bodily health. Which would mean a longer time period in which to reach those states.
I see little point in living longer just in order to watch daytime TV in an old folks facility.
Well that's a good point. Maybe the comment was designed for middle class and upper class readers though food tables at the time were not flooded with all kind of unnatural and unealthy foods as they are today. I usually associate it with another reference that sometimes can be found of eating for nourishing only.
You provided valuable information.
I think it helps.
Some things we ingest, such as coffee and alcohol, have an obvious affect on us while others are more subtle. My wife gets really flushed and uncomfortable if she ingests aspartame or msg. I refer to her as my msg detector if we are in a restaurant.
I believe that everything we take in has some effect on us and, although it may not be as obvious as what I have already mentioned, some of the effects can interfere with the clarity of the mind.
We have recently switched to a gluten free diet and while I notice a big difference in my digestive process my wife said her mind feels much less fuzzy.
It is not so much what one eats as how one eats it.
I think Mindfull eating is a good practice.
There is no such thing as 'Natural' food.....
I have alergy to gluten and I have more difficulty to concentrate when I consume it. Having switched diet several times I'm convinced it can affect the mind in many ways. A vegan diet leaves me with a better and more peaceful disposition, it also makes me lose my memory.
Only spiritual foods are natural?
What would you call 'spiritual' food? There is no such thing!
And there is no such thing as 'natural food' either, because virtually everything we eat has been modified, altered and 'restructured' to accommodate modern palates.
Carrots today are nothing like carrots used to look like. The same goes for every other food you eat. It's all been modified to suit our softer and weaker jaws and teeth....
I eat a lot of junk food, and I'm not enlightened...
Therefore healthy food must be the key to enlightenment!
...or is that a reverse/inside-out "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy?
Recently watched 'Fed Up' about the rise of obesity in the western diet and in particular America. Eating non processed foods is part of the road to a healthier being.
http://fedupmovie.com/
As for the relationship between health and enlightenment. Being well makes practice easier. Illness can be a hindrance.
Eating healthy is a great idea, but generally requires one of two things: cooking your own food from scratch or near-scratch (which some of us are horrible at), or buying much more expensive non-processed food. It's a crappy situation to be in. I maybe don't eat all that much junk food, but the food I eat isn't all that healthy either, and it's cost prohibitive to change.
I've fallen into that judgmental state where I feel superior to others because of what they ingest. It is delusion but I notice my hypocrisy quicker and easier now.
Much of that is thanks to you guys, btw.
As for the tales of Jataka, in my view we are each living one right now.
Well said.
Nutrition comes in many forms, physical, mental, emotional . . .
Is ice cream "natural"?
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Next, after being introduced to lojong in this forum, I also read on Wikipedia's version of it: "Slogan 29. Abandon poisonous food."
According to some commentary on this, it really does not necessarily mean food as in food you eat. http://www.tricycle.com/web-exclusive/train-your-mind-abandon-poisonous-food
While I agree with you that it is increasingly difficult today to define natural due to contamination with unnatural substances of everything, for health purposes I would still draw a line here in regard to what we call unnatural.
One thing is evolution and natural selection which probably every creature in the planet has been subject to. Certainly what we call food, cereals, vegetables and cattle have been subject to intentional and nonintentional forms of man made selection.
Other thing is forms of processing food, starting with smoking it for instance. In the Middle Ages more natural food would be fresh meat in contrast to smoked meat. But things evolved and today we have processed food created in test tubs. Some of these creations have only proved useful to unclog toilets. They usually lack natural enzymes and even when vitamins and minerals are artificially added they are usually in excessive amounts not to mention other nutrients. They are very high in calories and can contain high concentration of nutrients like transfats which when existent in nature they appear in very low concentrations in unprocessed foods. They also contain substances to alter their color, flavour and to preserve them.
So maybe a carot or a cabage may have changed, I'm not familiar with food archaeology, since humans start to use them and may have concentrations of some chemicla substances that wouldn't be there some centuries ago, but they are still more balanced and healthy than a chocolate.
Finally there are also GMOs in which living beings are created in a test tube, but because these new creations haven't been exposed to the test of time there is no saying what effects they could have on the human health.
Remember when "macrobiotic" was the craze? I knew a person who adhered to that way of eating while living at Kripalu yoga center for awhile. As I recall it involves eating mostly whole grains, fish occasionally, vegetables that are in season. For some reason tomatoes were avoided, which put me off...I love tomatoes! Overall a senseible way to eat, but for some reason I think macrobiotic is not in vogue now; or maybe it just morphed into something else. Common sense? Haha.
I agree that the logon slogan "Avoid poisonous food" is NOT about diet.
Though I think they raise some good points in returning to a more traditionaI diet I find macrobiotics too restrictive and also expensive. Some people think it is less restrictive than other forms of vegetarianism because it allows fish, but if one considers all its banned foods it looks much more restrictive. Tomatoes for instance are a great source of antioxidants and they have the particularity that cooking actualy increases their protective effect unlike other vegetables.