Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Is (Buddhist) Meditation Just A Form Of Brainwashing ?
Shoshin
No one in particularNowhere Special Veteran
in Meditation
Comments
To a person who takes a religion -- any religion seriously -- I don't think so.
To simply accept everything any religion presents -- hook line and sinker (so to speak) -- is a form of brainwashing, IMHO.
Yes, a certain small segment of other religions scare people by claiming meditation is either some sort of brainwashing or - worse - all that talk of an empty mind is to open the mind to demon possession. However, I notice the cartoon has a cross on the brush doing the "brainwashing" so I assume this comes from the opposite camp?
Well, it kind of can be, depending on the type of meditation. It's similar to self-hypnosis. So if you consider that to be a type of brain-washing, then, "yes". For example, if you're meditating on loving-kindness or compassion, you're priming yourself to open your heart and empathize with other sentient beings. If you're visualizing your guru as the Buddha, and doing guru devotion, "yes". Is this a good or a bad thing? You decide.
Brainwashing has a negative connotation, I'd say, while autosuggestion is a positive self-programming.
Well, sure. But they're basically the same thing, just viewed from different perspectives: from an accepting perspective vs. a critical one. Brainwashing vs. autosuggestion is in the eye of the beholder.
Autosuggestion comes from inside and is empowering, instead.
That always reminds me of the great brainwashing panic of the 1970s, where the Hare Khrishna people and other cults were supposed to be brainwashing our teenagers. Remember there were even parents who hired thugs to kidnap their children from the places like airports where they were handing out flowers and tie them up for what was basically abuse to break the spell.
But later on, studies showed most of these young people would outgrow the cult and get on with their lives and considered their time chanting and such a good learning experience. Of course there were exceptions, but those were fringe doomsday cults.
Brainwashing has a lot of myth behind it.
I was about to ask much the same thing.... @Shoshin, do you think you've been brainwashed?
Do you think it is?
Those are good criteria. By that measure, some people would be justified in saying that guru devotion in some Mahayana Buddhist traditions = brainwashing.
I think right about now would be a good time to hear from the OP, and what she thinks about the term "brainwashing" as applied to Buddhism, or why she asked the question.
In all honesty I didn't notice the cross on the brush, I was just looking for an image...So no religious bashing involved on my part, just an honest error...
Yes it is in a sense voluntary brainwashing, ie, washing away the old conditioned garbage...Well that's how I view it, but this is just my personal view...People are free to see it in their own way...
I guess some might make a connection with the cold war...Which is fair enough...
It's a good question. The phrase voluntary brainwashing stands out to me...and ridding one's self of old conditioning -- but to what degree are we replacing the old conditioning with some sort of new conditioning?
From the little I know and think I understand about Buddhism and the Way, etc., it's most certainly a new and improved conditioning.
I just find it interesting in how others view things ( we see the world differently )...Nothing more nothing less...I can assure you I wasn't hatching some evil sinister plan to conquer the world ...
"Brainwashing" is when others try to browbeat us into getting rid of common sense and compel us to be mindless sheep.
Buddhism gives us the brush and bar of soap and recommends we cleanse our own minds of mistaken or unskilful concepts and presumptions...
Sometimes, a good overnight soak in "Vanish" is required.....
No
with anyone Buddhist meditation starts with trying to know and see what exactly is the body, feelings, the mind, mental qualities; arising and passing away of the body, feelings, the mind, mental qualities
it is not brainwashing
once one knows and sees what exactly is the body, feelings, the mind, mental qualities and arising and passing away of the body, feeling, the mind, mental qualities, it is the knowledge and vision of the truth but one is not brainwashed
after this stage one knows with full confidence that one needs to continue Buddhist meditation to get rid of all worldly suffering for oneself
Mild forms of brainwashing is probably endemic. Being civilized (as opposed to feral) is accomplished via conditioning, which is a component of brainwashing. We learn to use the toilet to please our parents, not ourselves, even if the poopy pants are uncomfortable and stinky. We learn to speak and even walk upright by constant encouragement. Then we learn to sit still, quell our impulses, delay gratification so we can function as a member of society.
The brainwashing of cults is a lot different on the surface of things; but maybe as @Dakini says the deepest origins are the same. It's all done TO us from outer more powerful influences. There may not be any place in us that haven't been manipulated and changed due to outer influences.
This harkens back to your other thread @Shoshin, is Buddhism a religion? In my beady little heart, I resist religion for seeing it as a powerful brainwashing type tool. I experienced the negative form of that and lived in pure terror of going to Hell when I was very young. So Buddhism is NOT a religion, I say to myself (while some very, very remote self of mine whistles in the dark). Therefore, while I submit myself to the Buddha's teachings, among others, I am making the choices and protecting myself from going down the rabbit hole. I've been down the rabbit hole and climbing out again took years.
All this is so obviously reflecting my attachments and aversions, I see it as it happens, and so far it seems to 'work'. I am calling the shots, not the Buddha or some deity because I identify my "I" as undifferent to the Buddha's humanity, that "I" that constantly seeks transcendence.
If anything Buddhist meditation is to de-condition the mind.
Yes. Fabric de-conditioner.....
Or a good quality hair detangler, I have hair down to my butt and rely on it daily. Hopefully it soaks in past my scalp and into that tangled mess in my brain . . .
For me the "Buddha's path" is religion (realignment)
I except the path as truth until proven otherwise. because I won't know if it is true until I get there.
all other truths have to be verified first.
And, to me, that is having been brainwashed. You "except" (accept) it automatically and without question. But any other wisdom has to be "verified".
@Hamsaka makes a good point.
We're already brainwashed to some degree by our parents, the government, corporations, our friends etc.
Thank you for the correction.
Meditation is putting these subconscious spontaneous reactions into conscious observation.
Then we can verify the truth in them.
Once you look for yourself you realise it doesn't exist. We have been brainwashed(conditioned) to believe it does.
Chanting meditation helps replace the erroneous subconscious thought patterns with positive ones. Your just changing the old habits into better ones.
Some parts of my brain need a lot of scrubbing!
Buddhist psychoanalyst Giulio Giacobbe maintains that Right Thought, one of the spokes in the N8P, "consists of the elimination of negative thought and the construction of positive thought."
Negative thoughts are those thoughts that identify strongly with the ego, boundaries and separation, while positive thoughts are naturally defined as those that lead to disidentification with the ego's negative traits.
But since negative thoughts seem to sprout involuntarily (so deeply are ego-related thoughts ingrained in our psyche), the replacement with new positive conditioning calls for active reprogramming on our part.
As Giacobbe says it: "The operation we have to do ultimately is to replace involuntary negative thoughts with voluntary positive thoughts."
And here enters a positive form of autosuggestion (I don't like brainwashing), which consists on putting the N8P into practice, especially the meditative practice, the ruthless observation of our thoughts in order to separate the dross from the real deal.
Yes, it's brainwashing to make one stop being deluded.
Good points guys
It can be taught and experienced as the process of washing away existing patterns or stains and replacing with new patterns that potentially allow the removal of patterns and stains.
If we get stuck in patterned thinking, we have in effect been brain washed. It may well be a bettern pattern, however that is part of a full wash cycle.
This is why the core practice, independent of the structure, hierarchy, conditioning agents, deluded scrubbers and empty/full headed can be meditative and contemplative . . .
. . . and now back to the rinsing . . .
Don't forget the softener.
Buddhist meditation? I don't even know what that is anymore, there are so many kinds of practices, mantra meditations, visualization meditations,
We have to ask ourselves why are we practicing in the first place? Is it for the cessation of suffering, that is actual and is present? Or for realizing Buddhahood because supposedly someone said it is a superior attainment or whatever, my motivation for practicing is not for realizing Buddhahood, but for the cessation of suffering only.
@lobster - Are you deriding me and my views, otherwise we will become adversaries yet still be on the same path unless your path is as an adversary and diversionary - wriggle wriggle - I will play no.1mage in an imaginary game of good v evil?
Oh well enough fun and fumigation; apologies for using @lobster poeticisms; but if he/she plays such games, then I'm the eternal irony! ...\lol/...
btw don't eat the blue stuff, cos that's for rats!
buddhism ain't just about sitting and staring at carpet floors, or golden statues or contemplating this or that,
It's also not about becoming a twat
It's about realising who or what you are
and sometimes that can appear bizarre
But in the end you will know who you are
Goodnight sweeties
Goodnight pains
Goodnight headaches
welcome Gains!
But is that right view?
"Mind training" which is advocated by Tibetan Buddhism, is a gentler form of beneficial "voluntary" brainwashing...
"I'm gonna wash that defilement right out of my brain ! I'm gonna wash that defilement right out of my brain! I'm gonna wash that defilement right out of my brain! And send it on its way!"
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind."
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an01/an01.049.than.html
It can be said 'Brain cleaning".
"Great Faith and Great Doubt are two ends of a spiritual walking stick. We grip one end with the grasp given to us by our Great Determination. We poke into the underbrush in the dark on our spiritual journey. This act is real spiritual practice -- gripping the Faith end and poking ahead with the Doubt end of the stick. If we have no Faith, we have no Doubt. If we have no Determination, we never pick up the stick in the first place."
Sensei Sevan Ross
There is non-fiction book which analyzes the techniques used by cults, terrorists and to describe the consequences of the Stockholm syndrome:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing:_The_Science_of_Thought_Control
Cases like Patty Hearst, Manson and cult mass murders are analyzed.
Like I expressed above, I still insist that I don't find the term "brainwashing" appropriate to be applied in a positive context, least of all, in a Buddhist context of mind training.
The more I read the comments, the less convinced I am of the use of the term.
A psychoanalyst trying to persuade a pessimist patient to gain control over his own mind by trying autosuggestion, mindfulness and positive affirmation exercises is not brainwashing his patient nor making him to "brainwash himself."
To me, the reflexive pronoun does not apply in brainwashing.
Brainwashing always bespeaks of an outer influence exerting control over a person's ability to make choices and think for himself.
Meditation helps us gain control over our ability to choose rightly by being ourselves the instigators of our own mind control.
Yes, that's the usual definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/brainwashing
I liked the reference to TV adverts as a form of brainwashing.
Brain washing, not brainwashing. Yes in that sense. It would actually be anti-brainwashing, would it not? It diffuses the power of past conditioning to the extent you practice.
Yes, you could think of meditation as "deconditioning".
@SpinyNorman Yeah it's going against the current, or at least standing firm against that current, and it allows us to see what's really moving. When we're standing firm "here", and see everything that would represent our routine activity arising and passing "there", it breaks down our view of who/what we are (at our so-called core).
Hilariously I had addressed this post to myself by accident. Guess talking to myself takes a new form!
"Brainwashing" is such an inflammatory word, denoting, most often, what one person or organization does to an individual. It can be pretty spooky if not downright terrifying, depending on the point of view. No one likes the idea that s/he is simply brainwashed instead of having a deeper understanding, Other people can be "brainwashed," but not, of course, me.
I don't think the get-thee-behind-me-Satan approach will work very well.
Think of the time(s) you have taken up a new endeavor -- playing the guitar, painting a picture, espousing a spiritual adventure, whatever. You long to achieve the goal and invest considerable energy in the intent and hope. It may not be the perfect understanding, but you have to start somewhere ... and put the pedal to the metal.
Enthusiasm and credulity fill the skies.
And of course others may think you are a pure dope -- someone who has been brainwashed. That's the way of the world and you might as well relax and just keep making your best, if faulty, effort.
I do not look back on my own initial enthusiasms with much pleasure. Oh yes, I was terribly sincere, but sincerity and a couple of bucks will get you a bus ride. The only way out, I think, is in ... keep on following whatever star appeals to you until the enthusiasm and the expectation and the praise and the blame simply run out of steam. Were/are you brainwashed? The answer is probably yes. Brainwashed R Us. But with determination, there is a real strength that grows and there is more willingness to relax.
Is Buddhism the best thing since sliced bread? Maybe so, maybe not. But the only way to find out is to keep finding out from whatever point or capacity you may be capable of sustaining. Brainwashing is a lie in one sense, but if you look around, so are a lot of other deeply-held convictions. But out of the lies, there is a truth that is capable of emerging -- an understanding not based on other people or philosophies. It's just experience and in the end, experience trumps (good, bad or indifferent) knee-jerk brainwashing.
Relax -- there isn't any activity in the world that cannot be turned into a cult or be used for selfish purposes. Relax ... but keep an eye on things.
Sorry for the toot.
Yes, and nobody has brainwashed me into saying so....Praise the Lord!
Meditation would be to notice if you are or are not brainwashed. If you are then you will eventually notice because meditation is simply noticing what is there.
Brain washing..........................................................yes!
Voluntary.................................................................yes!
Just more stuff to eventually let go off ..................yes!
Does ones aversion towards the word "brainwashing"(after all it's just a word) stem from being brainwashed into thinking of it as such?
It's quite interesting how some words can effect us more than others....
Check the dictionary.
a very interesting thing to ponder and a wise way to apply to all words 'I' know
thanks @Shoshin
when i think about it i see that i have a mild aversion to the word 'brainwashing'
why is that?
because my perception is wrong
why do i have a wrong perception about the word 'brainwashing'?
that is because all the stories i have read and the films i have seen have given me the negative aspect of the word 'brainwashing'
after reading some posts of this thread my perception of the word 'brainwashing' has been starting to change: brainwashing can be used for removing bad qualities in the mind like delusion, greed and hate too
so answer for the OP should be 'Yes and No' rather than definite 'Yes or No'
thanks @Shoshin and all others who did post in this thread
that is because all the stories i have read and the films i have seen have given me the negative aspect of the word 'brainwashing'>
But your negative impression of "brainwashing" is actually correct: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_control
Brainwashing has nothing to do with Buddhist meditation.