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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@SpinyNorman said:
Isn't it? If we think about forgiveness just as self-help therapy, a way of coping and making ourselves feel better, it can begin to look very much like that.
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I have to agree, only because societies pretty much everywhere have a horrendous habit of being in collusion by just simply sweeping it under the carpet and in essence tell the young that it's a part of the deal of life, and it twists minds and hearts everywhere. (Peeps don't have the courage to stand up and do what's right because they know it could cost them 'everything' (from status up to and including death).
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SarahTTime ... space ... joySouth Coast, UKVeteran
Again and again, I heard the suggestion to pray for those I resented. My early attempts to follow this suggestion did me little good. Over time, however, it has become one of the most effective tools of my recovery.
What made the difference? I stopped praying for other people to change. It used to be, "Please God, let them stop hurting me," or "Show them that I am right". Today I focus on what I can change instead. I ask for a new way of thinking about the situation.
I keep in mind whatever is bothering me when I say the Serenity Prayer. What is that I need to accept or change? I seek the wisdom to follow through with what I learn. Finally, I pray that the person in question be given the serenity, love, and joy that I want for myself. We all deserve that.
Today's Reminder
Resentments mark the places where I see myself as a victim. I want to let them go because they cost me too much. I will love myself enough to release myself from the closet in which resentments keep me locked.
"If we want to stop the vicious cycle of unhappiness, we must learn new ways of living, new ways of relating to each other."
@ourself said:
I have to say I'm at a loss as well. You seem to be saying that healing equates to aversion of suffering.
Suffering can only be properly understood if it is fully experienced - our usual tendency is to push it way, deny it, want to get rid of it.
You can just use Buddhist practice as therapy or healing but it's so much more than that.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
What's the difference between the understanding of someone who has 'fully experienced' bereavement, and somebody who has 'fully experienced' emotional abuse?
Surely going through the experience and seeing it for what it is, doesn't prevent it happening.... you process it and deal with it accordingly....
I'm not sure what you mean by 'properly understood'....
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SarahTTime ... space ... joySouth Coast, UKVeteran
Have discovered a rich vein of quotes!
Then it was as if I suddenly saw the secret beauty of their hearts,
the depths of their hearts where neither sin nor desire nor self-knowledge can reach,
the core of their reality, the person that each one is in the eyes of the Divine.
If only they could all see themselves as they really are.
If only we could see each other that way all the time.
There would be no more war, no more hatred, no more cruelty, no more greed. …
I suppose the big problem would be that we would fall down and worship each other.
@federica said:
What's the difference between the understanding of someone who has 'fully experienced' bereavement, and somebody who has 'fully experienced' emotional abuse?
I'm not talking about coming to terms with past trauma, I'm talking about how we react to present experience. Do some further reading on the First Noble Truth if you don't understand what I mean.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited December 2014
You don't get my drift, just as I don't get yours..... Ok, forget I asked.
In 1991 an armed robber murdered my twin brother. In my heart I carried hate for the killer (never apprehended). After a while I managed to let go of my anger & hatred. I miss my brother very very much, but now I feel sorry for the killer because he has very bad karma.
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@federica said:
Forgiveness doesn't let THEM off the hook. Forgiveness lets US off the hook.
And it's such a NON kum ba ya experience, on the ground. No sentimentality, no metta or mudita, just detachment. Don't use it to give yourself special definition or importance, such as "I am evil for having hateful thoughts!" That's making it a part of you, a definition of you. It isn't. Detaching is never 'not caring'. It is merely not making any 'self' out of the atrocities you witness. I hope that makes sense.
Without getting into details--also, trigger warning--I was sexually assaulted as a teenager by 4 other teens. Their friends cheered them on in the process. I became a bit of a pariah in high school.
I carried an enormous amount of rage, sadness, hatred, guilt, etc. for well over a decade as a result. It probably didn't help that the therapist I was seeing was of the vict-blaming persuasion. (She also was a fan of an emotionally and psychologically abusive boyfriend I had a the time. So, yeah, there's that.) Luckily, I ditched her, found a more *ahem* suitable clinical social worker, received one-on-one and group counseling at the local rape crisis center, etc. I got to a point that I was healed to the point that I could channel my anger by volunteering as a hotline advocate for the rape crisis center I moved to about 7 years ago.
So, all well and good, but I was still carrying around so much rage. Not too long ago, I quietly decided to let it go. I dislike the term "forgive" because it carries a ton of emotional baggage for me due to my Catholic upbringing. "Letting go" seemed far more accurate. It wasn't a case by which I was excusing them or forgetting what they did to me. Not by a long shot. It's not even a case of "getting over" what happened. For me, it was being tired of handling anger that, quite honestly, wasn't even hurting them. I took a hiatus from the hotline, but I still heavily advocate for survivors--and it's rooted in compassion and not anger these days. So, yes, I let myself off the hook because, man, carrying that much rage is incredibly exhausting after 18 years. It was kinda the gift you give to yourself.
@SpinyNorman said:
Suffering can only be properly understood if it is fully experienced - our usual tendency is to push it way, deny it, want to get rid of it.
You can just use Buddhist practice as therapy or healing but it's so much more than that.
I am sure that anyone who has been in contact with suffering has experienced it fully, Spiny. Can't speak for others but I, for one, I know I have.
But once you stare at dukkha in the face, and know where it comes from, you scroll down to the third and fourth noble truths in order to proceed to the healing.
Not in a New-agey fashion, but rather you implement a lifestyle conducive to your coming to terms with dukkha.
We don't push it away, we don't deny it, we don't get rid of it, but we don't pay homage to it either: we simply come to terms with it and move on with our lives.
Said and shared so well. From my own experience I feel letting go of the clenching around the experiences is itself painful. Associated with the pain/guilt/shame etc, we often believe we should be 'big' enough to forgive . . .
Some of us are on many levels emotionally scarred or scared. We hold to that pain, to remind ourselves on a deep physical and emotional level.
It is perhaps why I am such a fan of yoga nidra, which releases the tension stored in the body . . .
@Rowan1980 said:
Nerima -How would one differentiate the two, though?
"Letting go" implies finding a way to come to terms with a traumatic event in order to get unstuck from the negative feelings triggered by it (resentment, hatred, anger, guilt), until you can, or even if you sometimes can't, find ways to forgive the perpetrators of the event.
It is about finding a wholesome way to go on living and not getting immobilized in the negative cycle.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@lobster said:Some of us are on many levels emotionally scarred or scared. We hold to that pain, to remind ourselves on a deep physical and emotional level.
It is perhaps why I am such a fan of yoga nidra, which releases the tension stored in the body . . .
> {{{{ cyber hug }}}}
@lobster - I don't suppose you'd care to enlighten us, briefly, on what yoga nidra is?
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
After @Nerima's and @Rowan1980's sad happenings, I was ready to dissolve into a puddle of tears. But then I remind myself about the Middle Way or Path, and suck it up a wee bit and remind myself why Buddha told the children or whomever not to cry. It's not the same thing as being told to 'get over it' in this day and age, though.
I dare say there's a huge lot of us that could cry 24/7, present company included.
@DhammaDragon said:
To those of us who are parents, the ring of words such as "child molesters, abusers, rapers or killers," send our bodies in "fight or flight" mode in ways that even the mention of a Hitler or a Stalin sound like abstractions in comparison.
Those of us who have children know how fragile, innocent, open they are, how much love they need, how much they rely on our protection, how they trust people on the spot.
How can you go ahead and trample on the lives of these tiny beings?
I agree we can try to put ourselves in this people's place, try to understand where they come from, but what if it had been our child that is abused, raped, murdered by one of these men?
You bring up the salient point of how "close" one is to a situation. It is very much like the recent headline about the parents of the young man who shot up the movie theater in Aurora, Colorado in 2012. The headline read, "Our son is not a monster". Yet to many of the 82 casualties, which included 12 dead, several handicapped for life, he is/was a monster.
There is the concept, which is easy to talk about, and then there's walking the walk when one is directly involved.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Suffering can only be properly understood if it is fully experienced - our usual tendency is to push it way, deny it, want to get rid of it.
Who's usual tendency?
Many Buddhists and others tend towards transforming suffering which cannot be done by trying to push it away, deny it or get rid of it. It has to be embraced but not to the point where we leave in the arrow just to spite our own healing.
You can just use Buddhist practice as therapy or healing but it's so much more than that.
Buddha taught the cessation of suffering. What more do you want?
The style of yoga I used to teach did not need to use yoga nidra because when we got to the corpse pose (basically laying on the floor) all you wanted to do is relax . . .
Yoga nidra is an ideal pre-practice to meditation, the scanning procedures can be used in a sitting posture.
It is very common for yogis to fall into a trance like sleep during this practice and it is much akin to hypnosis techniques. Meditation is more about awareness, so not all meditators like techniques such as mantra which can lead to light trance states.
Trance I would suggest can be a skilful means.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
Hey thanks @lobster....I googled earlier today, but found nothing but super-long articles about it. (*)
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@Nerima said:
"Letting go" and forgiving are two different things.
Hmm. For me, letting go is a kind of forgiveness. Like @Rowan1980 said about her experience, she got so tired of 'handling' the anger. Which I imagine to mean is similar to my experience of detaching from it, it's not front and center and I don't define who I am with it. It happened, and sometimes things are so awful that you can't 'get over' them either. But over time, you learn to co-exist with what happened. It's not a 'now' sort of thing, it's a 'it happened to me a while ago' sort of thing. It has it's place in the timeline of my life. It changed me. But so did a lot of other things, including the successes. They changed me too.
It is very much like the recent headline about the parents of the young man who shot up the movie theater in Aurora, Colorado in 2012. The headline read, "Our son is not a monster". Yet to many of the 82 casualties, which included 12 dead, several handicapped for life, he is/was a monster. @vinlyn
Forgiving has a specific Christian meaning to me. It is connected to sin. The heart of Christian belief is that we are all sinners and need to be forgiven by God and by each other. It is about cleansing the soul.
I think in Buddhism the focus is different; it is about (kusala or akusala) actions. One hell of a “forgiving” thing is to not identify a person with some of his or her actions.
The parents are right; their son is not a monster. His action was horribly harmful; they’ll agree; but the act does not identify their son; the kid they raised and love.
Buddhism – I think – is brilliantly pragmatic. I may be entitled to my anger when I am hurt; but does that help me? The pragmatic question is whether it will make me happy or not to be stuck in that anger.
If on the other hand anger (or a forceful statement, a punch in the face) can help me or someone else to break through something and ultimately be happier; it’s a good thing. There’s nothing dogmatic about it; it’s pragmatic.
@vinlyn said:
There is the concept, which is easy to talk about, and then there's walking the walk when one is directly involved.
I think that's a bit the nutshell of the thread.
Of course, ideally we should be full of compassion and loving-kindness towards every sentient being, no matter how vile we consider his actions to be.
But talking is easier when we don't actually find ourselves in the receiving end of that person's unskillful actions.
That's why I find these hypothetical situations downright useless.
We can't know how we'll feel until we actually find ourselves in the given situation.
@Hamsaka said:
For me, letting go is a kind of forgiveness.
Yes and no.
It takes people many years to recover from a traumatic event coerced by someone else.
They might not bring themselves to forgive the perpetrators, even think about them for a long while, but they understand that "letting go" of the hurt, even if actually forgiving the person is not yet possible, is mandatory in their own healing.
You are letting go of all the negative feelings that rot you from inside, and forgiveness will eventually come or not, but at least your realize that for your own sake you have to let go of the situation.
That's why in metta meditation, sending metta towards people towards you have very strong feelings of aversion comes last.
You are not always ready to forgive, even if you know you have to let go.
@ourself said:
I wouldn't seek to kill the killer/rapist that has harmed my family out of revenge. On the other hand, if they are not stopped they will likely do it again.
What will lead to the least amount of harm, killing them or letting them continue?
Killing them may be the most compassionate choice for all concerned.
But according to Buddhism people are supposed to be born again, so how can killing a rapist solve the problem in a Buddhist perspective? If he doesn't change his mind and gains compassion he may do it again in his next life.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
I don't think the individual being reborn is the same individual that passed. I doubt any newborn infant has any preconceived notions about the world but may in time have sparks of memory.
I would and have intervene if I can help someone being victimized but revenge is something else. I wouldn't kill an abuser except in the worst case scenario where it is either the abuser or the abused/ the abuser and myself.
I would hope I wouldn't seek revenge on a person that bad things to my family but I think I can rest assured that if I did go off the deep end and hunt them down, I would more than likely only cripple them.
I don't think the individual being reborn is the same individual that passed. I doubt any newborn infant has any preconceived notions about the world but may in time have sparks of memory.
I would and have intervene if I can help someone being victimized but revenge is something else. I wouldn't kill an abuser except in the worst case scenario where it is either the abuser or the abused/ the abuser and myself.
I would hope I wouldn't seek revenge on a person that bad things to my family but I think I can rest assured that if I did go off the deep end and hunt them down, I would more than likely only cripple them.
This being totaly off-topic but your first paragraph has raised me the question of how karma works. Our original mind ´being pure, what is it in us that perpetuates karma, what is the vessel through which karma is transported from one birth to the other?
I have the idea of having read in a book from the Dalai Lama that our actions are printed in our mind and our mind unconsciously creates the conditions for karma to take place.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited December 2014
You're confusing 'rebirth' with reincarnation'.
Only Tibetan Buddhists prescribe to the idea of a recognisable self being perpetuated into a future recognised being.
And that is only applicable to elevated Lamas, such as HHDL or others of his ilk.
Everyone else dies, and is reborn, but never as themselves again....
@federica said:
You're confusing 'rebirth' with reincarnation'.
Only Tibetan Buddhists prescribe to the idea of a recognisable self being perpetuated into a future recognised being.
And that is only applicable to elevated Lamas, such as HHDL or others of his ilk.
Everyone else dies, and is reborn, but never as themselves again....
But don't people carry a karma and habits to the next life? I was under the impression that according to the HHDL these were imprinted in the mind that would travel to its next birth.
I thought the word (re)incarnation was reserved for gods in the Eastern religions?
Only now I noticed the link I will read it.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
No, it's also applicable to High lamas in the Tibetan tradition.
Different schools of Buddhism have different views, but no discernible, distinguishable person is re-born, as that person. There is a stream of consciousness-energy that transmigrates, but not as WanMin, or federica, or ourself.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited December 2014
The Dalai lama was once asked: If you are reincarnated, how come you cannot remember your past life?
He replied:
Can you remember what you were doing 12 days before your 9th birthday?
No, of course not!
If we cannot remember what we did in this life, why is it so odd that we cannot remember past lives??
If you wish to know what you were, look at your body, now.
If you wish to know what you will be, look at your MInd, now.
@federica said:
The Dalai lama was once asked: If you are reincarnated, how come you cannot remember your past life?
He replied:
Can you remember what you were doing 12 days before your 9th birthday?
No, of course not!
If we cannot remember what we did in this life, why is it so odd that we cannot remember past lives??
If you wish to know what you were, look at your body, now.
If you wish to know what you will be, look at your MInd, now.
Lets look at things one by one. From what I read in your link some traditions may not believe in rebirth. So lets exclude them since there is no karma or consciousness to migrate according to those.
Second according to your link and yourself
:At death this stream of mental energy is re-established in a new body.
So independently of a person being recognisable in his next life there is something that travels and carries information to the next life which is consistent with what I remember reading.
Now lets move to HHDL citation. Didn't he remember objects that he used in his previous life in order to be identified as the DL? Isn't it writen somewhere that attaining enlightenment one remembers his past lives?
Not remembering is not the same as the information not being there it can be registered but you are not able to access it or you may distort and remember it wrongly but it doesn't mean the correct information isn't there somewhere and one day you may not access it completely.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@WanMin said: Now lets move to HHDL citation. Didn't he remeber objects that he used in his previous life in order to be identified as the DL? Isn't it writen somewhere that attaining enlightenment one remembers his past lives?
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This test of memory is carried out on a prospective Tulku before they reach their 3rd birthday. It is imperative to find the Tulku before then, because otherwise, certain remembered traits begin to fade, and disappear altogether, and the Tulku gradually loses all connection with their previous incarnation.
Loss of memory is not uncommon, and in children is hardly surprising.
perhaps he DOES remember his past lives, but chooses to not focus on Then, but to concentrate on Now. Just as we are advised to do.
Keeping one foot in the past and attempting to maintain it, holds us back and impedes progress. There is no point in harking back, when so much of 'ahead' awaits.... that's where the work lies.
Not remembering is not the same as the information not being there it can be registered but you are not able to access it or you may distort and remember it wrongly but it doesn't mean the correct information isn't there somewhere and one day you may not access it completely.
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irrelevant.
It is of no consequence. What matters is what you do with your experience, not where it comes from.
@federica said:
It is of no consequence. What matters is what you do with your experience, not where it comes from.
Well the point of this discussion was just to assert how karma and habits could travel. If it is imprinted in the mind and there is a stream of information from one life to the other it is explained. As far as I remember reading the memory of actions is imprinted in the mind and the mind unconsciously puts the person in the situation for karma to manifest itself. So the person doesn't even need to remember anything.
But lets move on since another quote has raised me a question too:
No, it's also applicable to High lamas in the Tibetan tradition.
I always imagined the word incarnation was reserved to gods in the East because they came from a different plane of existence and probably choosed to incarnate. For humans was (re)birth because humans would be migrating in this plane of existence (I'm under the impression humans can also be born again as gods in Buddhism). But what distinguishes High Lamas from the rest of us so they incarnate and regular people are born again?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Hmm, I can't copy/paste your post! Where's the Glitchmaster?
You and I are very much on the same page with 'letting go is part of forgiveness'. What you wrote (that I cannot copy/paste) fleshes out some good stuff.
"Letting go" is a leg of the journey, or a milestone maybe. It's not 'forgiveness' but a component of whatever healing process occurs. My 'coercive' experience was a very bad time in my life, but in the great scheme of things I got off easy. Even so, some of what happened is impossible to forgive. At least so far.
But letting go of it is compassion for myself, a la Federica's post.
I wonder if some acts are ever forgivable or if forgiveness is even skillful.
We all use the same word, 'forgiveness' but each of us have slightly different underlying beliefs about what forgiveness IS. What it 'looks like on the ground', in real everyday life.
We're always trying to explain ourselves in hopes of being understood by each other. At this level, it's like we aren't quite speaking the same language, because one word has different implications for each person.
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Toraldris -`-,-{@ Zen Nud... Buddhist @}-,-`- East Coast, USAVeteran
edited December 2014
The stream is a metaphor. I'd explain further but I'm not good at it. The best I can say is that our entire existence isn't the stream... it's the one ever-changing moment. The stream's just showing us causality; how past, present and future are connected right there. There's nothing storing anything, there's only change and the potential for change.
I understand that the tangible world we live in is impermanent and so are we and for this reason we have no real self instituted existence we can cling to. Yesterday me is not exactly today me or future me. It is a bit as I interpret Parmenides' "being" and "non being". The being has to be one and eternal, so what we see is non being. But the problem is from what I read from HHDL these things still exist even if not in an independent permanent manner and since from what I understand karmic retribution can be channeled for spiritual development, understanding these things may not be a completely bad idea.
And putting both together we may come to the conclusion that is better to reap the fruits of good karma in the form of self development rather material return since the material is impermanent. Just a thought.
I should guess your answer to the issue of rebirth will have to be on permanent hold, unless you can settle for one of two answers.
Either you believe. Either you don't. Can you prove any of both points? Good luck with that one!
I have often quoted Phra Payutto's alternative to affirmation or rejection of the theory of rebirth, but will do it once more, since it is the one I settle for until I can come up with a more satisfactory answer:
"The Dhamma teachings of Lord Buddha aim at practical results; he wants everyone to take charge of life in this world starting from the present moment on. [...] If there is any speculation regarding a life after this one, then seriously set your mind on making this life the way you want your next life to be. Build your confidence to the point that you are not worried about the next life at all."
The past is over. Past choices, if anything, got you where you are.
What are you going to do about your present choices?
What do you want your present to be like? Your future to be like?
The whole point of the rebirth debate is to highlight the importance of the present moment, and how your choices can be the causes of the effects you observe in your life, or the causes of the effects you want to see.
I'm stumped as to how we managed to make a thread about hatred towards evil people yet one more debate on rebirth.
I know I'm late in this discussion, but I don't believe that evil people exist. There are just evil thoughts.
As to getting slapped, go work in an old folks' home and you'll get used to it. You won't be fearful or resentful, since they know not what they do. Didn't both Jesus and Buddha (in his own way) say so?
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
In other words, forgive but don't forget. But to forgive IS to let them of the hook. We don't seek justice anymore. That is true letting go
For that to happen, the other person has to stop slapping us first! The trick is how not to harbour hatred/fear while still getting slapped.
I think that's an awful lot to ask of yourself. I can just imagine a Zen master counseling someone who says "How can I avoid harboring hatred and fear while I'm being slapped?"
He'd say "Don't get slapped". Even the Zen masters intuited our brains initiate fight or flight WITHOUT our permission or conscious control.
If you can't avoid being slapped, why not?
I like how you put it in your first sentence, true letting go is not continuing to seek 'justice'. We've all known people who seek justice past all things reasonable. They are firmly on the hook. Letting go means (to them) letting go of something precious and cherished -- their wounding. Not easy but eventually necessary.
Comments
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I have to agree, only because societies pretty much everywhere have a horrendous habit of being in collusion by just simply sweeping it under the carpet and in essence tell the young that it's a part of the deal of life, and it twists minds and hearts everywhere. (Peeps don't have the courage to stand up and do what's right because they know it could cost them 'everything' (from status up to and including death).
Namaste - Sarah x
Suffering can only be properly understood if it is fully experienced - our usual tendency is to push it way, deny it, want to get rid of it.
You can just use Buddhist practice as therapy or healing but it's so much more than that.
What's the difference between the understanding of someone who has 'fully experienced' bereavement, and somebody who has 'fully experienced' emotional abuse?
Surely going through the experience and seeing it for what it is, doesn't prevent it happening.... you process it and deal with it accordingly....
I'm not sure what you mean by 'properly understood'....
Have discovered a rich vein of quotes!
-- Thomas Merton
http://palousemindfulness.com/graduates/2013-04.html
I'm not talking about coming to terms with past trauma, I'm talking about how we react to present experience. Do some further reading on the First Noble Truth if you don't understand what I mean.
You don't get my drift, just as I don't get yours..... Ok, forget I asked.
Lovely site, @SarahT!
In 1991 an armed robber murdered my twin brother. In my heart I carried hate for the killer (never apprehended). After a while I managed to let go of my anger & hatred. I miss my brother very very much, but now I feel sorry for the killer because he has very bad karma.
And it's such a NON kum ba ya experience, on the ground. No sentimentality, no metta or mudita, just detachment. Don't use it to give yourself special definition or importance, such as "I am evil for having hateful thoughts!" That's making it a part of you, a definition of you. It isn't. Detaching is never 'not caring'. It is merely not making any 'self' out of the atrocities you witness. I hope that makes sense.
I carried an enormous amount of rage, sadness, hatred, guilt, etc. for well over a decade as a result. It probably didn't help that the therapist I was seeing was of the vict-blaming persuasion. (She also was a fan of an emotionally and psychologically abusive boyfriend I had a the time. So, yeah, there's that.) Luckily, I ditched her, found a more *ahem* suitable clinical social worker, received one-on-one and group counseling at the local rape crisis center, etc. I got to a point that I was healed to the point that I could channel my anger by volunteering as a hotline advocate for the rape crisis center I moved to about 7 years ago.
So, all well and good, but I was still carrying around so much rage. Not too long ago, I quietly decided to let it go. I dislike the term "forgive" because it carries a ton of emotional baggage for me due to my Catholic upbringing. "Letting go" seemed far more accurate. It wasn't a case by which I was excusing them or forgetting what they did to me. Not by a long shot. It's not even a case of "getting over" what happened. For me, it was being tired of handling anger that, quite honestly, wasn't even hurting them. I took a hiatus from the hotline, but I still heavily advocate for survivors--and it's rooted in compassion and not anger these days. So, yes, I let myself off the hook because, man, carrying that much rage is incredibly exhausting after 18 years. It was kinda the gift you give to yourself.
Good for you. Carrying that kind of baggage can ruin your life and you were able to overcome it. Now that is something to rejoice.
You can just use Buddhist practice as therapy or healing but it's so much more than that.
I am sure that anyone who has been in contact with suffering has experienced it fully, Spiny. Can't speak for others but I, for one, I know I have.
But once you stare at dukkha in the face, and know where it comes from, you scroll down to the third and fourth noble truths in order to proceed to the healing.
Not in a New-agey fashion, but rather you implement a lifestyle conducive to your coming to terms with dukkha.
We don't push it away, we don't deny it, we don't get rid of it, but we don't pay homage to it either: we simply come to terms with it and move on with our lives.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/waytoend.html
http://www.buddhanet.net/4noble16.htm
Bravo.
Said and shared so well. From my own experience I feel letting go of the clenching around the experiences is itself painful. Associated with the pain/guilt/shame etc, we often believe we should be 'big' enough to forgive . . .
Some of us are on many levels emotionally scarred or scared. We hold to that pain, to remind ourselves on a deep physical and emotional level.
It is perhaps why I am such a fan of yoga nidra, which releases the tension stored in the body . . .
"Letting go" implies finding a way to come to terms with a traumatic event in order to get unstuck from the negative feelings triggered by it (resentment, hatred, anger, guilt), until you can, or even if you sometimes can't, find ways to forgive the perpetrators of the event.
It is about finding a wholesome way to go on living and not getting immobilized in the negative cycle.
It is perhaps why I am such a fan of yoga nidra, which releases the tension stored in the body . . .
{{{{ cyber hug }}}} 
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@Rowan1980 That was an awesome share...
@lobster - I don't suppose you'd care to enlighten us, briefly, on what yoga nidra is?
After @Nerima's and @Rowan1980's sad happenings, I was ready to dissolve into a puddle of tears. But then I remind myself about the Middle Way or Path, and suck it up a wee bit and remind myself why Buddha told the children or whomever not to cry. It's not the same thing as being told to 'get over it' in this day and age, though.
I dare say there's a huge lot of us that could cry 24/7, present company included.
You bring up the salient point of how "close" one is to a situation. It is very much like the recent headline about the parents of the young man who shot up the movie theater in Aurora, Colorado in 2012. The headline read, "Our son is not a monster". Yet to many of the 82 casualties, which included 12 dead, several handicapped for life, he is/was a monster.
There is the concept, which is easy to talk about, and then there's walking the walk when one is directly involved.
Who's usual tendency?
Many Buddhists and others tend towards transforming suffering which cannot be done by trying to push it away, deny it or get rid of it. It has to be embraced but not to the point where we leave in the arrow just to spite our own healing.
Buddha taught the cessation of suffering. What more do you want?
@silver Yoga Nidra practice example:
http://www.yogajournal.com/article/practice-section/10-steps-of-yoga-nidra/
The style of yoga I used to teach did not need to use yoga nidra because when we got to the corpse pose (basically laying on the floor) all you wanted to do is relax . . .
Yoga nidra is an ideal pre-practice to meditation, the scanning procedures can be used in a sitting posture.
It is very common for yogis to fall into a trance like sleep during this practice and it is much akin to hypnosis techniques. Meditation is more about awareness, so not all meditators like techniques such as mantra which can lead to light trance states.
Trance I would suggest can be a skilful means.
Hey thanks @lobster....I googled earlier today, but found nothing but super-long articles about it. (*)
Hmm. For me, letting go is a kind of forgiveness. Like @Rowan1980 said about her experience, she got so tired of 'handling' the anger. Which I imagine to mean is similar to my experience of detaching from it, it's not front and center and I don't define who I am with it. It happened, and sometimes things are so awful that you can't 'get over' them either. But over time, you learn to co-exist with what happened. It's not a 'now' sort of thing, it's a 'it happened to me a while ago' sort of thing. It has it's place in the timeline of my life. It changed me. But so did a lot of other things, including the successes. They changed me too.
Forgiving has a specific Christian meaning to me. It is connected to sin. The heart of Christian belief is that we are all sinners and need to be forgiven by God and by each other. It is about cleansing the soul.
I think in Buddhism the focus is different; it is about (kusala or akusala) actions. One hell of a “forgiving” thing is to not identify a person with some of his or her actions.
The parents are right; their son is not a monster. His action was horribly harmful; they’ll agree; but the act does not identify their son; the kid they raised and love.
Buddhism – I think – is brilliantly pragmatic. I may be entitled to my anger when I am hurt; but does that help me? The pragmatic question is whether it will make me happy or not to be stuck in that anger.
If on the other hand anger (or a forceful statement, a punch in the face) can help me or someone else to break through something and ultimately be happier; it’s a good thing. There’s nothing dogmatic about it; it’s pragmatic.
I think that's a bit the nutshell of the thread.
Of course, ideally we should be full of compassion and loving-kindness towards every sentient being, no matter how vile we consider his actions to be.
But talking is easier when we don't actually find ourselves in the receiving end of that person's unskillful actions.
That's why I find these hypothetical situations downright useless.
We can't know how we'll feel until we actually find ourselves in the given situation.
Yes and no.
It takes people many years to recover from a traumatic event coerced by someone else.
They might not bring themselves to forgive the perpetrators, even think about them for a long while, but they understand that "letting go" of the hurt, even if actually forgiving the person is not yet possible, is mandatory in their own healing.
You are letting go of all the negative feelings that rot you from inside, and forgiveness will eventually come or not, but at least your realize that for your own sake you have to let go of the situation.
That's why in metta meditation, sending metta towards people towards you have very strong feelings of aversion comes last.
You are not always ready to forgive, even if you know you have to let go.
But according to Buddhism people are supposed to be born again, so how can killing a rapist solve the problem in a Buddhist perspective? If he doesn't change his mind and gains compassion he may do it again in his next life.
I don't think the individual being reborn is the same individual that passed. I doubt any newborn infant has any preconceived notions about the world but may in time have sparks of memory.
I would and have intervene if I can help someone being victimized but revenge is something else. I wouldn't kill an abuser except in the worst case scenario where it is either the abuser or the abused/ the abuser and myself.
I would hope I wouldn't seek revenge on a person that bad things to my family but I think I can rest assured that if I did go off the deep end and hunt them down, I would more than likely only cripple them.
This being totaly off-topic but your first paragraph has raised me the question of how karma works. Our original mind ´being pure, what is it in us that perpetuates karma, what is the vessel through which karma is transported from one birth to the other?
I have the idea of having read in a book from the Dalai Lama that our actions are printed in our mind and our mind unconsciously creates the conditions for karma to take place.
You're confusing 'rebirth' with reincarnation'.
Only Tibetan Buddhists prescribe to the idea of a recognisable self being perpetuated into a future recognised being.
And that is only applicable to elevated Lamas, such as HHDL or others of his ilk.
Everyone else dies, and is reborn, but never as themselves again....
But don't people carry a karma and habits to the next life? I was under the impression that according to the HHDL these were imprinted in the mind that would travel to its next birth.
I thought the word (re)incarnation was reserved for gods in the Eastern religions?
Only now I noticed the link I will read it.
No, it's also applicable to High lamas in the Tibetan tradition.
Different schools of Buddhism have different views, but no discernible, distinguishable person is re-born, as that person. There is a stream of consciousness-energy that transmigrates, but not as WanMin, or federica, or ourself.
The Dalai lama was once asked: If you are reincarnated, how come you cannot remember your past life?
He replied:
Can you remember what you were doing 12 days before your 9th birthday?
No, of course not!
If we cannot remember what we did in this life, why is it so odd that we cannot remember past lives??
If you wish to know what you were, look at your body, now.
If you wish to know what you will be, look at your MInd, now.
Lets look at things one by one. From what I read in your link some traditions may not believe in rebirth. So lets exclude them since there is no karma or consciousness to migrate according to those.
Second according to your link and yourself
So independently of a person being recognisable in his next life there is something that travels and carries information to the next life which is consistent with what I remember reading.
Now lets move to HHDL citation. Didn't he remember objects that he used in his previous life in order to be identified as the DL? Isn't it writen somewhere that attaining enlightenment one remembers his past lives?
Not remembering is not the same as the information not being there it can be registered but you are not able to access it or you may distort and remember it wrongly but it doesn't mean the correct information isn't there somewhere and one day you may not access it completely.
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This test of memory is carried out on a prospective Tulku before they reach their 3rd birthday. It is imperative to find the Tulku before then, because otherwise, certain remembered traits begin to fade, and disappear altogether, and the Tulku gradually loses all connection with their previous incarnation.
Loss of memory is not uncommon, and in children is hardly surprising.
perhaps he DOES remember his past lives, but chooses to not focus on Then, but to concentrate on Now. Just as we are advised to do.
Keeping one foot in the past and attempting to maintain it, holds us back and impedes progress. There is no point in harking back, when so much of 'ahead' awaits.... that's where the work lies.
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irrelevant.
It is of no consequence. What matters is what you do with your experience, not where it comes from.
Well the point of this discussion was just to assert how karma and habits could travel. If it is imprinted in the mind and there is a stream of information from one life to the other it is explained. As far as I remember reading the memory of actions is imprinted in the mind and the mind unconsciously puts the person in the situation for karma to manifest itself. So the person doesn't even need to remember anything.
But lets move on since another quote has raised me a question too:
I always imagined the word incarnation was reserved to gods in the East because they came from a different plane of existence and probably choosed to incarnate. For humans was (re)birth because humans would be migrating in this plane of existence (I'm under the impression humans can also be born again as gods in Buddhism). But what distinguishes High Lamas from the rest of us so they incarnate and regular people are born again?
You will have to ask a Tibetan Lama that.
Answer on hold then.
Hmm, I can't copy/paste your post! Where's the Glitchmaster?
You and I are very much on the same page with 'letting go is part of forgiveness'. What you wrote (that I cannot copy/paste) fleshes out some good stuff.
"Letting go" is a leg of the journey, or a milestone maybe. It's not 'forgiveness' but a component of whatever healing process occurs. My 'coercive' experience was a very bad time in my life, but in the great scheme of things I got off easy. Even so, some of what happened is impossible to forgive. At least so far.
But letting go of it is compassion for myself, a la Federica's post.
I wonder if some acts are ever forgivable or if forgiveness is even skillful.
We all use the same word, 'forgiveness' but each of us have slightly different underlying beliefs about what forgiveness IS. What it 'looks like on the ground', in real everyday life.
We're always trying to explain ourselves in hopes of being understood by each other. At this level, it's like we aren't quite speaking the same language, because one word has different implications for each person.
The stream is a metaphor. I'd explain further but I'm not good at it.
The best I can say is that our entire existence isn't the stream... it's the one ever-changing moment. The stream's just showing us causality; how past, present and future are connected right there. There's nothing storing anything, there's only change and the potential for change.
That's not true. I'm sure you think it is, but it isn't.
In fact, wouldn't you say bringing different traditions view on rebirth kinda, way-off topic?
I understand that the tangible world we live in is impermanent and so are we and for this reason we have no real self instituted existence we can cling to. Yesterday me is not exactly today me or future me. It is a bit as I interpret Parmenides' "being" and "non being". The being has to be one and eternal, so what we see is non being. But the problem is from what I read from HHDL these things still exist even if not in an independent permanent manner and since from what I understand karmic retribution can be channeled for spiritual development, understanding these things may not be a completely bad idea.
And putting both together we may come to the conclusion that is better to reap the fruits of good karma in the form of self development rather material return since the material is impermanent. Just a thought.
I should guess your answer to the issue of rebirth will have to be on permanent hold, unless you can settle for one of two answers.
Either you believe. Either you don't. Can you prove any of both points? Good luck with that one!
I have often quoted Phra Payutto's alternative to affirmation or rejection of the theory of rebirth, but will do it once more, since it is the one I settle for until I can come up with a more satisfactory answer:
The past is over. Past choices, if anything, got you where you are.
What are you going to do about your present choices?
What do you want your present to be like? Your future to be like?
The whole point of the rebirth debate is to highlight the importance of the present moment, and how your choices can be the causes of the effects you observe in your life, or the causes of the effects you want to see.
I'm stumped as to how we managed to make a thread about hatred towards evil people yet one more debate on rebirth.
I'm happy to stand corrected. Could you indicate where my mistake lies? I'd be genuinely very glad to be told. Thanks....
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Hey, I'm sorry - you're both right, but don't shoot the piano player, it was @WanMin's fault!!
In other words, forgive but don't forget. But to forgive IS to let them of the hook. We don't seek justice anymore. That is true letting go.
For that to happen, the other person has to stop slapping us first! The trick is how not to harbour hatred/fear while still getting slapped.
I know I'm late in this discussion, but I don't believe that evil people exist. There are just evil thoughts.
As to getting slapped, go work in an old folks' home and you'll get used to it. You won't be fearful or resentful, since they know not what they do. Didn't both Jesus and Buddha (in his own way) say so?
In other words, forgive but don't forget. But to forgive IS to let them of the hook. We don't seek justice anymore. That is true letting go
I think that's an awful lot to ask of yourself. I can just imagine a Zen master counseling someone who says "How can I avoid harboring hatred and fear while I'm being slapped?"
He'd say "Don't get slapped". Even the Zen masters intuited our brains initiate fight or flight WITHOUT our permission or conscious control.
If you can't avoid being slapped, why not?
I like how you put it in your first sentence, true letting go is not continuing to seek 'justice'. We've all known people who seek justice past all things reasonable. They are firmly on the hook. Letting go means (to them) letting go of something precious and cherished -- their wounding. Not easy but eventually necessary.