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May as well give up?
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I just didn't see that question as relevant to the discussion.
But... Never the less because your curious.
Well initially when I first saw not self I had a heap of depressive thoughts arise for about 3 days. Lots of confusion but there was a undercurrent of it's ok. My wife was a bit worried to be honest. She thought Buddhism makes people happy she said haha.
That was a few months ago, all is well now. I have new lease on life with my baby on the way! Family is really good. Except pregnancy is giving her a few interesting side effects.
How is your life going? I hope you are well. I remember you saying you had a rough patch a while ago.
No, there was a rough patch.
I rose above it....
Yay! Up and onwards
'they' sure seem know it all...
What do you think?
I've never met a drunk that become enlightended....did you personally?
Did you experience the shift in others yourself?
I've found that a sound (experiential) 'understanding' of anatta goes along way in stress relief (well for the psycho-physical phenomenon called 'I' it does) ....
Anyhow back to basics...
Thus I have heard that the Buddha said "This...." ...Thus I have also heard that the Buddha said "That...." ....Thus I have heard a modern day summery of what the Buddha 'did' say and that was "Get Over YourSelf!" ...that is to say if one can let go of the concept of an abiding self there will be no more hang ups, ie no 'thing' to hang things on to... (The skeleton hands representing the crown with four fingers pointing upwards says it all really
)
Please don't clip on the link if you're going to take things too personally... (it's not rude BTW)
Eckhart Tolle is an example of someone who was going to kill himself and woke up.
I feel they are onto to something, because they talk about the shift in poetic terms but also in plain words. They don't try and sell any ideas to anyone. Just expressing life as joy. It was an eye opener for me.
I'm not expecting people to agree with this. I'm just putting an idea across to consider.
@federica according to Tibetan Buddhism there are multiple (3) turnings to the wheel of dharma. Not-self is the second turning. I think the first turning is like in the Pali sutras maybe the eightfold path?? End to stress?? I don't know. I am just pointing out that the heart sutra is not joking when it says no attainment/path etc.
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Three_Turnings
That is a relevant question.
Some drunks, the intoxicated and those in pain undergo a deep ability to remain 'in the moment/present'. I have met crazy people and drunks who have wisdom based on insanity and alcohol dependence. It is a severely limited and partial 'wisdom'.
Some people mentioning no names [ ahem @Earthninja ] feel that a minor insight such as created by this group is of great import ...
http://liberationunleashed.com
The group specialise in getting through to a realisation of no abiding self, experientially. Yep good, next ...
Cool. Good. Nice. Some sufis spend decades here ...
Some poets, artists and those undergoing 'sport samadhi' attain a condition of ego loss. I have done this briefly through intense martial arts practice.
http://www.ru.org/sports/spirituality-the-hidden-side-of-sports.html
Others undergo and make a 'mystical' career from mystical psychosis
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystical_psychosis
A changed or altered perception is just that. Nothing to do with enlightenment but easily adopted by the ego ...
... and now back to the dharma debate poem and other dancing ...
Personally I can't 'vibe' onto what @Earthninja is saying. I don't get it as easily as I understand some other teachers vibes. Here is a link I vibe onto that has to do with non-self. It is Thich Nhat Hanh explaining the diamond sutra. This was a big influence for me right at the beginning in Buddhism 15 years ago which is to say you don't start with turning 1 then 2 then 3 rather you can just appreciate and open to whatever teachings you are attracted to.
https://sites.google.com/site/tnhdhamma/Home/test-list/the-diamond-sutra-part-3-of-4
What I don't like about what @Earthninja is saying is that it is like saying that we should stop practicing. So I don't agree with @Earthninja, but I do think that there is more teachings than the four noble truths.
I'm not saying one should stop practicing, I'm saying this doesn't cause enlightenment according to this group. You can practice if it is of benefit to one.
Like any practice.
If you like walking, just because it doesn't cause enlightenment shouldn't mean you should give up.
I think Trungpa (of all people) called that shunyata poison and said he did not himself trust Buddhists who did not meditate.
I think there are some pieces missing in your understanding (i speculate). I wonder if my teacher would be able to say something helpful? Could she fill in a missing piece?
I don't like to label myself as buddhist
and I still meditate. Not for any purpose outside of itself. It is helpful and creates a peaceful feeling. 
There is definitely pieces missing in my understanding. But it's like falling down a rabbit hole. You know without a doubt you've fallen. Where the ground is well... I don't know if your teacher could help, it depends on the teacher I guess.
it does feel like this is a deconstructing of belief here.
Thanks though
@federica and @oneself.
I may be wrong but I think you're misunderstanding "will" with "control". Giving up control does not mean to give up your will. Only your interpretation of the will changes.
So it doesn't mean that you'll be a zombie or robot at all. More like the opposite.
The way I see it, Buddhist practice is simply a reconditioning of the mind, it doesn't guarantee enlightenment, but a properly conditioned mind is more likely to become enlightened.
No hard feelings...
No hard feelings at all because that's what we are saying too. A properly conditioned mind is more likely to awaken than one that just hopes for clarity without doing any work towards that end.
Nobody said the Buddhist process is guaranteed to make you become enlightened. I don't even think that word covers a complete awakening.
To properly condition your mind is exerting control. To let it be uncontrolled means there are no guiding principles.
Think about what it would mean to have will but no control over exercising it. Sounds miserable.
May just as well go to prison.
Maybe it's better to let go of control after properly conditioning the mind because it's hard to condition the mind when you have no control over the monkey that's now left in charge.
I think this thread is a testament to that.
few days back when i started reading this thread it had few comments. today i saw 80 new comments added. had the courage to open the thread, but seeing the size of scroll-bar decided to just scroll till the bottom with great effort. then finally came to this page and also scrolled it to bottom, just to comment that - can somebody please summarize these 3 page discussions in 2 lines please. i don't have the courage, patience and persistence to read all these 3 pages sorry
, but i don't want to miss on some spice, which rarely arises here within this compassionate, simple, kind-hearted, little-speaking group of people.
^^^ Don't give up the poetry. Share the poetry, the wordless takes care of itself ...
Whether one paddles or prefer to let the wind take them, either way you have to leave it along the shore right?
And we shouldn't be afraid that the raft is just made up of different materials either. It's just there serving its purpose.
This has been an intense discussion, thank you all for your thoughtful replies
It's really great to have so many different perspectives.
Please know that I'm not preaching or saying people must do or not do anything. Just throwing an idea in to contemplate. If this opens up something then great, if not, then great!
I wish you all metta.
I admit I haven't read the entirety of this long thread, but a question came up for me (my apologies if it has been brought up, please tell me and I will find it in the thread)
Someone asked how we know if someone is awakened/enlightened. I was thinking about it, and thought, the only way we have to discern (for the most part) is by reading their books. Most of us have not taken lengthy retreats with Tolle or TNH or the HHDL (only one of which claims they are awakened I believe). But we read their books, and we think they are awakened based on what they say. But when someone else comes here or elsewhere online and claims to be awake, we shut them down pretty fast. What makes people who announce their awakening story in a book more trustworthy than someone who does it online? Why are we so quick to judge those who claim enlightenment as crazy or at minimum say things like "those who are don't feel a need to announce it." But what's the difference if it's online or in a book?
Watching the little bits of info we get about TNH and his recovery, and just his demeanor and his obvious outpouring of love for all, he is as close as I can imagine to someone who might be awakened. Yet he says he is not, he is just a monk. I can't help but think "Well if he's not awake, who is!?" How do we know that Tolle or anyone else defines "awake" the same as we would? He no doubt had an incredible experience, I'm not downplaying that. But other people have had similar experiences and while it changed their life in much the same way, they don't label it as enlightened or awake. So, are they not awakened because they don't define it that way?
There is a joke that goes around saying that if Jesus were to come back to earth now, he'd end up in an asylum because even his believers would think he was crazy to suggest he was Jesus. Are we any different when people come here to suggest their awakening? Would Jesus not announce who he was? Or would he just wait for people to find their way to him? I don't know.
I think that's the problem, people have all sorts of different ideas about what "awake" really means.
And of course people vary in their ability to communicate the experience they've had.
I have my close wide open so iam also awake. Now I will write one book about it and fine poems
Here is a poem I wrote to express my awakening:
Greyhounds are fast,
Greyhounds can hurry,
Which is how they avoid
Being in Chinese curry.
Alsatians are fierce
They bark loudly too,
Which is how they avoid
Being in Irish stew.
Of course you are right. Personally that is not what I take issue with.
Saying something like "Meditation did not help me with my awakening" is all fine and good. I would take anyone on their word on this.
Saying something like "Meditation will not help you with awakening" is just dogma and so it calls their understanding out.
For sure. That is one thing in all areas of life I have such a major problem with. That people don't understand that their experience, the perspective doesn't necessarily apply to others. That they don't understand that exactly shows their lack of understanding. Nutrition, exercise, parenting, reading, music, games. Literally just about anything in life you find the majority of people who say "I did this, it worked, therefore it will work for you and I won't listen to what you said works for you because you are wrong." It drives me crazy. People who can't see past their limited perspective.
Exactly.
So as soon as I hear somebody say that no amount of meditation will help or has ever helped anyone awaken, I know I am dealing with a charlatan.
Might as well tell me that as a matter of fact Jesus died for my sins.
Wow, you are so sure you are right.
You "know" you are dealing with charlatans.
But you have no beliefs either. Like you said.
Everything in our life we have to work for, and enlightenment must be the hardest thing to work for. . . Or is it?
Whilst believing we are someone we will always feel separate. You can't have a someone experiencing oneness permanently. Because that's a persons experience, it will always pass.
As long as we feel like a person, there will always be the "other" there will always be a person trying to do or achieve something. That striving is what keeps the illusion alive.
Enlightenment is not freedom for the ego, it's freedom from it - Mooji
Of course they are charlatans. How else would they be able to claim what works for everybody and that meditation works for nobody?
I am not the one with the claim and it isn't about me being right, it's about a bullshit claim.
Do they have proof that meditation doesn't work for anyone?
You can keep repeating it but it doesn't make it so.
And why bring up ego?
Is that what this is all about then?
When people have a single perspective that takes the form of "I did this. It worked. Whatever you do isn't what I did and therefore it will not work" I have a pretty hard time taking them seriously if they claimed "oneness" and "freedom" and "enlightement" or whatever else they are claiming. Buddhism or not, I fully believe that attachments to things cause us problems, it causes us separation. Especially attachment to our views and our ways. If someone cannot see that they are attached to their way, then no, I probably won't take their claims of being one and being free seriously. I fully accept that some things are near impossible to put into words. But claiming your way is the only way is not one of those things.
I don't disagree with the possible premise that enlightenment isn't something we have to work and strive for. I am betting when we learn how to truly let go, it comes by itself. It's not a test you are looking to ace or something. But I will always doubt people who claim there is only one way there. Because it seems to me that the "who" that thinks their way is the only right way is exactly the ego speaking, loud and clear.
That said, I think we had a lengthy discussion at one point that involved the whole "oneness" factor not being something Buddha taught. I'm not saying a person can't believe that and still be a Buddhist (I tend to lean that way myself) but I think it was something that came along after Buddha and is part of some teachings now but Buddha himself didn't teach it. I could be remembering wrong though.
"Thus I have heard and so it would seem-
)
we are doing no thing more but living the dream
Now don't be alarmed or should "I" say don't feel forsaken-
with all said and done we're not yet awaken
We might rant and rave and at each other start balking -
when in fact to criticise each other is just sleep talking !"
(If you get my drift
Always good to have ones charlatan status and life confirmed by those who know what they are hearing ...
When prepared to die or awake, such certainty dies and a new deal emerges ... as we charlatans can attest. OK time to meditate - or some such sinning ...
The point is there is no "way" it's certainly something a "person" can
not achieve. They just say that if there is still belief in a separate entity who does anything that perpetuates the belief. What to do? The brain somehow sees it is all a dream. The person is not part of this. There is no preaching of any way. They say what is NOT a way.
Again there is no thinking involved. It's got to come from beyond the person. (Ego)
I'm sure its a byproduct of not seeing any separation with life. You can't teach it, it is felt.
Exactly how does meditating achieve enlightenment? Ask yourself this?
How far must you travel to reach yourself? Isn't meditating to achieve enlightenment a belief?
Why so defensive? Couldn't you put down all your beliefs and consider the possibility that maybe you have been going about this the wrong way for the last 10 years or more? I mean no disrespect. I'm just trying to help but it seems I'm just making you upset
I think science is/has proven there is no self in reality. Choices happen before you are consciously aware of it. So the belief a person who chooses to meditate is an illusion.
I think your and my definitions are different.
My definition is that Ego is the "belief in some sort of entity that hears sounds, sees thoughts, thinks thoughts, makes choices, likes or dislikes, believes or doesn't believe"
If a thought comes up, the one that says I don't like this thought is still the ego!
That's the surprise. It's subtle.
Mall the best mate, I really don't mean you any I'll wishes. If I'm annoying you or upsetting you I'll stop responding.
@Earthninja said "I'm saying this doesn't cause enlightenment according to this group. You can practice if it is of benefit to one"
Ajahn Thanissaro have practiced in 50 years or more, he still wonder what enlightenment really is...
but you have now found a group on internett, that tells you, you cant do nothing, meditation dosent help, you dont need to practice...and they tell you that they have reached enlightenment, without any form of practice, teori, nada..
So what advices do they give to you, when your daily Dukkha knocks on the door?
Some of them did practice for many years, but once they had awoken they realised it was all a dream. The brain finally saw through it's own illusion.
Umm I once asked them this question. They said there's nothing the imaginary person can or can not do to see it is imaginary.
They did say that all lines are imaginary, all ideas of separation are simply ideas. It's only because we believe we are a real character with volition in an alien universe do we suffer.
One person pushed and asked the group, "what can you tell me to help me wake up?"
One replied, "Nothing but all I can say Is love you"
It's only when you realise the one trying to make things a certain way is just a belief, the it unravels itself. - this part was my input.
Metta
@Earthninja "They did say that all lines are imaginary, all ideas of separation are simply ideas"
also called conventions, but it is nessesary, whitout name, language and so on, there are very limited teachings, first we can read and speak about it and then use it in real life.
"It's only when you realise the one trying to make things a certain way is just a belief"
Yes what ever we do there are belief, we choose between a and b, one way is better then the other, I cant see whats wrong with that, we all make decisions according to our belief system and life experience.
I think they are one a diffrent level, if you cant use their teachings in real life, what is the purpose?
its all about trancending suffering, and to do that with out any practice and understandabel teachings I think it will be much harder...
@Earthninja Nebulous is meaning like a loud of gas. The atmosphere of earth is nebulous.
To argue about is meditation required for enlightenment is to me beside the point. You, OP, have reached an understanding partly of mindfulness.
Meditation brings rest from Dukkha when rightly done and practiced until that happens. For lay folk it is just for that for some lay folk.
For those who go further it is like you meditate most of the time, quite naturally. Again, most need practice to reach that stage. When you walk mindful of walking and passing of thoughts while detached from them, you are doing walking meditation.
HTH, to clarify how many think of meditation.
Yes they are conventions but If we believe these lines as reality we are in suffering. You learn to talk, then you believe you are john and that is jack. Then you wake up and realise it's a dream. You can still call yourself john, but you know you are not.
There is no chooser, the choices arise in the brain and then only after the decision is made does the thought arise. "I chose this" I know it feels like we choose between A and B. But if you look closely, there is no moment we can pin down that this choice is made. Even easier than this, is try and find the one who chooses? You can't ever find what doesn't exist. I know this is hard to believe.
They don't teach, they just share the joys of life to each other and tell each other they love them haha. They point but don't teach.
Lessening suffering is achievable through meditation, exercise, positive affirmations, holidays, a purpose in life.
But I believe transcending suffering is accepting everything as one reality. No "I" that suffers.
We don't even have to transcend suffering, because the one who suffers doesn't exist!
The hard part is seeing that, the mind believes it needs an I to survive. Any attempt to try and see this is still the person trying to see it is imaginary.
There has to be so a kind of surrender from the ego, a letting go of trying to control life. But life has to realise this, the ego can't.
What a pickle
Didn't Buddha obtain enlightenment through meditation?
@ourself
To clarify: will without control.
I can only try to describe the feeling to you and I don't claim to be in that state 24/7.
Some people achieve it with exercise ("runner's point "), others with sex, others with dancing, with creating art, with meditation, etc etc. It's that feeling that you're fully focused on what you're doing, your will is fully " there", but somehow things seem to be happening on their own, like you don't need to be doing anything, there's no control.
No control doesn't mean chaos or anarchy; no control means you feel safe enough to let go and let things happen on their own.
The feeling is like you're watching yourself move, like you're not the one moving.
I can't explain it any better than this...
@0student0 Is that what is commonly called 'being in the zone'?
So he could of attained it through Yoga, Asceticism, meditation. Fasting...
I read somewhere Buddha said you need atleast first Jhana before you could even obtain enlightenment.
I can imagine that if this were true all of us would be doing solely concentration meditation. I think people tried this and found it didn't work for everyone so Mahayana was invented. Liberation through other or grace.
I can't speak for the Buddha and there's no doubt he meditated, but he also did lots of other things.
And he lived 2000 years ago, and the books were written by his followers. Who knows what agenda they had. Hence so many different schools and interpretations of what he said.
I can only comment truthfully on what I've seen. I can see the person is an illusion, it's without a doubt. The minute I saw this then all beliefs of someone attaining enlightenment vanished for me. I don't know where this will lead but beliefs are simply falling away.
I have always thought there are other ways to awaken other then meditation living in the west as there are people that seem more progressed spirituality than me who don't meditate. Meditation after all Is only training your mind to think properly for the rest of the time. There is drugs of course that alter the mind and many people work and do flow state activities which I believe is like meditation. I believe there are other ways but I don't know how anyone can say meditation does nothing besides isn't the whole belief in Buddhism and the concept of one awakening or being enlightened based on the Buddha gaining it by meditating? Correct me if I'm wrong.
That's a great point you make, I've also read biographies of people who just have spontaneous awakenings with no meditation background. I've heard of people who have satori through meditation. It doesn't last though. If it's an experience. It passes.
I can't really comment for Buddhism as a whole, it really seems so varied in beliefs. Meditation is certainly up there with the teachings but people also shy away from the Theravada who in my opinion are the big time sitting meditators. I mean I followed a monk who sat for 10 hours everyday. He didn't seem happy to me though haha.
There's the 4nt which don't say anything about meditation and the 8fp ...
But hey I'm not really the best person to ask regarding Buddhism haha.I couldn't correct you bro!
You are not wrong @Mingle you are also correct that the potential of others is very different because of life experiences, opportunities, trauma or other severe alterations of perceptual being.
The path of dharma refrains from drugs apart from some symbolic taboo breaking practices in Tantra. Some paths use temporary intoxication/ecstasy/samadhi as temporary mind fuels.
To give you examples:
However in Buddhism, the most useful, documented and successful practice is meditation.
Meditation is useful, is taught, does create beneficial conditions. Ignorance sometimes means we hear stories and experiences with only partial understanding/skill/wisdom.
Don't worry.. About anything. From what I have learned from Buddhism you shouldn't accept anything on blind faith not even the teachings and especially not some anonymous people on a website, this will give you a headache lol. Buddha said to find it out for yourself after all it is YOUR mind. Don't practice to become enlightened as this is an attachment after all. Even if you practice all day everyday for the rest of your life it may not achieve it. It is a progress that happens over many lifetimes so therefore not your responsibility to worry about it. I'm sure monks meditate for other reasons, Nirvana, stress release, insight... Anything. Don't stress over the final outcome when it is all about the journey itself. It's about right now in the moment, that is what Buddhism is about, don't fret about the other stuff it is to be inspired not learned. Perhaps we are all deluded and are on a wild goose chase it doesn't matter, do what makes you feel fulfillment now. Stay open minded otherwise your beliefs will become rigid and easily break. I have had a few times like yours and let me tell you they have hurt me but in the end made my confidence in Buddhism stronger. I like to think of it this way... A belief system is like a growing stem, when cut that system will reach its dead end but it doesn't stop it simply adapts and grows in another direction.
I hope this helps you, remember don't believe anything just because you are told.
Hey that was really well written and thoughtful.
nice.
The only reason I've carried this thread on for so long is for me it's not a belief.
I know people don't understand and I'm not so eloquent with words but I've experienced enough to know these people maybe onto something.
Again I'm not sure if what they say is true. I brought it here as a possibility to play with.
I really don't know what you guys have experienced or not.
Ok here is a shot. My current experience is this.
There is just one seamless moment. It feels like a dream. The character in it is "chris" there is no separation between chris and room. They are both observed in this moment.
Thoughts may arise and attention turns to the thoughts. None of this was done by "Chris" the thoughts arose and the attention turns.
The typing on this phone is just happening. Nobody doing it. There is still identity that says "Of course it's me, typing on this phone" but that was just a thought. That arose based on conditioned habit.
" I truly don't know who I am or what I am."Both these questions arise but are like a background noise. They don't seem relevant here. There is just awe.
It really feels like a dream. Both the character and the dream are one. Nobody controls it.
This is my current living experience. Not a belief. Anybody resonate with this on this site?
Metta to you guys.
@Earthninja you are right, there is no one at the cockpit. What is making you post and type is your conditioned thoughts that have been created as a repercussion of every thought you have ever had and every action or feeling. Every thought you have unconsciously let arise you have been attached to building this tree of beliefs because you have accepted them as truth. Your thinking I believe is you trying to make sense of everything and trying to make it fit with your beliefs. Perhaps you read something on this forum that knocked you and made you question your whole belief tree because you can't make it fit. Meditation teaches us to see thoughts as thoughts, when we are aware of this your thoughts lose momentum, they stop building. Do you see what I mean. Do you see how your confusion is a repercussion of attachment to thought?
I know exactly what you mean but I don't see a lack of will. Any good artist or athlete knows the "zone".
That is actually a form of control. Because it comes naturally to some doesn't mean it won't take work for others.
let me now ask you a question. Do you think a person can be talked into knowing the zone?