Daily Sutta Discussions:
Carlita
Bastian please! Save us!United States Veteran
(Intro): Avijjapaccaya Sutta
I wanted to see if I can keep this up. I will post new suttas quotes (with their full source) each morning EST. I would like it to where this could be a good early motivation for the day or maybe something to chew on before the night. Feel free to comment.
Some things that you can ask and discuss:
- How does this apply to me and to others?
Discuss different ways we may apply this theme to our day to day life. If private, give ideas of how this theme helps in general.
A lot of sutta themes repeat themselves.
- What other suttas and sutras mirror and maybe emphasis the theme in this daily sutta?
- Are there new thoughts you'd like to add?
- Imagine you are The Buddha yourself. How would you address the audience's questions to which The Buddha asks?
If I dont get to post in the morning it will be up doing the day. If you want to post your time, I can see which is the best. Of course not between 11-8am EST.
Comments and questions to each other are always welcomed.
Nam.
"When, for a disciple of the noble ones, these five forms of fear & animosity are stilled; when he is endowed with these four factors of stream-entry; and when, through discernment, he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out this noble method, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'"
SN 12.35
Avijjapaccaya Sutta
EDIT. Sorry guys. The Vera sutta is in the Anguttara Nikaya (AN) not SN. Typo.
Sutta abreviations will be linked to the daily sutta on accesstoinsight
Following sutras and suttas threads wont have the introductory questions. Refer to this thread to have an idea of what to discuss.
Comments
If you guys want to do weekly so you have time to discuss, or when the discussion thats cool. Throw some ideas. If you want to help out when discussios die l, you dont have to ask.
There is no valid question when asking the extremes "what is aging and death? To ask is not valid when we think either the body and soul separate or one. Its an "empty" question.
What lessons could you learn beyond the basics of clinging and attachments to dichotomy mindset?
I feel questions are valid when they are not asked in curiousity snd learning. Sometimes thats basically why we ask. There is no sense of "find this for yourself" if the questions are intendednm to provoke thought among others. Maybe this sutta is somewhat like a koran.
What say you?
EDIT: This is my comment from the from the Avijjapaccaya Sutta. The link is misplaced in the original post (OP).
To me, that sutta is like the realization before the Bodhisattva vows naturally arise.
It would almost seem like a moment of pride but the proclamation may be important for the distinction to be made between trying and doing.
Maybe a typo or something? This excerpt is from the Vera sutta: AN 10.92.
Odd. It says SN on the link above the title. The sutta is after the commentary.
Unless its a double?
There we go! The site on the original post was the one I originally put up but switched the quote and forgot to switch the reference. Go by Seeker's post: Vera sutta: AN 10.92.
Note to self: Don't do posts 3 a.m. in the morning.
Hmm. How do you mean doing and trying? Maybe Bodhisattva goals are gaining five forms of fear and animosity. I was listening to a Dharma talk last week about meditating on death. A lot of times we meditate on good and peaceful things but not so much on the opposite. I guess it gives perspective of how both sides are equal. In the sutta I accidentally attached, The Buddha says asking either question is invalid.
You think so?
This sutta may be divided into 5 sections:
The sutta doesn't define the higher virtues of ethical conduct, but they can be infered through negations roughly corresponding to positive virtues.
Negative Virtues
Positive Virtues
This sutta implies the restraint of actions producing fear, animosity, pain & despair clears space for cultivating higher virtues conducive to peace and harmony. Coupled with confidence in the Triple Gem, this space holds the soil where wisdom may be grown. More figuritively, it tells how to climb a mountain without falling, mapping the lower trails to the higher trails leading to the peak.
I mean that with the proclamation in the sutta you provided it could sound prideful which goes against seeing past the individual.
I'm not sure I understand the question. Trying is not doing.
I would say the questions are invalid in the sense that they have nothing to do with ending suffering. Whether or not there is something beyond life takes the focus away from living said life.
My problem was the opposite. I contemplated death too much and not so much the positive aspects of existence.
I don't see too much wrong with contemplation as long as I don't conjecture.
I think I understand what you mean. By trying, I mean more of the action of making an attempt at something not yet finished or succeeded. The disciple sounds like he prided himself at the end. I agree pride doesnt end suffering. Maybe there is healthy pride as a result of realization and unhealthy pride related to ego. Contemplation on it would be a good idea especially when decerning the intent of pride (realization or ego) and how to direct it to end suffering.
It’s an interesting sutta... although I find it odd that the four factors leading one to be a stream winner are stated as “verified confidence in” the Buddha / Dharma / Sangha, and unspecified beneficial qualities liked by the ‘noble ones’.
I was under the impression that the buddha’s process was internal, based on the state of realisation of the mind and being. Therefore a belief in externals like a teacher, a teaching and a community should not matter one way or another, nor being liked by the ‘noble ones’.
That's what I mean @Carlita . Like that boast could be a part of the preparation it takes to take on a seemingly impossible task.
I'd imagine the journey doesn't end with awakening.
Pride in the sense of self-confidence would seem important: "That is, the four pairs of persons, the eight types of individuals. This Sanga of the Blessed One's disciples...." A stream-enterer is one of those individuals constituting "this Sanga," in whom other aspirants would place confidence, just as the stream-enterer did.
Mixing meditations on anatomy and death with the brahmaviharas makes a potent cocktail.
Not to be dogmatic, but it can also focus said life, e.g., "'Hell is ended....'"
That doesn't sound dogmatic to me at all.
Very useful analysis from @Snakeskin ...
Dharma pride exists as a concept but it is more akin to confidence/pride/refuge in the three gems.
@David makes some good points
OM MANI PEME HUM
I wondered about that too. Verified? Maybe that is what makes the ostensibly prideful declaration. And perhaps the meaning was lost in translation. Glimpsing the goal oneself verifies faith, replacing it with confidence, hence the stream that flows irreversibly to awakening: "steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'"
Little note. The disciple the Vera sutta is going through different stages of awaking: Stream Enterer I assume the better word for pride as some of you mentioned is confidence. I know there are different methods of practice. This can give an idea of structure while keeping healthy pride or confidence along the way.
This is a long sutta to post. Here is an exerpt.
-
"I ask the kinsman of the Sun, the great seer,
about seclusion & the state of peace.
Seeing in what way is a monk unbound,
clinging to nothing in the world?"
"He should put an entire stop
to the root of objectification-classifications:
'I am the thinker.'[1]
Continued:Tuvataka Sutta: Quickly
In my humble reading, this sutta includes some key elements from Buddhist teachings:
? According to M.N. 9, for development of Right view or Right understanding, we must "understand Evil and the root of Evil, and Good and the root of Good."
That is, which actions are akusala or unskillful actions (killing, stealing, illicit sex, lying, consuming intoxicants), and abiding by the precepts through abstaining from them.
Akusala deeds are here described as the actions that bring animosity and fear.
? Saddha, that is, faith in the Buddha as teacher (not as a personal saviour nor as a prophet), in the Dhamma (his teaching, as self-help method for the eradication of dukkha), and the Sangha, the fellowship of like-minded people to encourage each other down the path.
Faith, in the Buddhist sense of faith through application of our logical and investigative faculties, not through the blind faith of theistic religions.
? Through discernment, there is an increase in clarity, while ignorance is diminished.
Ignorance is the link that kickstarts the cycle of dependent origination, the cycle of craving, attachment and dukkha (what is referred to here as "hell"), so naturally, discernment is crucial to propel mindfulness, liberation and nirvana.
So this is not about "externals:" there is an internal process of insight and there are certain elements more conducive to the attainment or internalisation of this insight.
Those of us following the Buddhist path trust that by abstaining from certain actions, abiding by the teaching of the Buddha, and treading this path in the company of fellow wayfarers, we will attain cessation of dukkha.
Whatever personal meaning cessation of dukkha, that obnoxious personal hell, may hold for us.
One question I'd ask. How far do you feel a laity could practice as a monk and how would we incorporate more challenging practices without needing to overstep our roles as laity followers?
I have quoted several times the anecdote of Anathapindika, a wealthy follower and mecaenas of the Buddha, who had misgivings about his situation as layman as being a possible obstacle to attain cessation of dukkha.
The answer of the Buddha, as recorded by Asvaghosha in the Fo-Sho-Tsan-King, was:
In a nutshell, it is better to be a good layman than a bad monk.
We should set out with a clear idea in our minds what it is we are attempting to derive from our practice, then tailor our life through the sifts of wisdom, morality and concentration accordingly.
My lifelong project is to dwell as mindfully as possible in the present moment, as the moment where all responses and skillful actions are born and all reactions and unskilful actions are nipped in the bud.
And the moment where dukkha is minimized by not looking back with regret, nor looking anxiously before us.
I know for me if I had the resources, position, and years of practice I would go into a monastic life. I have no hard ties and live alone so the only external issues are my health and loved ones. If I were to answer my own question, the closest I could do to challenge myself beyond laity terms is to live a literally simple life. Ive done that so far externally and mentally going through things and people who I need to break from to continue my practice.
Another challenge is finding a Sangha to where I have more formal teachings. Its nice to read The Dhamma but I also found from my former faith a good working connection with like believers in person helps as well. A lot.
Sometimes we dont know how much external situations, things, and people are affecting progress in our practice from within. I also find teachings like "have no delusions and avoid hatred" very generalized. I think practice is much deeper than only watching our breathe and visualizing loving kindness.
The Buddha taught three things among many towards merits to end suffering and no rebirth.
If I remember by heart. I guess with everything else, find a topic and break it down into parts. Use The Dhamma as comentary, agknowledge what one needs to work on, know there is a cause, list solutions, act to solve it.
Thats how I interpret it.
This sutta calls to my mind the Book of Eights which we read not so long ago, that too was largely a list of things not to do. It seems that the range of human behaviour as produced by logic, emotion and the world around us includes some unhealthy impulses, things which are to be discarded or extinguished.
If I am not ‘the thinker’, am not the mind, then what about that-which-acts? In a way the thing which acts, which expresses itself, is the key part of the human being. We may all be composites, watcher listening to the mind, actor sometimes expressing the mind or feelings. If you think about what happens when we cry or when we smile, it can be revealing.
I consider all these directions for monastics as hints for the laity. Some things you cannot do, such as the life of homelessness or begging for alms. Some things you can do, like training to stop craving or unkind speech.
I guess it would depend on the situation. I can live a life of poverty but cant live without a home, food, and meds. Though we have homeless people here, a lot, that live from people and the church if possible. I understand the significance of head shaved, no luxury, and eating time guidelines but I find it formally inappropriate to take those precepts as laity. Though Im in the position I could. I wonder if we can challenge ourselves beyond the five precepts and eight fold path. Its just something I thought about but didnt look into it until I posted this sutta and read it.
As Tilopa wisely put it, "It is not outer things, but inner clinging and fixation that entangle us."
Our problem is that since we are born we are conditoned to think in self-centering terms: this is me, this is not me.
When in fact, both "me" and "not me," are mere conventional notions occurring in an ever-flowing moment of consciousness.
And the "me" clings fast to its acquired conditioned behaviour, to its neuroses, to the walls it builds in its perception of reality.
The only two barriers to more skillful behaviour and a more comprehensive perception of reality are afflictive emotion and delusion.
And they are not external to us.
The whole aim of the Buddhist practice is a constant care of our mind.
"Our life is shaped by our mind," begins the Dhammapada.
Once we stop trying to control reality and focus on working on ourselves, we can begin to help others.
I will never be a monastic, @Carlita.
But I strive to help and do a lot of good as a laywoman.
I think this is a false dichotomy. We can practice to the best of our abilities, whatever situation we find ourselves in.
I got to where a monk should abandon laughter before my eyes rolled in my head.
A monk isn't supposed to laugh?
I would not say the Buddha's process is entirely internal because one takes refuge in buddha, dharma and sangha, to support and guide the practice. Buddhism is not really about reinventing the wheel, so to speak. It's about following the path the Buddha laid out to follow.
These 4 factors are "four factors of a stream enterer", not four factors leading to stream entry. These four factors are describing a person who has already attained stream entry. In other words, it's clarifying the definition of "stream enterer".
This is reiterated in SN 55.30 Licchavi Sutta
There are 4 different factors leading to stream entry.
Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry.
Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry.
Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry.
Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry.
— SN 55.5
As for the noble ones liking it. It's not a matter of just being liked by them. A noble one, by definition, has impeccable virtue. If they didn't, they would not be a noble one to begin with. Therefore, if you are also a stream enterer, you would also have impeccable virtue. A person with impeccable virtue knows what is impeccable virtue and what isn't. Therefore, if your virtue actually is impeccable, then of course all other people with impeccable vitrue would agree with it. If you don't actually have impeccable virtue, then by definition, you can't be a stream enterer. In order to "never again destined for states of woe" one must have impeccable vitrue.
Its a question rather a statement. Some people would stay with laity precepts, some go a bit father, and others have the resources etc to go further in their practice observances. Not a obligation nor a "laity or monk" thing. Just a question of thought. Especially if one would like to be a monastic but cant. Laity have different views on practice and how far they take it without then associating it with rituals and dogma from faiths they may be used to.
A question of thought not a statement.
You dont have to answer my questions, folks. The daily sutta is for everyone who wish to comment or question of application etc. The intro has a more detailed intent on the Daily Sutta threads.
Great idea.
So what then about “ehi passiko”, or the Kalamata Sutta? Both of those stress the value of your own verified experience, over reliance on others. I think if one solely relies on following the path, ones understanding will be incomplete... perhaps it is necessary to make some mistakes of one’s own, to see where your natural inclinations would lead you. It may be unavoidable to do so.
That sounds like an impossible bar to meet... and to define impeccable virtue as adherence to the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha seems just plain incorrect, a result of rote-following group think rather than a true path to enlightenment.
Yes, but there again, they can if they want to.... it is after all, a forum for comment and engagement, no?
They can if they want to....and...they dont "have to" answer my question.
It means its not a necessity, (a choice), not a statement of demand. The Intro thread explains the intent of the Daily Suttas.
Everyone reads and express things differently since we are not all in one area speaking one tongue. Are you making a point towards the sutta, a comment to my question, an idea or something to add?
Please be more considerate when talking to me. I like coming here to talk about The Dharma and Buddhist practice not defending myself every four post I put up.
I'm not being inconsiderate.
I was merely making a point.
From a neutral point of view and with no agenda I have to say that @federica comment above is nothing BUT respectful.
"Furthermore, when one who gives, who is a master of giving, approaches any assembly of people — noble warriors, brahmans, householders, or contemplatives — he/she does so confidently & without embarrassment. And the fact that when one who gives, who is a master of giving, approaches any assembly of people — noble warriors, brahmans, householders, or contemplatives — he/she does so confidently & without embarrassment: this, too, is a fruit of generosity visible in the here & now.
~Akasa Sutta
A suggestion, maybe you should keep all the daily suttas in one thread and that way it will be easier to find and follow for everyone
_ /\ _
Hmm. I figure since I can't tell when the discussion ends, it may interrupt the last quote's discussion. I'll ask to see if that works out.
Hey. Guys. I was just given an suggestion of maybe keeping the daily sutras on one thread. What do you guys think? Since everyone is in different time zones and discussions may continue on, would you like the sutras to be on this thread and continue while new suttras are posted or....?
I can transfer the new thread here and maybe a mod can delete the other one if you guys want it all on one thread.
I think one thread is an excellent suggestion and easy for everybody to locate. Much Metta Carlita.
@dhammachick I love how Carlita is doing it. I like each one separately.
Personally, I find the choice of sutta a bit arbitrary and the highlight of excerpts confusing...
Some excerpts don't strike me as the main drift of the sutta.
But maybe that's me.
I think keeping them separate is best, because that keeps the ideas and the discussion of said ideas separate.
I haven't had much to say on any of them yet but I've followed them and like the idea of specifically Buddhist directed threads. I also appreciate the initiative and time it takes to find a different sutta daily @Carlita
In my opinion, @Kerome, it is because the Dhamma agrees with us that we choose to follow this path.
We saw what Buddhadhamma is about, we understood, we followed.
And this following is not out of pure blind faith, but because Buddhadhamma logically clicks with us.
Which does not rule out the fact that we may keep questioning how relevant or pertinent certain parts of Buddhadhamma are to our life and logic on a daily basis anyway.
As to the latter comment, it is not rote-following nor group thinking.
The Buddha came up with a method that he found through personal experience to bring about cessation of dukkha.
The closer you follow his teachings, the less dukkha -states of woe- you'll generate in your life.
The fact that in real life we cannot always abide by impeccable virtue, does not mean that ideally this would not put an end to our sorrows.
Thank you @person. I was a bit hesitant at first because I really want to keep this up. It helps with meditation etc. We have two saying separate and one combine. I guess I'll see who answers next. If push comes to shove, I'll keep it separate. Feel free to post sutras on the threads if you want to keep it going within threads as well.
In the intro thread I gave some ideas of members bringing up their own ideas and highlights. What questions would you ask and how would apply the main messege of the sutta itself. I try to post short ones so you guys can read it in full on your spare time. I usually comment my opinion from the sutta. Depends on how you want to address the thread.
Daily Sutta: Piyavagga: Dear Ones (DhpA)
In just the same way,
when you've done good
& gone from this world
to the world beyond,
your good deeds receive you —
as kin, someone dear
come home.
-Piyavagga: Dear Ones