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The Elephant in the Room
Shoshin1
Sentient BeingOceania Veteran
Just watched this YouTube video of Russians being asked what they think about the war/special operations in Ukraine...and what impact it will have on Russia....
Interesting comments...
3
Comments
Oh, the Russians seem to be very diverse in their understanding and experience.
In the UK we are bombarded by an extreme mis-government that pushes us from one tragedy to the next:
Thanks @Shoshin first bit of independent thinking I have experienced in a while
… and now back to the elephants
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant
The translation made some errors and omissions. The main thing that came up repeatedly was, when people were asked in what way do they notice the sanctions, several people answered "in the currency". But the word they all used for "currency" actually means "hard currency" meaning--currency that actually has value, i.e. foreign currency, not Russian money, which isn't accepted in any bank outside of Russia.
So where people are noticing the sanctions is as one person said, "The ruble has lost value". In other words, when they try to exchange their rubles for dollars, the price of the dollar (or pound, any foreign currency) has gone up. They have less buying power. Even in local markets with local money, they have less buying power, because prices have gone up (relative to the sinking ruble). Many of the consumer goods in Russia are imported; even ordinary things like dental floss, let alone computers, household items, etc. So imported goods have gone out of reach of the average Russian, due to the sanctions and the ruble's fall in value.
And someone said, salaries now are lower. So people are getting squeezed from both sides: the ruble buys less than before, but also they have fewer rubles to spend, as well.
This is sad. And the young people somehow are able to get "real" news from somewhere, even though the government is trying to limit access to outside sources. That's interesting. So most of the young people who responded were well-informed, relatively. No one denied there was a war, unlike some other citizens we've heard about. This makes me wonder if the film we saw was heavily edited, to drop responses that supported the government's position.
It was interesting to see how some of those being interviewed were reluctant to outright condemn Putin and I guess with good reason ...
No doubt there are other YouTube or other media channels/outlets run by Russians who are anti war, however it's only a matter of time before Putin's henchmen try to gag them, by calling them fake news and threats of imprisonment or worse...
BTW Do you speak Russian @Dakini ?
Да!
>
I was surprised anyone was open to being interviewed at all! How would they know who the interviewer really was, and where the film would end up? I suppose, that kids who'd never lived during the Soviet period, or perhaps only under Gorby's kinder, gentler USSR, wouldn't be aware that one needs to be cautious. As I recall, it was some of the older people, who avoided commenting on politics, or anything that could be construed politically.
For that matter, I wonder how anyone even knew there were international sanctions? How would they know what the interviewer was talking about? Seriously, if there's been a blockade of information on the war, and Russia has been censoring the internet for years, now, how would anyone know? The younger people must have figured out a way to circumvent whatever the censorship mechanism is. Or maybe Voice Of America is still beaming into Russia. I think this type of story-behind-the-story is potentially very interesting.
I heard a story by a reporter who was in Ukraine (not sure if its first hand). He talked about a woman "protesting" by holding up a blank sign so technically she wasn't running afoul of the authorities. When someone with a camera asked her about her thoughts, just as she was about to say something she was grabbed and pulled away by someone, I assume an officer of the state.
The BBC World News still broadcasts radio into Russia.
As this man made tragedy continues, the suffering in Ukraine and Russia will increase. We will begin feeling it indirectly. Nations dependent upon grain from Russia and Ukraine will suffer. Someone will ultimately declare victory. Yet there will never be victors, just victims and survivors.
All this pain and suffering of millions from the ego of a very few Sociopaths.
This is why we must, each in our own way, minuscule as our individual efforts may seem, continue to strive for and work toward universal compassion and respect for every person, regardless of social or economic position or any other superficial difference. Opening ears, eyes, hearts is a most tedious, frustrating, laborious task. But is must be done. A hard lesson to learn is that we are all interconnected. When one suffers, we all suffer, when one grows, we all grow.
Perhaps we can begin with a smile, an outreached hand of greeting, of support.
Peace to all
It must be interesting reading the subtitles when they don't quite match what's actually being said @Dakini ...
Occasionally I watch RT English language and the Chinese state TV English language, just to see how much their propaganda differs from the Western media ...
The crucial info missing here is -- which part of Ukraine was she in? The Russian-controlled part, or the Ukrainian part?
@Shoshin. How are you able to post the youtube clip without the adverts in the beginning? I'd like to repost it elsewhere. It's a good one.
Well, I have some news on the situation. An article I read mentioned that Ukraine has oil. So I looked up Ukraine's oil and gas fields. Well, what do you know! The piece of eastern Ukraine Russia took over 8 years ago is Ukraine's richest oil region, and also has natural gas resources. AND, the Crimea peninsula, where Russia also fomented a separatist movement and invaded and annexed years ago, has many off-shore gas fields.
So is this whole hullabaloo really about NATO, or is it about more oil and gas for Russia? The plot thickens. Why haven't any media outlets discussed this, I wonder.
It seems to me Putin wants to go back to the Soviet empire, and is rather afraid of states on its borders becoming independent. As long as Ukraine’s presidents were ineffectual and corrupt and could be pushed around, it was fine with Russia. As soon as someone with sense and independence shows up like Zelensky there is war…
I'm not sure, it's just a fluke I guess...
Honestly, I'm pretty fuzzy on the details, it wasn't a "report" it was just an anecdote brought up in casual conversation. But my understanding was that the woman was protesting in Russia.
That makes sense, then. P has made it illegal to talk about the war or to even mention there is a war, and protesting is definitely not allowed. Thousands of people have been hauled off in large protests.
But that was pretty clever of her. She tried to test the boundaries of the new muzzle laws, but she lost the gamble, it sounds like.
I agree. He's even afraid of the existing ethnic republics inside Russia possibly spinning off and trying for independence. Especially those with an international border or a coastline.
The 1st protester that was recorded being arrested for holding up a blank sign was in Russia a week ago. There have been a number of other people who have also been arrested for duplicating her actions in Russia since then.
GIGO is a computer acronym. Garbage In, Garbage Out
PUT IN, GET OUT is similar
Or PUT IN. "TAKE OUT" (Mafia mob boss style)
Generals gathered in their masses
Just like witches at black masses
Evil minds that plot destruction
Sorcerer of death's construction
In the fields, the bodies burning
As the war machine keeps turning
Death and hatred to mankind
Poisoning their brainwashed minds
Oh lord, yeah!
Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor, yeah
Time will tell on their power minds
Making war just for fun
Treating people just like pawns in chess
Wait till their judgement day comes, yeah!
Now in darkness, world stops turning
Ashes where their bodies burning
No more war pigs have the power
Hand of God has struck the hour
Day of judgement, God is calling
On their knees, the war pigs crawling
Begging mercy for their sins
Satan laughing, spreads his wings
Oh lord, yeah!
I was listening to a discussion with Yuval Noah Harari and he pointed out the threat this war poses to the world that I hadn't heard discussed previously.
Even though civil wars or wars of genocide still occur, or the US wars in the middle east, however you want to define them. Wars of conquest have been off the table as an acceptable part of the world order. So if Putin is allowed victory that sort of reestablishes wars of conquest as part of the world order.
Acceptable or allowable aren't the right word, its more like some bad things are just off the table, while some still go on even though most people would like to also see them gone from the world. Like a disease maybe, small pox and malaria are both bad, but small pox has been eradicated and would be seen as worse than a malaria outbreak if it came back.
I listened to this podcast this week. It was an interview with 3 Ukrainian citizen journalists who have been reporting on the situation in their country.
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vUlNWMjM0NzE0Mjg4MQ/episode/OGYxOWNmYmMtNjI3MC0xMWVjLWFmNzctZGY5OWZlYzhlMDkx?hl=en&ved=2ahUKEwj1n6GypeT2AhWaZs0KHXvjA7UQieUEegQIAhAI&ep=6
The question was asked in the podcast and I've heard it elsewhere and got me thinking, so I'd thought I'd ask it of others here. I'll avoid giving my answer for now.
If an invasion like this happened in your country what do you think you would do? Maybe what would you hope you'd do and what do you honestly think you'd do?
In all cases, hide behind the sofa and not get involved.
Move away from high desirability target zones.
Observe, prepare, assist.
In what ways precisely will be determined by cause and effect.
I can only wait until such a time comes, then see what unfolds, see which self takes the reins ....
Meanwhile another 1420 video from Russia ...latest on sanctions ...
Interesting to see the reporting that Russia is kind of losing the war? Supposedly they are suffering significant casualties on the ground…
At the beginning of the invasion Putin said he is ridding Ukraine of Nazis, "Denazifying Ukraine"... much of the Western media were quick to point out that Ukraine's president is Jewish...but no mention of the far right neo nazi groups being funded/supported by Western governments to fight against the Russian troops...
Don't get me wrong Putin is dangerous and can't be trusted, however there is some truth to his claims about the far right groups in Ukraine, not dismissing the fact that Russia like many Western countries also has its far right neo nazi groups...
Also an interesting article from Al Jazeera ...
Hence why the first causality of war is the truth...and the truth is rarely black & white....
I hope I'd face the danger and avoid directly fighting if I could but assist with medical aid or support. If necessary at some point, actually pick up a weapon to help protect others and prevent the further spread of aggressive, power hungry people. As they say, “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
I fear, in the face of such violence my fear would overwhelm me and I'd flee or hide.
That's the first I'd heard of it. My first thought was not the worst idea in the world to send angry, violent people off to do the fighting. My second thought was, what if that gives them a taste for real bloodshed and trains them to be more effective at violence. My third thought was, well maybe it will knock some of them off. My fourth thought, I don't know if that is going to work out well or poorly...
I wasn't sure if this would be best here or in good news but I think its a good example for Buddhist resistance. Basically a bunch of unarmed Ukrainians stood down some tanks.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10556911/Astonishing-moment-hundreds-brave-Ukrainians-force-Russian-tanks-halt.html
Yes an act of bravery on the part of the Ukrainians who were banking on the tank driver's humanity, where the Russian tanks drivers (no doubt some young inexperienced conscripts amongst them) showed empathy and compassion towards the people(other human beings) standing in front of them..
.
Who is P to go around deNazifying other countries? Who appointed him as the Grand DeNazifier? He should focus on achieving that in his own country.
And how does bombing hospitals, theaters (that also happen to be bomb shelters full of citizens), schools, etc. relate to his deNazification excuse? The deNazification story was mainly for his own audience in Russia. Older Russians have traumatic memories of the Germans during WWII. To many Russians, the term "Nazi" doesn't relate to Jews, it relates to Hitler's view that Slavs were inferior people, useful only as factory workers and common laborers. "Russia is our Africa!" Hitler declared to the rest of Europe and its colonial powers.
So framing his venture in Ukraine in this way, P thought it would be viewed as a worthy cause, a justifiable action. Of course, the public in Russia have no idea how horrific the war really is (no one inside Russia is allowed to call it "war", on pain of imprisonment), except for the young people who still have internet access to discussion forums outside of Russia, and other foreign news sources. I'm told the BBC is still broadcasting into Russia.
P recently threatened Serbia, should they dare to join NATO. So far, he hasn't had the nerve to threaten any eastern NATO countries (Romania, Estonia, Poland).
Powerful Nations have been 'bullying' smaller nations for years...More often than not invade smaller often weaker countries under false pretence ...Russia is no exception...
Along with the bombs dropped and guns fired, "both" sides Ukraine (along with the West) and Russia are deeply involved in a propaganda war...
Hence why the first causality of war is the truth...and the truth is "rarely" black & white...
It is sad how social media is spreading hate so fast. I know a few UKRAINIAN Russian-speakers who are afraid to speak Russian. In a village -cannot disclose- Jewish Ukrainians were calling for the death of Russians just for their supposed ethnicity, and its "obvious" ties to evil. Identity politics are confusing and can generate a lot of abstract nonsense. Also the reason I mention that they are Jewish, is not to pin point them as the evil enemy, but as an example of how even groups that you would suspect of having certain "immunity" to this barbarism are not safe. Let's recall how Ukrainian nationalism actually took sides with Nazi Germany during the war. In other words, total delusion.
Also...if Putin wanted to "protect the Russian people living in Ukraine " he has done a lot to give the anti-Russian sentiment in Ukraine -which started growing particularly after the Euromaidan protests in 2014- a lot of back-up and "evidence" to feed the flames of hate. He has done very well.
My partner is Ukrainian, Russian-speaking too. She says it was terrible the build up to this. How everything related to Russia was being deleted and this nationalistic ideal based on Russophobia is getting deeper and deeper.
In Spain, we have something in a "similar" vein (not as extreme of course). Cataluña -eastern region which speaks a different yet similar language, Catalan- has some issues regarding what language should be used and a lot of people are literally advocating for the end of Spanish because of this same rhetoric -generalising all Spanish speaking people as "oppressors, killers, fascists, resentment for Franc's dictatorship-. This has even led to what should've been a resolution to this issue. The Judicial system provided the following guarantee people in Cataluña: if requested to the school authorities, they had to provide 25% of the school hours in Spanish, the rest in Catalan.
While this still needs work to be done and it is far from a resolution to the Catalan question, there was a case where a boy from a village (called Canet del Mar) was openly targeted by adults as an enemy and calling parents to not allow him be friends with their children and isolate him JUST BECAUSE his parents had requested that his son received 25% of the school hours in Spanish.
These are examples of DELUSION. But if you give DELUSION more material to feed on, like invading a country or sending anti-riot police to beat people up (like in Russia and in Cataluña), you won't end it.
Peace!
What it all comes down to is that people think these things are so important: what language you speak shouldn’t make such a difference, its not a big deal to learn multiple languages? If people were more forgiving, less inclined to be ruthless, more heartful, kinder. The world could be a better place.
War is where the rich get richer( wheeling and dealing) and the poor get killed (fighting the rich elite's money making battles) ...
It's sad when you think about war and how poor people are left in the dark about the truth and for the most part are fed propaganda to help keep a steady supply of cannon fodder...
Jack Kornfield Peace is Possible
No, it wasn't "total delusion". A number of the Soviet republics sided with Germany in WWII. The reason was, of course, that they hoped to gain their liberation from Russia. Why would they side with Russia, when some of them had been independent countries before Russia (the USSR) took them over?
Even the King of Romania sided with Germany in the beginning. He said it was because he hoped to regain Bessarabia (now Moldova), which the USSR had stolen from Romania. He said as King, he was obligated to try to reunite his country. But partway through the war, Germany was making unreasonable demands of Romania, so he switched sides. He was in his teens and early 20's when this was going on. He had to walk a tightrope between Hitler and Stalin. How many people do you know, who were capable of doing that at 19? Plus going out on the battlefield fearlessly, to command troops in a hellish war that was consuming Europe?
It's easy for us nearly 80 years hence to pass judgment on countries that chose to side with Germany. We have no idea of what they were dealing with, what they had been through with Stalin in charge through the 30's into the 40's, and the difficult choices they had to make.
They paid a very heavy price after the war was over. Stalin deported hundreds of thousands of people from the Baltic States into the Central Asian desert after the war, branding them traitors, of course. Ukraine seems to be reliving that experience now. Only instead of deporting people alive, Russia is killing them off. Well, the ones who chose to leave via the refugee corridor into Russia have been "deported" into inhospitable regions in Russia's hinterlands, probably never to be heard from again. History repeats itself, tragically.
Hi @Dakini I didn't mean it was delusional for Ukrainian Nationalists to take sides with Nazi Germany. I find delusional that Ukrainian Jews are picking the symbols of Bandera and Ukrainian Nationalism. And this as an example of how violence works under these circumstances... there are many other examples. Like Ukrainians hating Ukrainians because they wish to speak Russian, or Ukrainians hating Russian in general and wishing them total destruction. And viceversa.
I understand Ukraine wished to be freed from the Soviet government that had in the 1920s killed, famished and even destroyed what could've been a solid attempt to establish Anarchism in the world (the other being here in Spain).
Sorry for the confusion
Interesting...
Stephen Fry "Europe’s lying about Ukraine"
I loved that last woman!
I've heard quite a bit of talk, since this war, about the problematic nature of maintaining economic ties with authoritarian regimes. The thinking in the past was economic engagement would lead to cultural and political liberalization. But its becoming increasingly clear that economic liberalization doesn't have to bring the others with it. And then having heavy dependence on them, I'm thinking China as an example here, influences our values maybe more than theirs. Think of the way the NBA or movie makers aren't able to speak out against humanitarian abuses in China or face the loss of China's market. That's just economically, if you then get a situation like with Russia here, heavy economic ties make it harder for a country to resist threats when it would mean higher costs to the welfare of their own country. Its a tough question, economic interdependence has meant that countries are less likely to go to war, but it also now seems to mean that a bad actor can use that dependence to push its weight around for its own destructive (to others) self interest.
The volume completely disappeared for the 'last woman' (sat on the floor, with a cat) was it sabotage? It even lacked subtitles. Would love to know why the video didn't work for the last interviewee, either played here, or directly on YouTube...
Another interesting video... The 'actual far right problem' in Ukraine...
Apparently with the spike in oil prices caused by the war, even with the sanctions Russia has been pulling in even more money than pre sanctions.
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/russia-expects-earn-96-bln-more-april-due-high-oil-prices-2022-04-05/
Even in the Divided States of America there isn't much disagreement about what to do.
https://www.theflipside.io/latest-issue
Hi, Kotishka. I edited your post to make it easier to focus on a couple of points that I don't understand. Where are you getting your information? What Ukrainian jews have chosen the symbols of Bandera and Ukrainian Nationalism?
I don't know what you're talking about, when you say the Soviet government in the 20's destroyed what could have been an attempt to establish Anarchism in the world. What do you mean by "Anarchism"?
Ukraine, like the Baltic States, --or perhaps this pertains mainly to western Ukraine--has wanted to be free of Soviet/Russian domination for generations. Ukrainians still remember Stalin's attempts to starve them out. Perhaps the matter is complicated by the fact that a (we are told) large portion of the eastern part of the country is Russian, but on the other hand, the regions being fought over just happen to be the locations of Ukraine's greatest natural gas fields, and we know who is trying to dominate and control the supply of natural gas to Western Europe.
It's unclear whether the majority of Russians in Ukraine want to be a part of an independent Ukraine, or want to separate, or to what extent the separatist movement is something instigated by Moscow, as it was in Moldova.
There are websites based in Russia, where people are talking about eliminating Ukrainians altogether. These sound like extremist groups (I haven't looked at the sites myself), but it could be, that these are something some Ukrainians, whether Jews or non-Jews, are accessing and becoming alarmed by. And when missiles are hitting hospitals, train stations full of people, apartment buildings and so on, as you can imagine, some people could easily conclude, that Russia's goal really is to perpetrate genocide. It's easy for hysteria to flourish in the current conditions.
On the other hand, there have been reports from parts of Eastern Ukraine, of Russians who are perfectly content to remain in Ukraine, and who get along fine with Ukrainians.
The situation is a mess, and the fact that "Moscow" recently appointed a particularly brutal general to coordinate the war leads everyone to fear that the worst is to come.
@Dakini
Anarchist movements were really strong in Ukraine in the early 1910s and 1920s. Nestor Makhno or Simon Karetnik to mention the most known. They were once "friendly" with the Bolsheviks but were crushed under the orders of Lenin and then Stalin.
By Ukrainian Jews, this is an example I know quite closely. I mentioned it because it reflected how hate can unite people even if the ideological paradigm and its history are quite contradictory to the person's identity. My partner -raised, born and escaped Ukraine to now live with me in Spain by the minimum- knows Ukrainian Jews -she is from Vinnytsia Oblast- and has shown me what they post over social media and even their talks. There were even discussions between this person and her relatives -she resides in Israel now- were she denies the that in the Babi Yar massacre there was any "Ukrainian involvement", blaiming it on Soviet Russia. The wikipedia page in Ukrainian has also removed any ties . Also, they are sharing songs that say:
"Я сьогодні з'їв немовля кацапа, було дуже смачно і я дуже радий. Бандера - батько техно, а Україна - мати"
"I ate a baby katsap* today, it was very tasty and I'm very happy. Bandera is the father of techno, and Ukraine is the mother"
She of course cannot express any of her views for the sake of her family, who are Russian speaking and half Russian who had moved during the USSR period there. They are now in fear of being labelled "traitors" or "unpatriotic". The link I can send it to you via DM if you want. Not sharing that rubbish over here. But just YouTube "музыка Я СЬОГОДНІ З'ЇВ".
I'm not justifying Russian intervention and I do understand why this feeling is growing so strong (anti-russian) and the historic background it rests upon. This is just a display of how violence breeds hate. I know that in Russia you can buy t-shirts with the "Z"symbol glorifying war and death as if it were a Call of Duty online tournament. The destruction of Ukraine being a simple videogame campaign. Even old dedushki saying they should be reunified like back in the day.
Also Finland requests joining NATO.... EU arguing over cutting supplies to Russia... Japan sending supplies to Ukraine and reclaiming Kirill islands...China getting stronger... it could end up in a major conflict, hopefully not. This is a hard scenario like during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
I wish for a peaceful resolution but with Putin.... I don't think so.... he is the epitome of authoritarianism and corruption. Tsar Putin.
The case of Finland is interesting. On the one hand, it's easy to understand why they've suddenly become alarmed. It's not only due to the invasion of Ukraine, but to the fact, that Russia violated Finland's airspace just before the Ukraine invasion, and has done so again more recently. If Russia wants to avoid Finland joining NATO, they should be a less aggressive neighbor. Their "warning" flyovers are having the opposite effect of what Russia desires.
On the other hand, Finland has a neutrality treaty with Russia. An international treaty is a legally binding document. I'm waiting to find out what Finland plans to do about that, if they do apply to NATO. And "Moscow" has been further threatening Finland, since finding out Finland has been seriously considering applying for NATO membership, to make matters worse.
I had to look up the Kurile Islands matter. Thanks for that piece of news.
I, too, sometimes refer to P as the Tsar.
The whole scenario very quickly progressed to a stage far worse then the Cuban Missile Crisis! I can't bear to look at a newspaper anymore (fortunately, I don't have a TV); even just to glimpse the headlines is upsetting.
Interesting interview on Crooked Media YouTube
Nationalism rising in Ukraine. Thanks Mr Putin. Mr Bandera is now a fashion item even!
"Vicious mindless violence that offers nothing new
Left wing violence, right wing violence, all seems much the same
Bully boys out fighting, it's just the same old game
Boring fucking politics that'll get us all shot
Left wing, right wing, you can stuff the lot
Keep your petty prejudice, I don't see the point
Anarchy and freedom is what I want."
Crass - White Punks on Hope
Dead or alive receive summons in Russia. Legal methods for Russians to avoid mobilization
