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Re: Right vision and conditioning
The right vision: To see clearly without preconception, without prejudice, without judgement.
Current events tell us that, for a great many, this is a all bu impossible task.
Lionduck
Re: Right vision and conditioning
@Jeroen said:
I have heard… that in Buddhist circles right vision — a crucial element of the path to enlightenment — is defined as being in accord with the Dhamma. Does that not mean that a practicing Buddhist is expected to learn what constitutes the Dhamma, and live by it? It would seem that one has to learn all the sutras of the Buddha, to truly be able to be in accord with it.It sounds to me like you would have to turn yourself into a living library of Buddhist sutras, many of which are several thousand years old and have been transcribed and translated many times. Does that mean that you have to live in the footsteps of ancient sages all the time?
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I think you're holding it all a bit too tightly. Like @how said, finger pointing at the moon, its not about getting the finger perfect, its about getting to the moon.
It sounds to me that this is a form of conditioning. That you apply yet another layer of conditioning onto the mind, on top of parents, school teachers and society, to acquire right vision, to see things “in the right way”. But what then happens to the unique you, the person you were born as?
I think this is along the lines of my comment that kicked off our disagreement on the other thread. The Buddhist path is a form of conditioning, subject to all the worldly laws of impermanence, dukkha and so forth. But it is said, with exemplars, that it will lead to freedom. Where we then set down the raft once on the other shore.
It seems to me that to truly live an original and authentic life, you need to shed as much of your conditioning as possible.
I strive to be authentic as well to some degree. But I feel I have qualities I'd like to change and areas I'd do well to develop. I also think some of my authenticity lies in my conditioning. Like what I have uniquely learned about the world. A good example, not about me, is someone from an abusive home who uses that conditioning to help others who are in similar situations.
Humans have a dual nature, in that they are cooperative and also tribal. I'd say society does well when it helps channel our instinctive qualities in prosocial directions.
person
Re: Right vision and conditioning
Right vision, right view… I obviously wasn’t entirely awake this morning.
Jeroen
Re: Right vision and conditioning
@Jeroen said:
I have heard… that in Buddhist circles right vision — a crucial element of the path to enlightenment — is defined as being in accord with the Dhamma. Does that not mean that a practicing Buddhist is expected to learn what constitutes the Dhamma, and live by it? It would seem that one has to learn all the sutras of the Buddha, to truly be able to be in accord with it.
The Buddhist Dharma can be likened to a diamond where each of its facets is a reflection of all of the others. Within each facet is an understanding of its whole.
@Jeroen said:
I have heard… that in Buddhist circles right vision — a crucial element of the path to enlightenment — is defined as being in accord with the Dhamma. Does that not mean that a practicing Buddhist is expected to learn what constitutes the Dhamma, and live by it? It would seem that one has to learn all the sutras of the Buddha, to truly be able to be in accord with it.
Here, a finger pointing at the moon gets mistaken for the moon itself.
@Jeroen said:
It sounds to me that this is a form of conditioning. That you apply yet another layer of conditioning onto the mind, on top of parents, school teachers and society, to acquire right vision, to see things “in the right way”. But what then happens to the unique you, the person you were born as?
What is conditioning but the patterning of a previous moment affecting the arising of the next. How could consciousness even arise without it? The Buddha's path towards suffering's cessation is just a conditioning that when in contact with arising phenomena, lends itself more toward responses of selflessness than selfishness.
It seems to me that to truly live an original and authentic life, you need to shed as much of your conditioning as possible.
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Is there a baby in that bathwater you're throwing out?
When is a search for an original and authentic life not just another spa day for an Ego?
how
Re: Discipline and spirituality
@Jeroen said:
So a new topic, here it is.I’ve had periods where I have been very disciplined — when I got into a new and much more corporate job, I changed my life and started going to the gym three or four times a week, and got really muscled and fit over the course of about a year, lost about 25 kg of body weight, but then I had a mental breakdown and ended up shifting to a much less stressed lifestyle.
That was when I got into a more relaxed way of living. I realised I had overdone it, over-strained myself and had to make a change. There is nothing wrong with living in a relaxed, low-energy style. You can take more time to smell the roses, sleep, reading and writing letters and correspondence to people you know.
My intuition is that there are very few things, if any, that fall into the bucket of all up(or down) side. Its all tradeoffs. So, I'd think there are challenges and obstacles to be dealt with living that way (very relaxed). Things like aimlessness or anomie spring to mind. Also, I think you're living in a bit of a different circumstance than most here. You're essentially retired, (I guess I don't know your household arrangements) with family who are have been able to care for household duties. I think too much stress is problem, and the bigger one in our world today. But I also think too little stress is a problem, and it does seem to be a growing one in some areas of the world. People without direction or purpose.
As has been mentioned in the thread, there is a spectrum between discipline and laxity (wording?). Allan Watts called them "prickly" (disciplined) and "gooey" (lax/undisciplined). The Buddha advised the middle-way. Hence, here to it must be that the middle way applies as the way that brings the best results and least suffering.
An open question is how good any of us are in determining where we place on the spectrum in relation to the middle, hence which direction we should go with full steam ahead.
In our modern way of life, I think a lot of people will go more deeply into discipline first, and then like I did experience a backlash. The current mental health epidemic is a signal showing that, where a very large percentage of people end up taking medication, anti depressants or anti anxiety meds like benzodiazepines. These just mask the symptoms, whereas at their core is an unhealthy lifestyle.
I don't like hustle culture, I think its an unbalanced lifestyle. Some people thrive off creating and doing though. I think they would shrivel up if they were to sit around all day reading or going for walks. I wouldn't recommend a spirituality for them of maximal chill.
I think we can take a leaf from the lives of cats… they sleep an average of 15 hours a day!
We're not cats. Just as we're not sharks and shouldn't keep moving 24 hours a day. The human nervous system is tuned to a certain level of activity and stress, with a broad range between individuals.
Discipline is the art of ignoring your boundaries, of being subject to whatever goals the goal-directed part of your mind puts in front of you. Sure discipline helps you achieve your goals, but it’s not living.
To me its about the environment you do your living in. Do you have the resources and health to be able to engage in life affirming activities. If you don't take care of your life, your life can't take care of you.
A news headline I came across a few minutes ago: “Three quarters of Dutch topsporters suffer mental health problems.” I think that’s very telling, too much discipline and putting too much strain on body and mind is bad for your health.
I agree, too much discipline is bad for you. This is my worldly dharma, life is a balance, going all in leads to collapse and a restart, like the Yin/Yang. Leave the pendulum behind and seek to temper extremes with their opposite. Regularly reevaluate where you are and what needs attention or redirection.
From a deeper spiritual perspective trying to maintain a balance in the long run is a losing effort, impermanence and dukkha will have their way. Some effort into longer term spiritual freedom is a wise choice.
person
Re: Following Osho, Zen Buddhism and Being Rational
@marcitko said:
@person @JeroenGood discussion.
The practice of discipline is one of my favourite topics. @Jeroen I encourage you to open a separate topic.
For me personally, a period in which I was ever more disciplined brought the biggest (and even previously unimaginable) benefits.
My undisciplined phases brought nothing good and quite some bad.
I struggle with laziness, passivity, undirected effort, going from one thing to the other without producing a result.
I do NOT struggle with being colourful, fun-loving, being able to smell the roses, noticing beauty, joy, etc.
I relate to this as well.
My oldest friend is the reverse. Super-disciplined yet struggling with different issues.
As has been mentioned in the thread, there is a spectrum between discipline and laxity (wording?). Allan Watts called them "prickly" (disciplined) and "gooey" (lax/undisciplined). The Buddha advised the middle-way. Hence, here to it must be that the brings the best results and least suffering.
An open question is how good any of us are in determining where we place on the spectrum in relation to the middle, hence which direction we should go with full steam ahead.
Jack Kornfield tells a story about him seeing contradictions in a teacher of his. When asked about it the teacher replied something to the effect of, "when someone veers to the left side of the road I tell them to go right and when someone veers to the right side of the road I tell them to go left "
person
Re: Following Osho, Zen Buddhism and Being Rational
Good discussion.
The practice of discipline is one of my favourite topics. @Jeroen I encourage you to open a separate topic.
For me personally, a period in which I was ever more disciplined brought the biggest (and even previously unimaginable) benefits.
My undisciplined phases brought nothing good and quite some bad.
I struggle with laziness, passivity, undirected effort, going from one thing to the other without producing a result.
I do NOT struggle with being colourful, fun-loving, being able to smell the roses, noticing beauty, joy, etc.
My oldest friend is the reverse. Super-disciplined yet struggling with different issues.
As has been mentioned in the thread, there is a spectrum between discipline and laxity (wording?). Allan Watts called them "prickly" (disciplined) and "gooey" (lax/undisciplined). The Buddha advised the middle-way. Hence, here to it must be that the middle way applies as the way that brings the best results and least suffering.
An open question is how good any of us are in determining where we place on the spectrum in relation to the middle, hence which direction we should go with full steam ahead.
marcitko
Re: Buddhist quotes
“It has been well said that Buddhism is Hinduism stripped for export.”
— Alan Watts
Jeroen