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I totally agree your reply that everyday mindfulness when working/eating etc is very, very helpful indeed, but it won't be able to replace more silent sitting/walking practice.
I've found that regular meditation is a necessary foundation for maintaining mindfulness throughout the day.
Yes, I found the same. The two are complementary; not replacements of eachother.
You seem to be hyper-vigilant and sensitive - I say that because in all the years I have meditated I have never noticed the amount of saliva entering my mouth... I thought that perhaps if you learnt to appreciate some other ways of approaching it, the problem may fix itself - or perhaps if youre engaged in motor tasks either you can meditate that way (as in walking meditation) or learn something about your motor behaviours that will translate into sitting meditation... maybe - I'm probably not the right person to tell you as I havent encountered the problem myself so my suggestions are theoretical...
@zero: you are correct. let me tell in detail about myself - i am too sensitive, too moody, get angry very soon, too egoistic, too anxious, too restless, too selfish etc, almost all bad qualities are in me with their extremes - but let me see if i can work on myself.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@zero: you are correct. let me tell in detail about myself - i am too sensitive, too moody, get angry very soon, too egoistic, too anxious, too restless, too selfish etc, almost all bad qualities are in me with their extremes - but let me see if i can work on myself.
I know this wasn't directed at me and it actually seems like you dislike me but if you don't mind me saying so I'd say you've already begun the process.
Recognising extremes is a good thing in my opinion because the futility of it leads to the middle.
@zero: you are correct. let me tell in detail about myself - i am too sensitive, too moody, get angry very soon, too egoistic, too anxious, too restless, too selfish etc, almost all bad qualities are in me with their extremes - but let me see if i can work on myself.
Those aren't bad qualities, they are just qualities and you call them bad because you can't accept tham. To embrace yourself as you are, metta meditation which I've already recommended in my first reply here, will be very usefull, unmissable even. Did you try it?
Some quotes that apply so well here, I don't need to add anything to it:
Metta is not blinding; it means that you are willing to admit weaknesses, faults within your experience of life, without making that into anything. It’s a clarity: the mind is clear, radiant, bright and reflective, rather than just a pink cloud that we blot out every ugly thing with. ”
wisdom without love: if we’re just looking analytically, then we can understand everything theoretically, but on the level of feeling we’ve repressed, we don’t have a radiance, we just have a brilliant understanding. You can figure it all out and come out with some really impressive theories, insights even. But on the level of everyday life, we can’t live in an abstract world. We have to relate to unknown things, to changing nature, the movement and flow and flux of being, to the infinite variety of the sensory world of changing conditions, and types of people and personalities, and qualities. You can’t spend your time trying to fit everything into rational terminology, thinking that that’s the way to understand.
There always needs to be some metta in your meditation to make it work, but it is also possible to emphasize it in your practice. In your case that will be very beneficial, I think. You can google yourself for some more information on how to do this - I recommend finding some guided meditations, but here is just something to get you started: http://info.med.yale.edu/psych/3s/metta.html
@misecmisc1 - if you read my comment again, you'll see I didnt put in "too"!!
Dont worry you're not alone... we're all "too" something sometimes... in my mind, your statement that you will "work on yourself" is closer to achieving the aim of meditation than your concern for a "perfect" meditation session... I know you've heard the cliche "take it easy on yourself" "relax" "maybe try something else" a million times already but that may be the only real answer...
Try to find as many different ways of working on yourself as you can - say you find 10 and meditation is one of them, hopefully the 9 other tasks will show you that a small issue (like saliva) in meditation (1 out of 10) is really not a huge issue - perhaps that will allow you to naturally fall into a practice that suits - try to hold on to the fact that it is our differences that makes us what we are - perhaps sitting down meditation is just not for you... personally I'm naturally a walking / pacer - for me, sitting meditation is the most infrequent of my practice whereas walking meditation was absolutely natural - this for me has the added side effect that when I do sit, it is somehow like starting practice fresh so all of my fidgets fly away as it is not something that I have had to artificially habituate...
You're welcome. Once again, I'd really advice you to try metta meditation. I can't emphasize enough how important it is. After a while, let me know how it went.
One question: in my meditation, how to know/feel present moment during the gap between two breaths? this, though seems to be a weird question as we are in present moment, but i am finding it hard to know it in meditation.
let me tell what i have tried as i have tried both not doing anything and trying to keep focus on tip of nose or face -
if i do nothing and just sit, then my back seems to drop from its curve posture, head starts dropping and eventually some thought process starts and then i feel the back has lost its straightness and the head is dropped.
if i try to keep focus on the tip of my nose, then only during breathing when the air is going, i can feel it, but during the gap between two breaths that focus gets lost somewhere and only in the next breath, i am able to feel the tip of my nose.
if i try to keep focus on the face, then also something weird happens, even i am closing my eyes still the eyes try to see something in the darkness. this does not bothers me much, but the point is i am not able to be in the present moment - how to know if i am in the present moment?
if i try to force myself to be in present moment by not trying to think anything, this could not last more than 5 sec.
in my meditation, there are periods of gaps between two breaths - during breathing, i know i am breathing but during the gaps, which are slightly long, i am not feeling/knowing that i am in the present moment in that gap.
so my question is : how to know if i am in the present moment during the gap and keep this knowing going through during the meditation?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
try, try, try, try, try........
stop 'trying'.
just do it.
'do' or 'do not.' there is no 'try'.
when you try, you achieve nothing. try picking up a book. do not actually pick up the book. just try' to pick it up. ridiculous, right?
if i try to keep focus on the tip of my nose.....
..stop with the try. just notice the tip of your nose. it's fine.
if i try to keep focus on the face....
.. stop with the try. just notice the tip of your nose. it's fine.
if i try to force myself to be in present moment....
stop with the try. just notice the tip of your nose.
now you are in the present moment, because every single nano-second is the present moment. how can it not be? whether you notice it or not, you are. whether you acknowledge it or not, you are. whether you realise it or not, you are.
Jeesh....
I truly have never met somebody who analyses things to such an extent that they tie themselves in such knots!
Hyper-analysis causes paralysis! you are walking with one foot nailed to the floor and the nail is your own quest to see everything in such a precise, ordered way....you have an inherent need to have everything 'just so'....
Well you need to let go of that obsession.
nothing can be that way, because everything changes from second to second!
One question: in my meditation, how to know/feel present moment during the gap between two breaths? this, though seems to be a weird question as we are in present moment, but i am finding it hard to know it in meditation.
There is always something to be aware of, physically or mentally.
You can force out thoughts with will, but this is not the way. Meditation will not be stable and it won't go deeper. You don't force meditation, you let it happen. People are always trying to make things happen, but that's not what you do in meditation. We do this trying because we think we are the master of our mind, but this is not how it is. We think that we can control it, but this is not how it is.
So the thing is to not do it. Just let the thoughts fade away. So thoughts are not the enemy; you do not fight them. But don't introduce useless thoughts either, because that's doing something again.
If thoughts don't fade away, you are too attached to them and don't appreciate the silence enough. This is very common and it's natural; you have a lifetime of thinking behind you, don't expect to change this suddenly. The momentum of thinking is big and it takes most people a while to let this momentum subside. It may take many months or maybe even years of practice. You can help this process by focussing on the silence between thoughts, which is what you can focus on between breaths.
You can notice being in the present moment if you are silent & peaceful. Again, in the gap between the breaths, you can focus on this also. In fact it is quite impossible to neglect this feeling.
Also, don't rush of onto the localized breath to soon. Take a few minutes at least to feel the body, the whole breath. Let the mind settle, let is get more quiet. Only then go onto the breath at the nose, or wherever you like to feel it. If you focus on a small sensation with a coarse mind, it will be very hard.
when not doing sitting meditation, how to be mindful of the present moment when doing daily activities like going to work, working in office, making tea in home etc? any suggestions please. thanks in advance.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Impossible to form a habit instantly. did you walk the moment you had legs? Did you hold a spoon correctly the first minute you craved food? Practice with no guilt, no self recrimination, no obligation. Pick a short task - making tea, potting a plant, washing a cup and saucer, going to the toilet, eating an apple.
consider these tasks mindfully, and carry them out without any mental diatribe or commentary. do not think, "I am making tea" "I am potting a plant" "I am washing a cup and saucer" "I am going to the toilet" "I am eating an apple".
Just - make tea pot a plant wash the cup and saucer go to the toilet eat an apple.
Don't 'think'. Don't 'say'. 'Do' and 'watch'.
Pick 3 short tasks a day, and gradually perfect them. Then you can consider doing it for longer periods.
There are different approaches. Here's a brief excerpt from the Satipatthana Sutta which is describing how to be mindful of bodily posture:
"Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns, 'I am walking.' When standing, he discerns, 'I am standing.' When sitting, he discerns, 'I am sitting.' When lying down, he discerns, 'I am lying down.' Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it.
"In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself."
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Discernment means to notice, or be aware of, mentally. It still does not imply dialogue....
You simple become 100% aware of matters without adding dialogue, because one word leads to another....
i think i am caught in a paradox now. let me explain. theoretically we know, meditation is letting go, so in meditation we do not do anything and just be aware of what is happening. but if i just sit and do not do anything, then the mind gets entangled in some thought, so i have to cut the thought and come back to present moment. now the weird thing which is happening is - during the silence between two breaths, somehow something inside my mind is trying to listen the silence - i know it is a stupid thing to say because if we can hear silence, then it will be sound and not silence - but something inside my mind is trying to hear/feel this silence, don't know exactly what is happening here.
now if i just sit and don't do anything, then the mind keeps getting entangled in thought - moreover i still feel some ache in my back after some duration - don't know if i am moving forward on the meditation path, or moving in round circle and coming back to starting point, or doing it in a wrong way so not going anywhere - though i know someone will say there is no right meditation and no wrong meditation, and no where to go in meditation.
sometime this weird thought comes to my mind - if i just have to sit and do nothing, my mind is not getting trained into anything, so am i wasting time in just sitting, instead of wasting time in seeing tv or enjoying myself in sense pleasures.
any suggestions please. thanks in advance.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited June 2012
....theoretically we know, meditation is letting go, so in meditation we do not do anything and just be aware of what is happening. but if i just sit and do not do anything, then the mind gets entangled in some thought, so i have to cut the thought and come back to present moment. now the weird thing which is happening is - during the silence between two breaths, somehow something inside my mind is trying to listen the silence - i know it is a stupid thing to say because if we can hear silence, then it will be sound and not silence - but something inside my mind is trying to hear/feel this silence, don't know exactly what is happening here.
You're meditating. Things are as they should be. In the Tibetan Book of Living & Dying, Sogyal Rinpoche explains that we just need to make this silent gap wider. you're observing the right result.
now if i just sit and don't do anything, then the mind keeps getting entangled in thought - moreover i still feel some ache in my back after some duration - don't know if i am moving forward on the meditation path, or moving in round circle and coming back to starting point, or doing it in a wrong way so not going anywhere - though i know someone will say there is no right meditation and no wrong meditation, and no where to go in meditation.
Yup, that's about right. And if you feel pain, adjust. that's allowed.
sometime this weird thought comes to my mind - if i just have to sit and do nothing, my mind is not getting trained into anything, so am i wasting time in just sitting, instead of wasting time in seeing tv or enjoying myself in sense pleasures.
That's because you fail to get the point. But you achieved the point. Peace between thoughts.
any suggestions please. thanks in advance.
Now make those 'peace between thoughts' a little longer, bit by bit. Make right Effort, but not all-consuming, strenuous, do-or-die effort. Breathe, sit, and be still.
when not doing sitting meditation, how to be mindful of the present moment when doing daily activities like going to work, working in office, making tea in home etc? any suggestions please. thanks in advance.
The best daily mindfulness to start with is mindfulness of the precepts.
when not doing sitting meditation, how to be mindful of the present moment when doing daily activities like going to work, working in office, making tea in home etc? any suggestions please. thanks in advance.
The best daily practice of mindfulness is mindfulness of the precepts. Keep the precepts in the forefront of the mind. This is both a mindfulness (remembering) practice and a practice of conduct.
Besides that, I often find it useful to practice mindfulness of the body during activities. But the precepts are really the best practice I think.
You can't be mindful of the present moment. You can only be mindful IN the present moment. Mindfulness needs an object, in body or mind. The present moment is not such an object. Still a lot of teachers use this terminology, but they mean mindfulness of the things that arise in the moment, not the moment itself.Hope this can clarify things a bit.
but something inside my mind is trying to hear/feel this silence, don't know exactly what is happening here.
What I suggested before when you asked what to observe between two breaths is now happening; you observe the silence. This is a natural result, the mind inclines towards it.
This is good. As I also said before (so you can look back for a more eleborate reply) and as @Federica just said: Focus on this silence and it will grow, become longer. Eventually all thoughts will fade away.
The voice that says 'this is not silence' is just chatter. The voice that says 'return to the breath' can also notice as chatter. Meditation is. There is no wrong meditation. Your mouth may be watering about how silence feels. That is chatter.
You are experiencing 'hot boredom' which is a stage after the excitement of newness. Push on through for cold boredom where your meditation is like a mountain stream and just is; it can be itself.
You are experiencing 'hot boredom' which is a stage after the excitement of newness. Push on through for cold boredom where your meditation is like a mountain stream and just is; it can be itself.
@Jeffrey: i think i did not understand what you said above. please explain in slightly more detail. thanks in advance.
Sometimes it's not that you haven't found meditation, just that meditation has not found you yet. So maybe you should go do something you find more pleasurable than meditation for the time being. If you have meditation in you, it will appear by itself. Even when you are enjoying doing other things. In a way, meditation is like having the light on in our head, we see ourselves doing things. When we feel that what we are doing might lead us to suffering, then we can see that and stop it from happening. It takes a bit of awareness to notice it, but it is the same awareness that we are suppose to develop with meditation.
Hot boredom is a term Trungpa Rinpoche used. It means that you are very concerned with where you are and what else you could do. What is the right book? Is my meditation any good? When will I get to the good stuff?
Cool boredom is when you let go and just be effortless in sitting not demanding any experience. Just like 'here I am'. Let the meditation happen. That effortlessness actually points to the right effort in the 8fold because right effort is joyful. Liberation stewing is the joy released.
Does that make sense. I am not sure I have this right, I'm just going from my readings of Trungpa and my own meditation practice which is derailed by my illness.
So maybe you should go do something you find more pleasurable than meditation for the time being.
Meditation is not always pleasurable, but it's our own mind we are fighting, we ourselves create the problems. So to do something else is just putting it of; pushing away the problems that are in our own mind anyway. This doesn't do anything but delaying the challenge.
sometime this weird thought comes to my mind - if i just have to sit and do nothing, my mind is not getting trained into anything, so am i wasting time in just sitting, instead of wasting time in seeing tv or enjoying myself in sense pleasures.
So when you have these kinds of thoughts, perhaps you do not have enough positive thoughts to fight off the negative thoughts. You realize that seeing TV and enjoying sense pleasures is a waste of time, but you don't see the difference between that and meditation. I think you just need to take a break. Then you will see that meditation is more valuable.
This doesn't do anything but delaying the challenge.
I agree with you, but sometimes we need a break. We can't develop a meditative mind by just sitting alone. Sometimes it takes realizing that we are already doing the right thing. I think that maybe he is already gone far enough into the practice to not put off meditation completely. I'm sure taking a break will not be a problem. Sometimes we need to investigate things with a meditative mind to know that these other things are not more valuable than meditation.
@misecmisc1 Cool boredom is when you let go and just be effortless in sitting not demanding any experience. Just like 'here I am'. Let the meditation happen. That effortlessness actually points to the right effort in the 8fold because right effort is joyful.
@Jeffrey/All: So here comes a question. it is said that meditation is letting go and not doing anything in it. But when a thought comes and the mind tries to get entangled in it, then - should we not try to cut that thought - or - should we not do anything and just let the mind get entangled in the thought? i think it is also said that we should cut the thought and bring the mind back to meditation object - which means some doing is involved in it. so how to know when to do something and when not to do anything. is there a paradox here that both doing and not-doing are involved in meditation? or am i missing something here? please suggest.
I'm not sure what tradition you follow so just take what I say with a grain of salt.
In my practice I view thoughts as luminous displays of dependent origination. With such view one doesn't need to get rid of thoughts. Thoughts appear due to conditions and they drop away due to conditions.
Thus any aversion or attachment towards a thought is extra.
Bare attention is very important when it comes to meditation. In thinking just thoughts, no thinker. The thought is all there is. There is no awareness watching the thought. That sensation of an awareness watching a thought creates the illusion that one can control thoughts and that one is apart from thoughts. But that awareness is merely a non conceptual grasping between the space of thoughts.
What you must realize is that in the process of thinking there is only the arising thought. There is no extra awareness. The thought itself is the awareness. And each instant of thought is disjointed.
That means one thought. another thought. another thought. There is no true link other than thought itself.
Now if this can be done in bare attention one should examine the corelessness of thought. Thought itself is magical. It appears to no one. It abides no where. It goes no where. It is a luminous display of dependent origination.
Thinking (mind sense making contact with mental object) = thought consciouness.
Because of conditioned arising the thought is completely coreless and devoid of entity. But that doesn't deny its vivid, luminous arising.
So I know that's a lot of crap to take in.
Its best to have right view, which can be directly touched through direct perception.
For instance, say to yourself in thinking just thoughts no thinker. The thinker is an after thought. An inference. There is no thinker behind the thought. There is only the thought. Just focus on that.
Thus the thought shouldn't be let go of. But the thought should be seen for what it is. Just a thought.
Once you get good at that. Insert the 18 dhatus. Start to see how the sense organs make contact with sense objects thus resulting in that instant of consciousness. All of this is happening simultaneously. But this is difficult unless one can have bare attention as this arising thought, smell, taste, sensation, sound, color/shape/form.
Bare attention is very important when it comes to meditation. ....There is no awareness watching the thought.
This seems to be direct contradiction to the way mindfulness ( sati ) is described in the Sattipathanna Sutta, where there always is bare attention ( "awareness" ) of something. The 4th foundation describes bare attention of mental objects, including thoughts.
" In the Theravada or ‘Way of the Elders’ tradition, a very important doctrine is that of the Three Characteristics of Existence, namely anicca (impermanence), dukkha (unsatisfactoriness), and anatta (non-self). Both in theory and practice, insight into the Three Characteristics is considered of paramount importance in the realization of nibbana, the ultimate state of freedom from all suffering. Nyanaponika describes the heart of Buddhist meditation as the simple but effective method of bare attention, which he defines as ‘the clear and single-minded awareness of what actually happens to us and in us, at the successive moments of perception’. Bare attention consists in the bare and exact registering of the object of perception through the six senses (eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and mind) before associative and abstract thinking takes place. Sustained and diligent application of bare attention to the four domains of mindfulness, namely the body, feelings, mind, and mental objects, is thought to lead the meditator to the realization that nowhere behind or within the psychophysical continuum can any individual agent or abiding entity called the ‘self’ be detected. Nyanaponika also emphasizes the usefulness of anapanasati or mindfulness of breathing in enabling the meditator to see the conditioned nature of the body, by virtue of the very fact that the breathing process is dynamic, essentially linked to existence, and dependent on the efficient functioning of certain organs. The nature of the body as activated by impersonal processess, and thus without any substance, thus becomes evident.
Dhiravamsa, another contemporary meditation teacher in the Theravada tradition, advocates the practice of non-attached awareness, which consists in the dynamic and alert observation of all sensations, emotions, and thoughts. He emphasizes the need to spontaneously observe and investigate one’s experience free from the grip of authority – be they some teacher’s words or one’s preconceived ideas. According to him, meditation can be found by looking, listening, touching, tasting, talking, walking, standing, in all movements and in all activities. For example, when one is able to look or listen with great attentiveness, clarity, and without a single thought, one can then experience the flow of awareness that is without any reactivity, reasoning, and sense of self. In talking about hearing with awareness, he says:
If there were myself acting as the hearer apart from the hearing, then "I am" would be separated from "myself" which has no corresponding reality. For "I am" and "myself" is one and the same thing. Hence I am hearing.
In this experience of the non-duality of subject and object, there is a realization of the absence of any permanent and independently existing ‘experiencer’ apart from the experience. This state is characterized by tremendous joy and bliss, a great clarity of understanding and complete freedom.
Ajahn Sumedho, a foremost Western disciple of the famous Thai meditation master Ajahn Chah, speaks about the silent observation of all that arises and passes away in one’s body and mind in an open spirit of ‘letting go’. The gentle calming and silencing of the mind is encouraged so as to create a space in which to observe the conditions of the body and mind. In particular, meditation on the body is done with a sweeping awareness of all the various sensations that arise throughout the body, for example the pressure of one’s clothes on the body or the subtle vibrations on the hands and feet. This awareness can also be concentrated in a gentle and peaceful way on any particular area of the body for further investigation. The mind, consisting of perceptions (sanna), sensations (vedana), mental formations (sankhara), and consciousness (vinnana), is also observed with a silent awareness. As Ajahn Sumedho says:
Investigate these until you fully understand that all that rises passes away and is not self. Then there’s no grasping of anything as being oneself, and you are free from that desire to know yourself as a quality or a substance. This is liberation from birth and death.
Another technique advocated by Sumedho is that of listening to one’s thoughts. The meditator is asked to allow mental verbalizations and thoughts to arise in the mind without suppressing or grasping after them. In this way, what is normally held below the threshold of consciousness is made fully conscious. Verbalizations associated with pride, jealousy, meanness, or whatever emotions are seen for what they are – impermanent, selfless conditions arising and passing away. The thought "Who am I?" is purposefully generated to observe its arising from and dissolving into the empty space of the mind. By doing this, one realizes the lack of a substantial and existing self within the processes of one’s thought.
Thich Nhat Hanh, a Vietnamese Buddhist monk who represents a confluence of both the Theravada and Mahayana (literally ‘Great Vehicle’) Zen tradition, is a well-known peace activist as well as respected meditation teacher who leads retreats worldwide on the ‘art of mindful living’. In his teachings, Thich Nhat Hanh emphasizes the twin practices of ‘stopping’ or concentration, and ‘observing’ or insight. In ‘stopping’, one practises conscious breathing in order to come back to oneself and to regain composure of body and mind. In ‘observing’, one illumines one’s body and mind with the light of mindful awareness in order to see deeply their true nature. Through the simple practice of consciously following one’s breath and attending to one’s body in the process of breathing, there comes a time when the breath, body, and mind very naturally becomes unified. One is then ready to clearly observe and look deeply into the feelings (vedana), internal formations (sankhara), and mental objects (dharmas) that arise in the field of awareness. In this process of looking, Thich Nhat Hanh says that to observe is to be one with the object of observation. The subject of observation is not one’s self, but the faculty of mindfulness which has the function of illuminating and transforming. As Thich Nhat Hanh says:
Mindfulness is the observing mind, but it does not stand outside of the object of observation. It goes right into the object and becomes one with it. Because the nature of the observing mind is mindfulness, the observing mind does not lose itself in the object but transforms it by illuminating it, just as the penetrating light of the sun transforms trees and plants.
This method of penetrative observation leads one to realize deeply that the awakened mind is not separate from the deluded mind, and that behind the illumination, there is neither one who illumines nor one who is illumined. In short, the observer is the observed:
If we continue in our mindful observation there will no longer be a duality between observer and observed.
In this respect, Thich Nhat Hanh is articulating an insight essentially similar to that of Dhiravamsa. But Thich Nhat Hanh goes further than that. He says that there comes a point in time at which, when one’s observation of this body and mind becomes sufficiently deep, one realizes directly the essential interdependence of oneself with all beings and indeed, with all things. In this experience of insight, which he calls ‘interbeing’, there is no longer any separation between an independently-existing self and all that is external to it – in fact, one is the world. To experientially understand this profound truth is to have penetrated into the core of anatta.
Shunryu Suzuki (1905-1971), a direct spiritual descendant of the great thirteenth-century Zen master Dogen, came to America from Japan in 1958. His teachings, simple and direct, are focussed around the practice of the ‘beginner’s mind’ – that innocence of first inquiry characterized by the attitude which includes both doubt and possibility, and the ability to perceive things always as fresh and new. Commenting on the practice of breathing in zazen or sitting meditation, he says:
The air comes in and goes out like someone passing through a swinging door. If you think, "I breathe", the "I" is extra. There is no you to say "I". What we call "I" is just a swinging door, which moves when we inhale and when we exhale. It just moves; that is all. When your mind is pure and calm enough to follow this movement, there is nothing: no "I", no world, no mind nor body.
Like Thich Nhat Hanh, Suzuki emphasizes the correct practice of mindful breathing in which there is no independent observer apart from the observed – in other words, the experience of anatta. He goes on to say that when one is fully concentrated on the breathing, there arises the realization of the ‘completely dependent’ yet ‘independent’ nature of existence, of which he says:
When we become truly ourselves, we just become a swinging door, and we are purely independent of, and at the same time, dependent upon everything… So when you practise zazen, your mind should be concentrated on your breathing… Without this experience, this practice, it is impossible to attain absolute freedom."
mindfulness of thinking is the thought. mindfulness of the body is the body. there is no awareness apart from the object.
But sitting here I'm aware of thoughts and an ache in my foot, among other things. So there is consciousness of physical and mental processes. You seem to be denying consciousness?
the sensation is consciousness arising dependent on the conditions of sense organ + sense object making contact.
the thought is consciousness arising dependent on the conditions of mind + mind object making contact.
The I AM is added. There is no I Am other than the thought. Or referencing back to an entity as "awareness".
This I AM is Hinduism and an added extra to experience, which is always non dual and arisen dependent on conditions.
Mindfulness is first attended in the subject/object duality. But eventually the duality collapses because it is just a view on reality and not inherent in reality itself.
Dependent origination happens all at once and the experience is always the effect or consciousness appearing.
Hope this makes things clear. The article above articulates it in various other traditions.
@Jeffrey/All: So here comes a question. it is said that meditation is letting go and not doing anything in it. But when a thought comes and the mind tries to get entangled in it, then - should we not try to cut that thought - or - should we not do anything and just let the mind get entangled in the thought? i think it is also said that we should cut the thought and bring the mind back to meditation object - which means some doing is involved in it. so how to know when to do something and when not to do anything. is there a paradox here that both doing and not-doing are involved in meditation? or am i missing something here? please suggest.
Sometimes we follow our thoughts till it wears off then the attention comes back to the meditation object. Sometimes it is better to bring the attention back ourselves. I think they are both useful. If I feel that my mind is busy with lots of thoughts at the moment, then it would be better to follow the thoughts. If I feel that my mind is relaxed and still, then it's better bring the attention back myself. What do you think?
From my tradition they say to welcome each thought but not dwell. Don't be like 'oh no a thought'... because that's going to happen forever. So you welcome each thought but don't spin off into thoughtworlds where you lose yourself. When you spin off just catch yourself.
If you didn't spin off you wouldn't be able to view that 'coming back'. The coming back is the nature of mind to become aware and it has to do with emptiness of self nature to the thoughts. If the thoughts were permanent you would never be able to 'come back'.
- so i m trying to stop a thought with another thought - then i say to my mind to focus on my breath - then again a thought comes that i m saying to my mind to focus on my breath -
the sensation is consciousness arising dependent on the conditions of sense organ + sense object making contact.
the thought is consciousness arising dependent on the conditions of mind + mind object making contact.
Traditionally contact is the meeting of sense organ, sense-consciousness and sense-object. So for example a blind person wouldn't have visual contact because their eye-consciousness is "missing". But in Buddhism the mind is also considered to be a sense organ, so there is mind, mind-consciouness and mental objects. So there is consciousness of mental objects like thoughts.
Mindfulness is first attended in the subject/object duality. But eventually the duality collapses because it is just a view on reality and not inherent in reality itself.
I'd suggest that it's only at the point of enlightenement that the duality collapses, and until that point we are stuck with the duality, so we have to work with what seems to be happening.
the sensation is consciousness arising dependent on the conditions of sense organ + sense object making contact.
the thought is consciousness arising dependent on the conditions of mind + mind object making contact.
Traditionally contact is the meeting of sense organ, sense-consciousness and sense-object. So for example a blind person wouldn't have visual contact because their eye-consciousness is "missing". But in Buddhism the mind is also considered to be a sense organ, so there is mind, mind-consciouness and mental objects. So there is consciousness of mental objects like thoughts.
if any condition is missing the effect of color, shape, form cannot be expressed.
"Whatever we see, it is not I, not me, nor a man, not a woman. In the eye, there is just color. It arises and passes away. So who is seeing the object? There is no seer in the object. Then how is the object seen? On account of certain causes. What are the causes? Eyes are one cause; they must be intact, in good order. Second, object or color must come in front of the eyes, must reflect on the retina of the eyes. Third, there must be light. Fourth, there must be attention, a mental factor. If those four causes are present, then there arises a knowing faculty called eye consciousness. If any one of the causes is missing, there will not be any seeing. If eyes are blind, no seeing. If there is no light, no seeing. If there is no attention, no seeing. But none of the causes can claim, "I am the seer." They're just constantly arising and passing.
As soon as it passes away, we say, "I am seeing." You are not seeing; you are just thinking, "I am seeing." This is called conditioning. Because our mind is conditioned, when we hear the sound, we say, "I am hearing." But there is no hearer waiting in the car to hear the sound. Sound creates a wave, and, when it strikes against the eardrum, ear consciousness is the effect. Sound is not a man, nor a woman; it is just a sound that arises and passes away. But, according to our conditioning, we say, "That woman is singing and I am hearing." But you're not hearing, you are thinking, "I am hearing." Sound is already heard and gone. There is no "I" who heard the sound; it is the world of concept. Buddha discovered this in the physical level, in the mental level: how everything is happening without an actor, without a doer - empty phenomenon go rolling on."
Mind is also non dual already. Always just thoughts no thinker. No awareness having thoughts. That awareness is just the space between thoughts, which is just another thought.
Well, after going through above posts of @taiyaki, one question came to my mind now: at any single moment, does the mind is doing only one activity or it can do multiple activities? sounds like a wierd question - but let me try to explain the question - in my meditation, sometimes i have observed that (due to my always chattering mind) when i was observing the silence gap, then in the background i was feeling that a very slow chatter was going on asking - is currently there is some thought or is it silence or is my mind's attention going towards external sounds. it is wierd to say this, but i think i was observing this that even though i think there was no thought at that time and it was silence and somehow the external sounds were low, still that questioning was somehow coming to my mind - is there currently no thought in my mind or is there some thought somewhere. so this lead me to ask the above question that at any single moment, can the mind be doing more than one activity parallely, or it does one activity and then moves on to some other activity so quickly that we cannot notice it but doing only one activity at any moment?
One story, i heard, which i think you all should have also heard about the teacher taking the student up the hill to show the sunset and the condition was that if the student spoke, then the teacher will not take that student again with him. the reason the teacher said was - if the student spoke like what a beautiful sunset, then the student was not seeing the sunset, but seeing the words. So this story also does it suggest that - at any moment, the mind can do only one activity - like if speaking, then seeing the words - if hearing, then hearing the sound - if seeing, then seeing the object etc - or - can the mind do multiple activities in parallel in a single moment?
Any ideas please. Thanks in advance.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
You mean, can the mind multi-task with no connection between the tasks?
Of course it can. which is why you can be washing up and thinking about getting the car fixed, at the same time.
You mean, can the mind multi-task with no connection between the tasks?
Of course it can. which is why you can be washing up and thinking about getting the car fixed, at the same time.
(At least, women can...:D)
But isn't attention constantly switching between tasks? So even a womans mind can't pay attention to 2 things in the same moment?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Actually, yes we can. I can be knitting and following a tv programme, or baking a cake and listening to a discussion programme on BBCRadio 4 or be doing the ironing and supervise a child...
Notice how all these tasks have a "Yin" and a "Yang", that is to say, one is passive, the other is active... but they nevertheless both require paying attention....
Comments
@porpoise and @zero: Thanks for your reply too.
Recognising extremes is a good thing in my opinion because the futility of it leads to the middle.
Some quotes that apply so well here, I don't need to add anything to it: http://amitabhabuddha.wordpress.com/2011/01/31/reflections-on-metta-by-ajahn-sumedo/
There always needs to be some metta in your meditation to make it work, but it is also possible to emphasize it in your practice. In your case that will be very beneficial, I think. You can google yourself for some more information on how to do this - I recommend finding some guided meditations, but here is just something to get you started:
http://info.med.yale.edu/psych/3s/metta.html
With metta,
Sabre
Dont worry you're not alone... we're all "too" something sometimes... in my mind, your statement that you will "work on yourself" is closer to achieving the aim of meditation than your concern for a "perfect" meditation session... I know you've heard the cliche "take it easy on yourself" "relax" "maybe try something else" a million times already but that may be the only real answer...
Try to find as many different ways of working on yourself as you can - say you find 10 and meditation is one of them, hopefully the 9 other tasks will show you that a small issue (like saliva) in meditation (1 out of 10) is really not a huge issue - perhaps that will allow you to naturally fall into a practice that suits - try to hold on to the fact that it is our differences that makes us what we are - perhaps sitting down meditation is just not for you... personally I'm naturally a walking / pacer - for me, sitting meditation is the most infrequent of my practice whereas walking meditation was absolutely natural - this for me has the added side effect that when I do sit, it is somehow like starting practice fresh so all of my fidgets fly away as it is not something that I have had to artificially habituate...
Good luck mate...
@sabre: Thanks for your reply too.
You're welcome. Once again, I'd really advice you to try metta meditation. I can't emphasize enough how important it is. After a while, let me know how it went.
One question: in my meditation, how to know/feel present moment during the gap between two breaths? this, though seems to be a weird question as we are in present moment, but i am finding it hard to know it in meditation.
let me tell what i have tried as i have tried both not doing anything and trying to keep focus on tip of nose or face -
if i do nothing and just sit, then my back seems to drop from its curve posture, head starts dropping and eventually some thought process starts and then i feel the back has lost its straightness and the head is dropped.
if i try to keep focus on the tip of my nose, then only during breathing when the air is going, i can feel it, but during the gap between two breaths that focus gets lost somewhere and only in the next breath, i am able to feel the tip of my nose.
if i try to keep focus on the face, then also something weird happens, even i am closing my eyes still the eyes try to see something in the darkness. this does not bothers me much, but the point is i am not able to be in the present moment - how to know if i am in the present moment?
if i try to force myself to be in present moment by not trying to think anything, this could not last more than 5 sec.
in my meditation, there are periods of gaps between two breaths - during breathing, i know i am breathing but during the gaps, which are slightly long, i am not feeling/knowing that i am in the present moment in that gap.
so my question is : how to know if i am in the present moment during the gap and keep this knowing going through during the meditation?
stop 'trying'.
just do it.
'do' or 'do not.' there is no 'try'.
when you try, you achieve nothing.
try picking up a book.
do not actually pick up the book. just try' to pick it up.
ridiculous, right? ..stop with the try. just notice the tip of your nose. it's fine.
.. stop with the try. just notice the tip of your nose. it's fine. stop with the try. just notice the tip of your nose.
now you are in the present moment, because every single nano-second is the present moment. how can it not be?
whether you notice it or not, you are.
whether you acknowledge it or not, you are.
whether you realise it or not, you are.
Jeesh....
I truly have never met somebody who analyses things to such an extent that they tie themselves in such knots!
Hyper-analysis causes paralysis! you are walking with one foot nailed to the floor and the nail is your own quest to see everything in such a precise, ordered way....you have an inherent need to have everything 'just so'....
Well you need to let go of that obsession.
nothing can be that way, because everything changes from second to second!
JUST - LET - IT - BE - !!
So the thing is to not do it. Just let the thoughts fade away. So thoughts are not the enemy; you do not fight them. But don't introduce useless thoughts either, because that's doing something again.
If thoughts don't fade away, you are too attached to them and don't appreciate the silence enough. This is very common and it's natural; you have a lifetime of thinking behind you, don't expect to change this suddenly. The momentum of thinking is big and it takes most people a while to let this momentum subside. It may take many months or maybe even years of practice. You can help this process by focussing on the silence between thoughts, which is what you can focus on between breaths.
You can notice being in the present moment if you are silent & peaceful. Again, in the gap between the breaths, you can focus on this also. In fact it is quite impossible to neglect this feeling.
Also, don't rush of onto the localized breath to soon. Take a few minutes at least to feel the body, the whole breath. Let the mind settle, let is get more quiet. Only then go onto the breath at the nose, or wherever you like to feel it. If you focus on a small sensation with a coarse mind, it will be very hard.
Metta!
did you walk the moment you had legs?
Did you hold a spoon correctly the first minute you craved food?
Practice with no guilt, no self recrimination, no obligation.
Pick a short task - making tea, potting a plant, washing a cup and saucer, going to the toilet, eating an apple.
consider these tasks mindfully, and carry them out without any mental diatribe or commentary.
do not think,
"I am making tea"
"I am potting a plant"
"I am washing a cup and saucer"
"I am going to the toilet"
"I am eating an apple".
Just -
make tea
pot a plant
wash the cup and saucer
go to the toilet
eat an apple.
Don't 'think'. Don't 'say'.
'Do' and 'watch'.
Pick 3 short tasks a day, and gradually perfect them.
Then you can consider doing it for longer periods.
During, no.
"Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns, 'I am walking.' When standing, he discerns, 'I am standing.' When sitting, he discerns, 'I am sitting.' When lying down, he discerns, 'I am lying down.' Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it.
"In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself."
It still does not imply dialogue....
You simple become 100% aware of matters without adding dialogue, because one word leads to another....
i think i am caught in a paradox now. let me explain. theoretically we know, meditation is letting go, so in meditation we do not do anything and just be aware of what is happening. but if i just sit and do not do anything, then the mind gets entangled in some thought, so i have to cut the thought and come back to present moment. now the weird thing which is happening is - during the silence between two breaths, somehow something inside my mind is trying to listen the silence - i know it is a stupid thing to say because if we can hear silence, then it will be sound and not silence - but something inside my mind is trying to hear/feel this silence, don't know exactly what is happening here.
now if i just sit and don't do anything, then the mind keeps getting entangled in thought - moreover i still feel some ache in my back after some duration - don't know if i am moving forward on the meditation path, or moving in round circle and coming back to starting point, or doing it in a wrong way so not going anywhere - though i know someone will say there is no right meditation and no wrong meditation, and no where to go in meditation.
sometime this weird thought comes to my mind - if i just have to sit and do nothing, my mind is not getting trained into anything, so am i wasting time in just sitting, instead of wasting time in seeing tv or enjoying myself in sense pleasures.
any suggestions please. thanks in advance.
Things are as they should be.
In the Tibetan Book of Living & Dying, Sogyal Rinpoche explains that we just need to make this silent gap wider. you're observing the right result. Yup, that's about right. And if you feel pain, adjust. that's allowed. That's because you fail to get the point.
But you achieved the point.
Peace between thoughts.
Now make those 'peace between thoughts' a little longer, bit by bit. Make right Effort, but not all-consuming, strenuous, do-or-die effort.
Breathe, sit, and be still.
Besides that, I often find it useful to practice mindfulness of the body during activities. But the precepts are really the best practice I think.
You can't be mindful of the present moment. You can only be mindful IN the present moment. Mindfulness needs an object, in body or mind. The present moment is not such an object. Still a lot of teachers use this terminology, but they mean mindfulness of the things that arise in the moment, not the moment itself.Hope this can clarify things a bit.
Metta!
This is good. As I also said before (so you can look back for a more eleborate reply) and as @Federica just said: Focus on this silence and it will grow, become longer. Eventually all thoughts will fade away.
Metta!
You are experiencing 'hot boredom' which is a stage after the excitement of newness. Push on through for cold boredom where your meditation is like a mountain stream and just is; it can be itself.
Metta
Hot boredom is a term Trungpa Rinpoche used. It means that you are very concerned with where you are and what else you could do. What is the right book? Is my meditation any good? When will I get to the good stuff?
Cool boredom is when you let go and just be effortless in sitting not demanding any experience. Just like 'here I am'. Let the meditation happen. That effortlessness actually points to the right effort in the 8fold because right effort is joyful. Liberation stewing is the joy released.
Does that make sense. I am not sure I have this right, I'm just going from my readings of Trungpa and my own meditation practice which is derailed by my illness.
I'm not sure what tradition you follow so just take what I say with a grain of salt.
In my practice I view thoughts as luminous displays of dependent origination. With such view one doesn't need to get rid of thoughts. Thoughts appear due to conditions and they drop away due to conditions.
Thus any aversion or attachment towards a thought is extra.
Bare attention is very important when it comes to meditation. In thinking just thoughts, no thinker. The thought is all there is. There is no awareness watching the thought. That sensation of an awareness watching a thought creates the illusion that one can control thoughts and that one is apart from thoughts. But that awareness is merely a non conceptual grasping between the space of thoughts.
What you must realize is that in the process of thinking there is only the arising thought. There is no extra awareness. The thought itself is the awareness. And each instant of thought is disjointed.
That means one thought. another thought. another thought. There is no true link other than thought itself.
Now if this can be done in bare attention one should examine the corelessness of thought. Thought itself is magical. It appears to no one. It abides no where. It goes no where. It is a luminous display of dependent origination.
Thinking (mind sense making contact with mental object) = thought consciouness.
Because of conditioned arising the thought is completely coreless and devoid of entity. But that doesn't deny its vivid, luminous arising.
So I know that's a lot of crap to take in.
Its best to have right view, which can be directly touched through direct perception.
For instance, say to yourself in thinking just thoughts no thinker. The thinker is an after thought. An inference. There is no thinker behind the thought. There is only the thought. Just focus on that.
Thus the thought shouldn't be let go of. But the thought should be seen for what it is. Just a thought.
Once you get good at that. Insert the 18 dhatus. Start to see how the sense organs make contact with sense objects thus resulting in that instant of consciousness. All of this is happening simultaneously. But this is difficult unless one can have bare attention as this arising thought, smell, taste, sensation, sound, color/shape/form.
mindfulness of the body is the body.
there is no awareness apart from the object.
In the Theravada or ‘Way of the Elders’ tradition, a very important doctrine is that of the Three Characteristics of Existence, namely anicca (impermanence), dukkha (unsatisfactoriness), and anatta (non-self). Both in theory and practice, insight into the Three Characteristics is considered of paramount importance in the realization of nibbana, the ultimate state of freedom from all suffering. Nyanaponika describes the heart of Buddhist meditation as the simple but effective method of bare attention, which he defines as ‘the clear and single-minded awareness of what actually happens to us and in us, at the successive moments of perception’. Bare attention consists in the bare and exact registering of the object of perception through the six senses (eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and mind) before associative and abstract thinking takes place. Sustained and diligent application of bare attention to the four domains of mindfulness, namely the body, feelings, mind, and mental objects, is thought to lead the meditator to the realization that nowhere behind or within the psychophysical continuum can any individual agent or abiding entity called the ‘self’ be detected. Nyanaponika also emphasizes the usefulness of anapanasati or mindfulness of breathing in enabling the meditator to see the conditioned nature of the body, by virtue of the very fact that the breathing process is dynamic, essentially linked to existence, and dependent on the efficient functioning of certain organs. The nature of the body as activated by impersonal processess, and thus without any substance, thus becomes evident.
Dhiravamsa, another contemporary meditation teacher in the Theravada tradition, advocates the practice of non-attached awareness, which consists in the dynamic and alert observation of all sensations, emotions, and thoughts. He emphasizes the need to spontaneously observe and investigate one’s experience free from the grip of authority – be they some teacher’s words or one’s preconceived ideas. According to him, meditation can be found by looking, listening, touching, tasting, talking, walking, standing, in all movements and in all activities. For example, when one is able to look or listen with great attentiveness, clarity, and without a single thought, one can then experience the flow of awareness that is without any reactivity, reasoning, and sense of self. In talking about hearing with awareness, he says:
If there were myself acting as the hearer apart from the hearing, then "I am" would be separated from "myself" which has no corresponding reality. For "I am" and "myself" is one and the same thing. Hence I am hearing.
In this experience of the non-duality of subject and object, there is a realization of the absence of any permanent and independently existing ‘experiencer’ apart from the experience. This state is characterized by tremendous joy and bliss, a great clarity of understanding and complete freedom.
Ajahn Sumedho, a foremost Western disciple of the famous Thai meditation master Ajahn Chah, speaks about the silent observation of all that arises and passes away in one’s body and mind in an open spirit of ‘letting go’. The gentle calming and silencing of the mind is encouraged so as to create a space in which to observe the conditions of the body and mind. In particular, meditation on the body is done with a sweeping awareness of all the various sensations that arise throughout the body, for example the pressure of one’s clothes on the body or the subtle vibrations on the hands and feet. This awareness can also be concentrated in a gentle and peaceful way on any particular area of the body for further investigation. The mind, consisting of perceptions (sanna), sensations (vedana), mental formations (sankhara), and consciousness (vinnana), is also observed with a silent awareness. As Ajahn Sumedho says:
Investigate these until you fully understand that all that rises passes away and is not self. Then there’s no grasping of anything as being oneself, and you are free from that desire to know yourself as a quality or a substance. This is liberation from birth and death.
Another technique advocated by Sumedho is that of listening to one’s thoughts. The meditator is asked to allow mental verbalizations and thoughts to arise in the mind without suppressing or grasping after them. In this way, what is normally held below the threshold of consciousness is made fully conscious. Verbalizations associated with pride, jealousy, meanness, or whatever emotions are seen for what they are – impermanent, selfless conditions arising and passing away. The thought "Who am I?" is purposefully generated to observe its arising from and dissolving into the empty space of the mind. By doing this, one realizes the lack of a substantial and existing self within the processes of one’s thought.
Thich Nhat Hanh, a Vietnamese Buddhist monk who represents a confluence of both the Theravada and Mahayana (literally ‘Great Vehicle’) Zen tradition, is a well-known peace activist as well as respected meditation teacher who leads retreats worldwide on the ‘art of mindful living’. In his teachings, Thich Nhat Hanh emphasizes the twin practices of ‘stopping’ or concentration, and ‘observing’ or insight. In ‘stopping’, one practises conscious breathing in order to come back to oneself and to regain composure of body and mind. In ‘observing’, one illumines one’s body and mind with the light of mindful awareness in order to see deeply their true nature. Through the simple practice of consciously following one’s breath and attending to one’s body in the process of breathing, there comes a time when the breath, body, and mind very naturally becomes unified. One is then ready to clearly observe and look deeply into the feelings (vedana), internal formations (sankhara), and mental objects (dharmas) that arise in the field of awareness. In this process of looking, Thich Nhat Hanh says that to observe is to be one with the object of observation. The subject of observation is not one’s self, but the faculty of mindfulness which has the function of illuminating and transforming. As Thich Nhat Hanh says:
Mindfulness is the observing mind, but it does not stand outside of the object of observation. It goes right into the object and becomes one with it. Because the nature of the observing mind is mindfulness, the observing mind does not lose itself in the object but transforms it by illuminating it, just as the penetrating light of the sun transforms trees and plants.
This method of penetrative observation leads one to realize deeply that the awakened mind is not separate from the deluded mind, and that behind the illumination, there is neither one who illumines nor one who is illumined. In short, the observer is the observed:
If we continue in our mindful observation there will no longer be a duality between observer and observed.
In this respect, Thich Nhat Hanh is articulating an insight essentially similar to that of Dhiravamsa. But Thich Nhat Hanh goes further than that. He says that there comes a point in time at which, when one’s observation of this body and mind becomes sufficiently deep, one realizes directly the essential interdependence of oneself with all beings and indeed, with all things. In this experience of insight, which he calls ‘interbeing’, there is no longer any separation between an independently-existing self and all that is external to it – in fact, one is the world. To experientially understand this profound truth is to have penetrated into the core of anatta.
Shunryu Suzuki (1905-1971), a direct spiritual descendant of the great thirteenth-century Zen master Dogen, came to America from Japan in 1958. His teachings, simple and direct, are focussed around the practice of the ‘beginner’s mind’ – that innocence of first inquiry characterized by the attitude which includes both doubt and possibility, and the ability to perceive things always as fresh and new. Commenting on the practice of breathing in zazen or sitting meditation, he says:
The air comes in and goes out like someone passing through a swinging door. If you think, "I breathe", the "I" is extra. There is no you to say "I". What we call "I" is just a swinging door, which moves when we inhale and when we exhale. It just moves; that is all. When your mind is pure and calm enough to follow this movement, there is nothing: no "I", no world, no mind nor body.
Like Thich Nhat Hanh, Suzuki emphasizes the correct practice of mindful breathing in which there is no independent observer apart from the observed – in other words, the experience of anatta. He goes on to say that when one is fully concentrated on the breathing, there arises the realization of the ‘completely dependent’ yet ‘independent’ nature of existence, of which he says:
When we become truly ourselves, we just become a swinging door, and we are purely independent of, and at the same time, dependent upon everything… So when you practise zazen, your mind should be concentrated on your breathing… Without this experience, this practice, it is impossible to attain absolute freedom."
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/search?q=mindfulness+of+body
the thought is consciousness arising dependent on the conditions of mind + mind object making contact.
The I AM is added. There is no I Am other than the thought. Or referencing back to an entity as "awareness".
This I AM is Hinduism and an added extra to experience, which is always non dual and arisen dependent on conditions.
Mindfulness is first attended in the subject/object duality. But eventually the duality collapses because it is just a view on reality and not inherent in reality itself.
Dependent origination happens all at once and the experience is always the effect or consciousness appearing.
Hope this makes things clear. The article above articulates it in various other traditions.
If you didn't spin off you wouldn't be able to view that 'coming back'. The coming back is the nature of mind to become aware and it has to do with emptiness of self nature to the thoughts. If the thoughts were permanent you would never be able to 'come back'.
- so i m trying to stop a thought with another thought - then i say to my mind to focus on my breath - then again a thought comes that i m saying to my mind to focus on my breath -
And you do that each day for about 20 to 30 minutes for the rest of your life!
May the joy of meditation be with you.
But in Buddhism the mind is also considered to be a sense organ, so there is mind, mind-consciouness and mental objects. So there is consciousness of mental objects like thoughts.
"Whatever we see, it is not I, not me, nor a man, not a woman. In the eye, there is just color. It arises and passes away. So who is seeing the object? There is no seer in the object. Then how is the object seen? On account of certain causes. What are the causes? Eyes are one cause; they must be intact, in good order. Second, object or color must come in front of the eyes, must reflect on the retina of the eyes. Third, there must be light. Fourth, there must be attention, a mental factor. If those four causes are present, then there arises a knowing faculty called eye consciousness. If any one of the causes is missing, there will not be any seeing. If eyes are blind, no seeing. If there is no light, no seeing. If there is no attention, no seeing. But none of the causes can claim, "I am the seer." They're just constantly arising and passing.
As soon as it passes away, we say, "I am seeing." You are not seeing; you are just thinking, "I am seeing." This is called conditioning. Because our mind is conditioned, when we hear the sound, we say, "I am hearing." But there is no hearer waiting in the car to hear the sound. Sound creates a wave, and, when it strikes against the eardrum, ear consciousness is the effect. Sound is not a man, nor a woman; it is just a sound that arises and passes away. But, according to our conditioning, we say, "That woman is singing and I am hearing." But you're not hearing, you are thinking, "I am hearing." Sound is already heard and gone. There is no "I" who heard the sound; it is the world of concept. Buddha discovered this in the physical level, in the mental level: how everything is happening without an actor, without a doer - empty phenomenon go rolling on."
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/search/label/Munindra
Mind is also non dual already. Always just thoughts no thinker. No awareness having thoughts. That awareness is just the space between thoughts, which is just another thought.
@porpoise: nice discussion going on with @taiyaki.
Well, after going through above posts of @taiyaki, one question came to my mind now: at any single moment, does the mind is doing only one activity or it can do multiple activities? sounds like a wierd question - but let me try to explain the question - in my meditation, sometimes i have observed that (due to my always chattering mind) when i was observing the silence gap, then in the background i was feeling that a very slow chatter was going on asking - is currently there is some thought or is it silence or is my mind's attention going towards external sounds. it is wierd to say this, but i think i was observing this that even though i think there was no thought at that time and it was silence and somehow the external sounds were low, still that questioning was somehow coming to my mind - is there currently no thought in my mind or is there some thought somewhere. so this lead me to ask the above question that at any single moment, can the mind be doing more than one activity parallely, or it does one activity and then moves on to some other activity so quickly that we cannot notice it but doing only one activity at any moment?
One story, i heard, which i think you all should have also heard about the teacher taking the student up the hill to show the sunset and the condition was that if the student spoke, then the teacher will not take that student again with him. the reason the teacher said was - if the student spoke like what a beautiful sunset, then the student was not seeing the sunset, but seeing the words. So this story also does it suggest that - at any moment, the mind can do only one activity - like if speaking, then seeing the words - if hearing, then hearing the sound - if seeing, then seeing the object etc - or - can the mind do multiple activities in parallel in a single moment?
Any ideas please. Thanks in advance.
Of course it can.
which is why you can be washing up and thinking about getting the car fixed, at the same time.
(At least, women can...:D)
I can be knitting and following a tv programme, or baking a cake and listening to a discussion programme on BBCRadio 4 or be doing the ironing and supervise a child...
Notice how all these tasks have a "Yin" and a "Yang", that is to say, one is passive, the other is active... but they nevertheless both require paying attention....