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btw when i started doing kasina meditation, i would do little meditation sessions at work (about 10 minutes) where i just choose a object and stare at it.
after about 5 minutes theses kind of things would start to happen "a slight greying shading starts (means the intensity of the outer light gets reduced)"
the first time it happen the peripheral vision just went dark really quickly, so much so that i started to look around because i thought someone had closed the lights in the building
i recommend everyone to try this (kasina meditation) as, at least for me, interesting things can happen really quickly, even the first time you try; which can be a very welcome thing since progress with breath meditation can sometimes be harder to notice and come more gradually... It's also a great way to realize what kind of attention one should put on the breath when doing breath meditation.
about the "a slight greying shading starts (means the intensity of the outer light gets reduced)"
did you ever try kasina meditation?
heard this kasina meditation for the first time now, so not aware what it is, so not tried till now.
But what i get from your explanation about it relating to staring an object, what it seems common to my experience is that when i am doing some work or walking or sitting, i try to still my face and then try to feel my natural breath - sometimes just trying to see my nose, or some object in front of my eyes (though i do not try to stare at it and even not try to look at it properly, just my eyes are open and some object is in front of me) - then when i try to be aware of my natural breathing, then after few seconds, these things happen of outer light intensity getting slightly reduced and some muscles of my face start moving a little like a tingling occurring and then when i try to feel how i am feeling at that moment, i feel like a pleasant feeling coming to me and simultaneously my facial expression( i feel ) turns like when i am smiling a little bit.
Using simple labelling like "thinking" can be very effective. Another approach is to label thoughts/emotions/images in terms of the 5 hindrances. Or you can use a descriptive label like "replaying" or "planning".
If I didn't mentioned it before in Zen Meditation I learned to quiet the mind it would be helpful to ask, Who is doing the thinking? And you don't answer the question in your mind and because of this your mind stops. I prefer, "Who am I?" You only do this now and then while you are meditating. Works great!
Using simple labelling like "thinking" can be very effective. Another approach is to label thoughts/emotions/images in terms of the 5 hindrances. Or you can use a descriptive label like "replaying" or "planning".
@spiny: i do not want to use this approach - of labelling thoughts in my mind - because i think this process is like creating a thought process of labelling, then thinking in mind classifying it and then labelling it in mind, which is in a way adding to a small chat to the existing chat already going on in the mind - moreover i feel if i label it so, then my mind will start raising another question in my mind like whether currently there is any concentration or i am just trying to figure out what my mind is thinking, which will add more chatter to my mind.
Hi All, these days what i am observing in my meditation is that - after few moments my straight back slumps a little, my head slightly drops, sometimes saliva is coming in my mouth and gulping it destroys the whole situation and then getting back my body in straight posture further destroys everything.
There is no concentration in my meditation. Rather it seems to me sometimes that am I fooling myself sitting in full-lotus position with eyes closed and trying to observe my natural breath, thinking that i am meditating - when in reality since there is no concentration, it is just like sitting and seeing thoughts arising in my mind of all the situations which i am facing in my current life and sometimes getting entangled in my thoughts too. This was the same situation earlier too, so am i moving in round circles, without getting anywhere. It seems quite sad to me.
As throughout this post, any suggestions please. Thanks in advance.
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Barrasoto zenniewandering in a cloud in beautiful, bucolic Victoria BC, on the wacky left coast of CanadaVeteran
An earlier response talked about "labelling" your thoughts. In your experience this leads to more thinking. But the point of it is to make the realization that you are thinking. So you realize - for example - that you are caught up in thinking about what happened at work yesterday. As soon as you become aware that this is what is going on, you could 'label' it as "thinking about yesterday", realize that you don't need to do it, and bring your attention back to your breathing. If you don't want to put the label on it, that's OK, because the point of the 'realization of thinking' is to let it go. The whole process of meditation is to let go. over and over again.
There is no concentration in my meditation. Rather it seems to me sometimes that am I fooling myself ...
Sounds like your difficulty is not that you can not concentrate. When your mind wanders off, you are still concentrating on something.
You just need to stop indulging your thoughts. They really are not all that important. The idea is that you exert the energy to keep your mind on one thing, bringing your attention back again and again and again.
Labeling is just a technique to acknowledge you wandered off, woke up, and let go. It is not an analysis. When we label something we are putting it in a box and moving on. In this case returning attention back to your breath. One word like "thinking" is fine until you gain some more stability.
You might also try counting each in and out breath 1/1 through 9/9 and start over at 1.
You might also try a visualisation. Imagine you are in the middle of the ocean. Floating on surface. Each in breath is a wave raising you up and each out breath is a wave going down.
These are all just techniques to help you stay present with your breath. However, the action of returning your attention to the breath is also very beneficial so don't get so discouraged.
@spiny: i do not want to use this approach - of labelling thoughts in my mind - because i think this process is like creating a thought process of labelling, then thinking in mind classifying it and then labelling it in mind, which is in a way adding to a small chat to the existing chat already going on in the mind - moreover i feel if i label it so, then my mind will start raising another question in my mind like whether currently there is any concentration or i am just trying to figure out what my mind is thinking, which will add more chatter to my mind.
Labelling is one of a range of techniques which may be helpful in allowing the mind to quieten down. But yes, it can create more thinking if not applied correctly. The important bit is to return to the breath straight away.
The goal of meditation is not to get rid of thinking
What if I am thinking about breaking a precept?
"No thought deserves a gold medal or a reprimand", Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche
On the cushion you just welcome that thought. It is true that thinking can lead to bad action. But on the cushion you actually strengthen the understanding that you need not act on random thoughts which occur to you. What you resist persists sometimes.
It's an investment. Short term discipline, versus long term meditative stability. When buddha sat under the bodhi tree mara assaulted him with lustful and frightening visions. Buddha turned all of them into flowers with his mind.
Hi All, these days what i am observing in my meditation is that - after few moments my straight back slumps a little, my head slightly drops, sometimes saliva is coming in my mouth and gulping it destroys the whole situation and then getting back my body in straight posture further destroys everything.
You should relax your mind and body before you start your meditation.
1. Find a good sitting position. Just like when we walk into a movie theater, we always look for a good seat so that we can enjoy the hour-long movie.
2. Find a good breathing rhythm, not too long and relaxed that you would fall asleep, and not to short that it would cause your mind to jump around make you lose focus.
3. Find a focal point or theme, something that you can mentally fall back on and not cause you irritation to think about. Anything is fine as long as its 1 thing. Breath, emptiness, impermanence etc.
@spiny: i do not want to use this approach - of labelling thoughts in my mind - because i think this process is like creating a thought process of labelling, then thinking in mind classifying it and then labelling it in mind, which is in a way adding to a small chat to the existing chat already going on in the mind - moreover i feel if i label it so, then my mind will start raising another question in my mind like whether currently there is any concentration or i am just trying to figure out what my mind is thinking, which will add more chatter to my mind.
as other pointed out, there are great advantages of labeling. One of them being that it keeps you doing what you are supposed to do and help prevent getting lost in thoughts. Your mind is very active, same as every beginners, so this method of labeling take advantage of this active mind and put it to good use.
but it's not necessary, and mainly use for vipassana which i don't think you are doing right now am i right?
for concentration meditation (samadhi) I really recommend you to try this kasina meditation i was telling you about earlier.
Hi All, these days what i am observing in my meditation is that - after few moments my straight back slumps a little, my head slightly drops, sometimes saliva is coming in my mouth and gulping it destroys the whole situation and then getting back my body in straight posture further destroys everything.
right now you are creating aversions toward all kind of little things but those are not very helpful to you. there is no "destroy", you just look at the swallowing and return to the breath, peacefully. the actual setback from whatever distraction is very, very small. It is big to you because of your idea that it "destroy" your concentration.
There is no concentration in my meditation. Rather it seems to me sometimes that am I fooling myself
here, just note to yourself "doubt" and go back to the breath.
you have so many doubts but you are doing very well.
it seem that you have a preconceived idea of how your meditation should be like and reality doesn't match that preconceived idea so you are getting frustrated every times something perfectly normal happen.
It is perfectly normal to feel this way as we all had a wrong idea of what should happen in meditation, but just understand that in reality, just noticing the distractions and the thoughts, and returning to the breath peacefully is all you have to do, and progress will keep on coming to you. its that easy.
with time you will understand how well you were doing.
for now, i think you will be doing yourself a favor by just noticing the distractions and returning to the breath, peacefully.
The goal of meditation is not to get rid of thinking
What if I am thinking about breaking a precept?
"No thought deserves a gold medal or a reprimand", Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche
On the cushion you just welcome that thought. It is true that thinking can lead to bad action. But on the cushion you actually strengthen the understanding that you need not act on random thoughts which occur to you. What you resist persists sometimes.
It's an investment. Short term discipline, versus long term meditative stability. When buddha sat under the bodhi tree mara assaulted him with lustful and frightening visions. Buddha turned all of them into flowers with his mind.
I misunderstood your statement. "The goal of meditation is not to get rid of thinking". I agree with this statement other than having it be a goal. Also we do not have to get rid of thinking when it occurs, because that would seem impossible in the first place, but we can still move on to the next thought. That would seem to be the best way to not let a thought cause a bad action.
You should relax your mind and body before you start your meditation.
1. Find a good sitting position. Just like when we walk into a movie theater, we always look for a good seat so that we can enjoy the hour-long movie.
2. Find a good breathing rhythm, not too long and relaxed that you would fall asleep, and not to short that it would cause your mind to jump around make you lose focus.
3. Find a focal point or theme, something that you can mentally fall back on and not cause you irritation to think about. Anything is fine as long as its 1 thing. Breath, emptiness, impermanence etc.
what i am doing in meditation is: 1. I am sitting in full-lotus position. 2. just trying to observe my natural breath. 3. no theme.
Hi All, it seems like the problem is since i am studying what happens in meditation, all these things which may come quite late in meditation or even not come in my case ( because of no concentration in my meditation) - in my meditation, i am trying to imagine those things of later stages - so the mind is trying to feel if it is feeling something in observing the natural breath, try to forcefully be in that feeling for sometime as in case of natural breath the gap between two breaths can be quite long, so during this period my mind tries to make a lot of tries to feel something and in a way my mind keeps on speaking and i keep on listening, later realizing that much time has gone and i observed nothing and in the meanwhile when my eyes were closed, my mind was only chattering to me and there was no concentration in my meditation.
Seems like the more i am studying what the Buddha taught in the mindfulness suttas, the more i am trying to imagine those things in my meditation, even though they will be of much later stages coming after many years or even not coming to me at all seeing the way my meditation is going.
Moreover, i am trying to change my outlook in the external world - by not trying to get entangled in anything and trying to become non-attached to everything - so don't know whether this is indifference or non-attachment which i am manually developing towards others. Not to say being incompassionate and not to help others, but trying manually to become non-attached to everything by manually reminding me that there is no I, so nothing related to me, so let it be as it is - so not able to figure out whether this is indifference towards everything or non-attachment towards everything, which i am manually trying to cultivate in myself.
.....Seems like the more i am studying what the Buddha taught in the mindfulness suttas, the more i am trying to imagine those things in my meditation, even though they will be of much later stages coming after many years or even not coming to me at all seeing the way my meditation is going.
I'd recommend keeping it simple. Mindfulness basically just means paying attention, so mindfulness of breathing means paying attention to the breath. Noticing that you're thinking a lot is actually a sign of progress, so keep at it.
in the above post i have mentioned - Moreover, i am trying to change my outlook in the external world - by not trying to get entangled in anything and trying to become non-attached to everything - so don't know whether this is indifference or non-attachment which i am manually developing towards others. Not to say being incompassionate and not to help others, but trying manually to become non-attached to everything by manually reminding me that there is no I, so nothing related to me, so let it be as it is - so not able to figure out whether this is indifference towards everything or non-attachment towards everything, which i am manually trying to cultivate in myself.
Any views regarding this also, please and whether it shall help indirectly in meditation. Please suggest.
Moreover, i am trying to change my outlook in the external world - by not trying to get entangled in anything and trying to become non-attached to everything - so don't know whether this is indifference or non-attachment which i am manually developing towards others. Not to say being incompassionate and not to help others, but trying manually to become non-attached to everything by manually reminding me that there is no I, so nothing related to me, so let it be as it is - so not able to figure out whether this is indifference towards everything or non-attachment towards everything, which i am manually trying to cultivate in myself.
It may be more helpful to view non-attachment as a result of practice. And maybe look at the basic structures of Buddhist practice, eg the Noble 8 Fold Path.
through contentment one fearlessly opens up and embraces whatever comes nakedly as it is. neither attaching nor pushing away. just fully unreservedly opening up to what is.
thus be content in all things other than your spiritual progress.
indifference is a subtle form of aversion.
total unconditioned acceptance from the heart and mind is manifest wisdom.
Moreover, i am trying to change my outlook in the external world - by not trying to get entangled in anything and trying to become non-attached to everything - so don't know whether this is indifference or non-attachment which i am manually developing towards others. Not to say being incompassionate and not to help others, but trying manually to become non-attached to everything by manually reminding me that there is no I, so nothing related to me, so let it be as it is - so not able to figure out whether this is indifference towards everything or non-attachment towards everything, which i am manually trying to cultivate in myself.
It is not an easy task to try and solve the world's problem and meditate at the same time. Are these the kinds of thoughts that bother you during meditation?
When you don't expect to get anything out of meditation, that is when you will get something from it, even the answer you are looking for. You just have to not think about those things during meditation for it to work.
It will come naturally. We can't force it. Meditation is and always will be a powerful tool. Our wandering mind is harder at work than we are, so we should try and put a leash on it when we can. Imagine all the trouble we would get into if we did nothing. Our mind controls our being, so something has to control our mind. Why not start with our heart?
(...) trying to become non-attached to everything - so don't know whether this is indifference or non-attachment which i am manually developing towards others.
I think you are caught in a typical misunderstanding: the goal is not to be indifferent to things and/or people, but to not feel attached to your idea of what they represent. IOW, don't get attached to possessions and pet ideas that serve to boost your ego.
by manually reminding me that there is no I, so nothing related to me.
Again, this sounds weird. Denying your personality is not the goal of Buddhist teaching. Reminding yourself of your ever changing qualities and outlooks is what you are after. E.g. you are Not defined in total as the "person struggling with meditation" - that is just a phase, and only partially what defines you Currently. Soon enough you will have reviewed and adapted and changed your qualities. And your sense of who you are changes along with that. Some people forget to update.
I think all in all you are trying much too hard, and the harder you chase your meditation goal, the more distant it becomes. This is not school and it is not a contest.
Hi All, well all of your views makes sense. the reason i was trying to manually have an image of no I so nothing is related to me - because i am a very egoistic person who wants that everything should be done as per me, sometimes acting with stubbornness too and usually this generates anger in me and i start behaving badly to others and creating bad karma for me myself.
moreover, this mental conception which i am trying to manually make in my mind so that i can remind myself that i am not this physical material body only - so to avoid the feeling of lust generated when seeing beautiful ladies. somehow, when it is required , sadly at that time only i just forget about the 5 aggregates and these feelings of lust and anger start arousing in me - for example - when i see beautiful ladies at that moment this 5 aggregates just goes out of my mind somehow and instead lust starts sitting at top of my head.
So i was thinking to manually remind me of this no I so nothing related to me thing in my mind. Since now you all have some idea about how bad person i am, now do you all think this mental conception shall help me in any way to somehow let me try to behave as per the noble 8 fold path and also help indirectly in my meditation. Please suggest.
- when i see beautiful ladies at that moment this 5 aggregates just goes out of my mind somehow and instead lust starts sitting at top of my head.
Again I'd recommend one step at a time, and keeping it simple. With this example you can just be mindful of the lust. With greater mindfulness you will begin to understand what it really is, and how it arises and ceases.
if its an object then why call it you? realizing this you abide in equanimity. all these things arise, yet they are noticable. on that premise alone all things are not mine, me, or i.
everything is also in the nature of being impermanent. anger does not stay forever, neither does lust.
nor does lust ever deliever some kind of abiding contentment or peace. knowing that one doesn't reject or embrace. just rest in equanimity.
and another way to approach it is to actively seek these arising. Where are they abiding? They appear so vividly, but where are they? HERE! where is here? Asking yourself the right questions can help you a lot. Not to find an answer, but to investigate and open up to your experience.
In my practice, I reject nothing. If lust arises I see how it arises dependent on eye contact made with a beautiful women. But its not always lust. Sometimes it is admiring beauty. Or just equanimity. So the same contact might not bring about the same results.
With mindfulness one can actively engage and respond to sense contact. oh lust, hello. Will this bring me happiness? Is this permanent? Is this mine, me, i? Is this graspable? Where is this? How does this arise? What effect is it happening to my body? What underlying assumption am I asserting based on karma? Why do I see this as attractive? Is it inherently attractive or is it my perception? Can I have different perceptions?
The list goes on. Be open and inquire. See reality.
This is definitely not easy. You just have to grab hold of reality at this moment. If you are attracted, then admit you are attracted. Then ask yourself, "what do I plan to do with this?". "Am I willing to risk creating bad karma because of it?" "Am I willing to hurt people over this?" Think of how impermanence will affect this person you are attracted to. They will grow old, their skin will wrinkle, their hair will turn white or gray, and they will eventually become unattractive.
IMO the appreciation of Beauty is not a problem. I'm not sure whether LUST inherently includes the need to conquer and possess, but if that is the case, this is where you draw the line. You have no right to possession unless, in this market society, you can buy it. So, women whom you just happen to come across whose looks you appreciate are off limits same as a tree or a flower or a car or a painting that you have no right to.
Admire all you can, and appreciate beauty without getting involved. Detach from your urge to possess (and from using only for you own individual pleasure).
In my practice, I reject nothing. ...... Be open and inquire. See reality.
I think that's a good approach. To see things as they really are requires an openess of mind, an acceptance of "now", a willingness to put aside beliefs and assumptions.
@taiyaki, @spiny, @driedleaf, @possibilities : Helpful suggestions guys. Thanks all. Will try to work on your suggestions and see if it is indirectly helping me in my meditation.
Will let you all know as my meditation proceeds and as usual will ask questions for help too for my meditation.
i think what really helps is to acknowledge the content of whatever arises and then move on from there.
we like to focus too much on the details and the content but i think its important to zoom out in a sense.
thoughts of lust, fear, jealousy, happiness, etc. they are just thoughts. same with feelings. same with sensations.
then from there focusing on investigation. for instance you can dedicate one session of sitting to impermanence. or the ungraspabilty of phenomena. or the spaciousness of all things. etc.
because then we start to see that all things that arise have the same pattern.
once we start to see the patterns we grow confident and content in such truths, which if we are honest are completely what the dharma is pointing to.
reconditioning yourself to start to see things as they are, rather than what you are forced to see by karma. this takes a willingness to be open and curious.
somedays its like a witch hunt.
somedays its just simple curiosity.
other days its just marveling at the wonder of everything that arises. yes even the suffering. how crazy?
see if we start to not focus on the details as much by acknowledging and accepting, then we can start to penetrate into a deeper reality of all phenomena.
this is the function of building concentration, relaxation and morality. the goal is wisdom and clear seeing of what is. everything is a means to see that everything is in it's nature liberation. but everything in it's nature is suffering as well.
i hope you sincerely investigate everything. the truth is nakedly showing its tits. pay attention.
1. these days when i doing meditation, my mind keeps on chattering. what happens is this - a thought arises, i tell my mind to let it go, then another thought arises in my mind - saying let it go is also a thought - so i m trying to stop a thought with another thought - then i say to my mind to focus on my breath - then again a thought comes that i m saying to my mind to focus on my breath - so i m again raising a thought in my mind to focus on breath. So what i observe is all the time of meditation, my mind keeps on chattering. So how to make my mind silent?
Treat your mind like a little baby. You don't walk up to a crying baby and yel at it to stop. You can, but it will probably start to cry even louder. But if instead you pick it up and give it all your loving attention, soon it will cry less and less and eventually become silent.
You can do the same to your mind. Gently give it the opportunity to be silent, for example by wishing yourself calm. "May I be calm, may I be silent. May I be peaceful and at ease.". This is a metta practice, but it can also trigger the mind into silence.
And even if it doesn't, just keep smiling. Keep with the present moment. The number 1 reason for the mind to talk is not being in the present moment. It likes to think about the past and future, but knows little to say about the now.
i am trying to be aware of the present moment during meditation, in addition to be aware of natural breath. But i am finding it too difficult to be aware of the present moment, moreover during this time if i try to observe my breath, i think the breathing which is occurring is not natural but cautious breathing done by me, even though i do not want to breath cautiously. Moreover, when i try to not do anything to avoid cautious breathing and just be aware of present moment, then the starting period (since i am not trying to create a breath) is when i am trying to observe it - then somehow it is either dragging me into a concern in my mind - that what i am observing currently? - leading to some type of thought in my mind - or in other times, a thought about some past action comes and then i drift into the past memories, or future thoughts to do some future actions.
Is being aware of present moment and natural breath so difficult, or am i doing something wrong here? Please suggest.
I can't get enough of this site, mostly because of all the reasurrance and answers to questions I have had. I really did feel inadequate when it came to meditation....I would give it a go, only to sit there..."What is that noise? Is that the cat coughing up a hairball? OH MY GOD IS HE DOING IT ON THE CARPET?!". I could never do it with a silent mind and so I felt a bit like a failure and so have not really tried to master yet. Thanks--this forum, and all of you, have really relieved me of my feeling of inadequacy. Oh, and because I know you are all sitting in suspense....no, he did not cough it up on my good carpet. You can all sleep well now knowing that.
But i am finding it too difficult to be aware of the present moment,
Don't try. Let it come. Make friends with your mind, don't push it around. Smile to this thought you wrote down above, if it arises. Or say to yourself something like: "stupid silly mind of mine, it's ok, I'm not enlightened, so this just happens. It's fine." Trying to be in the present moment is fighting. You imagine the present moment to be just ahead, if you could just change this and that. Do you see that like this you will never be in the present moment? You should train to be kind to whatever arises in your mind and you will automatically be in the present moment.
if i try to observe my breath, i think the breathing which is occurring is not natural but cautious breathing done by me, even though i do not want to breath cautiously.
This is ok. When you start watching the breath, often it starts of as a controlled breathing. This is natural. Just be with it, accept it, and it can go away. The mind habitually grabs onto things and tries to control them, that's what it has always been doing. But after a while it may loosen up; it sees there is no need to control the breath. This may last quite a while, so just relax about it
Is being aware of present moment and natural breath so difficult, or am i doing something wrong here? Please suggest.
It's not easy, but remember that meditation is not about doing things. So in that sense, everything you do is wrong. Doing can be done outside of meditation.
@misecmisc1 I agree with with @Sabre wrote. Remember to label them "thinking" or "thoughts" and return your attention to the object of your meditation - breath, koan, etc.
How long are you sitting for? I found when I started that I had a lot of monkey mind in the beginning and I couldn't get even a few moments where thoughts weren't intruding. This happens for the first 10-15 minutes for me, and after that I have a much better grip on my focus. I'd try increasing your sitting time or experimenting with different times of day, e.g. morning works best for some as the stress of the day hasn't settled in yet.
With that said, keep at it. As Pema Chodron says, we would be very unwise to label one sitting "good" and another "bad." Each is improving our practice, and that's how we should be looking at it, not as a failure or success.
@weighted yes, you are so right about keeping at it. I remember how unstable I was, with no flexibility, when I first began yoga, but with practice I became more advanced. Yes, I could see that each meditation session I have, it would be an improvement over the last. Thanks.
Hi All, but there is no clear discernment of arising and falling away of natural breath, while observing the present moment. even the ending of one breath and the starting of another breath has no clear distinction. it is all too vague and hazy, with no clear distinguishing of a complete breath with its arising and its cessation.
how to develop this discernment in natural breath awareness? moreover, when i just sit and try to be aware of what is coming without doing anything and try to be aware of natural breathing, it seems during this - either a thought somehow crops up and my mind gets entangled in it or sometimes a concern arises that if i am being properly aware of my natural breath and my mind gets entangled in this thought.
From @sabre's reply, i have got some idea what i am doing wrong. But how to develop some sort of concentration in my meditation , or at least how to develop this clear awareness of my natural breath arising and falling away. Please suggest. Thanks in advance.
Comments
after about 5 minutes theses kind of things would start to happen
"a slight greying shading starts (means the intensity of the outer light gets reduced)"
the first time it happen the peripheral vision just went dark really quickly, so much so that i started to look around because i thought someone had closed the lights in the building
i recommend everyone to try this (kasina meditation) as, at least for me, interesting things can happen really quickly, even the first time you try; which can be a very welcome thing since progress with breath meditation can sometimes be harder to notice and come more gradually...
It's also a great way to realize what kind of attention one should put on the breath when doing breath meditation.
But what i get from your explanation about it relating to staring an object, what it seems common to my experience is that when i am doing some work or walking or sitting, i try to still my face and then try to feel my natural breath - sometimes just trying to see my nose, or some object in front of my eyes (though i do not try to stare at it and even not try to look at it properly, just my eyes are open and some object is in front of me) - then when i try to be aware of my natural breathing, then after few seconds, these things happen of outer light intensity getting slightly reduced and some muscles of my face start moving a little like a tingling occurring and then when i try to feel how i am feeling at that moment, i feel like a pleasant feeling coming to me and simultaneously my facial expression( i feel ) turns like when i am smiling a little bit.
Spiny
Spiny
Hi All,
these days what i am observing in my meditation is that - after few moments my straight back slumps a little, my head slightly drops, sometimes saliva is coming in my mouth and gulping it destroys the whole situation and then getting back my body in straight posture further destroys everything.
There is no concentration in my meditation. Rather it seems to me sometimes that am I fooling myself sitting in full-lotus position with eyes closed and trying to observe my natural breath, thinking that i am meditating - when in reality since there is no concentration, it is just like sitting and seeing thoughts arising in my mind of all the situations which i am facing in my current life and sometimes getting entangled in my thoughts too. This was the same situation earlier too, so am i moving in round circles, without getting anywhere. It seems quite sad to me.
As throughout this post, any suggestions please. Thanks in advance.
You just need to stop indulging your thoughts. They really are not all that important. The idea is that you exert the energy to keep your mind on one thing, bringing your attention back again and again and again.
Labeling is just a technique to acknowledge you wandered off, woke up, and let go. It is not an analysis. When we label something we are putting it in a box and moving on. In this case returning attention back to your breath. One word like "thinking" is fine until you gain some more stability.
You might also try counting each in and out breath 1/1 through 9/9 and start over at 1.
You might also try a visualisation. Imagine you are in the middle of the ocean. Floating on surface. Each in breath is a wave raising you up and each out breath is a wave going down.
These are all just techniques to help you stay present with your breath. However, the action of returning your attention to the breath is also very beneficial so don't get so discouraged.
Best Wishes
Spiny
Yes, that's a good way of putting it.
Spiny
On the cushion you just welcome that thought. It is true that thinking can lead to bad action. But on the cushion you actually strengthen the understanding that you need not act on random thoughts which occur to you. What you resist persists sometimes.
It's an investment. Short term discipline, versus long term meditative stability. When buddha sat under the bodhi tree mara assaulted him with lustful and frightening visions. Buddha turned all of them into flowers with his mind.
1. Find a good sitting position. Just like when we walk into a movie theater, we always look for a good seat so that we can enjoy the hour-long movie.
2. Find a good breathing rhythm, not too long and relaxed that you would fall asleep, and not to short that it would cause your mind to jump around make you lose focus.
3. Find a focal point or theme, something that you can mentally fall back on and not cause you irritation to think about. Anything is fine as long as its 1 thing. Breath, emptiness, impermanence etc.
One of them being that it keeps you doing what you are supposed to do and help prevent getting lost in thoughts.
Your mind is very active, same as every beginners, so this method of labeling take advantage of this active mind and put it to good use.
but it's not necessary, and mainly use for vipassana which i don't think you are doing right now am i right?
for concentration meditation (samadhi) I really recommend you to try this kasina meditation i was telling you about earlier. right now you are creating aversions toward all kind of little things but those are not very helpful to you.
there is no "destroy", you just look at the swallowing and return to the breath, peacefully.
the actual setback from whatever distraction is very, very small. It is big to you because of your idea that it "destroy" your concentration. here, just note to yourself "doubt" and go back to the breath.
you have so many doubts but you are doing very well.
it seem that you have a preconceived idea of how your meditation should be like and reality doesn't match that preconceived idea so you are getting frustrated every times something perfectly normal happen.
It is perfectly normal to feel this way as we all had a wrong idea of what should happen in meditation, but just understand that in reality, just noticing the distractions and the thoughts, and returning to the breath peacefully is all you have to do, and progress will keep on coming to you. its that easy.
with time you will understand how well you were doing.
for now, i think you will be doing yourself a favor by just noticing the distractions and returning to the breath, peacefully.
1. I am sitting in full-lotus position.
2. just trying to observe my natural breath.
3. no theme.
Hi All,
it seems like the problem is since i am studying what happens in meditation, all these things which may come quite late in meditation or even not come in my case ( because of no concentration in my meditation) - in my meditation, i am trying to imagine those things of later stages - so the mind is trying to feel if it is feeling something in observing the natural breath, try to forcefully be in that feeling for sometime as in case of natural breath the gap between two breaths can be quite long, so during this period my mind tries to make a lot of tries to feel something and in a way my mind keeps on speaking and i keep on listening, later realizing that much time has gone and i observed nothing and in the meanwhile when my eyes were closed, my mind was only chattering to me and there was no concentration in my meditation.
Seems like the more i am studying what the Buddha taught in the mindfulness suttas, the more i am trying to imagine those things in my meditation, even though they will be of much later stages coming after many years or even not coming to me at all seeing the way my meditation is going.
Moreover, i am trying to change my outlook in the external world - by not trying to get entangled in anything and trying to become non-attached to everything - so don't know whether this is indifference or non-attachment which i am manually developing towards others. Not to say being incompassionate and not to help others, but trying manually to become non-attached to everything by manually reminding me that there is no I, so nothing related to me, so let it be as it is - so not able to figure out whether this is indifference towards everything or non-attachment towards everything, which i am manually trying to cultivate in myself.
Any views, please.
I'd recommend keeping it simple. Mindfulness basically just means paying attention, so mindfulness of breathing means paying attention to the breath. Noticing that you're thinking a lot is actually a sign of progress, so keep at it.
Spiny
in the above post i have mentioned -
Moreover, i am trying to change my outlook in the external world - by not trying to get entangled in anything and trying to become non-attached to everything - so don't know whether this is indifference or non-attachment which i am manually developing towards others. Not to say being incompassionate and not to help others, but trying manually to become non-attached to everything by manually reminding me that there is no I, so nothing related to me, so let it be as it is - so not able to figure out whether this is indifference towards everything or non-attachment towards everything, which i am manually trying to cultivate in myself.
Any views regarding this also, please and whether it shall help indirectly in meditation. Please suggest.
Spiny
through contentment one fearlessly opens up and embraces whatever comes nakedly as it is. neither attaching nor pushing away. just fully unreservedly opening up to what is.
thus be content in all things other than your spiritual progress.
indifference is a subtle form of aversion.
total unconditioned acceptance from the heart and mind is manifest wisdom.
When you don't expect to get anything out of meditation, that is when you will get something from it, even the answer you are looking for. You just have to not think about those things during meditation for it to work.
It will come naturally. We can't force it. Meditation is and always will be a powerful tool. Our wandering mind is harder at work than we are, so we should try and put a leash on it when we can. Imagine all the trouble we would get into if we did nothing. Our mind controls our being, so something has to control our mind. Why not start with our heart?
IOW, don't get attached to possessions and pet ideas that serve to boost your ego. Again, this sounds weird. Denying your personality is not the goal of Buddhist teaching. Reminding yourself of your ever changing qualities and outlooks is what you are after. E.g. you are Not defined in total as the "person struggling with meditation" - that is just a phase, and only partially what defines you Currently. Soon enough you will have reviewed and adapted and changed your qualities. And your sense of who you are changes along with that. Some people forget to update.
I think all in all you are trying much too hard, and the harder you chase your meditation goal, the more distant it becomes. This is not school and it is not a contest.
There is no fast track to equanimity. RELAX.
Spiny
Hi All,
well all of your views makes sense. the reason i was trying to manually have an image of no I so nothing is related to me - because i am a very egoistic person who wants that everything should be done as per me, sometimes acting with stubbornness too and usually this generates anger in me and i start behaving badly to others and creating bad karma for me myself.
moreover, this mental conception which i am trying to manually make in my mind so that i can remind myself that i am not this physical material body only - so to avoid the feeling of lust generated when seeing beautiful ladies. somehow, when it is required , sadly at that time only i just forget about the 5 aggregates and these feelings of lust and anger start arousing in me - for example - when i see beautiful ladies at that moment this 5 aggregates just goes out of my mind somehow and instead lust starts sitting at top of my head.
So i was thinking to manually remind me of this no I so nothing related to me thing in my mind. Since now you all have some idea about how bad person i am, now do you all think this mental conception shall help me in any way to somehow let me try to behave as per the noble 8 fold path and also help indirectly in my meditation. Please suggest.
Spiny
if its an object then why call it you? realizing this you abide in equanimity.
all these things arise, yet they are noticable. on that premise alone all things are not mine, me, or i.
everything is also in the nature of being impermanent. anger does not stay forever, neither does lust.
nor does lust ever deliever some kind of abiding contentment or peace. knowing that one doesn't reject or embrace. just rest in equanimity.
and another way to approach it is to actively seek these arising. Where are they abiding? They appear so vividly, but where are they? HERE! where is here? Asking yourself the right questions can help you a lot. Not to find an answer, but to investigate and open up to your experience.
In my practice, I reject nothing. If lust arises I see how it arises dependent on eye contact made with a beautiful women. But its not always lust. Sometimes it is admiring beauty. Or just equanimity. So the same contact might not bring about the same results.
With mindfulness one can actively engage and respond to sense contact. oh lust, hello. Will this bring me happiness? Is this permanent? Is this mine, me, i? Is this graspable? Where is this? How does this arise? What effect is it happening to my body? What underlying assumption am I asserting based on karma? Why do I see this as attractive? Is it inherently attractive or is it my perception? Can I have different perceptions?
The list goes on. Be open and inquire. See reality.
Admire all you can, and appreciate beauty without getting involved. Detach from your urge to possess (and from using only for you own individual pleasure).
Spiny
Will let you all know as my meditation proceeds and as usual will ask questions for help too for my meditation.
we like to focus too much on the details and the content but i think its important to zoom out in a sense.
thoughts of lust, fear, jealousy, happiness, etc. they are just thoughts. same with feelings. same with sensations.
then from there focusing on investigation. for instance you can dedicate one session of sitting to impermanence. or the ungraspabilty of phenomena. or the spaciousness of all things. etc.
because then we start to see that all things that arise have the same pattern.
once we start to see the patterns we grow confident and content in such truths, which if we are honest are completely what the dharma is pointing to.
reconditioning yourself to start to see things as they are, rather than what you are forced to see by karma. this takes a willingness to be open and curious.
somedays its like a witch hunt.
somedays its just simple curiosity.
other days its just marveling at the wonder of everything that arises. yes even the suffering. how crazy?
see if we start to not focus on the details as much by acknowledging and accepting, then we can start to penetrate into a deeper reality of all phenomena.
this is the function of building concentration, relaxation and morality. the goal is wisdom and clear seeing of what is. everything is a means to see that everything is in it's nature liberation. but everything in it's nature is suffering as well.
i hope you sincerely investigate everything. the truth is nakedly showing its tits. pay attention.
Spiny
I wish you all a great day and even if its not, there is life.
No matter what heavens or hells we travel through. One can always practice the dharma.
justing being is having absolute confidence in the conclusion of the hunt.
but i forget at times. hehe.
You can do the same to your mind. Gently give it the opportunity to be silent, for example by wishing yourself calm. "May I be calm, may I be silent. May I be peaceful and at ease.". This is a metta practice, but it can also trigger the mind into silence.
And even if it doesn't, just keep smiling. Keep with the present moment. The number 1 reason for the mind to talk is not being in the present moment. It likes to think about the past and future, but knows little to say about the now.
With metta,
Sabre
i am trying to be aware of the present moment during meditation, in addition to be aware of natural breath. But i am finding it too difficult to be aware of the present moment, moreover during this time if i try to observe my breath, i think the breathing which is occurring is not natural but cautious breathing done by me, even though i do not want to breath cautiously. Moreover, when i try to not do anything to avoid cautious breathing and just be aware of present moment, then the starting period (since i am not trying to create a breath) is when i am trying to observe it - then somehow it is either dragging me into a concern in my mind - that what i am observing currently? - leading to some type of thought in my mind - or in other times, a thought about some past action comes and then i drift into the past memories, or future thoughts to do some future actions.
Is being aware of present moment and natural breath so difficult, or am i doing something wrong here? Please suggest.
I really did feel inadequate when it came to meditation....I would give it a go, only to sit there..."What is that noise? Is that the cat coughing up a hairball? OH MY GOD IS HE DOING IT ON THE CARPET?!".
I could never do it with a silent mind and so I felt a bit like a failure and so have not really tried to master yet.
Thanks--this forum, and all of you, have really relieved me of my feeling of inadequacy.
Oh, and because I know you are all sitting in suspense....no, he did not cough it up on my good carpet. You can all sleep well now knowing that.
With metta,
Sabre
How long are you sitting for? I found when I started that I had a lot of monkey mind in the beginning and I couldn't get even a few moments where thoughts weren't intruding. This happens for the first 10-15 minutes for me, and after that I have a much better grip on my focus. I'd try increasing your sitting time or experimenting with different times of day, e.g. morning works best for some as the stress of the day hasn't settled in yet.
With that said, keep at it. As Pema Chodron says, we would be very unwise to label one sitting "good" and another "bad." Each is improving our practice, and that's how we should be looking at it, not as a failure or success.
Yes, I could see that each meditation session I have, it would be an improvement over the last.
Thanks.
Hi All,
but there is no clear discernment of arising and falling away of natural breath, while observing the present moment. even the ending of one breath and the starting of another breath has no clear distinction. it is all too vague and hazy, with no clear distinguishing of a complete breath with its arising and its cessation.
how to develop this discernment in natural breath awareness? moreover, when i just sit and try to be aware of what is coming without doing anything and try to be aware of natural breathing, it seems during this - either a thought somehow crops up and my mind gets entangled in it or sometimes a concern arises that if i am being properly aware of my natural breath and my mind gets entangled in this thought.
From @sabre's reply, i have got some idea what i am doing wrong. But how to develop some sort of concentration in my meditation , or at least how to develop this clear awareness of my natural breath arising and falling away. Please suggest. Thanks in advance.