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Activity is panoramic. You can do two things at a time. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to drive a car. The reason this is possible is mindfulness, the background can jump to the foreground, as you notice something in driving.
Mindfulness isn't bare absorption into the body (my teacher says). It is the ability of the mind to have the background jump to the foreground. In meditation the background 'I am meditating'. Jumps to the foreground and replaces, 'what do I do about x?'
Another example of mindfulness bringing the background to the foreground. You are on your electronic gaming device on the bus and you bring to the foreground manners about giving up your seat to an elderly person. If you weren't mindful (enough) you would ignore that which is a different discussion from being aware of the manners but then just not doing anything about it.
@driedleaf, the problem is that the mind focuses and diffuses. You can only see the real nature of the mind by focusing and diffusing.
But your way works anyhow because it is impossible to focus on a single object forever. If you could you would never get up from the meditation and you could not possibly notice the breath again when you drift off. The mindfulness of bringing the seeds of 'breat' back into consiousness IS mindfulness. That is why we need to be gentle when we drift off. Otherwise we lose the truth of mindfulness which is returning and diffusing.
How we focus is important though. I think its very confusing to most people on how to focus on single object. It does not have to mean keeping a single thought, that would be too difficult to do, but if that is actually easy for someone then nevermind what I have to say. I believe thoughts and focus are two different things right? For example: You have a lit candle in front of you that you don't want to go out. Even though your focus is keeping the candle lit, you can still use it to see things around you. The focus would be to keep the candle lit. The thoughts are the things we see around us with the light of the candle. We can do both and still keep the candle lit. We don't have to constantly keep our eyes on the flame to keep it lit.
It depends how you are using words. Focus can mean being attentive. That's like with the candle. I'm more talking about sitting meditation in my tradition. You only take the breath 25% only on the outbreath. The inbreath you leave natural, with no method. The other 75% of the outbreath are spaciousness and mental objects/guests.
As you can see, I can only speak for my tradition. I do candle meditation sometimes though too. I have been having psychotic episodes having to do with openness meditation and so I am working on absorptions.
A candle is different from the breath because the candle only flicers and is hard to lose track of. The breath is chosen in other meditations, I imagine, because it is hard to lose and connects us to our emotions, downward gaze and inherently breath is vulnerable because we need it for life.
I think the breath is easier to keep focus on than most things. When breathing in keep in mind "I am breathing in", when breathing out keep in mind "I am breathing out". Then the thoughts come. But as long as you are keeping track of the ins and outs of the breath, then to me that means your are focused on the breath.
So can the mind be doing multiple acitivities simultaneously? i think it can, but the question arises what is that thing which distributes the awareness to different activities, like an example of say 40% awareness to seeing, 30% awareness to hearing, 30% awareness to moving in a single moment? - Or - does the mind actually have awareness on a single activity in a single moment, but that may be too momentary for us to notice it? Any ideas, please. Thanks in advance.
Apart from the above question, there is one more strange thing which i am facing now in my meditation. let me explain. i started meditating with natural breath as the meditation object - trying to be aware of natural breath - but encountered two problems there except thoughts - those two problems were cautious breathing and what to do in gaps between breaths.
then after i read about being mindful of present moment and silent awareness of present moment, which then leads to awareness of breath. so then i started trying to be aware of present moment.
now the situation is i am trying to be aware of the physical and mental sensations which arise in present moment in my meditation - thoughts come and mind gets entangled and somehow realizes it is caught in thought, so tries to be aware of what sensations are arising in present moment - again another thought arises and it continues throughout my meditation.
Now the problem is - it seems to me that i have just forgotten about the natural breath, because i think during my whole meditation i am just trying to feel the physical and mental sensations, and somehow during my meditation even though i am breathing, i am just missing to feel the breath, rather just trying to feel the subtle sensations arising in hands, feet, head etc. i hope you all are getting what i am trying to say. i think i know that i am breathing in the meditation, but the attention does not go to it, rather the attention is to see if there is any sensation going on in the whole body.
So what do you all think/guess where i would have gone wrong to miss the natural breath - or - should i stop trying to feel the sensations and rather try to feel the natural breath? Any suggestions, please. Thanks in advance.
Actually, yes we can. I can be knitting and following a tv programme, or baking a cake and listening to a discussion programme on BBCRadio 4 or be doing the ironing and supervise a child...
Of course, but I'm suggesting that when doing this our attention is constantly switching between the various activities. Or to put it another way, we can only pay full attention to one thing at a time.
Activity is panoramic. You can do two things at a time. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to drive a car. The reason this is possible is mindfulness, the background can jump to the foreground, as you notice something in driving.
But if for example you're using a mobile phone while driving it's a distraction, and it means you're not paying full attention to your driving.
Mindfulness isn't bare absorption into the body (my teacher says). It is the ability of the mind to have the background jump to the foreground. In meditation the background 'I am meditating'. Jumps to the foreground and replaces, 'what do I do about x?'
I'd say that mindfulness simply means paying attention to particular objects or processes.
Or - does the mind actually have awareness on a single activity in a single moment, but that may be too momentary for us to notice it? Any ideas, please. Thanks in advance.
That's how I see it - but attention "flickers" so quickly we're not aware of it.
So can the mind be doing multiple acitivities simultaneously? i think it can, but the question arises what is that thing which distributes the awareness to different activities, like an example of say 40% awareness to seeing, 30% awareness to hearing, 30% awareness to moving in a single moment? - Or - does the mind actually have awareness on a single activity in a single moment, but that may be too momentary for us to notice it? Any ideas, please. Thanks in advance.
That is an awesome question. What does allocate the awareness? I know that I don't deliberately choose whatever side tracks me from the breath.
When it is voluntary we just fudge it like 'oh I am 50% on the breath 50% on letting go'.
But I have no idea what makes the mind drift off and what brings it back.
@porpoise, there are different understandings of mindfulness. Your bare awareness doesn't account for how the mind rights itself when it drifts off in meditation. I am saying that mindfulness is the power to bring the seeds to the consciousness. This ties in neatly with what @driedleaf asked above. There is a power in the mindfulness, perhaps, that creates the condition for where awareness is allocated.
Anyhow nice question. That is a question you can base at least a years dharma practice on!
So can the mind be doing multiple acitivities simultaneously? i think it can, but the question arises what is that thing which distributes the awareness to different activities, like an example of say 40% awareness to seeing, 30% awareness to hearing, 30% awareness to moving in a single moment? - Or - does the mind actually have awareness on a single activity in a single moment, but that may be too momentary for us to notice it? Any ideas, please. Thanks in advance.
I believe the mind can do more than one thing at a time, and much much more. I would say that the thing that distributes awareness to different activities is still the same mind.
So what do you all think/guess where i would have gone wrong to miss the natural breath - or - should i stop trying to feel the sensations and rather try to feel the natural breath? Any suggestions, please. Thanks in advance.
I think the mind can be aware of the natural breath and feel sensations at the same time. As far as what you should do between breaths, I would try to build on awareness, as in the frames of reference (mindfulness of the body, feelings, consciousness, and mental qualities).
"Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination.
"There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
Thus he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects internally, or he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects externally, or he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination-factors in mental objects, or he lives contemplating dissolution-factors in mental objects, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution-factors in mental objects.[26] Or his mindfulness is established with the thought, "Mental objects exist," to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness, and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world. Thus, monks, a monk lives contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the seven factors of enlightenment.
"And how are the seven factors for awakening developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination? There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening... persistence as a factor for awakening... rapture as a factor for awakening... serenity as a factor for awakening... concentration as a factor for awakening... equanimity as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment.
"This is how the seven factors for awakening are developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination."
That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words.
What's really hard for us humans is to do only one thing at a time.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
What's really hard for us humans is to do only one thing at a time.
I'm not sure it matters how many things we consciously do at the same time as long as we can be with what we are doing and not with what we wish we were doing, or what we may do tomorrow or what happened yesterday.
@porpoise, there are different understandings of mindfulness. Your bare awareness doesn't account for how the mind rights itself when it drifts off in meditation.
Well in meditation we consciously choose what we're paying attention to. Paying attention to a single object has the affect of calming and concentrating the mind.
You can do two things at a time. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to drive a car. The reason this is possible is mindfulness, the background can jump to the foreground, as you notice something in driving.
Actually I think this is a good way to look at it, background and foreground.
So what do you all think/guess where i would have gone wrong to miss the natural breath - or - should i stop trying to feel the sensations and rather try to feel the natural breath? Any suggestions, please. Thanks in advance.
I think the mind can be aware of the natural breath and feel sensations at the same time. As far as what you should do between breaths, I would try to build on awareness, as in the frames of reference (mindfulness of the body, feelings, consciousness, and mental qualities).
@driedleaf/all: I think it is a kind of catch 22 situation or a deadlock situation for me or may be i am missing something here.
let me explain. Of the above 4, there is only mindfulness of the body which i think i can try to do because in the gap, there is no feeling as it is blank, no mental quality i can see as it is blank and consciousness i think is too subtle for me to observe in that blank.
Now mindfulness of the body remains which i think i can try to do - but it leads me back to my question - should i feel the physical sensations of the body or should i try to just wait for the next breath to come, because though it is weird to say but somehow when i was feeling the sensations of the body, i think i missed to give attention to the breath. So should i stop trying to feel the sensations and rather try to feel the natural breath? Please suggest. Thanks in advance.
I agree, Jeffery. When I meditate, I might have a thought and I realize that and choose not to follow that thought. Once in a while I do follow it and as soon as I realize it, I stop following and return to my breathing. It takes me a while to get into the ability to not follow my thoughts, similar to running. When I run, it takes me a little while to get in a breathing rhythm. Same with meditation. For me, the short meditations do not work so well. They are better than not doing it at all, but I find my experience is much better and I follow my thoughts much less if I sit for at least 20 minutes as opposed to 5. If I can sit for closer to 30 minutes, the effects of the meditation are much easier to maintain in my daily life.
One of the masters who taught my teacher, told him, "keep your body on the cushion, your mind in your body and peace in your mind." Reeling in my mind to my body is the hard part, but I can tell very much when it's there. Holding onto it is another story!
I don't think you are in a deadlock situation. Keep on focusing and noticing the in/out breath, this is most important. Do not let go of this focus, because this is the key. Of course if you do let go of it you can still come back to it, but keep in mind that this is like starting over again. The longer we can hold on to the focus, the more easier everything will be, and the more advanced we will progress. It will all come together once we can hold on to that focus for a long time.
let me explain. Of the above 4, there is only mindfulness of the body which i think i can try to do because in the gap, there is no feeling as it is blank, no mental quality i can see as it is blank and consciousness i think is too subtle for me to observe in that blank.
Now mindfulness of the body remains which i think i can try to do - but it leads me back to my question - should i feel the physical sensations of the body or should i try to just wait for the next breath to come, because though it is weird to say but somehow when i was feeling the sensations of the body, i think i missed to give attention to the breath. So should i stop trying to feel the sensations and rather try to feel the natural breath? Please suggest. Thanks in advance.
When we keep focusing on the breath for a long time, the breath becomes more refined. The refined breath will permeate through our body, and we can feel that permeation. As it permeates through our body, we can feel it affecting our body. The breath starts by entering our nostrils and into our lungs, our lungs expand and contract, oxygen enters our bloodstream, our heart pumps blood through our veins, and our veins spreads blood and oxygen throughout our body. Some of the air that we inhaled has passed through our body. We breathe the air in again and the cycle is repeated. When we can see the whole breathing process, this is mindfulness of the body, and we should be able to see the whole process while keeping the focus on the breath.
Sometimes a thought occurs, but at this stage we just think "thoughts". Or we start to feel hungry, then we just think "hunger". A painful sensation might arise in a certain part of the body, then we just think "pain". An urge or an unskilful desire might occur in our mind, then we notice that and not act on them. When we notice hunger in and of itself, then that is mindfulness of the body. When we notice a painful sensation in and of itself, then that is mindfulness of feelings. When we notice thoughts in and of themselves then that is mindfulness of the mind. (there is no need to go subtle, just notice the thoughts without losing focus) When we notice that an unskilful desire (greed/lust) is present in our mind, in and of itself, and not act on them, then that is mindfulness of mental qualities.
When we notice hunger in and of itself, then that is mindfulness of the body. When we notice a painful sensation in and of itself, then that is mindfulness of feelings. When we notice thoughts in and of themselves then that is mindfulness of the mind. (there is no need to go subtle, just notice the thoughts without losing focus) When we notice that an unskilful desire (greed/lust) is present in our mind, in and of itself, and not act on them, then that is mindfulness of mental qualities.
A good summary but this sounds like it's based on the 4 foundations of mindfulness, in which case I think you've muddled up the last 2. The 3rd foundation is mindfulness of mind-state ( what you've called "mental qualities" ) and the 4th foundation is mindfulness of mental objects ( thoughts etc ). And strictly speaking hunger is an unpleasant feeling.
It's interesting just how many comments make up this thread compared to any others?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Yeah, well the OP keeps coming back to it and re-bumping it.
Part of the problem - which he acknowledges, to his incredible credit, bless him - is that he over-thinks things and 'tries' too hard. Our basic recommendation to him is usually, to 'relax' - but he does provoke some interesting discussion, which is often of great help to others, and can be a timely reminder...
should i feel the physical sensations of the body or should i try to just wait for the next breath to come, because though it is weird to say but somehow when i was feeling the sensations of the body, i think i missed to give attention to the breath. So should i stop trying to feel the sensations and rather try to feel the natural breath?
There are different approaches, but broadly speaking the idea is to pay attention to one thing at a time because this enables concentration to develop.
should i feel the physical sensations of the body or should i try to just wait for the next breath to come, because though it is weird to say but somehow when i was feeling the sensations of the body, i think i missed to give attention to the breath. So should i stop trying to feel the sensations and rather try to feel the natural breath?
There are different approaches, but broadly speaking the idea is to pay attention to one thing at a time because this enables concentration to develop.
@porpoise: So does that mean i should focus on my nose tip, or, should i try to focus taking my complete body as a whole and trying to observe the physical sensations arising throughout the body, and so trying to be in present moment.
Or, do you think the focus should be retained on breathing - but in my case, i am seeing the gaps between breaths are long and so the focus on nose tip gets lost in the gap? May be my focus is too disturbed to keep attention on any particular thing. But still will like to hear some suggestions on how to increase focus for a longer duration on either breath or body during my meditation. Thanks in advance.
Bare attention is very important when it comes to meditation. In thinking just thoughts, no thinker. The thought is all there is. There is no awareness watching the thought. That sensation of an awareness watching a thought creates the illusion that one can control thoughts and that one is apart from thoughts. But that awareness is merely a non conceptual grasping between the space of thoughts.
What you must realize is that in the process of thinking there is only the arising thought. There is no extra awareness. The thought itself is the awareness. And each instant of thought is disjointed.
That means one thought. another thought. another thought. There is no true link other than thought itself.
Now if this can be done in bare attention one should examine the corelessness of thought. Thought itself is magical. It appears to no one. It abides no where. It goes no where. It is a luminous display of dependent origination.
Thinking (mind sense making contact with mental object) = thought consciouness.
Because of conditioned arising the thought is completely coreless and devoid of entity. But that doesn't deny its vivid, luminous arising.
@taiyaki: So do you mean to say that there is no awareness, but awareness is also just a thought? But in meditation, it is said that the awareness needs to be developed to watch the activities of the mind and so the awareness of 'that which knows' needs to be developed.
Moreover when there is a thought in meditation, then if it is not awareness, then what is that thing which observes that there is a thought going on in meditation?
So please explain the above things. May be i have not understood your statements clearly - if this is the case, then please clarify your statements about awareness. Thanks in advance.
@porpoise: So does that mean i should focus on my nose tip, or, should i try to focus taking my complete body as a whole and trying to observe the physical sensations arising throughout the body, and so trying to be in present moment.
It really depends what practice you're doing. If you're doing mindfulness of breathing then try to stay with the sensation of breathing, don't get too caught up in where you notice the sensations. Is there any way you can get some face-to-face instruction / advice on meditation - maybe there is there a Buddhist group or centre that you could visit?
Is there any way you can get some face-to-face instruction / advice on meditation - maybe there is there a Buddhist group or centre that you could visit?
@porpoise: the sad part is i do not have time to go to a monastry for face-to-face instructions because i think there is no nearby monastry and due to my daily schedule, of my office work and now my family has also come from my native place, so no time for going to a monastry.
Got a doubt regarding how to do Anapanasati - i have read descriptions by various monks on the way of doing Anapanasati. One description is saying to observe the natural breath and just sit and observe it. Another description says to do breathing in a skillful manner and try to develop the breathing which is skillful and generate calmness in the body - so in a way trying to do cautious breathing.
So now my question is - when doing anapanasati, it is ok to observe the breath going in and going out - but what breath should it be - natural breath or cautious breath? Any suggestions please.
One more problem which i observed with my natural breath is that it is very small sometimes and usually inhalation is what is most prominent, and exhalation is barely noticable - dont know why but somehow it is so - in my most observations, i have noticed that my inhalations are sometimes long and sometimes short, but my exhalations are usually barely noticable - even i have to sometimes cautiously breathe out to make me notice my breathing out in my meditation, though it is weird but this is the case as i am seeing. Anybody else who have observed such a thing in their meditation, please suggest.
Meditation is not one technique that takes care of all problems. It's a set of skills you develop to take care of the mind. Also, every mind is different, so we all need to find our own way. See it in this way and you won't get confused by the apparent differences in teachings. So take responsibility and check it out for yourself. Nobody can look in your mind what technique is best for you.
If you can not find the breath, look better. Your attention is not strong enough to see it. If that doesn't work, focus on the body first to sharpen the attention. Last resort could be to hold the breath for a while. When you start breathing again, you can not miss it.
Got a doubt regarding how to do Anapanasati - i have read descriptions by various monks on the way of doing Anapanasati. One description is saying to observe the natural breath and just sit and observe it.
My advice with anapanasati would be to keep it simple. Just pay attention to the breath, no more, no less.
Hi All, In Anapanasati Sutta, which breathing is said to be observed - natural breathing or doing breathing cautiously to make breathing skillful? Any ideas please.
Hi All, In Anapanasati Sutta, which breathing is said to be observed - natural breathing or doing breathing cautiously to make breathing skillful? Any ideas please.
One more question regarding posture - these days somehow my back has starting to ache a little bit. so my question is - does the posture need to such that we feel that our body has a straight back posture maintaining the natural curve of the spine, or , can we relax the back and sit in a easy manner with the back relaxed instead of straight back? means during the complete sitting duration of meditation, should we have this feeling going throughout that our back is straight and the moment it relaxes, we have to make it straight - but then does the attention needs to be on whats going in the mind or whats going in the body posture? please suggest. thanks in advance.
@taiyaki: So do you mean to say that there is no awareness, but awareness is also just a thought? But in meditation, it is said that the awareness needs to be developed to watch the activities of the mind and so the awareness of 'that which knows' needs to be developed.
Moreover when there is a thought in meditation, then if it is not awareness, then what is that thing which observes that there is a thought going on in meditation?
So please explain the above things. May be i have not understood your statements clearly - if this is the case, then please clarify your statements about awareness. Thanks in advance.
Awareness is not a thought. There is thought and there is awareness. But what is that which becomes aware of the awareness of thoughts? Or should I say which of these is the self? What about that which aware of being aware of awareness and so on?
Which awareness' is the true self then?
Even awareness is not self.
Another analogy. "You" are watching the passing sensations, thoughts and feelings. Then "you" become aware of "the one who knows". Which one is "you"? "You" cannot be both can you?
from last 2 days, i am observing that in my meditation, somehow after sometime, my throat becomes slightly conjested and then if i breathe, a sound starts with my breathing - this occurs only if my head and neck are in a position and if i retain that position and try to feel my breath through my throat area, then my breath is creating this type of sound in my throat.
has anyone felt this type of sound in their throat during breathing - should i focus on breathing through throat in a way creating this sound - or - when this type of sound starts to arise through my throat, should i change my posture to stop this sound from arising? any suggestions please. thanks in advance.
Let the body do its natural bodily activities. Let the sounds do its natural sounds. Just observe what arises, remains and fades just like everything else. The heart of the mind is the observer. To remain focused on a single object is to stay with the heart and mind.
Comments
Mindfulness isn't bare absorption into the body (my teacher says). It is the ability of the mind to have the background jump to the foreground. In meditation the background 'I am meditating'. Jumps to the foreground and replaces, 'what do I do about x?'
But your way works anyhow because it is impossible to focus on a single object forever. If you could you would never get up from the meditation and you could not possibly notice the breath again when you drift off. The mindfulness of bringing the seeds of 'breat' back into consiousness IS mindfulness. That is why we need to be gentle when we drift off. Otherwise we lose the truth of mindfulness which is returning and diffusing.
As you can see, I can only speak for my tradition. I do candle meditation sometimes though too. I have been having psychotic episodes having to do with openness meditation and so I am working on absorptions.
A candle is different from the breath because the candle only flicers and is hard to lose track of. The breath is chosen in other meditations, I imagine, because it is hard to lose and connects us to our emotions, downward gaze and inherently breath is vulnerable because we need it for life.
And yes the thoughts keep coming in. The mantras are not the only part of meditation. There are thouhts too.
So can the mind be doing multiple acitivities simultaneously? i think it can, but the question arises what is that thing which distributes the awareness to different activities, like an example of say 40% awareness to seeing, 30% awareness to hearing, 30% awareness to moving in a single moment? - Or - does the mind actually have awareness on a single activity in a single moment, but that may be too momentary for us to notice it? Any ideas, please. Thanks in advance.
Apart from the above question, there is one more strange thing which i am facing now in my meditation. let me explain. i started meditating with natural breath as the meditation object - trying to be aware of natural breath - but encountered two problems there except thoughts - those two problems were cautious breathing and what to do in gaps between breaths.
then after i read about being mindful of present moment and silent awareness of present moment, which then leads to awareness of breath. so then i started trying to be aware of present moment.
now the situation is i am trying to be aware of the physical and mental sensations which arise in present moment in my meditation - thoughts come and mind gets entangled and somehow realizes it is caught in thought, so tries to be aware of what sensations are arising in present moment - again another thought arises and it continues throughout my meditation.
Now the problem is - it seems to me that i have just forgotten about the natural breath, because i think during my whole meditation i am just trying to feel the physical and mental sensations, and somehow during my meditation even though i am breathing, i am just missing to feel the breath, rather just trying to feel the subtle sensations arising in hands, feet, head etc. i hope you all are getting what i am trying to say. i think i know that i am breathing in the meditation, but the attention does not go to it, rather the attention is to see if there is any sensation going on in the whole body.
So what do you all think/guess where i would have gone wrong to miss the natural breath - or - should i stop trying to feel the sensations and rather try to feel the natural breath? Any suggestions, please. Thanks in advance.
If we're not aware of it then how do you know it's happening?
When it is voluntary we just fudge it like 'oh I am 50% on the breath 50% on letting go'.
But I have no idea what makes the mind drift off and what brings it back.
@porpoise, there are different understandings of mindfulness. Your bare awareness doesn't account for how the mind rights itself when it drifts off in meditation. I am saying that mindfulness is the power to bring the seeds to the consciousness. This ties in neatly with what @driedleaf asked above. There is a power in the mindfulness, perhaps, that creates the condition for where awareness is allocated.
Anyhow nice question. That is a question you can base at least a years dharma practice on!
"Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html
"There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html
Thus he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects internally, or he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects externally, or he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination-factors in mental objects, or he lives contemplating dissolution-factors in mental objects, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution-factors in mental objects.[26] Or his mindfulness is established with the thought, "Mental objects exist," to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness, and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world. Thus, monks, a monk lives contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the seven factors of enlightenment.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanasatta/wheel019.html#found
Clear Knowing & Release
"And how are the seven factors for awakening developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination? There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening... persistence as a factor for awakening... rapture as a factor for awakening... serenity as a factor for awakening... concentration as a factor for awakening... equanimity as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment.
"This is how the seven factors for awakening are developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination."
That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html
let me explain. Of the above 4, there is only mindfulness of the body which i think i can try to do because in the gap, there is no feeling as it is blank, no mental quality i can see as it is blank and consciousness i think is too subtle for me to observe in that blank.
Now mindfulness of the body remains which i think i can try to do - but it leads me back to my question - should i feel the physical sensations of the body or should i try to just wait for the next breath to come, because though it is weird to say but somehow when i was feeling the sensations of the body, i think i missed to give attention to the breath. So should i stop trying to feel the sensations and rather try to feel the natural breath? Please suggest. Thanks in advance.
One of the masters who taught my teacher, told him, "keep your body on the cushion, your mind in your body and peace in your mind." Reeling in my mind to my body is the hard part, but I can tell very much when it's there. Holding onto it is another story!
I don't think you are in a deadlock situation. Keep on focusing and noticing the in/out breath, this is most important. Do not let go of this focus, because this is the key. Of course if you do let go of it you can still come back to it, but keep in mind that this is like starting over again. The longer we can hold on to the focus, the more easier everything will be, and the more advanced we will progress. It will all come together once we can hold on to that focus for a long time. When we keep focusing on the breath for a long time, the breath becomes more refined. The refined breath will permeate through our body, and we can feel that permeation. As it permeates through our body, we can feel it affecting our body. The breath starts by entering our nostrils and into our lungs, our lungs expand and contract, oxygen enters our bloodstream, our heart pumps blood through our veins, and our veins spreads blood and oxygen throughout our body. Some of the air that we inhaled has passed through our body. We breathe the air in again and the cycle is repeated. When we can see the whole breathing process, this is mindfulness of the body, and we should be able to see the whole process while keeping the focus on the breath.
Sometimes a thought occurs, but at this stage we just think "thoughts". Or we start to feel hungry, then we just think "hunger". A painful sensation might arise in a certain part of the body, then we just think "pain". An urge or an unskilful desire might occur in our mind, then we notice that and not act on them. When we notice hunger in and of itself, then that is mindfulness of the body. When we notice a painful sensation in and of itself, then that is mindfulness of feelings. When we notice thoughts in and of themselves then that is mindfulness of the mind. (there is no need to go subtle, just notice the thoughts without losing focus) When we notice that an unskilful desire (greed/lust) is present in our mind, in and of itself, and not act on them, then that is mindfulness of mental qualities.
metta
The 3rd foundation is mindfulness of mind-state ( what you've called "mental qualities" ) and the 4th foundation is mindfulness of mental objects ( thoughts etc ).
And strictly speaking hunger is an unpleasant feeling.
Part of the problem - which he acknowledges, to his incredible credit, bless him - is that he over-thinks things and 'tries' too hard.
Our basic recommendation to him is usually, to 'relax' - but he does provoke some interesting discussion, which is often of great help to others, and can be a timely reminder...
Or, do you think the focus should be retained on breathing - but in my case, i am seeing the gaps between breaths are long and so the focus on nose tip gets lost in the gap? May be my focus is too disturbed to keep attention on any particular thing. But still will like to hear some suggestions on how to increase focus for a longer duration on either breath or body during my meditation. Thanks in advance.
Moreover when there is a thought in meditation, then if it is not awareness, then what is that thing which observes that there is a thought going on in meditation?
So please explain the above things. May be i have not understood your statements clearly - if this is the case, then please clarify your statements about awareness. Thanks in advance.
Is there any way you can get some face-to-face instruction / advice on meditation - maybe there is there a Buddhist group or centre that you could visit?
The mind is thought.
There is no mind perceiving a thought.
Just thought arising and passing. Another thought arising and passing.
Color is vision. There is no vision, no color.
Sound is ear. No ear, no sound.
Sorry i am on my phone so its hard to respond.
But basically we view the world through subjects meeting objects. These subjects and objects are all apparently clear but absolutely not findable.
But this is all just too philosophical.
Look for mind. Look for the watcher. See what happens.
Got a doubt regarding how to do Anapanasati - i have read descriptions by various monks on the way of doing Anapanasati. One description is saying to observe the natural breath and just sit and observe it. Another description says to do breathing in a skillful manner and try to develop the breathing which is skillful and generate calmness in the body - so in a way trying to do cautious breathing.
So now my question is - when doing anapanasati, it is ok to observe the breath going in and going out - but what breath should it be - natural breath or cautious breath? Any suggestions please.
One more problem which i observed with my natural breath is that it is very small sometimes and usually inhalation is what is most prominent, and exhalation is barely noticable - dont know why but somehow it is so - in my most observations, i have noticed that my inhalations are sometimes long and sometimes short, but my exhalations are usually barely noticable - even i have to sometimes cautiously breathe out to make me notice my breathing out in my meditation, though it is weird but this is the case as i am seeing. Anybody else who have observed such a thing in their meditation, please suggest.
Thanks in advance.
shut up, and mind ur manners thats all u need....
Meditation is not one technique that takes care of all problems. It's a set of skills you develop to take care of the mind. Also, every mind is different, so we all need to find our own way. See it in this way and you won't get confused by the apparent differences in teachings. So take responsibility and check it out for yourself. Nobody can look in your mind what technique is best for you.
If you can not find the breath, look better. Your attention is not strong enough to see it. If that doesn't work, focus on the body first to sharpen the attention. Last resort could be to hold the breath for a while. When you start breathing again, you can not miss it.
Metta!
Hi All,
In Anapanasati Sutta, which breathing is said to be observed - natural breathing or doing breathing cautiously to make breathing skillful? Any ideas please.
One more question regarding posture - these days somehow my back has starting to ache a little bit. so my question is - does the posture need to such that we feel that our body has a straight back posture maintaining the natural curve of the spine, or , can we relax the back and sit in a easy manner with the back relaxed instead of straight back? means during the complete sitting duration of meditation, should we have this feeling going throughout that our back is straight and the moment it relaxes, we have to make it straight - but then does the attention needs to be on whats going in the mind or whats going in the body posture? please suggest. thanks in advance.
This is in fact mind as well.
Relaxed yet firm.
Sometimes more relaxation is needed thus i start meditation laying down and then transition to sitting.
Sometimes vice versa.
Do also some body work like yoga or taichi when you're not meditating. This will help with cordination of energy and posture, etc.
from last 2 days, i am observing that in my meditation, somehow after sometime, my throat becomes slightly conjested and then if i breathe, a sound starts with my breathing - this occurs only if my head and neck are in a position and if i retain that position and try to feel my breath through my throat area, then my breath is creating this type of sound in my throat.
has anyone felt this type of sound in their throat during breathing - should i focus on breathing through throat in a way creating this sound - or - when this type of sound starts to arise through my throat, should i change my posture to stop this sound from arising? any suggestions please. thanks in advance.