Are we hypocrites?

music

A friend once told me, 'all these religious folks talk of spirituality because the real world is hard. Let these people win a lottery and you'll see their spirituality go down the drain.'

His point is that spirituality has no intrinsic value, just a shock absorber against life, just a reaction to material conditions. In that sense, most of us are hypocrites.

robot

It is not only poor people that are spiritual.
How did he figure spirituality protects people from life?

vinlyn

Generally, I don't think so, Music. I know people who have become semi-rich, and while it has changed their lives in many ways, I didn't find that it changed their basic character. Of course there are exceptions.

lobster

I certainly am a hypocrite.
If I won the lottery, I would buy my own temple, keep it locked up, with a sign saying:
You have more chance of winning the lottery than becoming enlightened here. :wave:

oceancaldera207

music said:

A friend once told me, 'all these religious folks talk of spirituality because the real world is hard. Let these people win a lottery and you'll see their spirituality go down the drain.'

His point is that spirituality has no intrinsic value, just a shock absorber against life, just a reaction to material conditions. In that sense, most of us are hypocrites.

I dunno music, I've never had much money but I used to work in the bar business, surrounded by great drugs, decent pay, an endless line receptive women and social status, and the work was not extremely hard. I mean in a lot of ways i was living a guy's dream... yeah it was pretty good.
But I gave it all that up, and i have no regrets about it, and I dont want to go back there. As good as that all was, authentic spirituality is still better.

PrairieGhost

Hi music:

His point is that spirituality has no intrinsic value, just a shock absorber against life, just a reaction to material conditions.

It only looks and feels like a reaction to material conditions.

andyrobyn

For me it is more about us being imperfect human beings than anything else. Buddhist practice is about progress, not perfection as they say in 12 step groups.

Cinorjer

music said:

A friend once told me, 'all these religious folks talk of spirituality because the real world is hard. Let these people win a lottery and you'll see their spirituality go down the drain.'

His point is that spirituality has no intrinsic value, just a shock absorber against life, just a reaction to material conditions. In that sense, most of us are hypocrites.

What makes anyone think there's no value to having a shock absorber against life? I've never heard that metaphor before, but I like it.

He stretches his point and assumes suffering goes away and people don't look for spirituality in their lives when they have money. The whole point of the Buddha story is that Gautama walked away from wealth and privilage that only those born to wealth experience. True, those born to wealth tend to have a harder time finding what they really need.

To continue his metaphor, it doesn't matter how luxurious the ride, we still get slammed around by potholes and accidents waiting to happen and recognize the need for spiritual shock absorbers.

Citta

music said:

A friend once told me, 'all these religious folks talk of spirituality because the real world is hard. Let these people win a lottery and you'll see their spirituality go down the drain.'

the point is that spirituality has no intrinsic value, just a shock absorber against life, just a reaction to material conditions. In that sense, most of us are hypocrites.

I received by a bequest the equivalent of a fairly substantial lottery win.
I gave most of it away.
I tell you this not to boast about my charitable nature, but to demonstrate that your friends understanding is limited.
What he says may have some truth in the context of Indian society.
But does not address the huge impact that Buddhadharma is having on prosperous westerners who have ( compared to most Indians ) all that the material world has to offer.

driedleaf

If one does not see the dangers of greed, spiritual or not, it can cause great suffering. Spirituality can open many unseen doors towards peace and happiness, that in itself is valuable enough.

BhanteLucky

music said:

A friend once told me, 'all these religious folks talk of spirituality because the real world is hard. Let these people win a lottery and you'll see their spirituality go down the drain.'

Yeah, your friend is sort-of right. The Buddha actually said something similar. He said we humans are at just the right place in the universe. We have just enough suffering to make us want to follow the path to freedom, and we have just enough good stuff and well-being to let us follow that path.
That's why Devas and celestial beings don't have as much opportunity for enlightenment as us humans, because their lives are too pleasurable so there's less motivation to practise.
And those beings in hell-realms can't, because they are too much in suffering.

Same as in the human world here, those who are starving or in the midst of struggling through life don't have time for practise, but we who have a little suffering and a little goodness, have the opportunity.

His point that spirituality is a shock absorber against life, just a reaction to material conditions... is damn right. Life is unsatisfactory, the first noble truth, that's the material conditions, and Buddhism can help me ride it and lessen the shock, all the way up till final release... nirvana.

David

music said:

A friend once told me, 'all these religious folks talk of spirituality because the real world is hard. Let these people win a lottery and you'll see their spirituality go down the drain.'

I don't know your friend but it sounds like they could be deflecting. If one has no spirituality or compassion then it could be hard to see it in others. It's a rationalisation assuming at their base, everybody thinks alike.

A thief usually has the most locks.

His point is that spirituality has no intrinsic value, just a shock absorber against life, just a reaction to material conditions. In that sense, most of us are hypocrites.

Sounds like he's off the mark to me. Spirituality is not just a reaction to the material, it is a reaction by the material in light of there being more to this than the material.

If I suddenly won the lottery, would I try to help less or add substantiality to the help I try to do now?

I can't imagine what suffering I'd have to go through that would make me stop trying to help if I won some money. My heart goes out to anyone that would suffer as much as that.

I think that when we see it's time for us to wake up, there is no real turning off of the alarm... We can hit snooze a lot and many of us do but we still know we need to wake up eventually.

fivebells

Music, you've been around here enough to know that your friend doesn't know what he's talking about. Why are you asking this question?

taiyaki

Spiritual materialism is a common thing. And what your friend says is a common observation when it comes to religion.

Buy why anyone would do that with Buddhism is beyond me. This religion is better not started because it is serious work.

Then again one can call themselves a buddhist as easy as wearing a white shirt.

May being suffer so that they may humble themselves towards practice and sanity.

Songhill

Music

His point is that spirituality has no intrinsic value, just a shock absorber against life, just a reaction to material conditions. In that sense, most of us are hypocrites.

This tone somewhat reminds me of the materialist Jabali in the epic work, Ramayana. Here Jabali is speaking to Rama:

A creature is born and annihilated alone; it has no relations or comrades. Therefore, a man who is affected by the consideration that it is his mother or father should be looked upon as a lunatic. For men ‘father,’ ‘brother,’ ‘home,’ ‘wealth,’are all like a halting stage for a traveler, and no sane persons become attached to them. The father is just the initiator, but it is really the seminal and menstrual fluids combined in the mother’s womb that leads to a man’s birth. At death one meets the inevitable end: this is the way of things and one need not be aggrieved. Those that give precedence to wealth and spiritual merit are really to be pitied—not the others, since it is they who suffer misery here and annihilation at death. People, busy themselves with funeral rites and offerings to the manes: just look at the extravagant waste of food, for what can a dead man eat? If food eaten by one is transferred to the body of another, similar offerings should be made in favor of those that are living abroad instead of supplying them with provender. ‘Sacrifice,’ ‘give,’ ‘receive initiation,’ ‘practice penance,’ ‘renounce—such texts inducing liberality have been composed by clever people. Therefore, an intelligent person should make up his mind that there is nothing else, and entertain that which is directly apprehended by the senses.—(source: History of Philosophy Eastern and Western [vol. 1], p. 81-82)

zombiegirl

music said:

A friend once told me, 'all these religious folks talk of spirituality because the real world is hard. Let these people win a lottery and you'll see their spirituality go down the drain.'

Just from this one statement, I can see that he is prejudice and a pessimist. Prejudice because he lumps a massive group of people together, assuming the same outcome from each of them. Pessimist because he obviously assumes the worst. Both of these assumptions have nothing to do with reality and will only taint the world he sees around him.

I would like to ask him how these views of life are working out for him.

RebeccaS

I don't know where people get this idea that being poor is somehow holy. There's nothing mystical about poverty and there's nothing wrong with wealth.

Metallica

RebeccaS said:

I don't know where people get this idea that being poor is somehow holy. There's nothing mystical about poverty and there's nothing wrong with wealth.

Exactly, majority of Buddhists around the world are wealthy successful people who used their practice to lead into successful lives. Then they can use that wealth to help other people and Buddhist temples.

music

RebeccaS said:

I don't know where people get this idea that being poor is somehow holy. There's nothing mystical about poverty and there's nothing wrong with wealth.

That wasn't his point. He says, 'as long as ppl can't afford things, they're gonna cling to spirituality to fill the void within. But suppose they become instantly rich and could afford all the fancy things, then they will give up spirituality (since these fancy things can fill their void and give meaning to their lives).'

pegembara

music said:

A friend once told me, 'all these religious folks talk of spirituality because the real world is hard. Let these people win a lottery and you'll see their spirituality go down the drain.'

His point is that spirituality has no intrinsic value, just a shock absorber against life, just a reaction to material conditions. In that sense, most of us are hypocrites.

"Religion" is attaching to rites, rituals and beliefs. Religion is just a reaction to material conditions.

"Spirituality" is something else. A spiritual person does not have to be religious and vice versa.

RebeccaS

music said:

RebeccaS said:

I don't know where people get this idea that being poor is somehow holy. There's nothing mystical about poverty and there's nothing wrong with wealth.

That wasn't his point. He says, 'as long as ppl can't afford things, they're gonna cling to spirituality to fill the void within. But suppose they become instantly rich and could afford all the fancy things, then they will give up spirituality (since these fancy things can fill their void and give meaning to their lives).'

I'm pretty wealthy, and I'm going to be even more wealthy in the future. I've also been homeless and poverty stricken. But here I am, still on a spiritual path. My material well being doesn't and hasn't ever played a part in my spiritual endeavor.

Whether you give me everything or you take everything away, it doesn't matter. The material stuff doesn't fill the "void" left by samsara and it never will.

Metallica

RebeccaS said:

music said:

RebeccaS said:

I don't know where people get this idea that being poor is somehow holy. There's nothing mystical about poverty and there's nothing wrong with wealth.

That wasn't his point. He says, 'as long as ppl can't afford things, they're gonna cling to spirituality to fill the void within. But suppose they become instantly rich and could afford all the fancy things, then they will give up spirituality (since these fancy things can fill their void and give meaning to their lives).'

I'm pretty wealthy, and I'm going to be even more wealthy in the future. I've also been homeless and poverty stricken. But here I am, still on a spiritual path. My material well being doesn't and hasn't ever played a part in my spiritual endeavor.

Whether you give me everything or you take everything away, it doesn't matter. The material stuff doesn't fill the "void" left by samsara and it never will.

Do you find that when you have money you no longer have to burden others to take care of you, and instead you can take care of others with cash?

Just like why we practice Buddhism, so we can get our head above the suffering sea of Greed, Anger, and Ignorance, so when people come to ask for your help, we can actually help them.

RebeccaS

@Metallica said:

RebeccaS said:

music said:

RebeccaS said:

I don't know where people get this idea that being poor is somehow holy. There's nothing mystical about poverty and there's nothing wrong with wealth.

That wasn't his point. He says, 'as long as ppl can't afford things, they're gonna cling to spirituality to fill the void within. But suppose they become instantly rich and could afford all the fancy things, then they will give up spirituality (since these fancy things can fill their void and give meaning to their lives).'

I'm pretty wealthy, and I'm going to be even more wealthy in the future. I've also been homeless and poverty stricken. But here I am, still on a spiritual path. My material well being doesn't and hasn't ever played a part in my spiritual endeavor.

Whether you give me everything or you take everything away, it doesn't matter. The material stuff doesn't fill the "void" left by samsara and it never will.

Do you find that when you have money you no longer have to burden others to take care of you, and instead you can take care of others with cash?

Just like why we practice Buddhism, so we can get our head above the suffering sea of Greed, Anger, and Ignorance, so when people come to ask for your help, we can actually help them.

Well, people often require more than cash but it's nice to be in a position of giving rather than taking. It's a great privilege and honor to be able to have the means to take care of my loved ones.

I'm going to see my mom for the first time in years next year when she comes for a three week visit, and I'm really happy to be able to take care of some of her expenses. She's always wanted to visit TO and I'm really glad to be a part of making that happen for her.

Metallica

pegembara said:

music said:

A friend once told me, 'all these religious folks talk of spirituality because the real world is hard. Let these people win a lottery and you'll see their spirituality go down the drain.'

His point is that spirituality has no intrinsic value, just a shock absorber against life, just a reaction to material conditions. In that sense, most of us are hypocrites.

"Religion" is attaching to rites, rituals and beliefs.
"Spirituality" is something else. A spiritual person does not have to be religious and vice versa.

That is "YOUR" labelling for religion. What is spirituality? Increasing one's own ego and attaching to one's own views?

Buddhism as a religion has clear doctrines and practices helps one going toward the right path. Every ritual are created to give us peace, meditation and room to think. If you only treat rituals as rituals, of course it's of no benefit. If you use rituals as a practice, then they are being used as tools to help us.

Buddhism is VERY tolerant and will not persecute people, have hate marches and bully people based on their beliefs. But Buddhists will certainly try to tell you more positive ways of think if they can.

"it's for your own good", butttt, we all too free and proud to accept that don't we?

vinlyn

Metallica said:

Exactly, majority of Buddhists around the world are wealthy successful people who used their practice to lead into successful lives. Then they can use that wealth to help other people and Buddhist temples.

You apparently haven't met many Thai Buddhists.

Metallica

vinlyn said:

Metallica said:

Exactly, majority of Buddhists around the world are wealthy successful people who used their practice to lead into successful lives. Then they can use that wealth to help other people and Buddhist temples.

You apparently haven't met many Thai Buddhists.

You apparentlly haven't met many Taiwanese Buddhists.

If it weren't rich benefactors and support from the kings, Buddhism since 2500 years couldn't have benefitted society the way it is.

So what is many Thai Buddhists let greed get the best of them, do you only look at the negative actions of humans?

vinlyn

Only a few. My experience has been in Thailand, and I've met or at least seen tens of thousands of very poor Buddhists around that country...and very few rich ones.

If you were American, I assume you'd be supporting Mitt because he believes most of the advancement of society is accomplished by the rich.

RebeccaS

vinlyn said:

If you were American, I assume you'd be supporting Mitt because he believes most of the advancement of society is accomplished by the rich.

I'm super excited for the election! I'm not American or anything, but I am.

Sorry for the derail, I just wanted to share

Metallica

vinlyn said:

Only a few. My experience has been in Thailand, and I've met or at least seen tens of thousands of very poor Buddhists around that country...and very few rich ones.

If you were American, I assume you'd be supporting Mitt because he believes most of the advancement of society is accomplished by the rich.

The world doesn't revolve around America and the two party system.

If you look around the world you will realise that liberalism/socialism and personal responsiblity/conservative are not mutually exclusive.

Again, obviously you haven't seen how Taiwanese Buddhists behave. Are you doing what Edward Said has mentioned on Orientalism? Claiming the values of countries based "vinylncentric views"?

RebeccaS

Edward Said is an idiot.

vinlyn

I'll repeat, I know close to nothing about Buddhists in Taiwan. So what? In some countries the vast majority of Buddhists are dirt poor, and they are probably more important in the propagation of Buddhism than the rich donors. Building a wealthy temple is not Buddhism. As a monk told me once, "These temple buildings, even that Buddha statue, has nothing to do with Buddhism. All you need for Buddhism is your mind."

Metallica

vinlyn said:

I'll repeat, I know close to nothing about Buddhists in Taiwan. So what? In some countries the vast majority of Buddhists are dirt poor, and they are probably more important in the propagation of Buddhism than the rich donors. Building a wealthy temple is not Buddhism. As a monk told me once, "These temple buildings, even that Buddha statue, has nothing to do with Buddhism. All you need for Buddhism is your mind."

See, you claim superority because you claim to "know". Now your change tactic when you claim not to "know".

Now you even claim what is and what is not Buddhism totally going against whats written in Buddhist sutras and stories of the Buddha left throughout history.

Infact you go up against western civilisation's contribution to Buddhism by creating the first beautiful Buddha statue in Gandhara.

Metallica

RebeccaS said:

Edward Said is an idiot.

Hmmm, aren't you against predjudice?

Edward Said is clearly conditioned have biased opinions based on his Arabic nationality. But his claim about western projection of other cultural ideals are very accurate.

RebeccaS

Metallica said:

RebeccaS said:

Edward Said is an idiot.

Hmmm, aren't you against predjudice?

Edward Said is clearly conditioned have biased opinions based on his Arabic nationality. But his claim about western projection of other cultural ideals are very accurate.

I'm unfortunate enough to be familiar with his work, and he goes beyond bias into a hardcore agenda. The guy is an idiot, and is correct in his observations only as far as "Mystery" is in his- http://www.cracked.com/article_16988_the-5-worst-sources-advice-television.html - watch the video and see him explain what happens during a "pick-up" when a guy is trying to approach a girl.

Daozen

Yes we are all hypocrites, but is that the worst crime in the world?

For example, if a murderer says "don't kill others", they are being a terrible hypocrite, but nonetheless, their advice is good.

Perhaps hypocrisy signals the possibility that we could and should do better, even when our imperfect human natures mean that we often don't.

lobster

The question of hypocrisy has not just been answered, it has been illustrated.
Bravo brave and heedless fellow hypocrites of rich mindlessness :clap:

Metallica

RebeccaS said:

Metallica said:

RebeccaS said:

Edward Said is an idiot.

Hmmm, aren't you against predjudice?

Edward Said is clearly conditioned have biased opinions based on his Arabic nationality. But his claim about western projection of other cultural ideals are very accurate.

I'm unfortunate enough to be familiar with his work, and he goes beyond bias into a hardcore agenda. The guy is an idiot, and is correct in his observations only as far as "Mystery" is in his- http://www.cracked.com/article_16988_the-5-worst-sources-advice-television.html - watch the video and see him explain what happens during a "pick-up" when a guy is trying to approach a girl.

lol, wtf?! I am talking about Edward W Said the dead Arab guy who wrote "Orientalism"!!!! Have you been trying to pick up chicks?! tsk tsk

RebeccaS

Ha lol. Maybe it wasn't such a good example but we're talking about the same Said.

DairyLama

The material stuff doesn't fill the "void" left by samsara and it never will.

Very true. And as they say, you can't take it with you when you go.

Cinorjer

Really, the problem is that the person who thinks spirituality gets thrown away when wealth arrives has watched one too many movies with this trite plot from lazy script writers. You've seen it over and over. Someone with no money but a nice person rich in friends hits it big. The lie that's slipped into the story is that money changes people. So that person changes, dumping the old friends and what used to be important in his life for a new circle of shallow friends and it's all about the money, now.

Then this being a story with a familiar plot, somewhere along the line, something happens that causes the person to Learn the Lesson that fame and fortune can't make people happy, that true happiness is in honest friendship and living a spiritual life.

The reality is, money doesn't change people. You remain the same person with the same selfish desires, only now you have money to act on the desires. But the nature of desire is that it can never be satisfied for long. I will say the rich suffer in luxury, and if I'm going to suffer anyway, it is nicer to have money.

The world is full of miserable, non-spiritual poor people. Poor people fill our prisons and commit most of the violent crimes. So you can't say a spiritual life is more attractive to poor people.

hermitwin

this is how 'unspiritual' people talk about it.
what will dalai lama or mother teresa do if they won the lottery?

music said:

A friend once told me, 'all these religious folks talk of spirituality because the real world is hard. Let these people win a lottery and you'll see their spirituality go down the drain.'

His point is that spirituality has no intrinsic value, just a shock absorber against life, just a reaction to material conditions. In that sense, most of us are hypocrites.