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The 5 precepts
TheEccentric
Hampshire, UK Veteran
This doesn't really apply to me much because I'm not really old enough to even want to break most of them but if you do break them do you get excommunicated or not considered a "true" Buddhist. Does anybody here blatantly ignore any of the precepts?
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Some people will think I'm a shit Buddhist, but let 'em
I've never heard of a Buddhist apostate, at least, not in the sense that people who leave the religion are blacklisted.
So, do I "blatantly ignore" precepts? From some people's perspective, I do. From mine and my teachers, I do not, and I put more weight on what my teacher has to say than a bunch of people online, most of whom are a different tradition than me anyhow. You have to do what is right for you. But the challenge comes in with your ability to look honestly at why you choose to do things if you feel they are against the precepts.
1. I undertake the training rule to abstain from taking life. Pāṇātipātā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.
2. I undertake the training rule to abstain from taking what is not given. Adinnādānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.
3. I undertake the training rule to abstain from sexual misconduct. Kāmesumicchācāra veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.
4. I undertake the training rule to abstain from false speech. Musāvādā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.
5. I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drink that causes heedlessness. Surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.[6]
I explaine this often to people new to buddhism but as you can see.. these are training rules
there is no guilt in buddhism.. no confession in buddhism( except for monastics), there is no such thing as excommunication either.. this isn't like the church where you belong to some organized body.
the precepts are very grey, not black and white.. so people interpret this in different ways, especially the 5th precept refraining from taking drinks or drugs that cause heedlessness. I personally have not had any alcohol since taking on the precepts on Vesak of 2008 and I don't miss it one bit. Other people are not ready to do this. The more of the precepts that you can follow the better obviously but following some is better then none.
As an aside, I also include "sensual" misconduct as part of the third precept i.e. don't over indulge in food, TV, music etc.
buddhism is all about the consequences of your actions.
if you tell lies all the time, what will be the consequencces?
. . . so failed that one . . . Oh yes I will steal any karma I can even though it is not possible, I will steal your time and your equanimity . . .
. . . more failure . . . I lust after every woman I see. So gorgeous.
oh well . . . no success there . . . I lie every time I open my mouth, which is rarely closed . . .
. . . not doing very well . . . Hope to get drunk at Christmas . . .
. . . well that's it then . . . straight to the hell realms for me . . . I hope we have a barbecue . . .
. . . look forward to telling the demon realms the effects of breaking precepts . . . :clap:
Addressing your question I drink about two three glasses of wine a week and may be two beers also.
Which a Theravadin might tell you is a blatant ignoring of the precept..but which many Mahayanists see as a middle path.
. . . so failed that one . . . Oh yes I will steal any karma I can even though it is not possible, I will steal your time and your equanimity . . .
. . . more failure . . . I lust after every woman I see. So gorgeous.
oh well . . . no success there . . . I lie every time I open my mouth, which is rarely closed . . .
. . . not doing very well . . . Hope to get drunk at Christmas . . .
. . . well that's it then . . . straight to the hell realms for me . . . I hope we have a barbecue . . .
. . . look forward to telling the demon realms the effects of breaking precepts . . . :clap:
ya know what your worst offense in all of this is? guilt( being attached to your past actions) and negativity(attaching fear to the future)
My worst offence is not caring about precepts as a form of moral and social Straitjacket.
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/14842/have-you-ever-mindfully-broken-a-precept-to-serve-a-greater-good :wave:
Don't think I will ever make the grade . . .
For monks though, there is a similar type of thing where if the monk violates certain rules, etc. they are "disrobed". Which is not exactly the same as "excommunication" but its along the same lines.
Some people might think you are not a "true Buddhist". But I would not pay attention to these people because these are the people who think they have never broken any of these vows themselves. Yea right, LOL! Even the highest masters have broken vows before. Of course they don't anymore but they did at one point.
However, just because you are young, I would not say they don't apply.. It's never good to kill stuff, lie about stuff and steal stuff, regardless of how old you are.
They're not "just" training rules. And they're not training you as some sort of mental /emotional technique (chess would be equally effective in that regard).
They're training you not to murder. They're training you not to steal. They're training you not to lie. They're training you not to be sexually irresponsible. They're training you not to partake in intoxicating substances.
And the lack of consistency on this forum about Precepts is bothersome, as well. For example, a couple of times in the distant past I suggested that the rule that monks not eat after noon be abolished for health reasons and because there is no truly significant justification for the rule. And I was cut down pretty quickly by members saying that oh no, you couldn't eliminate or modify that rule...and yet some of those say members drink alcohol and/or take drugs.
I know some of you are not going to like this post, but you keep having your say on this topic...over and over again. So I'm going to bring up the other view.
And since we're being so honest here, I personally think that the reason that quite a few people minimize the Precepts -- or in some cases certain Precepts -- is because some people just want to do what they enjoy doing (e.g., DON'T EAT A HAMBURGER, but let's go down to Hop's Bar).
The precepts are aids to staying on the path to the cessation of suffering. The breadth, width and subtlety of what they cover makes them in the absolute, both unbreakable and unkeepable. A practitioner just follows them the best they can.
Eventually one will see that their kaleidoscopic nature demonstrates that no one precept can be broken without some transgression of all the others just as the keeping of one will assist in supporting the rest.
Those interested in traversing the Buddha's path use the precepts to show themselves where their behaviour will lead them off the path.
Spiritual children will see them as curtailments and disciplinary rules.
Spiritual adults recognaise them for the masters they are.
There is no single pan- Buddhist view of the issues involved.
Not even when contemplating the first precept..I was present when one of the very seniormost Tibetan Teachers said that if you became aware that a terrorist was about to detonate an atomic bomb then your Buddhist duty is to stop him . even if that meant killing him.
Its a wonderful thing to have an ecumenical Buddhist forum..but absolute statements will only ever be consistent to a particular tradition.
The Dzogchen tradition within which I practice is authentic and ancient and has no hard and fast rule about alcohol ( for example ) at all. The same is also true I believe of many Zen lineages as well as the Nyingma lineage in Vajrayana..
But Rinzai Zen and some branches of Soto Zen as well as Dzogchen do not merely have a different interpretation of the Precepts, they do not use them at all.
Their approach to Sila.. ( morality , ethics ) takes its position from the intrinsic nature of Buddhadhatu or Dharmadhatu..not from external precepts.
As someone who ignores the fifth precept, I can tell you that I suffer from ignoring it. (Though a bacon sandwich and an old Polish hangover cure do help somewhat
They seem less constrictive and more constructive as you get a bit older and see that they're not there to hold us back or to make life boring, they actually contribute to a much brighter experience of life.
You begin to want to live your life by the precepts because ignoring them simply doesn't make sense.
That sounded harsher than I meant it to, sorry.
I just mean that following the precepts isn't a big deal. It's not like you're being asked to hold your breath in a shark tank for two hours; keeping them isn't some major feat. For the most part it's just common decency.
or just in accord with enlightenment?
I'll be in the corner counting how many New buddhists can dance on the head of a pin.
as for the terrorist bomb scenario, killing is killing no matter what.. But I think most anyone would take that kamma on to save everyone else.
Certainly in Dzogchen there is no parallel process.
Let me be clear..I am not arguing against the use of the precepts, as I said my first instruction was in the Theravada and I took the precepts and Refuge.
I am pointing out that there is no single approach to them..from the absolute teetotal stance of many Theravadin teachers on the one hand to the Dzogchen View on the other where what is paramount is the introduction to ones Primordial Mind by the actions of a Guru and a gradualist approach is eschewed .
A whole new Dzogchen centred website has recently been set up by followers of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, one of the best known Dzogchen teachers current, largely by Dzogchen students who no longer identify with any Buddhist position.
Indeed some of ChNN's students are Christian monks and nuns.
Just curious but do you have a link to the sanhga that doesn't teach vows? My sangha is in the Shantideva tradition and in that tradition there are vows as far as I am aware. When I asked my teacher what to do in the eightfold prior to right view and she said to uphold the 10 skilfull actions and not commit the 10 unskilful actions. Maybe @taiyaki also has some info on Dzogchen?
The bottom line is, my practice is my practice. If I drink 5 iced teas on Thursday, one glass of wine on my date nights with the husband, or none at all, how, exactly, does it affect your practice? It doesn't. We all simply do the best we can and as long as you are open to your best changing suddenly, or over time, then terrific. If you are going to drink a 6 pack every night and say "screw that precept, I'll never stop drinking" then that's a different problem, if you ask me.
We all have our sticking points, and I think it's unfair to call someone out for them saying they might be vegetarian but have not 100% stopped drinking. Because not all the precepts are as easy for some as for others to attain, it's just something we work towards. Not something we suddenly read and can do that day. It's a work in progress, it's a practice, and that's how it should be if you ask me.
At least we think about it, consider it, talk about it. The best thing is only to worry about yourself. None of us here are perfect in our practice. If we were, we wouldn't need to be here.
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu.
There are limits to what can be publically talked about in terms of Dzogchen practice...this is not coyness or being mysterious...Dzogchen can only be understood in relationship with a realised teacher.
However anyone interested can google The Dzogchen Community. which will provide links.
Been studying and practicing Mahamudra as well and it seems its basically the same samaya.
Traditional Hinayana vows are taken if that is necessary medicine for a certain sickness of an individual practitioner. If not necessary, then one doesn't limit themselves and goes for the real meaning.
That is what I've heard.
Though I really don't bother about these things. =]
Soto Zen..got precepts coming out our ears. Need to talk to your friends again.
Most of their laity take the 10 precepts.
As for my general attitude towards the precepts, I wouldn't go so far as to say the precepts are just training rules, but in the context of the path, I definitely think it makes sense to view them as such. One reason is that the precepts and practices of Buddhism are often referred to in terms of 'rules of training' in the Suttas. In addition, the path itself is often described as a gradual path, which usually begins with teachings about generosity and morality (especially when concerning lay-followers), and then moves on to more and more refined aspects. In MN 107, for example, the Buddha explains how the path can be seen as a "gradual training, gradual doing, gradual practice in respect of this dhamma and discipline," and it begins with morality: (For other suttas similar to this, see AN 3.8, AN 3.85, AN 3.86, Snp 4.15, Ud 5.5 , etc. )
Beyond that, my own personal approach towards, and understanding of, the precepts is that they're things we voluntarily take on because we believe that there's something skillful about doing so, and which we're encouraged to observe to the best of our ability. They constitute the basic level of virtue the Buddha advises is necessary for the peace of mind conducive to a successful practice, especially in regard to meditation, and they're seen as gifts "that are not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and are unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives & priests" (AN 8.39).
As such, I don't see them as being equivalent to commandments dictated by a higher power and/or authority, but more as ethical guidelines. In essence, these precepts are undertaken to protect oneself, as well as others, from the results of our unskillful actions. Hence the underlying principles behind Buddhist ethics are kamma — the idea that certain actions produce pleasant, painful, or neutral feelings/results — and the principle of ahimsa or harmlessness. Essentially, Buddhist ethics revolve around seeing our desires for happiness and freedom from pain in all living creatures (SN 3.8). Nevertheless, Buddhism is ultimately a type of 'religious individualism' in that the teachings on kamma focus on individual actions and their consequences, so ethics are more or less a personal matter that each individual must explore and develop on their own; although guidance is certainly advised.
And all of this helps to inform my opinion that Buddhist ethics aren't entirely black or white, i.e., they aren't seen in terms of ethical and unethical as much as skillful and unskillful. In Buddhism, all intentional actions are understood to have potential consequences, and actions that cause harm to others and/or ourselves are considered to be unskillful and something to be avoided. But the Buddha never condemns people merely for making unskillful choices or breaking the precepts; he simply urges them (albeit with strong language sometimes) to learn from their mistakes and to make an effort to renounce their unskillful behaviour with the understanding that skillful behaviour leads to long-term welfare and happiness.
Certainly our adherence to the precepts will improve in the course of our practice, and skillful actions (done out of non-greed, non-hatred, and non-delusions) are morally superior (i.e., more beneficial, wholesome, and conducive to pleasure and happiness) than unskillful ones; but we're not expected to be perfect in our morality right away. As the Buddha explains in AN 9.7, only one "whose mental fermentations are ended, who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who is released through right gnosis [i.e., an arahant], cannot possibly transgress these five principles." At that point, they're no longer precepts, but a natural part of our being.
And I can't speak for anyone else, but I still have a long way to go before I'm completely incapable of transgressing any of the precepts, which is why I just find it more useful to view the precepts as training rules, guidelines, etc. that I do my best to adhere to and follow while on the gradual path towards nibbana and moral perfection than commandments inviolably set in stone. It's certainly better not to break them. But if I happen to break one, instead of condemning myself and inflicting additional suffering on top of that already conditioned by my unskillful action, I simply have to acknowledge the breach and carry on with my practice, striving not to make the same mistakes in the future.