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Failure?
lobster
Crusty Veteran
Still working on becoming enlightened. Had hoped that April would be the month. We are now in May. Maybe I should not try so hard. Come to think of it, I don't really try hard. Failure it seems, comes along anyway. There is nothing we can do. That's life.
If I do, or don't become a Buddha what difference will it make? It seems there are sufficient enlightened beings, teachers, books, all kinds of access to information and teachings. Maybe I should take up knitting?
A lot of the people here, seem to think liberation is a side effect, or not that important, why is that? Are we just practising to gain a little peace and equanimity? Is Buddhism just a way of coping with life? Should it be something more? What is the purpose of Buddhism? Are we failures or is it just me?
If I do, or don't become a Buddha what difference will it make? It seems there are sufficient enlightened beings, teachers, books, all kinds of access to information and teachings. Maybe I should take up knitting?
A lot of the people here, seem to think liberation is a side effect, or not that important, why is that? Are we just practising to gain a little peace and equanimity? Is Buddhism just a way of coping with life? Should it be something more? What is the purpose of Buddhism? Are we failures or is it just me?
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Comments
You don't need to explain or justify it.
You just know.
And when you know, there's no need to broadcast it.
Others will know you by your actions, not by what you proclaim yourself to be.
In truth, @lobster, the closer to 'Enlightenment' you keep telling us you are, the further away from it, exponentially, you get.
No offense, but seems to me you are fooling yourself. Please, for your own benefit change your idea of where you are and where you have to go. Because like this you will only get yourself worked up. My advise is to spend some time in a monastery or other retreat setting. It may help you see things in the right perspective. Talk to a teacher there.
With metta,
Sabre
with all this...but now....I have no idea.
It's starting to sound like 'who's on first?', haha
I'm also curious about one thing....
this is the third time you have brought up knitting.
As a knitter of course...I have to ask...
what are you getting at? What are you trying to
say about it's relation to all this?
P.S.- I'll start taking up the collection for bail...
When I first started my own Zen journey, the Rev Young told me when meditating to ask myself only one question: "What is it I want?" and that I'd know when the answer was right. And he also said that answer would change from time to time.
I remember the first time he asked me what my answer was, and I said "To be enlightened" and he shook his head and told me to try again. That's the official response but the one big thing that Teacher taught me is that nobody wants to be enlightened. That doesn't even mean anything. The Noble Truths don't start out, "The problem with the world is, there aren't enough enlightened people in it."
Eventually I found my first answer. I was young, single (divorced), and living thousands of miles away from my family home, but had no idea what to do with my life. I was miserable and wanted my life to have meaning. That, Rev Young told me, was a good place to start.
Today, I'm far from young, married many years, and sometimes I wish my family would leave me alone for a while. I'm far from miserable. I'm not that young man anymore. So what is it I want, now?
I'll get back to you with the answer when I figure it out.
1. To make (a fabric or garment) by intertwining yarn or thread in a series of connected loops either by hand, with knitting needles, or on a machine.
2. To form (yarn or thread) into fabric by intertwining.
3. To join closely; unite securely.
4. To draw (the brows) together in wrinkles; furrow.
Imagine that you have the thread (one of the meanings of Tantra) and you are interested in becoming 'a man of wool' (one of the meanings of Sufi) or in our case a Buddha.
Now before you knit your temples, imagine we too are part of the yarn. In order to join closely or knit a new community of Buddhists, what do we need?
We have plenty of experts who know what I need :clap:
They offer genuine and meritorious advice. Still I am a failure :bawl:
What we need is skilful knitters and not just overgrown nits like me . . .
It is true, what they say: "The truth WILL set you free. But, first, it will really piss you off."
That would make a difference - wouldn't it?
I think, the instant a person says, "I am enlightened," and even if it WERE true, it ceases to be true at the instant that is said.
I know I sound rather pissy. I apologize for that. I am re-evaluating a lot of things at the moment and maybe my frustration is showing...
You can just kick out a wall of the building you're living in each time you need to get out for a breath of fresh air. It's slow, and it raises the risk that some part of your home collapses on you unexpectedly. Still, it's a responsible way to proceed if you don't really know what you're doing (dropping a hellfire missile on the wrong building is bad news), and the up-close-and-detailed work can teach you how a building and its components are put together. Plus, you get to walk around in the fresh air occasionally, which is helpful for verifying that you're on the right track.
I don't think you have to be enlightened to tell if someone is enlightened. Just observe. If sentient beings are drawn to them, they appear to be truly content no matter what the circumstance, and they practice true compassion (amongst other things I know I'm probably leaving out)? Then it's a no-brainer.
And I think you can tell if you're enlightened or not. It's like having an orgasm. Before having one, most people go, "Uhhhh... I think I had one before." No. If you've had one before, you would know it. I think it's the same with enlightenment.
Orgasms and enlightenment: two things you simply cannot deny you've experienced when they happen.
Had he not we wouldn't have the Dharma.
How can something true, cease to be true because someone said it?
It honest-to-God leaves me flabbergasted when I see/hear people talking about liberation or enlightenment and then claiming they really, really want it.
When I want a chocolate bar, I know what the hell I am talking about.
But if someone actually knew what liberation/enlightenment was, how in the world could they possibly want it? That would be like saying you want to learn how to breathe while you were already breathing.
And the same question applies to those who claim not to know what liberation/enlightenment is: How can you want something when you don't know what it is? Sure, you can read books and imagine you had found clues ... but that's all cotton candy and not the real McCoy, right? And if that is true, then what you want is never exactly what you want ... it's just more cotton candy.
@Lobster ... relax. Take your time. Keep on keepin' on. Never mind "Buddhism" or "enlightenment" or "emptiness" or "compassion." Just keep on keepin' on and see what happens. Maybe it's all a hoax and a delusion. Maybe it's the brightest pot of gold ever. Never mind. Just see what happens.
Also, as I understand enlightenment it is perfectly reasonable to want it even once you know what it is. The desire for it is only dropped in the very last step on the way to it.
Please find a decent Buddhist teacher in real life and have a chat.
Be happy,
Sabre
Just something to do. Entertainment.
Between you, me and the lamp post, I think his goal is
NOT to be a cookie-cutter kinda Buddha, you know what
I mean, Vern?
Trolling? No way. The material is too revealing. He has to
read the stuff himself to even post it...think about it. He doesn't post
junk....the links are dead serious stuff. He's a terrible troll...lolololol
Friendly? Yep!
Long Live the Lobster........ I say! :clap:
Don't get me wrong. I really like it and I'm interested when @lobster is being serious.
I just don't share his sense of humour. And when he is predicting his own awakening I can only assume he is joking and filling time.
up to all of us in the group to take what is offered and apply
it to practice, if we are able. You have experience worth sharing.
If that’s what Enlightenment is I certainly don’t have it.
My problem is that I don’t trust teachers who appear to be like that. I don’t believe a person who says he has all the answers. I trust people who have doubts and problems and unanswered questions. I trust people with unfinished business. Maybe that’s because I can relate to them.
So either I trust the unenlightened more than the enlightened or my definition of enlightenment is off the mark.
The bottom line is that in fact our present “unenlightened” state of mind is not so bad.
Don’t change @lobster, don’t become a Buddha just yet. Keep things open for a little longer.
Fail some more.
At the first Buddhist council, held several months after Buddha's death, supposedly 500 proclaimed and accepted Arahants attended. And that was just the men, because the men refused to let the female Arahants attend. Arahant back then meant the same thing as Enlightened according to the Buddha himself. What made one an Arahant? Having the other senior monks agree you were one. Granted, the title was a bit more jealously guarded by the hiearchy as the centuries went by and some schools of Buddhism began to make a distinction between regular Arahant status and full blown Buddhahood.
By the way, these self-elected enlightened Arahants? The ones supposedly free from defilements like jealousy and anger and such? The first thing they did was put Ananda on trial for daring to persuade Buddha to admit women into the sangha.
So using the original standards and going by the original checklist, just about every senior monk is an Arahant and thus enlightened. Kinda disappointing, isn't it? Today, we want that word to mean something more.
From 'The Life of Brian?':
Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
. . . I will continue to mirror, disappoint, troll, amuse, have fun, look for a teacher, practice, give up, be comprehensible, be incomprehensible, be un-prophetic, sadden, happify, be serious, share my sense of humour, live long an' prosper etc etc etc . . .
. . . meanwhile, when we are all Buddhas . . .
http://buddhism.about.com/od/whatsabuddha/a/whatsabuddha.htm
. . . we may just . . .
Since things neither exist nor don't exist,
are neither real nor unreal,
are utterly beyond adopting and rejecting -
one might as well burst out laughing.
Longchenpa
http://luminousemptiness.blogspot.co.uk/2004/12/middle-path.html
:wave:
"There is no enlightenment outside of daily life."
"Enlightenment is always there. Small enlightenment will bring great enlightenment. If you breathe in and are aware that you are alive—that you can touch the miracle of being alive—then that is a kind of enlightenment."
Is it possible to have glimpses of enlightenment? Like you briefly have a moment of what it might be like, just for a split second, then it's gone, like Deja Vu? Or is that something completely different? Can it come in bits and pieces and stages? or is it just gone one day, and there the next all the time?
Lots of the stories that have been told by teachers seem to have a lot of magical/psychic qualities about being enlightened. The same types of things are as said about God and/or Jesus. When I was a child I always heard Jesus knows exactly how many hairs are on your head. When I went to a short retreat lately, the Lama said that when one is fully enlightened, they can see the past, present and future all as one. That they can look at a huge audience and pick people out and say exactly what is on their mind, and what their past lives were, and so on. I am not sure I believe the stories about that any more than I believed the one about Jesus knowing about my hair. It just doesn't seem like it is as mystical as all that.
I believe one can be enlightened without having psychic abilities. The Lama who did our retreat even claimed to have some of that ability but would not talk about it (he brought it up, then refused to answer questions saying it was too dangerous). Those things might be possible, I don't know if they are or not. I'm skeptical but I won't flat out say it never happens. Anyhow, it just lead me to wonder to myself if there are stages of enlightenment. When teachers always say "Fully enlightened"it leads me to believes there is some sort of partial or temporary enlightenment.
I don't think you get a glimpse of enlightenment because there is all this samsara to distract you. But you do get glimpses that make your heart happy because it knows it is right way to go. We are born to see beauty with our sensitivity and the sky or a piece of music can manifest this sensitivity. The same sensitivity is there in a Buddha. Some things are blown away (kleshas), and some things were always there such as your heart and sensitivity.