"Is it true, is it necessary, is it kind?"

SillyPutty

I have a more specific situation, but I will generalize it for the sake of this thread:

Let's say you have a friend... and this friend is constantly being disrespected by two other close relatives. Your friend has bent over backwards for them and still these other 2 relatives of theirs are ungrateful and disrespectful. One seems to be all about themselves at every waking moment, while the other is full of anger and resentment. (At least, as an outside observer, this is what you perceive due to their words and actions, as well as interactions with your friend. I know, I know, it's bad that I'm even forming an opinion about the situation, right? But I digress....)

So, there you are, sitting on the sidelines, trying to practice right speech. You *perceive* that these other relatives are operating from a very egocentric place and there's obviously a history of deep pain amongst all of them. So, when you see your friend is obviously in pain, what do you do? Now that I'm trying to desperately remember the whole, "Is it true, is it necessary, is it kind?" teaching, I feel like I shouldn't say much of anything to anyone anymore!

However, today I found myself slipping back into old habits, even when remembering the quote. My first reaction was a bad one. I began spouting off phrases like, "I can't believe they did that to you!" and "That is so selfish!" and other judgmental things I know I had no right saying. I was becoming angry, disgusted, and a slew of other negative emotions which, I know logically, is not going to help my friend feel better, so why even bother? I also found myself offering suggestions to a situation I probably have no right voicing my opinion on.

So what would be the most Buddhist way of handling this situation? You see your friend is being used, is hurt, and needs some guidance and reassurance. You want to "take their side" and offer some comfort and validation (i.e. "Yes, it appears that they are treating you unfairly") without passing judgement on the other people. So what do you say? What do you do?

Like I said, I'm finding that the more I force myself to remember that quote, the less I find myself talking... which is a good thing. However, I know the point in life isn't to go around like a mute and not have any opinions or feelings... or is it??? Maybe that's what being enlightened is... you don't feel positively or negatively about anything or anyone... you don't have opinions because there are no opinions to form? You're just... neutral. You just... are? I dunno.

karasti

You can tell your friend that it is ok for them to feel how they are feeling, without judging the assumed offenders. People usually don't want validation of external things, but internal. We want to be validated for how we feel. But, sometimes doing that can keep a person in the same circle of emotion instead of getting out of it. Sometimes people who find themselves in these situations have been in them so long that it's just the norm, even if they know it makes them feel poorly. Why does your friend continue to bendover backwards for people who treat him/her so badly? It is good to do things for others, but that doesn't mean you let people walk over you. I think even the most realized people still feel things. But they don't react to them, not internally, and not externally.

Anyhow, you can be there by saying "I'm here for you. I care for you. I'm sorry that you are feeling frustrated/upset/sad/angry." Most of the time, people just need to process through situations, and offering advice is really the last thing they want. But we on the other side often want to help and we don't know how to listen without offering suggestions. Sometimes listening is just the best thing we can do. Our commentary is more necessary for us, than the other person.

SillyPutty

Thanks, @karasti. I guess my main problem is that, since it's my friend, I feel like I have to give them a point-by-point rant of why I think this-or-that in order to, as you said, create my own commentary. I'm finding it super hard to not jump in and offer my unsolicited $0.02 on this matter, but when I look back at the things I said, I already know that my friend knows this-- so what was the point in saying it, other than to feed my own emotions, you know?

karasti said:

Why does your friend continue to bendover backwards for people who treat him/her so badly? It is good to do things for others, but that doesn't mean you let people walk over you.

Well, the "relatives" in this situation are the person's children. I think they do it out of guilt, number one. And number two, well... it's their children. It's a complicated mess, that's why I just wanted to give a general setup. But it then leads me to this question:

If you're in a similar situation like this where your adult children are treating you poorly, what do you do? If they only contact you when they want something and they constantly disrespect you, is it wrong to stop trying to make any efforts towards the relationship(s)? If they've basically given up and only use you, then when do you just say to yourself, "They are adults, they chose to cut me out of their life (unless they need something from me), so I should just let it be and stop trying for my own emotional well being." I guess I find it hard to find an answer to this since I don't have children (at least not human ones!) of my own.

karasti

I guess it depends on the entirety of the history and situation, but children who are adults, are just people too, no matter how attached we are to them as our children. Sometimes, a parent HAS to let go of a toxic adult child to be ok themselves, and I think that is ok. My kids are still kids, so I have a hard time figuring what I would do. I guess the best i can tell now, I would try to stay kind to them and just explain that this is not how I like to see our relationship functioning, and that I need to step back and take care of my emotional needs and when you are ready to talk/consider family counseling so that we can have a healthy relationship, then I am here.
My mom has done that with me, and our situation was far from dire. I wasn't using her or anything of the sort but I was making choices she could not take on and just sit back and watch, so she had to detach. My ex's mom had to do the same, she tried to save him more than once with his addiction, but when it became apparent he wasn't interested in fixing his life, only soaking her for money to fix his mistakes, she let him go. She was never cruel or mean she just gently said "I can't do it anymore. It's harming my mental and physical health, and as much as it hurts, I have got to let you go until you can make choices that help rather than hurt."
I can't imagine having to get to that place as a parent but I think being able to is important when it's needed. Kids are always our offspring, but at some point they have to cease being our children and we have to let them make mistakes and learn the hard way if that is what they are intent on doing.

wrathfuldeity

Kids are kids until they have kids...at least I was that way; and not til I hit my 30's and had my own kids did I really understand and began to view my parents as adults and just individuals.

On another note...."how can you understand my words if you don't understand my silence" ...just being with another person in silence is powerful communication.

karasti

@wrathfuldeity so true. I was telling a friend tonight (who has a teenage daughter) that it took a long time to get from "man, my parents are IDIOTS" to "wow, was I an idiot."

federica

SillyPutty:

First of all, a quotation I learnt when I was young was:
You cannot criticise a man for three things:

His driving
His kids
His mother.

The fact that this person's difficult relatives are their children, is a minefield to negotiate.

First of all, show your friend this link.

(Read it, it's fascinating).
Obvioulsy, I don't know how old the kids are, but if they're under 26, they still ahve some fine tuning to go through...

Secondly, instead of looking at it from the PoV of their behaviour, look at it from the PoV of her reaction.

How it affects her.

Teach her 'the Lighthouse' analogy.

Imagine a lighthouse, far out from the shore, on a rocky promontory; The lighthouse is completely surrounded by water, and this water is never the same, in appearance, two days running; there may be wild storms, high winds, calm, mill-pond, hazy summer days, deep, sullen, black, turbulent nights, high seas, low fogs, blizzards, tempests and waves, twenty feet high, rising majestically and crashing against the rocks, sending blinding salt-heavy spray up and over the top beacon.

Yet, look.... the lighthouse is still; imperturbable, solid, motionless and steady.... it continues to shine, calmly, reliably, no matter what the elements may bring.

And so, like this lighthouse, we should be.
Knocked and buffeted by whatever surrounds us, comes at us or rises to impede us.
We simply endure, accept, and 'rise above' it all.....

Help her understand that half her problem is how she permits such behaviour to impact her.

Ask her to imagine they are NOT her children, for an instant.
Ask her to imagine that they are more distant to her emotionally, than at present.
Then ask her, if this was happening to someone else - what would SHE advise?

SillyPutty

wrathfuldeity said:

Kids are kids until they have kids...

They actually have their own families. Each child has two children of their own (one is married, one is not but lives with her "babies' daddy"). But they are still very young and operate from a very egocentric attitude (i.e. "You owe me simply because I exist."). And the other one is more self-reliant, however they are always painting my friend out to be a horrible person to other family members, lying constantly about why there is little-to-no contact between them (i.e. this child loves to use the phrase "the phone works both ways" yet is always avoiding my friend and claiming my friend never tries to reach out to them). It's just really sick and frustrating to watch.

SillyPutty

federica said:

Ask her to imagine they are NOT her children, for an instant.
Ask her to imagine that they are more distant to her emotionally, than at present.
Then ask her, if this was happening to someone else - what would SHE advise?

Excellent, @federica. Thank you.

(And FYI, since some of you are wondering, both children are in their 20's, which by most peoples' standards, is still very young nowadays and still considered children, I guess.)

federica

Yes - this 'adult at 21' crud is just a convenient figure-cum-milestone many countries put onto people in order to at least bestow some mean equal yardstick of social maturity'.

In fact, mental maturity isn't firmly established until the :LATE 20's. I distinctly remember feeling I'd arrived at some significant moment of personal 'maturity' at around 30, tbh....

aMatt

@sillyputty,

One of my teachers approached a similar question like this: if we are experiencing our own agitation when observing others' suffering, then we are not in a position to offer them authentic nourishment. He then challenged me to consider the teaching power of painful experiences... and how when we are inspired to help, it isn't to prevent the pain, but to help them relate to their experience more clearly.

Said differently, we might wish to jump in and stop them from burning their hand on a stove, and for children that is fine. For adults, they will burn their hand again and again until they learn to use the stove. Jumping in with "stop" does not help them with that.

With warmth,
Matt

SillyPutty

aMatt said:

@sillyputty,

One of my teachers approached a similar question like this: if we are experiencing our own agitation when observing others' suffering, then we are not in a position to offer them authentic nourishment. He then challenged me to consider the teaching power of painful experiences... and how when we are inspired to help, it isn't to prevent the pain, but to help them relate to their experience more clearly.

Said differently, we might wish to jump in and stop them from burning their hand on a stove, and for children that is fine. For adults, they will burn their hand again and again until they learn to use the stove. Jumping in with "stop" does not help them with that.

With warmth,
Matt

You are like one of my favorite posters, @aMatt. Every time you post a reply, it's like a little bell goes off in my mind and things click. Can you come live with me for the next few years and teach me your ways, Yoda? :dunce:

Thanks.

SillyPutty

In the same vein, I'm in the middle of watching this recently posted video on YouTube:



Just thought I'd post it since we're kinda talking about the same thing, here.

aMatt

The click is your click, not mine. See the aMatt, kill the aMatt (preferring metaphorically). Thanks for the kind words, though!

pegembara

This advice works too.

"Imagine you’re rowing a boat on a foggy lake, and out of the fog comes another boat that crashes into you! At first you’re angry at the fool who crashed into you — what was he thinking! You just painted the boat. But then you notice the boat is empty, and the anger leaves … you’ll have to repaint the boat, that’s all, and you just row around the empty boat. But if there were a person steering the boat, we’d be angry!

Here’s the thing: the boat is always empty. Whenever we interact with other people who might “do something to us” (be rude, ignore us, be too demanding, break our favorite coffee cup, etc.), we’re bumping into an empty boat. We just think there’s some fool in that boat who should have known better, but really it’s just a boat bumping into us, no harm intended by the boat.

That’s a hard lesson to learn, because we tend to imbue the actions of others with a story of their intentions, and how they should have acted instead. We think they’re out to get us, or they should base their lives around being considerate to us and not offending us. But really they’re just doing their thing, without bad intent, and the boat just happens to bump into us.

When we see things with this lens, they suddenly become emptied of anger and stress. Our boss was rude? Empty boat, just respond appropriately, don’t imbue with a story. Kid throws a tantrum? Empty boat, just breathe and find the appropriate, non-angry response.

This is detachment. It’s seeing the actions and words of others as just phenomena happening outside of us, like a leaf falling or the wind blowing. We don’t get angry at the wind for blowing, and yet the blowing does affect us. Let the actions of your kid be the wind blowing — you just need to find an appropriate response, rather than being stressed that this phenomenon is happening.

So when your kid is doing something other than what you’d like, let go of that desired outcome that’s stressing you out, and let go of the story you’ve imbued into their actions. Just think, “Empty boat, wind blowing.”

And then give them a hug. Let love guide your actions. Teach, don’t control. Set an example of how they should behave with your compassionate response. They’re watching you, not listening to your words, and that’s how they learn".


Charlotte Beck

karasti

@SillyPutty Just a question after reading some of your follow up response. Do you interact with the children of your friend and the other relatives? Or is all the information you have about the situation coming only from your friend?
If it is the latter, it helps to remember that there are 2 sides to every story, and the truth is somewhere in the middle, most of the time. Just because someone is feeling and perceiving one way doesn't always make it the truth.

My sister, who is 34, is extremely emotionally sensitive. She and my dad have a long and difficult history. My dad, however, has made many, many strides in improving things, but he has a lot of difficulty with social situations, and always has. One of his ways to cope with that is to joke his way around social situations. Not long ago, my sister called my dad on his cell phone. He happened to be driving and in his mind, was joking when he answered the phone "What are you doing calling me when I'm driving?" and she was so upset because she took him seriously that she hung up and has not spoken to him since.

My dad's point of view: Your sister has been really quiet. I'm not sure what is up with her? She's always acting this way, she never calls, doesn't respond when I call her. I just don't understand her!!
My sister's point of view: Dad is a jackass, and was horribly rude and mean to me when I called him, so screw him, I'm not talking to him.

Neither is willing to see their wrong in the situation, and my dad needs my sister to explain it to him, and she refuses.

aMatt

pegembara said:

"Imagine you’re rowing a boat on a foggy lake, and out of the fog comes another boat that crashes into you! At first you’re angry at the fool who crashed into you — what was he thinking! You just painted the boat. But then you notice the boat is empty, and the anger leaves … you’ll have to repaint the boat, that’s all, and you just row around the empty boat. But if there were a person steering the boat, we’d be angry!

Charlotte Beck

I love this! I can't tell you how many times I've been agitated at an empty boat, or the wind, or the rain... broke into a giggling fit after this description of anatta.

With warmth,
Matt

Dakini

Is it true, necessary, and kind from whose perspective? From the perspective of the ones being cruel, your words would be viewed as unkind, unnecessary as possibly untrue. But from the victim's perspective, the same words would be viewed as very kind toward him/her, helpful and truthful. If someone is being bullied, it would be "wrong speech" to remain silent. There's a teaching by the Buddha that illustrates that (I'll try to find it). Speaking the truth in the face of wrong-doing is right speech. Silence in such a situation could be interpreted by the wrong-doers as tacit approval.

SillyPutty

karasti said:

@SillyPutty Just a question after reading some of your follow up response. Do you interact with the children of your friend and the other relatives? Or is all the information you have about the situation coming only from your friend?

Yes, I have many a'time. My description of their "not so good" traits are pretty accurate by societal standards.

SillyPutty

Thanks, @pegembara, that was an awesome post. Helped a lot.

pegembara said:

This advice works too.

We think they’re out to get us, or they should base their lives around being considerate to us and not offending us.

Well, that's part of my neurosis right now. I'm going to go off on a mini rant here, because maybe it can help illustrate why, sometimes, I tend to freak out and jump to conclusions and get very offended and hyper vigilant with people on here (and in life) when I *think* I'm being attacked or bullied.

First of all, I've been bullied and abused greatly by people all of my life-- especially by my own family. But the straw that broke the camel's back was about 8 years ago, when something really horrible (at least in my mind it was) happened to me where I was insanely bullied (by adults, nonetheless!) to the point of a breakdown. It was literally a conspiracy theory. When I tell people the story (and only bits and pieces, b/c it's hard for me to talk about it without becoming extremely upset), they think I'm making it up, or that I "did" something to provoke it. I honestly didn't do anything to warrant what I withstood. Nothing.

You see, one person-- a person I called a very good friend-- was very jealous of me. I was warned by my ex that she was, but I ignored him, because I was just so happy to have *a* friend, since growing up I wasn't allowed to socialize (not exaggerating there at all), and my ex-husband didn't like me having any friends either. I worked with this girl (well, I should say woman-- she was over 21), so it was great because I could be friends with her AND work with her. I was loving life and having a great time and feeling freedom I hadn't felt in... well... ever.

Anyhoo... it's a very long, complicated story, but this woman literally headed a mob of people against me at both work and school (she knew people at my school as well, ironically enough) and basically this weird psychological mob mentality occurred where these people tortured me for about a year at both work and school. I won't go into it much more because every time I do I end up getting very angry and depressed all over again and relive it, so I'll stop there. But it wasn't just mind games, either. There were criminal acts going on as well against me. If I told you the details you wouldn't even believe what happened happened. These people literally were out to get me. I remember one of them even said to my face one day that she wished I'd just kill myself (fully knowing I was starting to become super depressed and suicidal at that point). Mind you, I did nothing to her. They all just fed off of one another's anger and gossip and jealousy, which was all started by this one woman who was supposedly my good friend.

So anyway, I basically lost everything you could possibly imagine to lose during this mobbing. Combine that with a messed up childhood as well, I'm just VERY on edge and VERY cautious about people. If I think you're being a [bleep] and I sense any tiny bit of you playing games with me or trying to hurt me, I will most likely cut you off and stay far away from you, or jump down your throat and tell you off. I have a very hard time finding a balance, which is why I'm trying so hard to really put the dharma into practice and be aware of my actions/thoughts. I know it's not healthy and for the past 8 years it hasn't made me any better being this on edge, so I'm honestly trying to not act from a delusional mind.

However, I still have a really hard time keeping my mouth shut when I see someone I care about being used/abused. I just don't like it and it's hard for me not to help them avoid what I went through. I know it's not my job to save someone from their own karma (someone already made the point of the "hot stove" analogy on this thread I think), but when I remember how I literally cried and slept for months on end due to the depression I experienced... I just never want to feel that way again nor have anyone else. It's horrible. Funny thing is, I wouldn't even wish what happened to me on the people who did it to me-- it was horrendous. And I'm still trying to pick up the pieces 8 years later.

So, yeah. It's extremely hard for me right now to see that boat as "being empty." Unless you have been in a situation where you had ZERO supports in your life and were bullied everywhere you turned in a very violent manner (work, school, home, family), and literally had no one to help you, you really think humanity is inherently evil and people suck and not to trust them. I could understand if I had done something to provoke the hatred and mobbing... I could understand if I had done something just as nasty to all of them as they did to me (we're talking about 20 people involved in this...), but I never did. I was a target because I was nice, sweet, happy, and had the word "VICTIM" tattooed across my head. But now... now at least I can say it was "karma" and I deserved it in some fashion. Because if I had done to someone in a past life what these people did to me in this life? I deserved every second of it and I'm deeply sorry for ever hurting anyone the way these people hurt and destroyed me.

Okay... sorry... but I had to get that off of my chest. Thanks for reading. And, again, I will try my best to take all of your advice to heart. Like I said, I'm really trying (erm, "doing"). My only goal in life is to wake up each morning and be the best person I can and help others if possible. If I can do that, I've had a really good day.

wrathfuldeity

@SillyPutty wut u learnin from yo karma? U chose your tormentors and agreed that they would be the best teachers for you...(just saying its a perspective).

SillyPutty

wrathfuldeity said:

@SillyPutty wut u learnin from yo karma? U chose your tormentors and agreed that they would be the best teachers for you...(just saying its a perspective).

Exactly. I came to a point where I semi (can't say fully yet, b/c I still feel a lot of pain from it) appreciate what happened. I understand they were my teachers and for that I am thankful. But I obviously haven't learned the lesson fully yet, because I still have a lot of anger and sadness over it. So that's what I've been working on... slowly but surely I'm getting there. But, yes, I agree with you. I am trying my best to really learn what they taught me, because otherwise it will have been all for naught... just pain felt instead of a lesson learned. And thus why I have a hard time not seeing anyone in the boat. I take things very personally. Didn't used to. But I'm still always on my toes and it's a very exhausting thing to do and I just don't want to have to feel like I have to do it anymore... but I also don't want to go through anything like that again. I need to find a balance on how to deal with situations like that. If I had known how to stand up for myself in the beginning, they wouldn't have kept doing what they did (most likely).

karasti

@SillyPutty *hugs* I really appreciate you sharing that, it helps me see your perspective and know where to be cautious in my choice of words. FWIW, I know we don't always agree but I promise I'm never playing games or trying to hurt you.
Perhaps part of the reason you went through what you did is so that you can help others in similar situations. During those times, just having someone there probably would have made a huge difference, and I'm sure your friend feels the same and is grateful to have you. I'm sorry you went through such a horrible time, but I'm glad you made it through and that you're here

SillyPutty

karasti said:

@SillyPutty *hugs* I really appreciate you sharing that, it helps me see your perspective and know where to be cautious in my choice of words. FWIW, I know we don't always agree but I promise I'm never playing games or trying to hurt you.
Perhaps part of the reason you went through what you did is so that you can help others in similar situations. During those times, just having someone there probably would have made a huge difference, and I'm sure your friend feels the same and is grateful to have you. I'm sorry you went through such a horrible time, but I'm glad you made it through and that you're here

Thanks. That means a lot. And of course you understand that that is my round about way of apologizing once again to anyone I may have offended/yelled at on this board.

But I wish I hadn't brought it up because now I'm crying. I hate thinking about it or talking about it. It really messed me up bad. I keep joking to my shrink that I should just get a frontal lobotomy, but I was told that that wasn't the right part of the brain to deal with that sorta issue, so there goes that dream.

wrathfuldeity

SillyPutty....may I humbly suggest you become a warrior princess...like Zena

SillyPutty

wrathfuldeity said:

SillyPutty....may I humbly suggest you become a warrior princess...like Zena

That made me literally LOL, WD. Thanks for the chuckle. Truth be known my real passion was always to recover cursed antiques like in Friday the 13th: The Series. You don't have to workout as much for that role and you still keep the bullies at bay.

EDIT: Now I'm laughing even more. Never saw a Xena episdoe before, so I wikipedia-ed it. I saw this line:

Xena is on a quest to seek redemption for her past sins as a ruthless warlord by using her formidable fighting skills to help people.

Even funnier now that I actually get the joke. Thanks again.

wrathfuldeity

Actually being half way serious. I think girls/women need a physical outlet for anger, aggression and etc ...helps to work things out. A lot of people, including my 3 kids (older boys, one did hockey and the other MMA) all felt and did better after beating them selves up. My youngest, she is a tuffy and has become a very aggressive snowboarder/skier/downhill mt biker/free climber and loves the rush of challenging herself...and she is a very open, giving, sweet and wonderful...BullDog...Taurus born in the year of the dog...but won't take s@#%t from those who might take advantage of her...she even chased out a 6'2" thief that broke into the house while she was at home...she's 5'2" and maybe 125#.

karasti

I agree, and it adds such a degree of confidence to know you can do some of those things, wheveever you might be interested. We have a heavy bag in our basement and I go beat the crap out of it sometimes. Not even out of anger, just out of focus and self-power. It's good to feel in control and not like a fish on a hook being reeled all over the place.

SillyPutty

wrathfuldeity said:

Actually being half way serious. I think girls/women need a physical outlet for anger, aggression and etc ...helps to work things out. A lot of people, including my 3 kids (older boys, one did hockey and the other MMA) all felt and did better after beating them selves up. My youngest, she is a tuffy and has become a very aggressive snowboarder/skier/downhill mt biker/free climber and loves the rush of challenging herself...and she is a very open, giving, sweet and wonderful...BullDog...Taurus born in the year of the dog...but won't take s@#%t from those who might take advantage of her...she even chased out a 6'2" thief that broke into the house while she was at home...she's 5'2" and maybe 125#.

Hahaha! That's awesome! Those are some super diesel kids you have there! I think your suggestion is a great idea, but (here it comes) I do have some issues with intense aerobic activity (anything more than walking or light biking). Not trying to make any excuses b/c I actually love exercising... I actually started running and biking again 2 weeks ago and had to stop. I have something really messed up with my hormones/thyroid/whatever where I think I build up a lot of excess testosterone when I do a lot of intense, "aggressive" activity to the point my hair starts falling out. No lie. I've had this problem ever since I was 20 and had to have my gallbladder out due to a horrible starvation diet I put my body through. So now I think there's something whacky that happened physiologically with my body that any little bit of stress/change causes havoc. Which sucks because I have a lot of weight I have to lose. My ex-husband used to say, "Well, what's worse: being bald or being fat?" Ummm... BOTH! Hahahaha. But yeah... as soon as I stopped running/biking, my hair stopped shedding. It's very strange. I don't know why it happens. It's frustrating as all hell, though, because I know I could easily drop my weight if my body didn't freak out so much from the activity. If anyone knows why my hair immediately starts shedding every time I exercise hard, please let me know... because I love to exercise but I also love having hair on my head. (Actually, when I went through all that stress that I talked about above, my hair was shedding a lot then, too, from the stress of it all. I went to an endocrinologist even and he said it was from stress. I'm just a super sensitive person in all ways I guess. But back then I didn't tell him about the intense exercising issue, so maybe there is something that was missed....)

But yes... great suggestions. I find my depression lifts when I am more active, too. But for now until I can figure out why my hair hates me burning fat, I have to stick to light activity like walking... which sucks... because I'm born to run, baby! Used to run when I was a teenager/20's and I miss doing it so much.

wrathfuldeity

Have you ever done a sensory deprivation/flotation/REST tank? They can be wonderful tools for stress related malaise; and imho they are great meditation environments...did my graduate research dry-floating folks for 6 hours.

riverflow

wrathfuldeity said:

Have you ever done a sensory deprivation/flotation/REST tank? They can be wonderful tools for stress related malaise; and imho they are great meditation environments...did my graduate research dry-floating folks for 6 hours.

@SillyPutty - Just don't come running out into the streets looking like some crazy ape-woman!!!! (if you don't know the movie reference, I apologize!)

Dakini

@SillyPutty We had someone here who started several threads about bullying, and the need to speak out against bullies. She mentioned workplace bullying, but at the time, I'd never heard about mobbing, and had no idea she might be discussing something so serious. It's crucial to act in a situation like that, in some way. If it isn't safe to speak out in front of the bullies, go behind the scenes to alert upper management. If that's not possible, at least befriend the victim and help give them strength. There are a variety of ways to act compassionately in such a situation, but it's important to be what we call "skilfull" about it, so as not to cause more problems.

As to your health issues: imo you have problems with your adrenal glands. They secrete cortisol under stress, which causes you to gain weight. They can become hypersensitive, and produce adrenalin at the drop of a hat, which can make you hyper, and leave you frazzled, or eventually, fatigued. And they also produce testosterone. Also, when the adrenals get depleted, that can throw the thyroid out of whack.

In my experience, it's hard to find an endocrinologist who is trained to help patients with adrenal issues. If you found one, stick with him. Otherwise, you may have to look outside the medical insurance system, for a doctor who practices independently, and handles tricky cases like yours. In the meantime, do self-care, like get a massage a couple of times/month. This calms the system, and turns off the stress hormones. Take baths, if that helps relax you--get a good soak. Keep normal bedtime hours, don't deprive yourself of sleep. Listen to soothing music. Be good to yourself. But do find a doc to run some tests and hopefully figure out where to go from there. Oh, and acupuncture can help calm the adrenals and reset them from chronic stress mode to a more normal function. PM me if you want more info.

karasti

Have you ever had someone evaluate your diet? Most people with the problem it comes from a combination too heavy exercise (too long, too often) and a not-quite-right diet. It might be worth it to have it evaluated by a sports doctor if you can or even a naturopath(though specify you want to fix through food or some will try to cell you a million supplements that cost a fortune). Most hormonal problems can be corrected by an antiimflammatory diet and stress control. Even though exercise is touted as a great stress reliever, and it is, the actual act of physical exertion causes the excretion of stress hormones and inflammation. You might find some relief in having strongly antioxidant and antiinflammatory foods before and after you exercise. At what point does it start to happen? Can you go for walks and mix in a little light jogging? Can you do light exercise that isn't so stressful? Even that can help, mowing the lawn, and so on. It doesn't have to be pedal to the metal exercise to matter

lobster

My only goal in life is to wake up each morning and be the best person I can and help others if possible. If I can do that, I've had a really good day.

You are not the best person you are? Sure you are. Job done.

You can not help others by providing a victim, being a fluffy bunny (or however you wish to describe the ’nicest person in the world' syndrome).

Does your pain make others happy?
Let us share the pain . . .

Do you ever call up people who wish you to be unpleasant to them and provide this service?

It is possible to help me. So I hope you will. You could start a thread called, 'I am Zena' or similar and be frankly, frank.

Rather than self depreciating, we will try to be honest.

Listen and learn. I'll start:

'I am Zena, You are not a fairy godmother.'

Too harsh? Too judgemental?

OK try this:

'I am Zen A, what are you going to B?'

Too clever? Too [insert judgement]?

HELP! :aol: 'I am Zena, get used to it'

Straight_Man

Um, when you get lobster somewhat on edge, watch out. She "likes" to joke her way out of it, in a Zenish way!

I think you will find that federica and jason and lincoln and brian will not let mobbing work here, so you have a refuge. I won't let mobbing work here if I can help it either. But do not ask me to be your hero please, I might do it then run and hide.

John.

SillyPutty

Dakini said:

If it isn't safe to speak out in front of the bullies, go behind the scenes to alert upper management.

Oh, that's where it gets good. Upper management was in on it, and as for my school, there was issues there as well. To put it bluntly, one of the many issues going on was that my program director was sexually harassing me. He even had the audacity to tell me he could take my "A" away-- that I earned through my hard work-- if I didn't give him oral sex... which of course I didn't, which led to more harassment from him and some of his favorite students. Everyone was basically just kicking me while I was down over and over again. There's just so much more to this story... it's so unbelievably insane and complicated.... the bullying/harassment/mobbing from everyone was just disgusting and so ugly in every way possible. From property damage to computer stalking to threats to harassment to severe mind games to you name it. And no one ever got caught. Although, perhaps we could contend that karma catches everyone eventually, right? Maybe. Maybe not.

So the "upper management" people in this instance were of little-to-no help and part of the problem, actually. Going to them (this included professors who were too terrified for their jobs to stand up to the program director) for help was probably the worst thing I did. A case of very sick people abusing their power and reveling in it as well. I was just attacked on all sides. No one could help me and when I tried to go for help no one did. It only put me more at risk for the wolves surrounding me. Thus why I have a hard time trusting anyone for a long time, really. As far as I was concerned, everyone was literally out to get me and make my life miserable on all accounts.

Dakini said:

As to your health issues: imo you have problems with your adrenal glands. They secrete cortisol under stress, which causes you to gain weight.

Thank you for this. I've actually thought it could be this as well. I used to be sooooo extremely tired all of the time. And the weight always hovers around my midsection and I can't stand it (which I know is another symptom of adrenal fatigue). Like, when I was working a rather stressful 9-5 job before, I could not fathom how people could get through a day without at least 10 hours of sleep and lots of carbs. I was constantly exhausted and hungry and felt like such a failure because I couldn't keep up with the rest of the world. I used to go monthly to a massage therapist, actually, and she said it could be adrenal fatigue as well. Right around that time I had developed a kidney stone that I had to get removed via a lithotripsy (it was rather large and jagged, causing infection). I would probably still feel the same way but my daily schedule is so low-stress now that I don't seem to have this issue anymore, although I still feel like if I do too much of anything I'm ready for bed again.

Dakini said:

In the meantime, do self-care,

PM me if you want more info.

Thanks, Dakini. I will. I've been really trying to take time out for myself over the past year now and heal. It's just very hard because I think I've done so much damage to my body (and mind) it's like I'm always taking 2 steps forward and 1 step backwards. Just when I think I have a good routine developed, it ends up not working out well at all. Just feel very frustrated that I cannot get my body, mind, and spirit in working order.

SillyPutty

karasti said:

Even though exercise is touted as a great stress reliever, and it is, the actual act of physical exertion causes the excretion of stress hormones and inflammation. You might find some relief in having strongly antioxidant and antiinflammatory foods before and after you exercise.

That makes a lot of sense and is quite helpful to know. Thanks, karasti. I actually started to do this "Candida" detox diet a few weeks back, but I had to stop it because the symptoms just became overwhelmingly hard for me to handle. I read the symptoms of a Candida overgrowth in the body and everything that we talked about here seemed to echo a Candida problem so I thought, "Hey, why not?" It was working well but I had to put it on hold. It was very hard on my body, even with the supplements I was taking in order to make the die-off symptoms not as uncomfortable. But I guess I will look int the anti-inflammatory foods like you suggested. I do have mild psoriasis so that type of diet will benefit me, like the Candida one. I thought the Candida one would be the ticket to good health because I have food sensitivities to everything under the sun (i.e. Leaky gut syndrome) but I'm not sure my organs can handle the severe detoxing right now. Probably put more stress on my adrenals and kidneys than should have.

karasti said:

At what point does it start to happen?

Well, gentlemen cover your eyes, but it happened when I started to menstruate last week. I know it was hormonally related because I was also getting cold sweats on my chest when I was sleeping. I was actually waiting for the hair to start falling out... took some time... I was surprised it didn't start falling out sooner, but like I mentioned above I was doing this Candida detox so I figured that the diet was helping to keep something in balance that normally wouldn't be in balance when I'd exercise. But then my period came and the hair just came out in clumps in the shower, along with the mood swings and the hot flashes. About 2 days after I stopped running/biking-- as per usual-- the hair stopped falling out. It always does this. I think my period helped it along this time around, but usually about 4-5 days after starting an intense exercise regime it starts falling out... but this time it didn't start falling out until a few days later when my period started.

karasti said:

Can you go for walks and mix in a little light jogging? Can you do light exercise that isn't so stressful? Even that can help, mowing the lawn, and so on. It doesn't have to be pedal to the metal exercise to matter

Yeah, that's what I'm aiming for. Just light walking. But again, it's so hard to lose the weight by just walking. Even if I eat the calories I'm supposed to eat during the day, it's like my metabolism is shot. Something really got messed up from all the years of stress and dieting I guess. I dunno.

Dakini

Food sensitivities can be taken care of via a treatment called NAET (an allergy elimination technique, non-medical. It's energetic, like acupuncture, but no needles). Google it + your city or region to find a practitioner near you. I had malabsorption of nutrients and some food sensitivities after years of adrenal problems. The NAET took care of everything.

P.S. I've only recently heard of this kind of mobbing. So it really is real, good to know. Though sad, and kind of scary.

Your school had no ombudsman for sexual harassment? What about the Dean that your prog. supervisor was answerable to?

SillyPutty

Dakini said:

Food sensitivities can be taken care of via a treatment called NAET (an allergy elimination technique, non-medical. It's energetic, like acupuncture, but no needles). Google it + your city or region to find a practitioner near you. I had malabsorption of nutrients and some food sensitivities after years of adrenal problems. The NAET took care of everything.

Really? Awesome! I'm going to look into it right now. I'm desperate. I'll try anything at this point. Thanks!

SillyPutty

Just googled it... kinda makes me wish I still lived where I used to... there's one that specializes in it that would have been like a 10 minute drive. Hahaha. Well, I'll keep looking. There's not much around me within a 50 mile radius... only 3 show up, and they're a pretty long drive away. But if it doesn't involve too many sessions, it's worth the trips. Could you please PM me, @Dakini, of what you actually did and the process of it all? I know I can google it, but I'd rather read your 1st person experience if you don't mind telling me, that is. Thanks.

Dakini

If you have a lot of food sensitivities and leaky gut, it'll take a lot of sessions. You could at least get started, and see how you like it. There's another similar one called BioSet. Google the BioSet Institute in Mill Valley, for a list of practitioners. They're not as numerous as NAET people, but it's worth a try.

SillyPutty

Dakini said:

Google the BioSet Institute in Mill Valley

Appears their website is down. Wonder if they are still operational, or it's just a brief server issue?

Dakini

They're still operational. Must be a server issue. Odd. Try this. See "site map". There's a practitioner directory. Ellen Cutler founded the BioSet Institute.

http://www.drellencutler.com/pages/contact/

karasti

Even if it's been a long time, issues with the body are fixable. It just takes figuring out the combination that works for you that is the really hard part, and frustrating! It'll come. I think a lot of people find as they get older they start suffering with things and they chalk it up to getting older, as if it's an expected thing we just have to deal with. But it's not, a lot of it comes from years and years of build up of consuming chemicals and bad foods. But it can be reversed, even in the really tough cases. Keep at it, eat lots of fresh, living food if you can. Summer is a great time for that because of farmer's markets, the sooner you can eat the food after it was picked, the more of it's nutrients it retains. Best wishes to you, I hope you find a solution.

federica

Straight_Man said:

...
I think you will find that federica and jason and lincoln and brian will not let mobbing work here, so you have a refuge. I won't let mobbing work here if I can help it either. But do not ask me to be your hero please, I might do it then run and hide.

John.

You're damn right we won't.
One click on the 'Flag' icon and we're down on it quicker than you can say "whut dafuq!?"

SillyPutty

federica said:

You're damn right we won't.
One click on the 'Flag' icon and we're down on it quicker than you can say "whut dafuq!?"

Hahaha... thanks, @federica. Also, thanks, @Straight_Man and @lobster, as well (just saw your posts). Like I said, before I used to be a doormat incarnate. Now due to everything that has happened, I run the opposite side of spectrum and am ready to put on my boxing gloves at the first sign of trouble (or perceived trouble, even). I just need to find the middle way... need to learn how to be assertive, not passive and not aggressive.

I'll never understand why people bully/harass one another or get sucked into the mobbing phenomenon. Never in my life have I felt like I just wanted to randomly hurt someone just to see them in pain, or join in a "witch hunt" so to speak. Or gossip. I *despise* gossip. I just don't get it. I'm not perfect, though... come to think of it... in high school I did make fun of a girl who used to be my friend because I was hurt that she was using me. It was wrong what I did to her, and every time I think about what happened to me 8 years ago, I wonder, "Did I hurt her that bad by my words and actions? How awful if I did, because I honestly never would want to hurt anyone like that. Could what happened to me be karmic retribution?" I think about her a lot and genuinely hope that she's okay and that what I did to her didn't affect her as horribly as I fear it may have, come to think of it. I really should have known better, having been bullied and made fun of ever since I could remember due to my weight. So for that, sometimes I wonder if this was my payback. If so, like I've said before, I definitely deserved what happened to me and embrace that karma (lesson learned!).

But other than that? I've always just wanted to help and be nice to others. I think my "people pleasing" attitude has a lot to do with it. My therapist is always pointing out to me (especially today) how I have lived for other people and have always done what they expected me to do for them. Every time she asks me, "But what do you want to do with your life? What have you always wanted to do?" I just shrug my shoulders. Of course when I was younger I had the childhood delusion of being a writer or a director or something else far-fetching that really isn't practical in nature, other than to serve as a hobby of sorts. I never really possessed a passion for anything, other to just "help" in general (i.e. animals, people, the environment). And for the life of me I can't understand how I always attract people who want to take advantage of my kindness and hurt me for it. Even if I saw those people who hurt me on the street and they were in pain, I'd offer them help. That's just how I am. And I'd probably get stabbed in the back later for it, too. But I'd still do it knowing that, and that's the problem. I just don't know where to draw the line of being a sucker and being compassionate to them and myself.

lobster

I just need to find the middle way...

Indeed.
Had leaky gut/candida.

Not fun. Basically was heading for chronic illness.

I started with diet. Garlic and zero sugar was the best for me. I cut out tea, coffee and did everything advised. I was in really bad shape. Eventually had the energy to do yoga and Qi Ong/Tai Chi. I probably would have done Medicine Buddha practice if I had known about it.

Some ideas you might find useful:
Think of the Mind/Body as a whole. Sometimes the dis-ease in the body is 'protecting' the mind and vice versa.

Getting sick and well is part of an unraveling. :clap:

And for the life of me I can't understand how I always attract people who want to take advantage of my kindness and hurt me for it.

I can.
It is not healthy either for them or you.
Learning Tai Chi push hands/a soft combat art, would be beneficial.

Remember you are protected here by Frederica, the good will and sacred space provided.

The best way to describe what is happening in terms of the attraction of unkindness . . . m m m . . . very basically one should not wear a sign saying whatever 'good or bad comes my way, I will be nice'. Not really how the world operates, it CAN if not done right, bring out the worst in people . . .

I invited, as others have, negativity, using Tonglen and similar practices. They need to be supervised by a teacher ideally . . .

http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhism/A - Tibetan Buddhism/Authors/Tulku Thubten Rinpoche/Lojong I and II/Tonglen.htm

federica

I am at once proud and humbled by the privilege I have of 'looking after folk' on this here forum, (even if my decisions may not always be universally popular) and I'm grateful for the kindly comments and good reputation - but I do sometimes wish people would get my fracking name right....

lobster

We could call you 'fed up' for short or Erica? No . . .
. . . will try and remember