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Christians can PISS ME OFF
Vagabond
Explorer
When it comes to God, I am an atheist. When it comes to Christianity, I'm an asshole. I can go on and on and on and on about how I absolutely hate people who thump the Bible, I can argue with them and point out a dozen contradictions, I can talk about about how stupid the dogma is, about how people quote Leviticus to say homosexuality is a sin, but then ignore the whole mixed-fabric clothing, or tattoos. I was wondering what you all think of this.
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Comments
And that hating even Bible thumpers will sooner or later cause you suffering.
I suggest you practice metta specifically toward Christians.
I also think that you ' doth protest too much ' and that you have not resolved your own feelings about your exposure to Christianity.
Its very common among some western Buddhists.
Open your Heart and Free your mind and the TRUTH will be presented to you.
What others believe and don't believe is their responsibility, not mine. Whether they are willing to shoulder that responsibility is their business, not mine. While it is true that true believers of any stripe are sometimes enough to piss off the pope, still god did invent television so that we all can watch a nice mindless sitcom instead of getting our knickers in a twist.
I had a hard time with some of the comments from some Christians when we were debating the gay marriage law in my state. But in the end, what it came down to was, I could waste my time telling them how ignorant and unfair they were being and wallow in anger and suffering. Or I could work on what I could to change things in my state. I could communicate with the law makers, I could take part in campaigns. I could talk to people I knew I could have conversations with. It was better to spend the time and positive energy working towards something rather than forcefully work against something. It's mostly true in pretty much anything. Find something to work towards. Work for more peace, more compassion in your life, rather than directing frustration at them. They aren't ready to change and not a single thing you think, feel or say is going to make them. It's just going to make you suffer more.
Though I am myself an ecumenicist, I don't like it when people act and speak as though they or their group has some kind of special dispensation. As for Bible thumping, although steeped in the Christian tradition, I cannot tolerate this citing of chapter and verse by a preacher; chapter is all that one needs. To cite just a verse is to take it entirely out of its context. Talk about simple-mindedness.
True, we should be respectful of the religions of others, but at the same time (as Buddha said somewhere) what could possibly be worse than a man teaching religion who had no understanding of it?
To sum up, I believe that certain pig-headed doctrinaires deserve at least an occasional confrontation with the viewpoints of others. Best to do it with laughter and a smile, though. It may even be Metta practice to engage in this sort of potentially expansive dialogue; of course it won't have immediate consequences (as people are pretty much caught up in their own momentum) but long-term, who knows?
I don't understand why so many other Buddhists seem to have the need to kiss Christianity's feet and sugar coat it so much. Impho there is nothing positive about Christianity from a Buddhist perspective.
Particularly the ones who have either worked through their aversion ( Ajahn Sumedho Ajahn Munindo for example ) or were born into a different culture and so never aquired aversion. ( The Dalai Lama, Sogyal Rinpoche for example ).
Western Buddhism as a rejection of Christianity is a shallow thing with shallow roots.
And no, by "confrontation" I mean confronting reality, not some unpleasant argument. Hence the smiles and some laughter and friendly attitude.
It should be talk about ideas, not positions. Once it's about positions people start taking stances. Keep it friendly. No accusing, demanding or complaining.
Being an asshole toward people who have different viewpoints is not Buddhist compassion. Hating people with a different viewpoint is not Buddhist compassion. Talking about their stupid dogma, while ignoring Buddhist dogma is not wise. And, we have our posters here who (as one of our posters put it a few days ago) "thump, thump, thump" Buddhist dogma with no evidence for its reality...just that it's found in Buddhist scripture. And while I think it's fine to have an open debate with someone about religious views, when you angrily argue with them, you are just doing what they are doing.
I guess I'd also have to ask why are you running into so many people who want to thump, thump, thump to you? The last time that happened to me was at least 20 years ago. And over my whole life (and I'm 64 years old now), I can't remember it happening to me more than a handful of times, and even then it was mostly due to a position in which I placed myself.
As Citta said, "I think that you have experienced only one type of Christian. There are Christians who live lives of deep absorption in contemplation." And, as another poster said above, "other people have the right to follow their own beliefs, their own paths." And we ought to be open to finding the wisdom in their path as we develop our own path. Buddhism doesn't have a monopoly on wisdom.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Living-Buddha-Christ-Thich-Nhat/dp/0712672818/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1378481096&sr=1-1&keywords=living+buddha+living+christ
I think if you know what you're looking for, there's a lot of similarities between Buddhism and Christianity. Christian mystics don't have an idea of God being a He either. The Kingdom of God (is within you) could be Nirvana?
But yes, Bible literalists - such as a JW friend I have - can be annoying. They hold so tightly to their beliefs that it leaves them very little room for debate.
Talking of literalists I once read through a thread on Dharma Wheel where Buddhist literalists seriously put forward the view that there was a giant mountain in the middle of the Universe and that earthquakes were caused by the birth of Buddhas into different realms..because the Pali Canon says so.
The more I study Buddhism, the more I can find the wisdom in Christianity. But unlike Buddhism, which IMO for the most part is pretty straight forward, Christianity is much trickier to learn. You have to read between the lines of the words of fearful men to come to the true meaning of the teachings. And when you can start to do that, you find Christianity and Buddhism are really quite alike. Every religion has negative dogma. Every one. Even Buddhism. Every religion has extremists and fundamentalists who skew things to meet their fears and needs. Even Buddhism. Many of the Christians (who I know at least) who are like the ones you described in the OP are very fearful people. It's really not a pleasant way to live, so it's a good reason to have compassion for them. They are very afraid, for themselves and for their fellow man. I personally think their fear is unfounded most of the time because of what it is based on, but it's fear that is very real to them, and very scary. They need compassion, too.
And a couple weeks ago, I came to the conclusion that it will be good for me to go to at least one soup kitchen with a Christian church in my area. It is actually my old Catholic church from when i was a kid. I am not going to speak about religion, at least I will not try to do so. But I've always wanted to feed the homeless and speak with them, and hear their stories. I could do it with a Food Bank, where there would be no religious people running the thing, but I wanna do it differently. Not only am I interested in the lives and motivations of poor, homeless people, but also the Christians in my area. I think it will be good for me.
will she piss you off?
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/deborah-13-servant-god/
There's even a school of thought that Jesus was a Buddhist monk - that he studied Buddhism in his lost years - but I think that it's only really Buddhists who think this!
BBC Documentary: Jesus was a Buddhist Monk:
My own opinion is that mainstream Christianity could be so much more than what it is today, which is a shame.
Oh, another good book is The Gospel of the Second Coming by Freke and Gandy:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Gospel-Second-Coming-Long-Awaited/dp/1401918395
It's humorous, it's irreverent, but it gives a different view of Christianity as to how it could've been, what happened, and what would Jesus think of it (I think Jesus 'pisses his pants' at what he finds). It's worth a read.
I would just like to add that my A.A. sponsor (my A.A. mentor) is a Christian and he practises compassion big style; I don't know any Buddhists who does as much as this bloke; he's an enigma. He describes God as a tool he uses for change; and that change is to become a more loving and compassionate person. He has never once tried to convert me; all he said was that if I was interested about his 'Higher Power' (God), to just ask him.
I've never asked him.
I am fortunate to have been brought up a not overly devout Christian. I nearly ended up going to a Catholic School, a fate worse than an eternity of incarnations . . .
Fortunately I came across Gnosticism and some remarkable teachings about the time I started Buddhist practice. The essence of mysticism and dharma seemed similar.
I do not often have to talk to Christians, unless they have converted to Buddhism. When I do meet them, they are easy to engage in as humans - not just as 'Christians'.
You may be a little too much of an 'evangelical buddhist' for me . . . I would probably go find sanctuary in the nearest Church . . .
Christ be with you . . .
[Oops]
Buddha be with you . . . :wave:
Do you know Jehovah's Witnesses pay for the 'WatchTowers' they hand out? They are kindly people . . . Maybe you could interest them in Hendrix musical dharma . . .
"No reason to get excited,"
The thief, he kindly spoke
"There are many here among us
Who feel that life is but a joke
But you and I, we've been through that
And this is not our fate
So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late"
I always seek out common ground. That's the place to connect, and even to grow. We can be slaves to negativity or we can develop the courage to find common ground. No one person is ever completely alien to us. If God is love (I John) then the reverse is equally true: love is God. So God is a verb, not a noun. Here lies common ground. There may be differences in certain areas, and they may be insistent on it. But it is possible to connect-- keep honing in on the positive rather than the negative.
Our world need less-- not more-- dotted lines to divide us. Why is it that we don't often let other differences get to us, but when it comes to religion, it gets under many people's skins?
I like the honesty of your subject for the thread: "Christians CAN piss me off." You are at least AWARE of it as a possibility, but not in every single instance. They CAN piss you off, but not always. They CAN piss me off too, but at least if I can recognize my aversion, and where its coming from then I can investigate why I feel it-- it presents me with an opportunity to practice. We should not have aversion to our aversions!
This doesn't mean that we willfully ignore the differences, but true dialogue can only be constructive, not destructive. Maybe the other person can't see that, but if YOU can, then somebody's got to break that ice, to reach out in compassion and recognize the one world that WE share together.
You have too much hate flowing through your veins and this hate will cause you as much suffering as those you project it on, some times more.
You're being an asshole to the wrong people. You realise that all the things pissing you off in Leviticus aren't from Christianity right? The Old Testament is a (sometimes mis)translation of the Torah. So you should be an asshole to Jews instead. Jews take it in their stride. Everyone hates us. So if you need to release some pent up asshattery, come at me instead, I'm used to it
On the whole Christians are most good people, usually harmless but do have the occasional clusterf**k of assholes. And that's ok, because so do Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and atheists.
All jesting aside though, as was mentioned above, you really DO have to stop transferrance of anger onto others because of your narrow box of experience of Christianity growing up. The anger won't hurt anyone else but you, prevent good merit karmically and prolong the cycle of samsara. I don't personally know you, but I have grown fond of this site and its members and I'd hate to see you suffer.
In metta,
Raven
PS - I was serious about venting at me though. I can handle it (oh yeah, did I mention Jews are stubborn too?
I'm no expert, but I believe it's called altruism. It's something the Buddha exhorted so maybe we should stop worrying about others and follow the Buddha's teachings, yes?
but then I am not anyone . . .
:-/
The teachings of Buddha and the teachings of Christ are quite parallel. It has nothing to do with the dogmas and details of either of the religions taken as a whole.
There is a lot more within Buddhism than Buddha's teachings, although most will agree what he actually taught is what is the foundation, and the most important. It is the same with Christ's teachings and Christianity. Yes, there are fundamental difference in Buddhism and Christianity. But the foundation as far as a good way to live life, is pretty much the same.