Who wants to be a monk?

footiam

I have always heard this question: Who wants to be a millionaire? Now, I wonder who wants to be a monk? And what kind of monk would you be? Perhaps, there ought to be some special characteristics in a monk. You'd notwant to have a grim, boring monk perhaps!

genkaku

I once asked my Zen teacher, the abbot of a monastery in Japan, what he would like to do if he weren't a monk. His face lit up with the same sort of child-like delight anyone displays when asked what their dreams are. What he would do, he said, was to run a noodle parlor: The work was easy, the mark-up was terrific, and all the customers went away satisfied.

Sabre

Can I use a lifeline?

I want to become a monk and will leave my current life soon. But to me becoming a monk is not about thinking in terms of what kind of monk you want to be, or developing certain desired characteristics. To me that's the way 'lay life' thinks: of becoming, changing into some desired person. But to be a monk is more about being in the present and even being allowed to 'not be'. Not to have to be some specific person. Not to have to hide behind some picture others should have of you.

Chaz

I don't want to be a monk. I know how monks live and while it's not "bad", it's still not a lifestyle I want to lead. I'm way too selfish and am quite attached to my carnal needs as well as materialistic tendencies.

On top of that I don't really need to be a monk to practice the dharma.

If I don't have a pressing need for robes and don't see myself as cut out to take them, I have no desire to waste my time.

If I was to become a monk I would like to be just like Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche. I want to drink good scotch, smoke kind bud, and screw my brains loose with a lot of different women .................. and be the most realized MF'er in the monastery. OM BWA HA HA HO SVAHA

vinlyn

Good post, @Chaz, although I'm not sure "selfish" is the right context. Maybe I'd simply choose the word "worldly".

ZendoLord84

I don't want to be a monk...
For me the greatest deeds of good, peace and tranquility that can be found are hidden in ordinary life.

Invincible_summer

I really wanted to at one point in my life, but now I don't really care if it happens or not.

seeker242

I would be a zen master monk and hit you with a stick every day.

jll

me, the enlightened kind who believes in reincarnation.

how

Wants are endless.
Being what you really are, monk or layman, is the difference between being awake and snoozing in a practice.

TheEccentric

jll said:

me, the enlightened kind who believes in reincarnation.

The Buddha was enlightened and did not believe in reincarnation, he believed in Rebirth.

federica

I for one have never wanted to be a Monk.

Kundo

TheEccentric said:

jll said:

me, the enlightened kind who believes in reincarnation.

The Buddha was enlightened and did not believe in reincarnation, he believed in Rebirth.

Lots of people interchange the words rebirth and reincarnation.

I too have never wanted to be a monk, but I would LOVE a week to myself to live in silence with no technology around to interfere.

In metta,
Raven

Chaz

dhammachick said:

I would LOVE a week to myself to live in silence with no technology around to interfere.

Then do it! I know of places in Colorado where you could undertake a week's solitary, silent retreat and there are plenty around You could abide by any rules you'd care to impose on yourself. If you wanted to do something long-term (6 mo?), you could even take temporary vows and actually be a monastic!!!

Is this a great country, or what???



Seriously though.....there's something to be said for retreat practice.

klmeer

I still dont get how Trunpa Chogyam could be so wasted all the time and still a master meditation teacher .One blow of good bud and Im gone for a week .

charirama

I consider it from time to time when I'm not too distracted to realize how distracted I am.

Chaz

klmeer said:

I still dont get how Trunpa Chogyam could be so wasted all the time and still a master meditation teacher .One blow of good bud and Im gone for a week .

Pema Chodron offered her take on a similar question about the Vidyadhara. She said, simply....

"I don't know."

Which is pretty much my take. I spend quite a bit of time with people who were students of CTR. His eccentricities are no big secret nor are they glossed over with apology. But you take those lifestyle issues with CTR, and then bring his teachings, recorded in print, audio and video, into the discussion you are presented with a paradox. You have someone, who on one hand, exemplifies pretty much everything we, today, are told to avoid, but if you look at his teaching with a mind unbiased by opinion of the man, you see a certain genius in presenting the Dharma. CTR is an enigma.

So how do you reconcile this? I'm not sure you can. I think the best you can do is to decide for yourself if you want to work with CTRs teachings or not, and move on from there.

And dude, you're kind of a lightweight, aren't ya? :rolleyes:

jll

According to the pali sutta, you are wrong .

TheEccentric said:

jll said:

me, the enlightened kind who believes in reincarnation.

The Buddha was enlightened and did not believe in reincarnation, he believed in Rebirth.

vinlyn

My belief is that most people who use the terms "rebirth" or "reincarnation" don't really understand the difference, and that the difference between the two is one of the finer points of the discussion for two things that we really don't even know if either happens.

robot

vinlyn said:

My belief is that most people who use the terms "rebirth" or "reincarnation" don't really understand the difference, and that the difference between the two is one of the finer points of the discussion for two things that we really don't even know if either happens.

I agree. At the point that you find yourself taking one position over the other and trying to make an arguement for it, you have given up trying to see things as they are. You are lost in imaginary scenarios about what might have been and what might happen.

federica

jll said:

According to the pali sutta, you are wrong .

TheEccentric said:

jll said:

me, the enlightened kind who believes in reincarnation.

The Buddha was enlightened and did not believe in reincarnation, he believed in Rebirth.

Reference and link please, @jll.

Thanks.

jll

dear fed, ask any pali scholar, or anyone who has bothered
to read about Buddha and they will tell you that Buddha spoke
numerous times about his previous lives and the previous lives of other
people during his time.
for reference, look at writings of ajahn brahm, thanissaro and bikkhu bodhi.

federica said:

jll said:

According to the pali sutta, you are wrong .

TheEccentric said:

jll said:

me, the enlightened kind who believes in reincarnation.

The Buddha was enlightened and did not believe in reincarnation, he believed in Rebirth.

Reference and link please, @jll.

Thanks.

vinlyn

jll said:

dear fed, ask any pali scholar, or anyone who has bothered
to read about Buddha and they will tell you that Buddha spoke
numerous times about his previous lives and the previous lives of other
people during his time.
for reference, look at writings of ajahn brahm, thanissaro and bikkhu bodhi.

federica said:

jll said:

According to the pali sutta, you are wrong .

TheEccentric said:

jll said:

me, the enlightened kind who believes in reincarnation.

The Buddha was enlightened and did not believe in reincarnation, he believed in Rebirth.

Reference and link please, @jll.

Thanks.

How does that mean that he believed in reincarnation rather than rebirth?

jll

some people here like to give the impression that
that there is a 50-50 divide between buddhist monks who
believe in reincarnation and those who dont.

no, there isnt the ratio is 99% of monks believe in reincarnation
and maybe 1% dont believe in reincarnation. reincarnation in buddhism is not
the same as hinduism bcos hindus believe in a permanent soul.

and to confuse matters further, there are people who argue
that buddha taught rebirth not reincarnation.
what exactly is rebirth?
reincarnation means you have previous lives and future lives.
it means you reap the fruits of your actions in this life and future lives.

Buddha taught reincarnation whether you like it or not.
and apparently , there are many outspoken people here who prefer
that he did not.

vinlyn

Jll, chill out. I have no opinion either way. But you still didn't answer the question.

Sabre

No need for another rebirth/reincarnation discussion I'd say. The difference is mainly a question of semantics anyway.

klmeer

Id say its a pretty difficult jump to monkhood these days for all but the totally dedicated . Too many distractions ,.I was recently in a 2 week retreat and had to think , man these guys do this full time . But i do think with perseverance and commitment a monkish life would be great .In fact Im saving up for it .Again that wont be real monk just enough time and money to do loads of retreats without working for a year or so .Who knows what will come out of prolonged meditation ,like 1 or 2 months .?

Chaz

klmeer said:

Who knows what will come out of prolonged meditation ,like 1 or 2 months .?

If you could go into retreat for a year, I think the benefit to your practice would be enormous. Even a couple months, with proper guidance, would be epic.

Sabre

klmeer said:

Who knows what will come out of prolonged meditation ,like 1 or 2 months .?

I can say that a proper retreat of longer that length can really open eyes. You don't even need to meditate all that much. The close connection with people interested in developing the mind and the distance from media/music/novels/etc. already is very insightful and beautiful in a way. At least, it was for me. After about 4 weeks the boredom and craving for external impulses turned around into peace which to some level I can always recollect. I would recommend it to everybody. In fact it is one of the reasons why I decided to aim toward becoming a monk.

Chaz

Sabre said:

klmeer said:

Who knows what will come out of prolonged meditation ,like 1 or 2 months .?

I can say that a proper retreat of longer that length can really open eyes. You don't even need to meditate all that much. The close connection with people interested in developing the mind and the distance from media/music/novels/etc. already is very insightful and beautiful in a way. At least, it was for me. After about 4 weeks the boredom and craving for external impulses turned around into peace which to some level I can always recollect. I would recommend it to everybody. In fact it is one of the reasons why I decided to aim toward becoming a monk.

That's soooooo right!

Hell, even a week in solitary retreat can be a real game-changer for practice in the longer term.

And you're right, you don't have to "meditate" all the time. The retreat center I go to asks that retreatnts take part in chores like cleaning up after meals, routine cleaning on the building, maintenence, etc. You can also go for walks on the grounds, sit in the library and read, take part in the various group practices proscribed by the abbot (Chenrezig, Tara, Medicine Buddha, etc) or have a pleasant chat with one of the resident monastics.


Just being in an environment condusive to practice is a practice in and of itself.

It's a wonderfull experience that I think all serious practitioners should undertake.

TheEccentric

jll said:

and to confuse matters further, there are people who argue
that buddha taught rebirth not reincarnation.
what exactly is rebirth?
reincarnation means you have previous lives and future lives.
it means you reap the fruits of your actions in this life and future lives.

In Rebirth people still have past and future lives.

Rebirth is reincarnation without the soul but with a stream of consciousness.

footiam

genkaku said:

I once asked my Zen teacher, the abbot of a monastery in Japan, what he would like to do if he weren't a monk. His face lit up with the same sort of child-like delight anyone displays when asked what their dreams are. What he would do, he said, was to run a noodle parlor: The work was easy, the mark-up was terrific, and all the customers went away satisfied.

A monk is just another job?

how

Yes!

The nature of any job is often only the manner in which you practice it.

footiam

Sabre said:

Can I use a lifeline?

I want to become a monk and will leave my current life soon. But to me becoming a monk is not about thinking in terms of what kind of monk you want to be, or developing certain desired characteristics. To me that's the way 'lay life' thinks: of becoming, changing into some desired person. But to be a monk is more about being in the present and even being allowed to 'not be'. Not to have to be some specific person. Not to have to hide behind some picture others should have of you.

One can be a layman then and still be a monk.

BhikkhuJayasara

I have been preparing for a few years, I am set to go into Bhavana Society as a resident with intent to renounce this May. My mind swings back and forth with regards to attachments to the mundane life, but my desire to renounce has remained steady.

Several

People become monks for many reasons. Only few are really pursuing realisation, which requires far more than just meditation. Many do it to 'be' a monk like its a role-playing game. They attach importance to the appearances, usually becoming obsessed with vinaya and arguing about subtle interpretations of terms. Here in Thailand some are just doing it to save money for a car or to escape from something like the police or gangsters. Some do it for social standing, some to make their mum happy. There are as many Buddhisms as there are Buddhists. Many monks aren't escaping Samsara so much as converting it. Too many forget a craving is still a craving regardless of what you're wearing.

lobster

footiam said:

And what kind of monk would you be? Perhaps, there ought to be some special characteristics in a monk. You'd not want to have a grim, boring monk perhaps!

I am a plains clothed monk. Working undercover. It is all about attitude. Yinyana Buddhism does not allow monks or members come to that, hence my derobing.

Going on retreat or taking temp robes is a great way to practice. Retreat is as far as I get. I am attached to my hair, technology, comforts and freedom. Fancy dress and too much sangha does not appeal, just too much compassion, no real suffering worth mentioning and looking weird. However they are super heroes in theory, so gotta love their efforts . . .

:wave:

footiam

Sabre said:

Can I use a lifeline?

I want to become a monk and will leave my current life soon. But to me becoming a monk is not about thinking in terms of what kind of monk you want to be, or developing certain desired characteristics. To me that's the way 'lay life' thinks: of becoming, changing into some desired person. But to be a monk is more about being in the present and even being allowed to 'not be'. Not to have to be some specific person. Not to have to hide behind some picture others should have of you.

Many time, we think as layman; never put our feet on other peoples' shoes. That create a lot of problems, I suppose. Thanks! You have indeed been a lifeline!

federica

jll said:

dear fed, ask any pali scholar, or anyone who has bothered
to read about Buddha and they will tell you that Buddha spoke
numerous times about his previous lives and the previous lives of other
people during his time.
for reference, look at writings of ajahn brahm, thanissaro and bikkhu bodhi.

@jll, No.

When you make a claim, back it up. That's your duty to provide links. Standard procedure. It's not up to others to verify your statements and claims. It's up to you.

Waiting.......

federica

jll said:

.....
what exactly is rebirth?
reincarnation means you have previous lives and future lives.
it means you reap the fruits of your actions in this life and future lives.

Yes, but not as the same being or reproduction of the same being. That's rebirth. reincarntion is the same being continuing in a stream.

Buddha taught reincarnation whether you like it or not.
and apparently , there are many outspoken people here who prefer
that he did not.

references please, @jll.....

Chaz

federica said:

@jll, No.

When you make a claim, back it up. That's your duty to provide links. Standard procedure. It's not up to others to verify your statements and claims. It's up to you.

Waiting.......

People make "claims" on this board all the time and are not required to offer citation.

Like this.

TheEccentric said:

The Buddha was enlightened and did not believe in reincarnation, he believed in Rebirth.

@TheEccentric made a unsupported claim right there and nobody's asking him for chapter and verse.

Dandelion

footiam said:

I have always heard this question: Who wants to be a millionaire? Now, I wonder who wants to be a monk? And what kind of monk would you be? Perhaps, there ought to be some special characteristics in a monk. You'd notwant to have a grim, boring monk perhaps!

no, it's not for me. I don't have what it would take. I wouldn't want to be a millionaire either though... what a hassle - I'd be crap with that kind of money
:eek2:

federica

Chaz said:

@TheEccentric made a unsupported claim right there and nobody's asking him for chapter and verse.

Because it's already been supported and acknowledged.
he discusses rebirth widely, and it's widely known and accepted. @jll stated he spoke of reincarnation, which is less accurate.

DharmaMcBum

I don't want to be a monk. People can practice as much as they like and need without the monking. (monking is now a real word) I think there is so much more to life to be experienced as a lay person that is missed by a monastic life. A monk would be like a lens that would focus on a very narrow part of practice while missing the wider view of the lens of lay life.
Or so I think.

DairyLama

I've been looking for a monastery with a wide-screen TV....

DairyLama

dhammachick said:

I too have never wanted to be a monk, but I would LOVE a week to myself to live in silence with no technology around to interfere.

How about doing a retreat?

BhikkhuJayasara

DharmaMcBum said:

I don't want to be a monk. People can practice as much as they like and need without the monking. (monking is now a real word) I think there is so much more to life to be experienced as a lay person that is missed by a monastic life. A monk would be like a lens that would focus on a very narrow part of practice while missing the wider view of the lens of lay life.
Or so I think.

its a matter of perspective and life experience I suppose.

in my short 35 years of life I've experienced more stuff then most people in their 70s. I've experienced the life and death of multiple people( I know some 50 year olds who still have grandparents alive.. amazing). I've been married, cared for a sick wife and then she died. I've been around the globe to places like Peru and New Zealand(matter of fact I had a goal of setting foot on all 7 continents). I've done stuff like take a helicopter ride to the top of a mountain glacier, sky dived, was a political leader and activist. Now I do crazy endurance events.

what i've come to find through my practice is that its all striving.. when I look back at everything I've done, it pales in comparison(for me) to the little amazing progress i've made in my practice. There is nothing really left for me in this world that would want to keep me in the lay life, I'm ready to live a life of practice, discipline, and eventually service to others through action and dhamma teaching.

whether thats how I feel 10 years from now, who knows? life is a beautiful mysterious thing.

Invincible_summer

DharmaMcBum said:

I don't want to be a monk. People can practice as much as they like and need without the monking. (monking is now a real word) I think there is so much more to life to be experienced as a lay person that is missed by a monastic life. A monk would be like a lens that would focus on a very narrow part of practice while missing the wider view of the lens of lay life.
Or so I think.

Interesting - I think that the "wider view" of lay life is actually what makes ordaining as an adult (vs. "growing up" in the monastic community, as is often done in SE Asia) more meaningful.

DharmaMcBum

@Invincible_summer Do you mean they start as lay folks then narrow their focus as monks later? Or that the monk are simply more involved in lay life as the monastic side is far more deeply woven into the peoples culture?
Maybe as I age I'll find the idea of a monastic life appeals more. Or maybe not. I can certainly see the appeal in retreats though they're not a realistic option for me just now.

BhikkhuJayasara

Invincible_summer said:

DharmaMcBum said:

I don't want to be a monk. People can practice as much as they like and need without the monking. (monking is now a real word) I think there is so much more to life to be experienced as a lay person that is missed by a monastic life. A monk would be like a lens that would focus on a very narrow part of practice while missing the wider view of the lens of lay life.
Or so I think.

Interesting - I think that the "wider view" of lay life is actually what makes ordaining as an adult (vs. "growing up" in the monastic community, as is often done in SE Asia) more meaningful.

DharmaMcBum said:

@Invincible_summer Do you mean they start as lay folks then narrow their focus as monks later? Or that the monk are simply more involved in lay life as the monastic side is far more deeply woven into the peoples culture?
Maybe as I age I'll find the idea of a monastic life appeals more. Or maybe not. I can certainly see the appeal in retreats though they're not a realistic option for me just now.

I like what @invincible_summer is saying and I agree. Someone who has lived a good chuck of lay life(for instance myself, by the time I'm fully ordained I would of lived half a human life(38 years, life expectancy is what 74?) as a lay person who experienced much. it makes renouncing more meaningful and the teaching more potent and understandable to lay persons.

I had a therapist for a number of years, he was the second one, the first was a guy who you could tell counseled from his degree, he didn't help me. My second therapist, who I now consider a friend, is a man who was a viet nam vet, lost his first wife to cancer, was a biker, drug distributer, alcoholic, drug user, who is now in his 60s a well respected and saught after psychologist who is an expert witness for the state. THAT man not only counseled from books, but also from life experience, a huge difference.

now you take someone who was a monk since age 11, granted they still have experienced life, but quite a different life in many respects from the average lay person. A monk who has "been there" I think holds more sway for the most part, at least to me.

Invincible_summer

@DharmaMcBum - I was mainly referring to the tradition practiced in SE Asia where children are often sent to temples and are involved to some extent in the monastic community, sometimes for life (and become full monks) or disrobe and return to lay life.

And @Jayantha, that's exactly what I meant! Thanks for elaborating.


I also think that for those of us who haven't grown up with a certain faith tradition (in the West, it may be Hinduism or Buddhism; the East, possibly Christianity), "converting" and even ordaining in that "foreign" tradition speaks to the depth of faith that that individual has.