Happy Thanksgiving!

genkaku

... and here's a little history to go with your turkey.

lobster

Big in USA, minor festival here in UK.

Happy Thanksgiving :clap:

Vastmind

Good article.
.....'So when you sit down to dinner this year, look at your family, serve the food and tell each other what you are most thankful for, think about the origins of Thanksgiving. Think about the countless Native Americans who lost their lives so you can carve a turkey and get the best deals on Black Friday. Say a prayer for them, especially the children, who died simply because of the color of their skin.'


What are our "traditions" based on? What do we want them , as
a society here, to represent and remind us?

vinlyn

Vastmind said:

Good article.
.....'So when you sit down to dinner this year, look at your family, serve the food and tell each other what you are most thankful for, think about the origins of Thanksgiving. Think about the countless Native Americans who lost their lives so you can carve a turkey and get the best deals on Black Friday. Say a prayer for them, especially the children, who died simply because of the color of their skin.'


What are our "traditions" based on? What do we want them , as
a society here, to represent and remind us?

Sorry, I don't buy into that. I was not alive in the 1600s, and my Irish ancestors did not come to America until the canal building era, around the 1820s. Put it on somebody else's back, if you want to, but not mine.

Vastmind

No need to be sorry...I have heard that before....in fact, I think that
is the 'get over it' position that the author speaks of in the article...no?
Plenty of other backs to put it on.....

Jason

Today I wrote:

For me, like many others, Thanksgiving is a time to be obligatorily thankful and (more importantly) share a delicious meal with those around me in the spirit of generosity and kindness. And while I love to stuff my face full of delicious, home-cooked food and watch football as much as the next stereotypical American, I think it's worthwhile to reflect on the history of Thanksgiving.

Much like Columbus Day, this holiday is marred by a grim and bloody past, from the mythologized 1621 celebration at Plymouth to the 1863 proclamation by President Lincoln for a national day of "Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens" during the midst of the Civil War.

The former belies the tragic fate of the Native Americans that unfolded under Manifest Destiny and the 19th century policy of Indian removal, a history that's often downplayed or even outright ignored (replaced instead by a warm and fuzzy nationalism and a thick, poisonous haze of holiday consumerism), while the latter was set within the context of what many consider to be the deadliest war in American history.

So for me, today isn't just about being thankful, overeating, and watching the Lions. It's also about remembering the rather somber and often overlooked history underlying this holiday with the intention to learn from the past and strengthen my resolve to try and make this world a better place. As George Santayana famously wrote, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

I didn't write that because I think it's assholeish to enjoy Thanksgiving, however; but more along the lines of: 'I like eating and football as much as the next person, but the history behind this particular holiday is often downplayed and being forgotten and I don't think it should be.'

My perspective is that, if we are to continue to improve as a species and as a society, we need to know our mistakes and what we're capable of; and by 'we,' I mean humans in general.

For most of my life, I've been ignorant of both. I grew up so ignorant about these things that I guess I feel the need to make sure those around me aren't as a corrective, which can be annoying I suppose (especially for those who are already well aware of them and not racist, sexist, nationalistic, etc.), but I think it's important to remember the bad as we celebrate the good.

I have it in me to be aggressor and victim alike. I have it in me to sanitize my past misdeeds and romanticize my non-misdeeds. And I have it in me to do better, to be better, and to plant the seeds for a better future so that these kinds of things never have to happen again.

riverflow

Thanksgiving? Do we even celebrate that holiday anymore? I thought we re-named that day Black Friday Thursday.

federica

vinlyn said:

Sorry, I don't buy into that. I was not alive in the 1600s, and my Irish ancestors did not come to America until the canal building era, around the 1820s. Put it on somebody else's back, if you want to, but not mine.

This kind of "I give a shit"-edness is unfortunately neither new, nor uncommon.
"I wasn't involved, so I don't count, or need to feel any part of a collective responsibility." is what ultimately leads to downfall....

Ergo...

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

Other versions exist.
But you get the picture....

BhikkhuJayasara

lobster said:

Big in USA, minor festival here in UK.

Happy Thanksgiving :clap:

I'm amazed its a festival in uk... or is there just another festival that matches the time frame?

federica

I don't know where @lobster gets the idea it's even a 'minor festival' in the UK. I know of no British people at all, who celebrate thanksgiving as a particular occasion, only ex-pat Americans. And I don't know many of those here, either....

ThailandTom

Sorry it is a bit late but I hope everyone in the US had a pleasant Thanksgiving and spent some decent time with those close to you.

@lobster why would British nationals celebrate the most American celebration? It makes literally no sense when taking into account what it represents. Stay away from that Buddha crack pipe son

Vastmind

I still can't wrap my head around how many Native Americans, on reservations,
have no running water and electricity. I'm not even talking about jobs, and equal
opportunitues...but water. So sad....

ThailandTom

Vastmind said:

I still can't wrap my head around how many Native Americans, on reservations,
have no running water and electricity. I'm not even talking about jobs, and equal
opportunitues...but water. So sad....

I am pretty ignorant to this situation, I thought they were pretty well integrated into society now? It is such a shame what has happened when you think about it, yes a lot of many great things have come from modern USA but what if had been somewhat left alone. Can you enlighten me on this @Vastmind?

vinlyn

federica said:

vinlyn said:

Sorry, I don't buy into that. I was not alive in the 1600s, and my Irish ancestors did not come to America until the canal building era, around the 1820s. Put it on somebody else's back, if you want to, but not mine.

This kind of "I give a shit"-edness is unfortunately neither new, nor uncommon.
"I wasn't involved, so I don't count, or need to feel any part of a collective responsibility." is what ultimately leads to downfall....

Ergo...

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

Other versions exist.
But you get the picture....

First, if you're going to extensively quote someone, then you ought to give credit to the person whom you're quoting, in this case Elie Wiesel.

But more importantly, in my view, each of us earns karma for the deeds we do. And people ought to be held responsible -- or rewarded -- for the things they do. But I'm not going to take any personal responsibility for something that happened 328 years before I was born (assuming you're talking about what is often recognized as the first Thanksgiving, rather than even earlier ceremonies of thanks that occurred in North America beginning with the Spanish in the 1500s). I had nothing to do with it. My ancestors were still in Ireland, and would be for another 200 years.

I'm also going to refuse to be held responsible for the Rape Of Nanking, the atrocities of Attila the Hun, and the debauchery of Caligula. I wasn't born yet. Hence, it was impossible for me to have any affect on any of those events.

I realize that people like you enjoy assigning blame, but no thank you, I'll have a piece of lasagna instead.

Go back to the very piece of writing that you quote. Elie Wiesel talks about the coming for the communists, the locking up of the social democrats, then the trade unionists, then the Jews, all by the Nazis...all developments that occurred when he was alive, when theoretically he might have had an influence...although Hitler's rise to power began when Wiesel was 3 years old. And in fact, by the time World War II was over, Wiesel was only 14. But, of course, Wiesel was talking about the concept that if we do nothing about injustice, then we, too, are responsible.

And so, if you want to place some responsibility on my shoulders for the current fiasco and disgrace of the reservation system in the United States...I'll accept some responsibility there, because I have done nothing -- not even written a letter to my Congresspeople -- to change it (although I do donate regularly to a number of American Indian charities). For any injustices done in my lifetime from my teen years until now...in my country...for which I have done nothing, I'll take a little of the responsibility. But for those things that occurred before I was...oh, let's say 12...take all that responsibility and put it on your own shoulders, if you wish, but I'll not take any part of it.

ThailandTom

vinlyn said:

federica said:

vinlyn said:

Sorry, I don't buy into that. I was not alive in the 1600s, and my Irish ancestors did not come to America until the canal building era, around the 1820s. Put it on somebody else's back, if you want to, but not mine.

This kind of "I give a shit"-edness is unfortunately neither new, nor uncommon.
"I wasn't involved, so I don't count, or need to feel any part of a collective responsibility." is what ultimately leads to downfall....

Ergo...

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

Other versions exist.
But you get the picture....

First, if you're going to extensively quote someone, then you ought to give credit to the person whom you're quoting, in this case Elie Wiesel.

But more importantly, in my view, each of us earns karma for the deeds we do. And people ought to be held responsible -- or rewarded -- for the things they do. But I'm not going to take any personal responsibility for something that happened 328 years before I was born (assuming you're talking about what is often recognized as the first Thanksgiving, rather than even earlier ceremonies of thanks that occurred in North America beginning with the Spanish in the 1500s). I had nothing to do with it. My ancestors were still in Ireland, and would be for another 200 years.

I'm also going to refuse to be held responsible for the Rape Of Nanking, the atrocities of Attila the Hun, and the debauchery of Caligula. I wasn't born yet. Hence, it was impossible for me to have any affect on any of those events.

I realize that people like you enjoy assigning blame, but no thank you, I'll have a piece of lasagna instead.

Go back to the very piece of writing that you quote. Elie Wiesel talks about the coming for the communists, the locking up of the social democrats, then the trade unionists, then the Jews, all by the Nazis...all developments that occurred when he was alive, when theoretically he might have had an influence...although Hitler's rise to power began when Wiesel was 3 years old. And in fact, by the time World War II was over, Wiesel was only 14. But, of course, Wiesel was talking about the concept that if we do nothing about injustice, then we, too, are responsible.

And so, if you want to place some responsibility on my shoulders for the current fiasco and disgrace of the reservation system in the United States...I'll accept some responsibility there, because I have done nothing -- not even written a letter to my Congresspeople -- to change it (although I do donate regularly to a number of American Indian charities). For any injustices done in my lifetime from my teen years until now...in my country...for which I have done nothing, I'll take a little of the responsibility. But for those things that occurred before I was...oh, let's say 12...take all that responsibility and put it on your own shoulders, if you wish, but I'll not take any part of it.

woah wtf have I just walked into, I'm gunna take some time out from this one I think. Hope you had a good holiday all and the same goes for the rest of the year

Jainarayan

I think celebrating Columbus Day and lionizing Columbus is more of an insult than the gluttony of Thanksgiving Day. I have my own issues with Thanksgiving Day because, while people pay lip service to "being thankful every day", once the words leave the lips, it's as Kansas said, "Dust in the wind, all it is, is dust in the wind". I said yesterday that I think for the next holiday, be it this Christmas or starting next Thanksgiving Day I want to volunteer at a senior center, assisted living home, or some kind of public place that feeds those that can't feed themselves. At 200 lbs, I certainly can go a day without eating in the interest of feeding those who can't feed themselves.

vinlyn

Nice post, Jainarayan. I agree with you about Columbus Day. I just don't get it, and never had. I never understood, as an educator, why that was a school holiday.

In recent years I have begun a new tradition, on Thanksgiving day I sit down with my checkbook and write out most of my charitable contributions for the year. That way I'm connecting what I'm thankful for with the needs of others.

how

The Hunger Games.
Coming soon to a theater near you.
from the Turkey liberation front.

Jainarayan

vinlyn said:

Nice post, Jainarayan. I agree with you about Columbus Day. I just don't get it, and never had. I never understood, as an educator, why that was a school holiday.

Not to sound uppity and self-righteous, but Columbus Day actually makes me embarrassed to be Italian-American. I caught part of the Italian-American Columbus Day Parade on tv (I was a captive audience in a waiting room), and was glad that I don't look Italian at all.

In recent years I have begun a new tradition, on Thanksgiving day I sit down with my checkbook and write out most of my charitable contributions for the year. That way I'm connecting what I'm thankful for with the needs of others.

Outstanding idea.

MaryAnne

@Jainarayan,

I know exactly how you feel! I'm only 2nd generation Italian American, so my family has been in the USA only about 100 yrs. But Columbus day has always been to me a huge cringe factor.
I refuse to celebrate it, or take 'pride' in it. As a matter of fact, I'm usually pretty obnoxious about voicing my disdain for Columbus Day at every opportunity!

BhikkhuJayasara

Any holiday that allows you to be closer with your family and/or ancestry is a good holiday, regardless of our modern lens looking back at hundreds of years of history with an eye for judgement.

Jeffrey

For me Columbus day would be better if it were a celebration of the East and the West. All of the things shared like cocoa and corn from the West and coffee from the East.

I think it's a celebration of coming in contact of cultures but it is problematic because of genocide.

But I do celebrate in my heart the mingling of cultures.

vinlyn

Jayantha said:

Any holiday that allows you to be closer with your family and/or ancestry is a good holiday, regardless of our modern lens looking back at hundreds of years of history with an eye for judgement.

That's a good point.

And, after all, we do pay a modern price for Thanksgiving -- as some film back 20 or more years ago said -- what is Thanksgiving? A day when families get together to argue.

ThailandTom

Jayantha said:

Any holiday that allows you to be closer with your family and/or ancestry is a good holiday, regardless of our modern lens looking back at hundreds of years of history with an eye for judgement.

:nyah:

federica

@vinlyn...
People 'like' me....?

I don't get your meaning there.

As for the rest, whatever floats your boat.

Jainarayan

vinlyn said:

what is Thanksgiving? A day when families get together to argue.

That's why it's called a hollerday.

David

In Canada we celebrate Thanksgiving as well but not for the same reason. The Natives here were treated just as badly but the holiday is about being thankful for the harvest.

As a side note, there really is no such thing as Native Americans/Canadians. Every bloodline here migrated. The Natives were just here before everybody else.

MaryAnne

where did the "native" Americans migrate from? Wait, let me reword that....

Where did the "natives" of north America migrate from?

One more time... LOL

Where did all the "native" peoples of the Americas migrate from?
That should work.

MaryAnne

here's one answer:
[snip]
The indigenous peoples of the Americas are the pre-Columbian inhabitants of North and South America and their descendants. Pueblos indígenas (indigenous peoples) is a common term in Spanish-speaking countries. Aborigen (aboriginal/native) is used in Argentina, while "Amerindian" is used in Guyana but not commonly used in other countries.[22]
Indigenous peoples are commonly known in Canada as Aboriginal peoples,[23] which include First Nations, Inuit, and Métis peoples. Indigenous peoples of the United States are commonly known as Native Americans or American Indians, and Alaskan Natives.[24]

According to a prevailing New World migration model, migrations of humans from Eurasia to the Americas took place via Beringia, a land bridge which connected the two continents across what is now the Bering Strait.

The most recent migration could have taken place around 12,000 years ago, with the earliest period remaining a matter of some unresolved contention.[25][26]
These early Paleo-Indians soon spread throughout the Americas, diversifying into many hundreds of culturally distinct nations and tribes.[26]
[end snip]

I think the fact that the Native Americans/First Nations people predate the European invasion by about 11,000 years really does entitle them to be considered indigenous people and not immigrants. Just sayin'....

BhikkhuJayasara

ourself said:

In Canada we celebrate Thanksgiving as well but not for the same reason. The Natives here were treated just as badly but the holiday is about being thankful for the harvest.

As a side note, there really is no such thing as Native Americans/Canadians. Every bloodline here migrated. The Natives were just here before everybody else.

well then technically every human being on the planet is a native African and an immigrant of wherever they were born :P.

lobster

federica said:

I don't know where @lobster gets the idea it's even a 'minor festival' in the UK. I know of no British people at all, who celebrate thanksgiving as a particular occasion, only ex-pat Americans. And I don't know many of those here, either....

The UK equivalent is Harvest Festival. Now you know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvest_festival

anataman

federica said:

I don't know where @lobster gets the idea it's even a 'minor festival' in the UK. I know of no British people at all, who celebrate thanksgiving as a particular occasion, only ex-pat Americans. And I don't know many of those here, either....

I don't and know of no one else who would but today, in Britain and Ireland it has been reported that Black Friday has become something for consumerist outlets to sell on before the christmas rush and it has caused major problems. Just look at what happened! greed!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/asda-stores-witness-black-friday-chaos-as-fights-break-out-over-televisions-8973447.html

I am thankful I did not feel the need to get a cheap television today.

David

MaryAnne said:

here's one answer:
[snip]
The indigenous peoples of the Americas are the pre-Columbian inhabitants of North and South America and their descendants. Pueblos indígenas (indigenous peoples) is a common term in Spanish-speaking countries. Aborigen (aboriginal/native) is used in Argentina, while "Amerindian" is used in Guyana but not commonly used in other countries.[22]
Indigenous peoples are commonly known in Canada as Aboriginal peoples,[23] which include First Nations, Inuit, and Métis peoples. Indigenous peoples of the United States are commonly known as Native Americans or American Indians, and Alaskan Natives.[24]

According to a prevailing New World migration model, migrations of humans from Eurasia to the Americas took place via Beringia, a land bridge which connected the two continents across what is now the Bering Strait.

The most recent migration could have taken place around 12,000 years ago, with the earliest period remaining a matter of some unresolved contention.[25][26]
These early Paleo-Indians soon spread throughout the Americas, diversifying into many hundreds of culturally distinct nations and tribes.[26]
[end snip]

I think the fact that the Native Americans/First Nations people predate the European invasion by about 11,000 years really does entitle them to be considered indigenous people and not immigrants. Just sayin'....

That can be said about anyone that was born here. We all came from the same place originally and it wasn't the Americas. Therefore, anyone here has roots across the ocean, most likely Africa.

I have a hard time seeing borders as anything more than make believe.

David

Jayantha said:

ourself said:

In Canada we celebrate Thanksgiving as well but not for the same reason. The Natives here were treated just as badly but the holiday is about being thankful for the harvest.

As a side note, there really is no such thing as Native Americans/Canadians. Every bloodline here migrated. The Natives were just here before everybody else.

well then technically every human being on the planet is a native African and an immigrant of wherever they were born :P.

Now you're on to something except that we are all natives of Earth so none of us are immigrants. If we meet up with others and we see how we're the same, we can update and say we are all universal. We can't really migrate from elsewhere.

Us and "them" is the worst disease to ever infect mankind. There is no "them", just more of us.

vinlyn

ourself said:

...

I have a hard time seeing borders as anything more than make believe.

Have you crossed many with make believe passports?

robot

ourself said:

MaryAnne said:

here's one answer:
[snip]
The indigenous peoples of the Americas are the pre-Columbian inhabitants of North and South America and their descendants. Pueblos indígenas (indigenous peoples) is a common term in Spanish-speaking countries. Aborigen (aboriginal/native) is used in Argentina, while "Amerindian" is used in Guyana but not commonly used in other countries.[22]
Indigenous peoples are commonly known in Canada as Aboriginal peoples,[23] which include First Nations, Inuit, and Métis peoples. Indigenous peoples of the United States are commonly known as Native Americans or American Indians, and Alaskan Natives.[24]

According to a prevailing New World migration model, migrations of humans from Eurasia to the Americas took place via Beringia, a land bridge which connected the two continents across what is now the Bering Strait.

The most recent migration could have taken place around 12,000 years ago, with the earliest period remaining a matter of some unresolved contention.[25][26]
These early Paleo-Indians soon spread throughout the Americas, diversifying into many hundreds of culturally distinct nations and tribes.[26]
[end snip]

I think the fact that the Native Americans/First Nations people predate the European invasion by about 11,000 years really does entitle them to be considered indigenous people and not immigrants. Just sayin'....

That can be said about anyone that was born here. We all came from the same place originally and it wasn't the Americas. Therefore, anyone here has roots across the ocean, most likely Africa.

I have a hard time seeing borders as anything more than make believe.

You are living in a dream land. I take it you don't do much traveling. Countries take their borders very seriously.
Whether one considers all North Americans to be immigrants or not. The fact of European arrival was disasterous to the people who were already here. And it still is.
The term First Nations spells out that they were here first. It makes no claim that they were here since time began.
Thankfully our government ( Canadian) is recognizing some of the injustices that were carried out by the earlier European arrivals on the folks who were here, and is making some effort to sort things out. In terms of defining rights and negotiating treaties, (in British Columbia where the treaty process was late getting started).
I don't think that it's unreasonable that the balance swings in favour of First Nations as it appears to in some areas.

David

vinlyn said:

ourself said:

...

I have a hard time seeing borders as anything more than make believe.

Have you crossed many with make believe passports?

Make believe lines in the sand defended with guns is still make believe.

vinlyn

You didn't answer the question.

David

I figured it was rhetorical since it has no bearing on the fact.

David

robot said:

You are living in a dream land. I take it you don't do much traveling. Countries take their borders very seriously.

That doesn't change the fact that the borders are just make believe.

Whether one considers all North Americans to be immigrants or not. The fact of European arrival was disasterous to the people who were already here. And it still is.

Yes, but it happens everywhere and still, it is the illusion of separation that is to blame.

The term First Nations spells out that they were here first. It makes no claim that they were here since time began.

And?

Thankfully our government ( Canadian) is recognizing some of the injustices that were carried out by the earlier European arrivals on the folks who were here, and is making some effort to sort things out. In terms of defining rights and negotiating treaties, (in British Columbia where the treaty process was late getting started).

Yes, the church was pretty brutal in their quest for genocide but that still doesn't change the fact that we are all sharing this Earth whether we like it or not. And borders are just pretend.

I don't think that it's unreasonable that the balance swings in favour of First Nations as it appears to in some areas.

In some regards sure but it's time to get over ourselves and move ahead.

My wife who was Mohawk agreed with me as well.

robot

ourself said:

robot said:

You are living in a dream land. I take it you don't do much traveling. Countries take their borders very seriously.

That doesn't change the fact that the borders are just make believe.

Whether one considers all North Americans to be immigrants or not. The fact of European arrival was disasterous to the people who were already here. And it still is.

Yes, but it happens everywhere and still, it is the illusion of separation that is to blame.

The term First Nations spells out that they were here first. It makes no claim that they were here since time began.

And?

Thankfully our government ( Canadian) is recognizing some of the injustices that were carried out by the earlier European arrivals on the folks who were here, and is making some effort to sort things out. In terms of defining rights and negotiating treaties, (in British Columbia where the treaty process was late getting started).

Yes, the church was pretty brutal in their quest for genocide but that still doesn't change the fact that we are all sharing this Earth whether we like it or not. And borders are just pretend.

I don't think that it's unreasonable that the balance swings in favour of First Nations as it appears to in some areas.

In some regards sure but it's time to get over ourselves and move ahead.

My wife who was Mohawk agreed with me as well.




Again we come back to trying to say that some things are real and some are not.
Separation is an illusion, but so is sameness.
The church is make believe but it carried out a quest for genocide on an illusory people.
We live in the world or we are enlightened Buddhas.

federica

lobster said:

The UK equivalent is Harvest Festival. Now you know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvest_festival

Oh please.
The two aren't remotely comparable. The 'Harvest Festival' is a purely religious, extremely minor and almost socially insignificant milestone on the Christian calendar. The only people remotely interested in 'celebrating' the harvest festival, other than those directly connected with the earth resources (farmers and the like) are people who attend mass. Otherwise, it's not even a heads-up for anyone else.

Even in my long-past days, when I was a regular church-goer, it wasn't a big deal...
One rendition of -

"We plough the fields and scatter
The good seed on the land...."

and it was all over.
The hymn, by the way, gave absolutely zero credit to the people who really did all the hard graft - at a time when nothing was done mechanically.

riverflow

vinlyn said:

First, if you're going to extensively quote someone, then you ought to give credit to the person whom you're quoting, in this case Elie Wiesel.

Pedent alert: The poem is attributed to Christian pastor Christian pastor Martin Niemoller.

On a similar theme, there's Aesop's fable about the trees and the Axe.

Vastmind

The last 3-4 days....PBS and PBS 2 (World) has been running
awesome programs about
the current state of many different reservations....This morning
they discussed how the treaties are being ignored and Natives
are being kept off their own land now. Anyway, related to the
topic...Good current info....I have been glued to the TV..

DairyLama

federica said:

I know of no British people at all, who celebrate thanksgiving as a particular occasion...

Give it time.... :-/

David

robot said:

ourself said:

robot said:

You are living in a dream land. I take it you don't do much traveling. Countries take their borders very seriously.

That doesn't change the fact that the borders are just make believe.

Whether one considers all North Americans to be immigrants or not. The fact of European arrival was disasterous to the people who were already here. And it still is.

Yes, but it happens everywhere and still, it is the illusion of separation that is to blame.

The term First Nations spells out that they were here first. It makes no claim that they were here since time began.

And?

Thankfully our government ( Canadian) is recognizing some of the injustices that were carried out by the earlier European arrivals on the folks who were here, and is making some effort to sort things out. In terms of defining rights and negotiating treaties, (in British Columbia where the treaty process was late getting started).

Yes, the church was pretty brutal in their quest for genocide but that still doesn't change the fact that we are all sharing this Earth whether we like it or not. And borders are just pretend.

I don't think that it's unreasonable that the balance swings in favour of First Nations as it appears to in some areas.

In some regards sure but it's time to get over ourselves and move ahead.

My wife who was Mohawk agreed with me as well.




Again we come back to trying to say that some things are real and some are not.
Separation is an illusion, but so is sameness.

That makes it sound like a paradox but it isn't really... Everything is a unique aspect of the same thing.

The church is make believe but it carried out a quest for genocide on an illusory people.
We live in the world or we are enlightened Buddhas.

The world isn't just some place that we live. There is no separation between the world and that which lives.

When you get right down to the heart of Native teachings (before the Churches influence), what I'm saying is at its core.

vinlyn

riverflow said:

vinlyn said:

First, if you're going to extensively quote someone, then you ought to give credit to the person whom you're quoting, in this case Elie Wiesel.

Pedent alert: The poem is attributed to Christian pastor Christian pastor Martin Niemoller.

...

You're absolutely correct, and that nagged at me when I wrote that it was from Wiesel. Several years ago I wrote a -- hmmm, not exactly a play -- for our school's Human Relations Committee, which I called, "I Will Answer". It was based on that Ed Ames anti-establishment song, but with each verse, one student and one staff member would step forward and respond with "I will answer", and they represented people like Martin Luther King, and both Niemooler and Elie Wiesel.

So, thanks for catching that error on my part.

Jeffrey

Money and borders are just a collective agreement.

vinlyn

Just? You mean those things that world wars have been fought over?

Jeffrey

Yes, it's sad for the wars. The borders are also how the mandalas are organized. What's sad is that thousands of people, some civilians, lose their lives because non-harming is not valued.

robot

ourself said:

robot said:

ourself said:

robot said:

You are living in a dream land. I take it you don't do much traveling. Countries take their borders very seriously.

That doesn't change the fact that the borders are just make believe.

Whether one considers all North Americans to be immigrants or not. The fact of European arrival was disasterous to the people who were already here. And it still is.

Yes, but it happens everywhere and still, it is the illusion of separation that is to blame.

The term First Nations spells out that they were here first. It makes no claim that they were here since time began.

And?

Thankfully our government ( Canadian) is recognizing some of the injustices that were carried out by the earlier European arrivals on the folks who were here, and is making some effort to sort things out. In terms of defining rights and negotiating treaties, (in British Columbia where the treaty process was late getting started).

Yes, the church was pretty brutal in their quest for genocide but that still doesn't change the fact that we are all sharing this Earth whether we like it or not. And borders are just pretend.

I don't think that it's unreasonable that the balance swings in favour of First Nations as it appears to in some areas.

In some regards sure but it's time to get over ourselves and move ahead.

My wife who was Mohawk agreed with me as well.




Again we come back to trying to say that some things are real and some are not.
Separation is an illusion, but so is sameness.

That makes it sound like a paradox but it isn't really... Everything is a unique aspect of the same thing.

The church is make believe but it carried out a quest for genocide on an illusory people.
We live in the world or we are enlightened Buddhas.

The world isn't just some place that we live. There is no separation between the world and that which lives.

When you get right down to the heart of Native teachings (before the Churches influence), what I'm saying is at its core.






Again, ands it's only my opinion, when discussing worldly things like politics and borders, it can only be done coherently if you leave emptiness out of it.
Otherwise you run the risk of talking nonsense.

"Permanence or impermanence, sameness or difference / both of these or neither / the mistaken projection of fools / continuities without beginning"

From the Lankavatara Sutra