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Alcohol in moderation
Blayne
New
Hello everyone this is my first post on this site sorry if it is in the wrong place.
As I'm sure you all know the fifth precept in regards to alcohol, drugs and loosing mindfulness. But what if I had say one bottle of beer or a small glass of wine, would that be okay as long as I don't loose mindfulness?
As I'm sure you all know the fifth precept in regards to alcohol, drugs and loosing mindfulness. But what if I had say one bottle of beer or a small glass of wine, would that be okay as long as I don't loose mindfulness?
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Well listen up Blayne and welcome. Alcohol is a vice and it has been scientifically proven that around 25% of people if given the chance would drink it daily. Anyway, I am now an alcoholic at age 25, started at 15. I do not drink daily but if I drink even a glass I will not stop until I am out cold. Like now I went out for a meal and had a glass of wine, that turned into 2 tall bottles of beers, then a bottle of wine and now more beer, I will wake up tomorrow with little memory of what happened.
Personally, I am against the ingestion of all alcohol and/or illegal drugs. They are unnecessary to one's life and it isn't as if a line is suddenly crossed where one ounce before and you're not impaired and one ounce later you are impaired. Think of the party when someone has one drink and gets just a little looser in what they say to and about people.
Now, having said that, and even though I have not had a drink or taken illegal drugs in more than 34 years (in fact, never illegal drugs), if you come to my house as a guest you will find beer, wine, and rum. If you choose to partake, that's your choice, and unless you become an embarrassment/problem, I won't criticize you for it.
The important take away? Dont go nuts on the precepts, follow them to the best of your ability and practice, practice, practice.
It is a question of reasonable behaviour. Ideally no alcohol. I have a glass of wine maybe once or twice a month, that is very little and others drink daily. Discretion. Personal karma.
I would suggest it is what you do, perhaps in keeping to the spirit, so to speak, of the precepts. You are not a monk, enjoy one bottle of beer. Do you follow all the other precepts to the absolute? :wave:
Hi @Blayne! Welcome.
Anyway, must dash, it's my A.A. homegroup meeting tonight.
That was so cute!
Personally I haven't taken the fifth precept just for the reason that I enjoy cider/beer.
I read and meditate every day and do fun things like going to the gym. I mention that because I recognize an alcoholic as someone who's life is destroyed (to some degree) by that drinking. I wonder what @Tosh thinks of how to recognize an alcoholic as he is very experienced having gone through alcoholism and helped many folks do that task.
Are we really going to sit here, and talk about all the nuances of the 5th precept, all the possible, acceptable, unacceptable interpretations of the 5th and even go so far as to ASSUME exactly what the Buddha meant - literally - when he uttered the words of the 5th precept 2500 years ago ....
But when someone claims they don't believe in, or aren't sure about rebirth, or some other facet of faith (within Buddhism), then BOOM! All of a sudden they are practically blasphemous, and ignorantly denying all sorts of Buddhist "faith based" doctrine, and they have no clue how to be Buddhist!!
Are you kidding me?? Seriously?
If it wasn't so jaw dropping... I'd be laughing.
But how do we judge faith? Is it based on ideology to reject faith? Or is it pragmatically looking at the empirical benefits (or non-benefit)?
In most things including politics and religion my philosophy is pragmatism rather than ideology. So I am saying an ideology to reject any instance of faith misses the pragmatism. We should evaluate the results of faith by the fruits they result in rather than based on an ideological rejection of faith.
If you can't have faith don't worry about it and just practice the parts you agree with. I was never able to have faith in God so I know how that feels to be 'left out' of certain aspects of a religion that is in my life. So I say that you are not blasphemous or ignorant since your views are your own affair.
No matter what our escape, it keeps us from our practice, which is tough since our practice is what allows us to let go of such things. These mental self destructive habits are without a doubt the hardest things to work on... Im certainly nowhere advanced in my practice to naturally be able to let go of the need for the mind and ego to escape. I still see the roots of negativity and self destructiveness in my mind, they are much less then before, but not wiped completely, and their sway is still felt.
But don't worry about it.... not important.
I remember on my Buddhist foundation course that the teacher spent an inordinate amount of time talking about concepts, how we're conceptual creatures, and how concepts can block us from reality, because a concept is never the 'thing', a concept is just an abstract idea of the 'thing'.
Straight away I knew what was being taught; my concept of what an alcoholic was prevented me from realising that I was an alcoholic. I just thought I was someone who needed to get pissed everyday; a problem drinker - but not a dirty alkie.
This is what the our literature says is an alcoholic: I go along with that. If someone has some problems with alcohol, sincerely wishes to stop drinking, but can't; then they're probably an alcoholic.
I think if you really want to determine if you're an alcoholic, the question is, "why do I still drink - at all?"
Have you ever gone any length of time with no alcohol consumption for say..... 4 days, or 4 weeks, or 4 months consecutively? (Since you gave up nightly drinking, that is)
Sooo, what you are saying is .....
you don't go several days in a row with no alcohol at all ?? or you drink your six beers all on the day you do your weekly shopping? I think I'm confused! LOL
I
When you decide to become a Buddhist, have you not become a 'Mightily And Habitually Addicted To Momentary Awareness' (MAHATMA) addict?
I'm on my second G&T tonight and schtill preschent, but there is a definite dischturbance in my perscheption. However, my underlying awarenessch scheems schtable.
Whatsch the 5th prescript btw ;-_)
Hicch
As a 14yr old you might not be aware that alcohol is addictive.
At 20 you feel like it could never happen to you because you feel invincible.
By 25 you know that alcohol is addictive and that every time you drink the addiction worsens.
Knowing this, if you continue to drink its because you are weak, for some reason. You are powerless to stop.
Is that the way you view yourself?
Soon you will be 30, 40, 50.
You can predict your own future. Mediocrity, poor health, a waste of precious time.
Unfortunately, some of my friends at uni didn't.
or heroin, meth, opium in moderation.......?
the question to be asked is why .
is it out of habit or do you like being a little tipsy?
'ah yea I am just going to do a little heroin tonight, maybe just 2 shots and then nothing for 2 weeks'
I think vices such as drugs and alcohol even if they are not addictive all boil down to one thing, and that is to escape and or change reality. Coffee, people need it to start their day as they cannot naturally anymore with the energy they have, smoking, people are stressed or bored because they are nor smoking, psychedelics, reality is boring and is more fun and more profound with them. It all comes down to wanting your reality changed for whatever reason.
Some seem to have a propensity for self destructive behaviour. In a very real sense self annihilation when shifted slightly into 'dharma addiction', enables, inspires and empowers the destruction of the hindrances
“Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again, come, come.”
Rumi (No sniggering from the sex addicts at the back)
:wave:
Funny business alcoholism. Someone further up mentioned that alkies drink because they're weak. I know alkies that've drank themselves onto the streets; that's a hard way to live. There's nothing soft to even lay your head on. Street alkies aren't weak, they're tough; you've got to be to endure those hardships.
Me on the other hand, I stopped drinking because I was weak, I just couldn't take any more pain and suffering, yet other alcoholics amaze me with their sheer determination and resilience. Last week I coerced an 'almost street alcoholic' to an A.A. meeting. He's a nice guy even when he's drunk; his guts are swollen due to his enlarged liver and he was telling me that last year he went to his sister's house at Christmas, and there was his nephew (a surgeon) who he hadn't seen since he was a baby. Michael (the alkie) said to the surgeon, "Ah, the last time I saw you I was changing your nappies", and the surgeon said, "In a year-or-two I will be changing your nappies. Please leave!".
If I was a betting man, I'd bet that Michael's a gonner, he views A.A. as 'the enemy' and he has no other options. But he must be tough to live the way he lives; he's definitely far from weak.
Maybe there's a paradox in there somewhere?
As for the Buddhist standpoint, meh, to each his own, I'm not an expert. I will say, though, that from what I've read even a small amount will affect a person's mental clarity (booze is a depressant) so there's that.
Listen to Tosh. Dude knows what he's talking about on this subject.
For example, most people when drunk lose their inhibitions and certain behaviours and thoughts begin to spill out unfiltered. As such, alcohol can become almost like an assessor of our progress - if you're drunk then you'll soon find out where exactly you are at, and i'm sure people around you will tell you! But if you get drunk and retain a peaceful, cheerful, loving state of mind then you can pretty much be assured that your practice is going well, at which point you probably are at a stage where giving up alcohol would be a real consideration.
To be clear, i'm not advocating drinking alcohol, nor saying that it should be a part of our spiritual practice, just that if you are wanting to drink alcohol then you may as well be benefiting from it until you are ready to leave it behind.
The tee-totaller's (by choice) brain 'lit up' only a little bit. The moderate drinker's brain 'lit up' a little bit more, but the alcoholic's brain was extremely 'lit up'. It kinda shows that our subjective experience of being drunk can be very different. Mrs Tosh says she doesn't like that 'out of control feeling', when she's drank too much, which I find strange, because when I drank, I felt IN CONTROL (even if I couldn't walk properly).
I once described drinking alcohol as a spiritual experience (and it could be for me) and Vinlyn said that my description was very sad and kinda undermined what a spiritual experience was. I think he's just not receptive to alcohol the way some folk are.
Once at a Buddhist lesson the monk was saying how much joy it was to love just one person, so just imagine how much joy we could get if we loved everyone. Later I told the monk that I had actually experienced that. I've been in the Naafi bar, surrounded by comrades, drunk, and I felt an almost overwhelming love for each one of them.
Half an hour later I was probably fighting some of them; shame really.