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Secular Buddhism? Religious Buddhism? Why not both? Or neither?

123578

Comments

  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    edited December 2013
    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    Dakini said:

    Nevermind said:

    So you also don't think the 4NTs are true? (Chaz "nonsense" being kind of true) That there can be a cessation of suffering?

    It's like psychotherapy; do you believe it can provide a cessation of suffering, a healing from one's neuroses? Or is that a religious belief?

    Religious practice is not as transformative as people tend to think, I believe.

    If you had some experience, you might not have to have faith that you are right.
    Your wrong, again. :p
    Prove it. :rolleyes:
    Lol, what, you don't believe me? Ye have little faith.

    But seriously, no proof is needed for anyone who's spent some time around religious practitioners, assuming they were paying attention of course.
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    So you also don't think the 4NTs are true? (Chaz "nonsense" being kind of true) That there can be a cessation of suffering?

    Nevermind said:

    So you also don't think the 4NTs are true? (Chaz "nonsense" being kind of true) That there can be a cessation of suffering?

    You are really struggling here. The 4nt are the Buddha's first teaching. You have 83,999 left to go.
    You are stuck in first gear.
    Here is a pretty good book on the subject:

    http://www.amazon.com/Turning-Wheel-Truth-Commentary-Teaching/dp/159030764X
    We've been most discussing Chaz and your "religious thinking" about the FNTs.
    Are you getting anywhere?
    Yes, I'm getting to know you and your religious thinking.

    You need to get out more. :lol:
    I usually respond to your posts while waiting in line for something, or while sitting on the pooper.
    Jeffrey
  • Nevermind said:

    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    So you also don't think the 4NTs are true? (Chaz "nonsense" being kind of true) That there can be a cessation of suffering?

    Nevermind said:

    So you also don't think the 4NTs are true? (Chaz "nonsense" being kind of true) That there can be a cessation of suffering?

    You are really struggling here. The 4nt are the Buddha's first teaching. You have 83,999 left to go.
    You are stuck in first gear.
    Here is a pretty good book on the subject:

    http://www.amazon.com/Turning-Wheel-Truth-Commentary-Teaching/dp/159030764X
    We've been most discussing Chaz and your "religious thinking" about the FNTs.
    Are you getting anywhere?
    Yes, I'm getting to know you and your religious thinking.

    You need to get out more. :lol:
    I usually respond to your posts while waiting in line for something, or while sitting on the pooper.
    You see, we have more in common that you thought!
    Jeffrey
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    So you also don't think the 4NTs are true? (Chaz "nonsense" being kind of true) That there can be a cessation of suffering?

    Nevermind said:

    So you also don't think the 4NTs are true? (Chaz "nonsense" being kind of true) That there can be a cessation of suffering?

    You are really struggling here. The 4nt are the Buddha's first teaching. You have 83,999 left to go.
    You are stuck in first gear.
    Here is a pretty good book on the subject:

    http://www.amazon.com/Turning-Wheel-Truth-Commentary-Teaching/dp/159030764X
    We've been most discussing Chaz and your "religious thinking" about the FNTs.
    Are you getting anywhere?
    Yes, I'm getting to know you and your religious thinking.

    You need to get out more. :lol:
    I usually respond to your posts while waiting in line for something, or while sitting on the pooper.
    You see, we have more in common that you thought!
    That we need to get out more?
  • Sorry. I was just washing my hands.
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    edited December 2013
    you can personal message each other!
    Jeffrey
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    @Anataman, some Buddhists do believe in God, as has been discussed here on the forum a number of times. I do, and I have known many others who do also, though overall we are in a minority.

    But in a sense, from my perspective, that's what makes secular Buddhism secular Buddhism -- that we don't ascribe to some standard model of Buddhism. We think for ourselves, and make our own decisions about what Buddhism is or should be.

    And, most of us don't try to shove secular Buddhism down anyone's throat. We just say, "Here's what we think...."
    lobster
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    I am not shoving anything down anyones throat - Be kind and help me understand your perspective - What is God @Vinlyn?
  • It does seem like a strange combination.
    Having a religious faith in God, and being a non religious Buddhist.
    People have reasons for thinking the way they do.
    The labels make things unnecessarily confusing.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    anataman said:

    I am not shoving anything down anyones throat - Be kind and help me understand your perspective - What is God @Vinlyn?

    First, I did not say that you were shoving anything down anyone's throat, but religious Buddhists often do.
    %
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    anataman said:

    I am not shoving anything down anyones throat - Be kind and help me understand your perspective - What is God @Vinlyn?

    First, I did not say that you were shoving anything down anyone's throat, but religious Buddhists often do.

    I do not believe that things -- like the earth, or the solar system, or the universe, or life -- happen by coincidence.

    As to Robot's comment about "having a religious faith in God"...he'd have to define that before I comment. But I will say that I do not believe in a micromanager God.



    MaryAnnelobster
  • vinlyn said:

    anataman said:

    I am not shoving anything down anyones throat - Be kind and help me understand your perspective - What is God @Vinlyn?

    First, I did not say that you were shoving anything down anyone's throat, but religious Buddhists often do.

    I do not believe that things -- like the earth, or the solar system, or the universe, or life -- happen by coincidence.

    As to Robot's comment about "having a religious faith in God"...he'd have to define that before I comment. But I will say that I do not believe in a micromanager God.



    I'm sorry vinlyn. I was assuming that believing in God was a religious faith.
    I was thinking of God as a creator.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    robot said:



    I'm sorry vinlyn. I was assuming that believing in God was a religious faith.
    I was thinking of God as a creator.

    Personally, I believe in a creator-God, but not a micromanager God.

  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    anataman said:

    I am not shoving anything down anyones throat - Be kind and help me understand your perspective - What is God @Vinlyn?

    First, I did not say that you were shoving anything down anyone's throat, but religious Buddhists often do.
    %
    Thank you for clarifying that. @Vinlyn
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    robot said:



    I'm sorry vinlyn. I was assuming that believing in God was a religious faith.
    I was thinking of God as a creator.

    Personally, I believe in a creator-God, but not a micromanager God.

    We'd all be pretty much robots (tehe) if there was a micromanager god wouldn't we...
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    anataman said:

    vinlyn said:



    I'm sorry vinlyn. I was assuming that believing in God was a religious faith.
    I was thinking of God as a creator.

    Personally, I believe in a creator-God, but not a micromanager God.

    We'd all be pretty much robots (tehe) if there was a micromanager god wouldn't we...

    What I mean by that is that I am skeptical of the concept of prayer. It seems to be that once you're here, it's up to you...which is actually quite parallel to much thinking in Buddhism. While I can be convinced about prayer, I have yet to see any worshipping Christian explain why some prayers are answered, others are not, or provide any evidence that something happened because of prayer.

  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    This is where I see that we misunderstand the power of a prayer. For me prayer is a meditation - to bring you to your true nature of awareness. People tend to pray when they are in need or are suffering. When you are in that state of awareness, there is a demand for an answer, but there is no one or thing to provide an answer.

    Praying when you are in need of nothing, is something else. When you pray for another to be delivered from there suffering - that is a powerful cause for change in the external and internal world. That is the boddhisattva in you.
    Jeffreycvalue
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    To be honest, I do sometimes pray...even though I am skeptical of any results. Sometimes I pray for something I need...like my health. Other times, as I think you are indicating it, I pray as a means of focused thought.
    anatamanJeffrey
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    Then there is a place for prayer, Amen...
    vinlyn
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I often found it interesting in Thailand when I would see Thai Buddhists bowing and "praying" to Hindu statues. I once asked a Thai friend why a Buddhist would do that. Paraphrased: It can't hurt. Maybe we're wrong.

    I also chatted with a number of Thai Buddhist friends about praying, and right-or-wrong they admitted that they did...and I've watched Thais praying for good luck in the lottery and the such.
  • Nevermind said:

    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    Dakini said:

    Nevermind said:

    So you also don't think the 4NTs are true? (Chaz "nonsense" being kind of true) That there can be a cessation of suffering?

    It's like psychotherapy; do you believe it can provide a cessation of suffering, a healing from one's neuroses? Or is that a religious belief?

    Religious practice is not as transformative as people tend to think, I believe.

    If you had some experience, you might not have to have faith that you are right.
    Your wrong, again. :p
    Prove it. :rolleyes:
    Lol, what, you don't believe me? Ye have little faith.

    But seriously, no proof is needed for anyone who's spent some time around religious practitioners, assuming they were paying attention of course.
    The thing is, I have seen people's lives changed dramatically by taking up religion.
    It happens all the time.
    Not always for the best, but that is only my opinion.
    Taking up Buddhism might cause someone to stop drinking or drugs. Their mental and physical health can improve. They can make new friends.
    anatamanJeffrey
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I'm curious -- do you think taking up Buddhism could change people's lives "not always for the best"?
    anataman
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    I'm curious -- do you think taking up Buddhism could change people's lives "not always for the best"?

    yes - if they are misguided

  • vinlyn said:

    I'm curious -- do you think taking up Buddhism could change people's lives "not always for the best"?


    I haven't had that experience. I don't know any Buddhists personally.
    I have had some bad experiences with born again Christians, but generally those were a result of me not accepting the new arrangement, in which I am going to hell and they aren't.

  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    anataman said:

    you can personal message each other!

    What should I say?
    Jeffrey
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    Dakini said:

    Nevermind said:

    So you also don't think the 4NTs are true? (Chaz "nonsense" being kind of true) That there can be a cessation of suffering?

    It's like psychotherapy; do you believe it can provide a cessation of suffering, a healing from one's neuroses? Or is that a religious belief?

    Religious practice is not as transformative as people tend to think, I believe.

    If you had some experience, you might not have to have faith that you are right.
    Your wrong, again. :p
    Prove it. :rolleyes:
    Lol, what, you don't believe me? Ye have little faith.

    But seriously, no proof is needed for anyone who's spent some time around religious practitioners, assuming they were paying attention of course.
    The thing is, I have seen people's lives changed dramatically by taking up religion.
    It happens all the time.
    Not always for the best, but that is only my opinion.
    Taking up Buddhism might cause someone to stop drinking or drugs.
    There are studies which indicate that religious belief can strengthen willpower, such that it helps in substance abuse and other naughty habits. This is because religion offers meaning. The meaning offered is like fuel, or a catalyst to activate fuel. It can be anything meaningful and indeed, doesn't even need to be religious.

    But for myself, by significantly transformative I was thinking about qualities like wisdom, compassion, and selflessness.

    What I find is that people who have a religious practice may be wise, compassionate, and selfless, but they were pretty much that way before starting. Foolish, sociopathic, and selfish people can go the full course in Buddhism and become priests and Zen masters, and they can pretty much remain that way. That's just the way it is, robot.
    JeffreyChaz
  • Nevermind said:

    anataman said:

    you can personal message each other!

    What should I say?
    You could say:
    I'm on the toilet now. Thinking of you! :)
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    anataman said:

    you can personal message each other!

    What should I say?
    You could say:
    I'm on the toilet now. Thinking of you! :)
    I never use exclamation points on the pooper.
    Invincible_summeranataman
  • _/\_
  • Nevermind said:

    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    Dakini said:

    Nevermind said:

    So you also don't think the 4NTs are true? (Chaz "nonsense" being kind of true) That there can be a cessation of suffering?

    It's like psychotherapy; do you believe it can provide a cessation of suffering, a healing from one's neuroses? Or is that a religious belief?

    Religious practice is not as transformative as people tend to think, I believe.

    If you had some experience, you might not have to have faith that you are right.
    Your wrong, again. :p
    Prove it. :rolleyes:
    Lol, what, you don't believe me? Ye have little faith.

    But seriously, no proof is needed for anyone who's spent some time around religious practitioners, assuming they were paying attention of course.
    The thing is, I have seen people's lives changed dramatically by taking up religion.
    It happens all the time.
    Not always for the best, but that is only my opinion.
    Taking up Buddhism might cause someone to stop drinking or drugs.
    There are studies which indicate that religious belief can strengthen willpower, such that it helps in substance abuse and other naughty habits. This is because religion offers meaning. The meaning offered is like fuel, or a catalyst to activate fuel. It can be anything meaningful and indeed, doesn't even need to be religious.

    But for myself, by significantly transformative I was thinking about qualities like wisdom, compassion, and selflessness.

    What I find is that people who have a religious practice may be wise, compassionate, and selfless, but they were pretty much that way before starting. Foolish, sociopathic, and selfish people can go the full course in Buddhism and become priests and Zen masters, and they can pretty much remain that way. That's just the way it is, robot.
    So you are saying people don't change?
    If you are a selfish child you will stay that way?
    What about your own children? Were they wise, and selfless as babies? Have they changed?
    Or is it that at a certain age your personality becomes permanent? What age is that?



  • jlljll Veteran
    I dont think any rational person believes that any monk?nun is infallible. I do defend the scriptures ie the pali canon against criticisms. Not because I believe it is infallible but because it is the basis of my believe. Your opinion is no better than the pali canon, in my opinion. The scripture ie the pali canon, is the basis of Buddhism. Without it, there is no Buddhism.

    Mixing and mashing religions is fine if all you want is to live an ordinary life/. But for serious practitioners, you have to choose and immerse your self . it is like going to university. If I can decide between medicine and engineering and fine arts. After 4 years of attending lectures of all the 3 courses and not taking any exams, I am neither a doctor, engineer or whatever.

    DaftChris said:

    On this forum (and on others that I won't mention for fear of retaliation :eek: ), like in real life, there seems to be this "battle" when it comes to secularism and religion.

    "We don't need silly superstitions. Just follow the 8FP and 5P. It will do you good to be more secular with your Buddhist practice".

    "No! Don't ignore what *insert sutra here* says. A rebirth in one of the hells must be avoided"!

    That being said, I would like to say that I understand the appeal of secular Buddhism and the rejection of more supernatural claims. However, I also understand the appeal of ritual, deity yoga, mantras, pujas, etc.

    With this in mind, why does there need to be (a bit) of a confrontation between these two seemingly opposite spectrums of Buddhist practice? Why can't one, say, be both secular and religious with their practice? Or neither?

    Let me use myself as an example. Let me start off by saying that, in the political sense, I'm definitely secular. I also do hold some secular Buddhist beliefs as well. I don't believe that scriptures or monks & nuns are infallible. I believe that all three are subject to criticism if A.) there is a passage we don't agree with or B.) a monk/nun says or does something that seems to go against what one views as right views, speech, etc. I also don't believe in literal Karma, and am agnostic to rebirth (although I do relatively believe in it). Humanism is also a fairly big part of my philosophy.

    However, I do hold many religious views as well. Leftover from my Hindu days, I like pujas and will start performing them soon. I believe in a mini-pantheon of deities (Hindu, Buddhist and otherwise) as Dharma protectors (not as the supreme god of the universe). I believe that ritual, when done mindfully, can help us center on our practice. I also can't help but to chant along with mantras when one begins and find great spiritual value in them. I also am giving Pure Land Buddhism a chance (even though I have my own interpretation of what exactly Amitabha and the Pure Land are); when, not even weeks ago, I would have discarded it due to it having a "savior figure".

    What is the point I'm trying to make with this? Well, despite the fact that we humans like to create a black and white duality with virtuality everything, there is no need for internet bickering over labels such as "secular" or "religious". Don't get me wrong, while I love a good discussion, and while they certainly have their place in vocabulary, it eventually gets to the point where the words are so overused, they they almost become meaningless.

    As practitioners of Dharma (this also includes Hindus, Sikhs and Jains), the general goal is to attain enlightenment/nirvana/moshka/liberation/union from the cycle of birth and death (literal or metaphorical). While, of course, what "enlightenment" exactly is is incredibly subjective, we are all pretty much in the same boat. We all suffer, we all have sorrow and anger. But we also experience joy and happiness as well. We are all Buddhists, no matter what words we use to label such. I think that's much more important than how one practices; as long as they practice with all of their heart and mind to the best of their abilities. That is much more important than whether one is "secular" or "religious".


    :om:

    JeffreyInvincible_summercvalueanataman
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    jll said:

    ...

    Mixing and mashing religions is fine if all you want is to live an ordinary life/. But for serious practitioners, you have to choose and immerse your self . it is like going to university. If I can decide between medicine and engineering and fine arts. After 4 years of attending lectures of all the 3 courses and not taking any exams, I am neither a doctor, engineer or whatever.

    Nothing wrong with being a fundamentalist.

    jll
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    Dakini said:

    Nevermind said:

    So you also don't think the 4NTs are true? (Chaz "nonsense" being kind of true) That there can be a cessation of suffering?

    It's like psychotherapy; do you believe it can provide a cessation of suffering, a healing from one's neuroses? Or is that a religious belief?

    Religious practice is not as transformative as people tend to think, I believe.

    If you had some experience, you might not have to have faith that you are right.
    Your wrong, again. :p
    Prove it. :rolleyes:
    Lol, what, you don't believe me? Ye have little faith.

    But seriously, no proof is needed for anyone who's spent some time around religious practitioners, assuming they were paying attention of course.
    The thing is, I have seen people's lives changed dramatically by taking up religion.
    It happens all the time.
    Not always for the best, but that is only my opinion.
    Taking up Buddhism might cause someone to stop drinking or drugs.
    There are studies which indicate that religious belief can strengthen willpower, such that it helps in substance abuse and other naughty habits. This is because religion offers meaning. The meaning offered is like fuel, or a catalyst to activate fuel. It can be anything meaningful and indeed, doesn't even need to be religious.

    But for myself, by significantly transformative I was thinking about qualities like wisdom, compassion, and selflessness.

    What I find is that people who have a religious practice may be wise, compassionate, and selfless, but they were pretty much that way before starting. Foolish, sociopathic, and selfish people can go the full course in Buddhism and become priests and Zen masters, and they can pretty much remain that way. That's just the way it is, robot.
    So you are saying people don't change?
    If you are a selfish child you will stay that way?
    What about your own children? Were they wise, and selfless as babies? Have they changed?
    Or is it that at a certain age your personality becomes permanent? What age is that?



    I wrote, and I quote:
    Religious practice is not as transformative as people tend to think, I believe.
  • vinlyn said:



    What I mean by that is that I am skeptical of the concept of prayer. It seems to be that once you're here, it's up to you...which is actually quite parallel to much thinking in Buddhism. While I can be convinced about prayer, I have yet to see any worshipping Christian explain why some prayers are answered, others are not, or provide any evidence that something happened because of prayer.

    There have been studies done in hospitals monitoring patients' recovery. Outside of the hospital, prayer circles were organized (some were non-local, scattered around the country), and the patients didn't know they were being prayed for. There was a control group as well. Those who were prayed for experienced more rapid recovery and better overall outcomes. Google Larry Dossey (MD) for his articles on this subject.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited December 2013
    In Tibetan there is no 'pray to'. There is just pray. In the language, I guess. My guru translates that as 'I open'. So you could say Buddha, I open.
    Dakini
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    vinlyn said:


    Personally, I believe in a creator-God, but not a micromanager God.

    So does that make you a deist? That still sounds lke a religious belief?
    Chaz
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    SpinyNorman, thanks, you taught me a new word. I had often used the word deism before, but before responding to you thought I'd better check the definition. Glad I did.

    No, I don't believe God abandoned the universe or gave up control over life. I don't believe that he can't exert influence on natural phenomena. (I do assume that Christ...and Buddha...and probably Mohammed, and others, were simply great teachers who were not supernatural).

    I just believe that God doesn't work the way it has been claimed that he works. Once we're created, it's pretty much up to us to make of life what we will.

    Yes, I am still religious, but in a different way than most. I feel comfortable walking into any Buddhist temple, any Protestant church, any Catholic church, any Unitarian church. I'm interested to go into Islamic mosques, although there are barriers to that, of course. Have been in Jewish mosques, and felt comfortable there. In all of those places I find a place I can focus. I accept what I can, and out the rest to the side.
    riverflow
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    edited December 2013
    Then what is god @ Vinlyn?

    Sincerely, I wish to understand what god means to you.

    I have my own concepts; but am open to all interpretation. I am just a vavasour. Enlighten me.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    anataman said:

    Then what is god @ Vinlyn?

    Sincerely, I wish to understand what god means to you.

    I have my own concepts; but am open to all interpretation. I am just a vavasour. Enlighten me.

    Maybe I can compare it to when I was a principal. I had about 75 teachers, 3 other administrators, 4 counselors, and numerous aides "under" me. I was responsible for creating an environment in which all those professionals and our students could flourish. But I couldn't micromanage each adult in the school, I couldn't personally handle every discipline issue. Day to day classroom management and teaching was up to the individuals. Self-discipline was expected of adults and students. Occasionally I could step in and lead the way, but you can't make dependent people independent by micromanaging them constantly. Similarly, I see God as the creator, and yes, "he" can control things, but takes a hands-off approach most of the time.

    But that's just my personal view. I could very well be all wrong.

    DaftChris
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    anataman said:

    Then what is god @ Vinlyn?

    Sincerely, I wish to understand what god means to you.

    I have my own concepts; but am open to all interpretation. I am just a vavasour. Enlighten me.

    Maybe I can compare it to when I was a principal. I had about 75 teachers, 3 other administrators, 4 counselors, and numerous aides "under" me. I was responsible for creating an environment in which all those professionals and our students could flourish. But I couldn't micromanage each adult in the school, I couldn't personally handle every discipline issue. Day to day classroom management and teaching was up to the individuals. Self-discipline was expected of adults and students. Occasionally I could step in and lead the way, but you can't make dependent people independent by micromanaging them constantly. Similarly, I see God as the creator, and yes, "he" can control things, but takes a hands-off approach most of the time.

    But that's just my personal view. I could very well be all wrong.

    Are you trying to insinuate that god the creator cant micromanage the lives of every being in the 100 billion galaxies in the universe? Blasphemy!
    caz
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited December 2013
    vinlyn said:


    Personally, I believe in a creator-God, but not a micromanager God.

    Definitely a religious belief, and not a Buddhist one.

    Believing in a God always seemed like adult belief in Santa Claus, when I was a kid. He knows when you've been naughty or nice, and metes out punishment accordingly (Heaven or Hell). I never could understand why adults would believe in a Santa Claus in the sky. Who, rumor had it, had a son named Jesus. That's exactly why Buddhism appealed to me at that age; no make-believe. Just logic.



    MaryAnne
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    Dakini said:

    vinlyn said:


    Personally, I believe in a creator-God, but not a micromanager God.

    Definitely a religious belief, and not a Buddhist one.

    Believing in a God always seemed like adult belief in Santa Claus, when I was a kid. He knows when you've been naughty or nice, and metes out punishment accordingly (Heaven or Hell). I never could understand why adults would believe in a Santa Claus in the sky. Who, rumor had it, had a son named Jesus. That's exactly why Buddhism appealed to me at that age; no make-believe. Just logic.



    and it's through my Buddhist practice that I came to a peace where I don't care if people do believe in a god or santa claus, nor do I look down upon them for it. I see the good that such belief can achieve, as well as the bad, where as before I only ever saw the bad and was much more judgmental about it. Of course growing up catholic ingrain the judgmental thing in ya.
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    anataman said:

    Then what is god @ Vinlyn?

    Sincerely, I wish to understand what god means to you.

    I have my own concepts; but am open to all interpretation. I am just a vavasour. Enlighten me.

    Maybe I can compare it to when I was a principal. I had about 75 teachers, 3 other administrators, 4 counselors, and numerous aides "under" me. I was responsible for creating an environment in which all those professionals and our students could flourish. But I couldn't micromanage each adult in the school, I couldn't personally handle every discipline issue. Day to day classroom management and teaching was up to the individuals. Self-discipline was expected of adults and students. Occasionally I could step in and lead the way, but you can't make dependent people independent by micromanaging them constantly. Similarly, I see God as the creator, and yes, "he" can control things, but takes a hands-off approach most of the time.

    But that's just my personal view. I could very well be all wrong.

    Thank you for sharing that with me (us!) @Vinlyn
    vinlyn
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Jayantha said:

    vinlyn said:

    anataman said:

    Then what is god @ Vinlyn?

    Sincerely, I wish to understand what god means to you.

    I have my own concepts; but am open to all interpretation. I am just a vavasour. Enlighten me.

    Maybe I can compare it to when I was a principal. I had about 75 teachers, 3 other administrators, 4 counselors, and numerous aides "under" me. I was responsible for creating an environment in which all those professionals and our students could flourish. But I couldn't micromanage each adult in the school, I couldn't personally handle every discipline issue. Day to day classroom management and teaching was up to the individuals. Self-discipline was expected of adults and students. Occasionally I could step in and lead the way, but you can't make dependent people independent by micromanaging them constantly. Similarly, I see God as the creator, and yes, "he" can control things, but takes a hands-off approach most of the time.

    But that's just my personal view. I could very well be all wrong.

    Are you trying to insinuate that god the creator cant micromanage the lives of every being in the 100 billion galaxies in the universe? Blasphemy!
    No. There's a difference between can't and doesn't.

    riverflow
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Dakini said:

    vinlyn said:


    Personally, I believe in a creator-God, but not a micromanager God.

    Definitely a religious belief, and not a Buddhist one.

    Believing in a God always seemed like adult belief in Santa Claus, when I was a kid. He knows when you've been naughty or nice, and metes out punishment accordingly (Heaven or Hell). I never could understand why adults would believe in a Santa Claus in the sky. Who, rumor had it, had a son named Jesus. That's exactly why Buddhism appealed to me at that age; no make-believe. Just logic.

    And that's your choice. I'm not trying to convince anybody. I was asked some questions.

    But no make-believe in Buddhism? :lol:
    riverflow
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    Dakini said:

    vinlyn said:


    Personally, I believe in a creator-God, but not a micromanager God.

    Definitely a religious belief, and not a Buddhist one.

    Believing in a God always seemed like adult belief in Santa Claus, when I was a kid. He knows when you've been naughty or nice, and metes out punishment accordingly (Heaven or Hell). I never could understand why adults would believe in a Santa Claus in the sky. Who, rumor had it, had a son named Jesus. That's exactly why Buddhism appealed to me at that age; no make-believe. Just logic.

    And that's your choice. I'm not trying to convince anybody. I was asked some questions.

    But no make-believe in Buddhism? :lol:
    Always a choice, but tell me ....

    If you fancy yourself a secular Buddhist, are you also a secular theist?
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Chaz said:


    Always a choice, but tell me ....

    If you fancy yourself a secular Buddhist, are you also a secular theist?

    To some extent.

  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    Nevermind said:


    Religious practice is not as transformative as people tend to think, I believe.

    Superficial religious practice. Agreed.

    Depends how deep one goes.

    As long as we operate from ego, we reside in ego.
    The transformed/transfigured/realized are partially ego and partly independent, with the real super heroes being gone, though that is beyond my pay scale.

    In a very real sense, speaking from experience, compassion, wisdom and a taste for fish, opera etc, can be developed and refined. Fish and opera are optional but compassion and wisdom are inevitable, also humility and other virtues, which are often self evident, masked or ignored.

    We are not talking about a hypothetical path. We are talking of what is trod by ordinary people on the road to awakening.

    A few prayers on Sunday and a bit of puja each day, bit of change. Complete way of life. A lifetime devoted to transformation and what can one expect? You get what you pay for. Karma I think they call it . . .

    :wave:
    Chazrobotriverflow
  • There are many different models of God which aren't necessarily some "old-man-in-the-sky" variety, even within Christianity-- some descriptions of which actually resemble tathata. Creation is an ongoing process every day in some of these models. It's a pity that many Christians (and non-Christians) are unaware of this, opting for the cheap default superstitious "God."

    When I read Eckhart, Pseudo-Dionysius, The Cloud of Unknowing or certain other Christian theologians and mystics, I feel almost as if they are speaking about Buddhism in another language.

    Actually, I've been re-reading Eckhart's sermons lately, translated by Maurice O'C Walshe. And if that name sounds familiar, that's because he converted to Buddhism and translated many Pali texts too. Not surprising one bit....

    lobster
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    Chaz said:


    Always a choice, but tell me ....

    If you fancy yourself a secular Buddhist, are you also a secular theist?

    To some extent.

    Cool ....

    Sounds like an oxymoron to me, but if can make it work .......
This discussion has been closed.