Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Why live at all?
followthepath
Explorer
in Philosophy
I suffer from extreme anxiety and I've also been diagnosed with depression. During most of the day I have to consciously try to distance myself from the terrible daydreams I have. Most of these daydreams involve me or a loved one being mistreated, but some of them are about me accidentally or intentionally severely hurting someone. Anyway, during these daydreams I feel nothing but despair and I have to try hard not to make plans to commit suicide.
I recently bought an Acceptance & Commitment Therapy workbook, which is helping me distance myself from the emotional pain. Also, I recently became a Buddhist and I'm actively trying to follow the Eightfold path to eradicate my suffering. But I still have one question: Why live at all? All day long, my mind shows me the terrible things that could happen to me or my loved ones. Why not just kill myself now and spare myself the pain? Suffering is a part of life for everyone and according to Buddhism, you have to take measures to eradicate suffering. Why bother living if you have to actively try not to suffer?
I'm sorry for the depressing post. I hope you guys can help me.
0
Comments
The truth is you have to develop compassion for yourself, and then become compassionate for those immediately around you, and then for those who you don't know or even dislike.
I am sorry to hear your mind is showing you 'vivid images ' of your personal death. Would it make you feel differently if you knew that others suffered from such fearful experiences and visions of death. I had a very difficult time today meditating on death and impermanence. But It settled.
metta
Thanks for responding. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that I should live despite the possibility of experiencing pain because I'm supposed to develop compassion for everyone? How did you arrive at that conclusion? And what difference does it make to the world whether I commit suicide or live compassionately?
Thanks for telling me that I'm not alone in experiencing anxiety.
Anything could happen. Anything positive or anything negative.
Depression is, among other things, terribly seductive. It can also be debilitating. Whatever it is, it needs to be addressed, not fled. And the most productive way of addressing it, I think, is to seek out psychological counseling.
First, get a thorough physical, then seek out a counselor.
There is no satisfactory answer to "why live at all?" until you find it for yourself. All the religious and psychological eyewash in the world cannot help. But if you consent to seek out help -- and not just on some Buddhist bulletin board -- then you are more than halfway home.
My strongest feeling is -- leave Buddhism out of it; find a counselor you find trustworthy and get to work. Like Buddhism, counseling takes patience and courage and doubt, but these are qualities you already possess, so ... exercise them.
Treat followthepath gently but firmly.
Best wishes.
My conclusions are drawn from my understanding of the nature of my self. It has taken 20 years to even begin to understand, what, why and when I do anything, and then I fall into various trappings that make me upset, that is why I practice buddhism.
I believe you should live at least to experience the truth that pain does not last forever, I do not have prior knowledge of your circumstances, but if you would like to clarify further, it would be an honour for me to listen to your plight.
I am saying nothing more or less than it would be a well motivated gesture on your behalf to try and develop compassion for your self - unless you do that, you will likely be unable to develop compassion for anyone else.
So in the event that I am possibly being misinterpreted I would like to make something clear and simple - everything you experience starts and ends with yourself. Your interaction with others has impact. Imagine what certain actions will do to your family and siblings etc
You are not worthless; far from it; others may require your help too, but you may be missing their cries for help if you are only attentive to the inner voice, that has no substance, and if you rechannel the energies stated and then we might have a meaningful dialogue
Forget about what the world may regard; polarity is just that
My girlfriends counselor said that riding emotions is a lot like riding waves. We just let go of our tensions and go wherever the universe wants you to go. The universe will help you. It is a benevolent universe though not always easy. Letting go a little bit will help you a little bit. Letting go a lot will help a lot.
Have you tried meditating? You may be pleasantly surprised. Grab onto the dharma as a life raft. It won't let you down if you can keep following it. The dharma is no other than the universe.
There is no answer to this question ...... in fact, logically, your conclusion may seem perfectly legit. But instead of seeing it from the philosophical standpoint, we must see it from the scientific standpoint. Philosophical questions are not necessarily valid. For instance, if I ask why is there poverty, the philosophical or religious answer may revolve around karma, sin, evil, etc. Not valid. The logical, scientific answer would entail understanding the nature of society, the economic and political structure - and thereby concluding as to why there is poverty.
Just an example. My point is, there is a difference between philosophical why and scientific why. The former is meaningless - it is like asking why are unicorns white and not black - the question itself is fundamentally wrong. So the answer - such as unicorns are not black because (insert reason) - will also be wrong.
Trust in science, logic. Then you won't be unhappy or suicidal. In fact, such questions have no meaning insofar as science is concerned. These are just philosophical snares.
What help is required?
Hi nice to virtually meet you, if you don't mind me asking are you getting help? Are you taking medication?
If not like others have advised please get help, there is light at the end of the tunnel.
You have to fight through the lethargy and help yourself, its worth it.
Personally, I think suicide as a way to exit one life and join another seems like a risky proposition. Whether it's true, we don't know, but there is a saying that a human birth in a time where a Buddha has presented the Dharma is extremely rare. I want as much time to refine my practice as I can get! Also, who knows what kind circumstances you would be reborn in, suicide or not.
@followthepath I truly believe as humans, we are hear to learn to love. Not romantic love, but how to love and practice compassion for all sentient beings. That we are meant to live a life of service to others, but that that can mean a number of things. Don't be hard on yourself with regards to following the Eightfold Path. It is something we practice and continually review and learn from. It isn't something you set as a goal to 100% follow it each day, because if you set that bar you are going to cause suffering on yourself when you fail, because it's inevitable. The most important thing is to understand it and evaluate your life with it on an ongoing basis. Try not to be averse to your feelings, the more you try to push they away the harder they will push back. I'm sorry you are struggling so. I hope the things you are doing will help and that if needed, you will seek further help to get through it all. It can be helpful to practice Tonglen for yourself, as well. Or picture Buddha or another teacher practicing it for you.
http://www.alternet.org/books/youre-making-your-depression-worse-self-help-bringing-us-down?paging=off¤t_page=1#bookmark
As I said before, these arguments won't work. What if a person's position in life makes sadness outweigh joy? My point is, logic (far from helping) will usually work against what you're trying to convey. So living is essentially a matter of faith - meaning, even though there is strife and misery, we continue to harbor a desire to live ..... for some reason (call it survival instinct or whatever else).
Hello,
you should not use the 8fold path in your psychical codition. It might even get worse.
Make a therapy to get rid of these sysmptoms and then start meditating the 8foldpath.The reason why we are here is to be found in buddhist Genesis. Humans are supposed to have two selfes, the first is the physical and the second is the spiritual onne or it is called Lightbeing. These lightbeings are of cosmic origin.
This is not my invention, it is written down in Dighanikayo, the Longer Collection of the
Pali-Canon.
The teaching of gotamo buddho is a tool to change consciousness until the 8 Jhana.
These are only exercises, once reached they make themself obsolete.
anando
Dear @Followthepath, I am going to take what you are saying literally and seriously.
What you are describing is a medical emergency. Seek professional help immediately. If you do not have the financial ability to do so, please turn to charity or religious organizations, whether you agree with their dogma or not. That is not important in your present state. Even if "official" professionals are out of reach to you, there must be some counselor somewhere near you who has some experience dealing with your affliction.
This truly has little to do with any philosophy/religion and is in a different realm. If the need to live is not self-evident, the problem is at the biological level and nothing anyone tells you in books or discussion boards is going to carry much weight. Modern medicine and therapy have ways of dealing with the associated biology and they get better every year.
If you want Buddhist advice, I'll put this in Buddhist terms for you. Buddhism is all about: seeing the moment as it is, accepting it for what it is and taking the correct action to help the moment. All Buddhist practices have one purpose: develop that one skill. There is absolutely nothing else to "Buddhism".
Your situation as it is that you are ill and the illness is lifethreatening. Accept that you cannot help yourself through regular means. The correct action is to go to those who can help you: doctors, psychotherapists or counselors. You would certainly do that if the illness was in your foot or your intenstines, right?
I sincerely wish you well.
I would like to think that @followthepath has some kind of insight and could find the right help if desired.
However, it would be nice to receive clarification on the threads objective. Can you do tha @followthepath, and perhaps, someone here can suggest a more appropriate response, or are there other factors undisclosed?
Metta
Thanks everyone for your responses. Jason, what you're saying about rebirth is interesting to me. I've read a little about the Buddhist concept of rebirth and I don't really understand it. Is it the same as reincarnation? How can we be reborn if there's no self?
The Buddhist concept of karma also confuses me. From what I've read, it kind of seems like the Buddha taught that every bad thing that happens to somebody is their own fault. I thought that was kind of unfair. What about starving kids in impoverished countries? If they were born into unfortunate circumstances how is that their fault? Anyway, Jason, do you think that if I killed myself I'd experience karma in the next life?
I call myself a Buddhist because I accept the four seals and try to live according to the Eightfold path. But karma and rebirth baffle me. I wonder if the fact that I don't understand those concepts means I'm not truly a Buddhist.
I'm currently taking psychiatric medications for my anxiety and depression. Thank you all for your concern.
Why live at all?
because now I'm here, it would be a dreadful waste if I didn't put it to good use.....
>
I think you've got that a bit skewed, hun.
karma, literally means, quite simply, volitional, deliberate or wilful action.
Vipaka is the consequence, so everything you do, starts with your deliberating it in your head.
The Buddha also said that speculating on the Law of karma was largely fruitless because you'd go nutz trying to figure it all out.
Which is why we don't really speculate on starving kids and impoverished countries.
because we can't answer your question on the matter, and neither can anyone else.
self, as we typically define it, is all that we feel ourselves to be. It's what identifies us. It's what makes us "us" so to speak. It's all our experiences and feelings and thoughts and emotions, perceptions, ego, everything we think we are. Except in Buddhism, all that stuff isn't real, it doesn't exist. The only thing that exists is (hard to explain for me) the background unconscious. The very deepest part of us that contains our karmic imprint, and our past lives. It isn't our identity, it's much deeper than that. THAT is what is reborn. Not the rest of everything we consider ourselves to be.
I do believe it is said if you take your own life that yes, their are negative karmic consequences to that. But I don't have a source off the top of my head but that might be just from reading and not sutras/suttas. There is another discussion on the board right now regarding karma that you might find interesting. You have to remember Buddhism isn't just about right now. Well, it is, LOL, but where we are right now also includes causes and conditions that existed prior to this birth. So, in part, where we are is a result of our actions in our last life. You will find Buddhists who believe in the "if you starved someone else you will eventually be born into a life where you are the one who starves" and you will find others who do not believe that. I'm not sure, myself. It's not really to do with fairness, though, as far as we consider fairness to be, I don't think. None of the suffering in life is really ever fair.
And no, your questions about either of those doesn't in any way make you not a Buddhist. Many, if not most, people have questions about those same topics, especially at the start. Just keep practicing, meditate in a way that works for you. You will probably find some things that you cling to now will start to fall away (including beliefs) and you will probably also find that your understanding changes. The only thing you can really do is be open to the idea that what you believe now about those 2 topics, or any others, might change as you practice. As long as you can be open to that, that is all you need to do. Even if you can't do that yet, don't worry about it.
good
we get a human life now and this is the good chance that we can practice Noble-Eightfold-Path and stop Rebirth and eradicate suffering
however first we have to enter into the Noble-Eightfold-Path by practising normal- eightfold-path
practising nomal-eightfold-path means practising virtue, concentration and Insight
by doing so one day we get Noble Right View and from then on we can practice Noble Eightfold Path which helps to stop Rebirth and stop suffering
so while we are alive we must practice normal-eightfold-path to get the Noble Right View and then practice Noble-Eightfold-Path to stop Rebirth to stop suffering
so this moment that we get as our life is the precious moment that we can use to stop suffering
(hope you get the answer to the question 'why we live at all?')
mind is full of fanatics
we all have them
what we have to do is remind the mind 'this is just a thought in the mind so i must let go of it'
each time you do this you will see 'you do not suffer because of that thought' any more
get rid of suffering of that thought is then and there
I think the point of life is to point out we are living - now. Only then we can stand in a place where we can reflect on such things. The world can be viewed as mechanistic, but some people can and do transcend the springs, cogs and coils that have constrained our reality and stipulated that we are nothing more than divine machines, or in an infinite monkey cage, with a pre-programmed sense of self-determination, and no free-will.
Now it has been pointed out we are living - lets get into a more full and frank discussion of life, and lets not take a polarised opposing view from the outset, lets see other points of view, and whilst we are at it lets get to know each other, perhaps have a cup of tea together, whilst we discuss it. HEY IF YOU WANT TO COME AROUND TO MINE AND HAVE A MEDITATION SESSION - THAT WOULD BE NICE - THE INVITATION IS OPEN. but not tomorrow - my in-laws are here and they don't get the meditation thingy. lol
I bet in Plato and Socrates in their time there was plenty of time to lounge around and discuss the physis, eating olives, bread, and drinking wine. Now we are all too busy.
Sorry, @followthepath, I don't have time to answer all of your questions, but if you're interested, you can find some of my thoughts about kamma, rebirth, and what get's reborn here, here, and here.
Hi @followthepath!
Why live at all? Because we have to!! We don't know why we're here and sometimes dukkha, suffering is there, but there's more to life than that. YOU are the one that can make the difference. You are choosing every day if you'll be happy or not. You can control the way you look at things, your reactions, the way you tell yourself the story.
Life can be wonderful, too and like @yagr said "Anything could happen. Anything positive or anything negative."
The Buddha was a very pragmatic man and would not squander his time with metaphysical speculations. Don't ponder on "why live at all." JUST LIVE! Live this moment. Go out for a walk. Read a book. Talk to someone. See a film. Going out of your rut, just going out when you feel like staying inside watching your belly button could make a difference.
Some things don't depend on you but many do. Try to expand the circle of your choices. If you can't handle it all alone, look for help. Someone out there is waiting to hold out their hand to you!! All you have to do is ask for help!!
The Buddha was very clear "Guard your mind against negative thoughts." He was right that your mind, out of control, is your worst enemy. Don't buy into the negative chatter. Believe the positive stuff too. Remember how he was tempted again and again on the night before his enlightenment. We all have to battle the demons of negativity.
Kill yourself? And miss out on the wonderful things that are waiting to take place in your life? And miss out on the wonderful things that are probably taking place NOW and go unnoticed by your radar?
Think twice. We're all in this together.
Why live? Because there is joy waiting for you out there, even though you can't see it yet. Only the living have a chance to experience this joy.
It gets better. It really does.
Good news. Let the dancing commence . . .
Yep. That's the plan. I think it is called 'The Buddhist Path'
~Lama Shenpen
♪♫•¨•.¸¸❤¸¸.•¨•♫♪
Will be dedicating my morning practice to @followthepath
♪♫•¨•.¸¸❤¸¸.•¨•♫♪
. . . and those in difficulties. Urge others to do the same. Oh you do? Of course . . . [Lobster puts on dunce cap and goes back to the 'duh' corner]
OM MANI PEME HUM HRIH
So, followthepath, can you give us any feedback on how you are feeling?
Metta
No doubt about it, that is a Bodhisattvic sized load of karma you are carrying. We start birthed only by the karmic inertia of ignorance.
Why live at all?
Living is a chance to bring resolution to that inertia. As a Meditation practitioner moves from worldly self interest towards a more spiritually based selflessness, what one formally experienced as ones personal suffering actually evolves into ones very purpose for existing.
I am glad that you posted this because I have been diagnosed with severe major depressive disorder, been on and off medication, gotten myself into situations that I shouldn't have gotten myself involved in, have extreme guilt over stuff, and tried to kill myself (don't mean to sound sad or morbid) 5 times. When I started reading more about Buddhism, I become more aware of how my actions affect the world. It does get hard for me sometimes because I have excessive guilt over stuff and makes me want to die at times. I understand why you be would asking this question because it would be so much easier to get rid of the pain through suicide. However, I agree with genkaku. Leave Buddhism out of it. Buddhism is a PATH, not something that can be understood without that path. So, thinking that you should commit suicide to end the pain (I definitely understood where you're coming from, but I am going to tell you that it's not worth it and need to definitely continue seeking help because it does get easier and better over time) is incompatible with Buddhism because Buddhist philosophy says that you can reduce the pain. So, my advice to you (and hopefully this helps) is to think in karmic terms. You help yourself and because you help yourself, you help others. You help others in ways that you wouldn't think probably think about, but in the end, you do help others.
Exactly so. We have people here who are dying, some too soon, recovering alcoholics, the overly anxious, the manically depressed. There may be some normals but that is just showing off . . . One of the inspiring things is how cyber contacts do listen, do care, do support each other. It is a ripple effect.
Sometimes people do not know how valuable they are. We need all the Boddhisattvas we can get. Dukkha is hard going at times. When you find joy, the contrast is what makes it more intense . . . so to speak . . .
This is just a rationalization. Truth is, living is a matter of faith. Logic doesn't apply. Sorry to be blunt, @lobster, but let's be realistic, shall we? If you convince a depressed person through logic (that life is worth living), the very same logic could be used prove the opposite. It is a double-edged sword. That's why it's better to just accept these things on faith, and not think or analyze too much.
"life is not worth living" is a distortion. So a person using their own faculties can see for theirself it is a distortion. It is not something that you need argue about, rather it is something they can see for themself.
~fox in the snow by Belle and Sebastian
Sorry to be blunt, lobster, but let's be realistic, shall we?
Ladies first. IMHO the mentally ill are not able to discern their disability, they do not wish to face it. Just as the dying wish to avoid death. The blunt wish to be treated as if sharp. The alcoholics are at least not street drunks, the drug takers at least not low life junkies etc. We rationalise our situation. We deal with it as best we know how. At the moment @betaboy your two edged sword may be blunt on one side . . .
@Jeffery exposes, knows and acknowledges his demons. Inspiring. @dhammachick is dying and joshing and working. Many other examples of practical efforts. How wonderful. You too, I feel are trying to come to terms with 'the black dog' . . .
So two sided sword wielder . . . are you willing to overcome your demons or just mine? I have plenty to spare . . .
The truth my friends is we are not able to face the bluntness of swords, until cutting into our self
. . . look after yourself.
En Garde
Ok @betaboy I'll be blunt - you are a self centred, attention-whoring pain in the arse. I rarely even read your posts anymore because it's all about you, which, in my experience, is the opposite of the goal of Buddhism.
Having said that, @lobster has summed up things quite well. The difference between what my fave crustacean thinks and what I think is that I don't think you are dealing with "the black dog" - I think you're deliberately being the way you are, and as such, I have skimmed a lot of your posts recently because I am starting to put a permanent dent in my desk at work and I don't want to pay to replace it.
If by your logic I accepted my diagnosis on faith and didn't think or analyze, then I wouldn't be here. I'd have topped myself last May. But instead of that, I had a massive cry and cracked the shits and then, when I calmed down, I looked at my situation RATIONALLY and decided I needed to get my shit together and make the most of my time left by being present and mindful in the here and now with my daughter and my family. Which is what I am doing. Is it easy? F**k no. Do I appreciate my life each day? Absolutely.
I truly believe that I have done more and learned more in my life in the last 11 months than the 38 years that have preceeded it. So I call shenanigans on your post and your outlook on the OP's question.
@followthepath - please get some professional help. I have toyed with the concept of suicide and it's a dark and nasty place to be. I really do feel your pain and I wish I could say something that would make it better. But I can't. Not on an internet forum. But you are amongst great people here. I've never met anyone here in person, but I can tell you, they have helped me immensely with their empathy, suggestions and just saying "It sucks but we're thinking of you" has cheered me up and slapped me back into reality when I've needed it. I don't know where you are located, but if you're in Australia and would like to, PM me and I can give you some links to some really helpful links in Australia.
In metta,
Raven
I am sorry you're hurting. I understand your frustration, but there is no need to lash out at me. I am not your enemy. This is a discussion forum where we try to see the same issue from different angles. Logic may have helped you, but others may find more comfort in faith. Logic may convince a person that death is better than life (since life is full of pain and death is the end of all that pain). But faith will convince a person that, despite this pain, life is beautiful and must be lived to the fullest. That's all I am trying to say.
I'm not hurting, I'm giving you the blunt truth you asked for in a previous post.
There is every need.
Some are more needy . . .
Really? This is what you said in your previous post (your exact words): @betaboy I'll be blunt - you are a self centred, attention-whoring pain in the arse.
The above are personal attacks. You are not merely stating the truth (whatever that is). You're making personal attacks.
Indeed.
Nothing else seems to work for you, to be blunt. What would you recommend for those unskilful at sword wielding?
Guns?
And, such criticisms have come up before. More than once. And you seem to make no effort to learn from them.
May I suggest that Buddhists need to be open-minded and to at least consider criticisms?
It's rhetoric in the service of a good cause, i.e., ending the suffering of suicidal ideation.
The fact that rhetoric can also be used in the service of a bad cause, i.e., fostering suicidal ideation, is irrelevant to the positive intent here, just as knife's potential as a weapon is irrelevant when it's being used to perform surgery.
It does all come down to faith, but that faith can be manipulated in skillful ways.
Life's an adventure really, and if you see every problem as a mental everest, you will be standing on top of the world all the time.
It seems a bit of a shame that @betaboy is an advocate of suicide. I am starting to see his world view as one of being shackled to an anchor and dangling it over the edge of a boat in centre of the pacific ocean, in a storm. very unhealthy.
I agree with @dhammachick that anyone contemplating suicidal thoughts and ideas needs professional counselling, and not the views of people who tout faith as the only way to live.
Takes the skill out of it.....
@Followthepath if you want to talk to someone who has been diagnosed with chronic anxiety disorders since the age of 12, just message me in the PM section whenever and we can just talk about day to day things.
Yes. I'm treating you the same way you treat others? Pretty shitty isn't it?