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This is interesting re atheism
vinlyn
Colorado...for now Veteran
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/06/24/all-in-the-family-not-for-atheists/?hpt=hp_t4
A new poll indicates that about half of Americans don't want an atheist in the family. Oh oh. In fact, atheists were the most stigmatized group in the poll.
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Comments
Interesting how?
Were you surprised?
People shun what scares 'em.... :rolleyes: .
I don't think it's fear.
I think people find atheists annoying. They shun what annoys them.
Surprised that other minority groups (for wont of a better term) fared better than atheists.
Of course, there are so many VOCAL atheists that, I think, give atheism a bad name. Atheists can be very strident.
God told me he doesn't believe in Richard Dawkins
But don't tell my Psychiatrist that.
said:
I think that's a big issue. Even people with no particular beliefs are feeling nagged by militant atheists.
@citta -- I agree. It's almost as bad as being nagged by other believers.
I agree, i think the vocal level of some impacts the group as a whole. Those who don't know personally any atheists, see the people suing schools to take God out of the pledge at every turn, and all the other similar things, that is what they think of when they think atheism. Nothing to do with their beliefs, but I wouldn't want to associate with a lot of those people, either.
Non -affiliated is the fastest growing segment of the population here...
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/09/survey-one-in-five-americans-is-religiously-unaffiliated/comment-page-1/
I'm sorry you feel that way. ..
..
I do and will support any legal means. Ever heard of captive audience?
Are you 'forced" tp participate or listen to things you don't believe in?
My family and I are...all the time. In federal buildings....schools....
Nevermind....I'm off.....
@Vastmind, all I can tell you is that in the school (and county) where I was principal, there was never anything religious mentioned other than "under God" in the Pledge, for which students were not required to participate or stand. But, on the other side, I had choral teachers who would insist on including Christmas CAROLS in the annual holiday concert till I put my foot down by bringing a Muslim parent in and asking my choral teacher -- face to face -- "Why are you making my Muslim daughter sing praise to Jesus Christ?" That solved that for all time during my tenure.
I am much more offended each year when I attend our annual HOA meeting and I have to sit through a Christian prayer, even though I consider myself Buddhist/Christian.
Militant anything is annoying as hell. But maybe nothing changes without a minority group making spectacles of themselves. When I was little I remember my parents talking about 'womens' lib' with eye rolling and disgust. My father said "I'd rather kiss a horse than kiss a liberated woman!"
I have a friend on FB who splatters her wall with atheist memes. A lot of them are rude and insulting, however much I secretly agree.
My grandmother said once "Everyone believes in God!" and there might have been some truth in that -- not that everyone DID but that in general, folks made that assumption. Not anymore!
The annoying rudeness gets a good amount of attention, which is necessary for the idea to fledge and fly. For myself, I won't participate in what is rude or demeaning to believers but I'm deeply relieved and GLAD for Hitchens et al making idiots out of themselves for the sake of putting atheism out there and in the face of society.
The way to end those arguments is to say, loudly "Well, I couldn't agree more...! Now, who's for a cuppa - ?!"
This poll says a lot about the prejudiced against atheists. Sure, there's annoying atheists, but there's also fundamentalist religious groups. It's ignorant to judge an entire group of people based on the behavior of a few.
Well, I for one have an almost exclusive raft of atheist friends, and truth to tell, none of them behave in this way.
Anyone 'fundamental' and strident in their approach is going to attract resentment, hostility and resistance, no matter what their religious persuasion (including non-religious).
The main original point of discussion was to see the ratio of Americans who have, it seems, decide that all and any atheist is a persona non grata.
Whether they are strident, militant fundamental loudmouths or not.
We like to take black or white sides to every single issue, no matter how many levels of gray there are.
Part of the problem is that for those who do not understand others' beliefs well, they tend to be swayed by what they hear and what is shoved in their faces most often is what the more strident members of belief groups say.
Just a little background... The pledge did not start out with 'God' in it. It was later added....
http://www.ushistory.org/documents/pledge.htm
From the OP ...
“There is a stigma against atheism because there is so much misinformation about atheists,” Muscato said in an e-mail. “Atheists don't hate your god, we aren't evil, and we're nor immoral; we are simply not convinced that your god exists.”
....The reasons for this animosity toward atheists are multifaceted, he said.
For one, religion has been a major part of American culture since the country was founded, and many Americans continue to associate nonreligiosity with immorality.
Further, thanks to practices such as the Pledge of Allegiance, many Americans associate God and religion with patriotic values and atheism with being un-American.
That said, I remember a fellow Catholic who, upon learning that I had embraced Buddhism, put her hand on my arm and in that "I feel so sorry for you, you poor wretched, misguided sinner, you..." said, Don't worry, Fede, I will pray for you tonight."
To which I replied "Why thank you Margaret! And I will chant some mantras for you too!"
She actually recoiled as if I had burnt her with a hot frying pan.....
"Don't you dare!" she almost yelled. I quietly replied, "Well, likewise."
(I would add that I don't see my interaction with her now, as particularly skillful, in hindsight. It felt right at the time, but I would definitely do things differently given a repeat opportunity!)
I tell Christians I pray for them. And if asked how I do that granted that I am Buddhist so I tell them I pray to God for Christians and to Buddha for Buddhists. For me prayer is totally non-intellectual so it doesn't matter who I pray to presuming that I am not praying to a pile of dog shit or something.
I know what you mean, but I find for myself, that I've become a lot more forgiving in those situations.
On the other hand I'm also a bit more circumspect about where I place myself. I don't live in Colorado springs because findamental christianity coloring the socio/political scene in ways id rather not endure. None my circle of friends or associates would offera prayer prior to secular affairs. But, if I find myself in such a situation, I just roll with it.
I save my umbrage for more impotant things.
I'm well aware of that.
I will know the USA has come to its senses when it bans creationism (as a justified and official explanation of the origin of the world) from being taught in all schools, just as we have done here.
And yet, ALL people judge EVERYONE else who's different from them based on that criteria. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, Pagans, Pastafarians, Kalathumpians - pick a group, you'll still get shit heaped on you from one of the others who is misinformed. Welcome to life.
Metta,
Raven
_ /\ _
Well yes, @dhammachick, there is prejudiced and judgement surrounding just about any group. I was merely pointing out that there tends to be a particular degree of misunderstanding surrounding atheism.
Um...ok. I have no way of knowing what people do and don't know.
I was simply weaving in the OP with information. Cited information that was on topic.
I was not aware of it...not until my 20's. We were made to say the pledge, but never taught the history of it.
And I was pointing out that it's not just atheism.
It's all perspective people. There are so many other more important things in the world to get butt hurt over than what other faceless and nameless people think about your beliefs.
We know hun... We're just chewing shit to see if it ever gets palatable....
For most of my life I've been classified as an atheist, though to myself I've always been a "seeker of truth", and today it's "Buddhist+Humanist+Skeptic"... I understand that the primary issue here in America is separation of church and state. The atheists, militant and otherwise, who are speaking out are generally speaking out against encroachment of religion into government or public schools. IMHO they're right to fight for separation of church and state, though they could do with some PR! There are Christian organizations that are also on that side. We're of all stripes here in the States, and Christianity and/or the Christian God was never part of the arrangement here (the Constitution).
And yeah, atheists are largely demonized and misunderstood. Some of it they deserve (mostly to do with tone/approach), but not the vast majority. Even if they were polite about it, there are a lot of people that would still be offended by their very existence. People that can't contemplate that a category of human being can exist that doesn't believe in some higher power. I just shake my head, no clue where things are going or even where this sentence is... oh there it is, the end.
Oh, of course there are other issues that may be of more important, @dhammachick. Thing is, public opinion does inform the way a society functions. If we have a society that is misinformed and prejudiced against atheists, that will inform its choices surrounding them. Looking at this poll, there seems to be pretty widespread prejudiced against atheists. Any time there's widespread prejudiced, it's important to discuss that prejudiced.
Quoth the article: "According to separate studies, atheists are more likely to face job discrimination, political pushback and general distrust."
Maybe there are bigger fish to fry, but this is a fish, nonetheless.
I was very young when I read Nietzsche's "Thus spoke Zarathustra," and was very impressed with his theory of the Superman.
A man that was so self-reliant, that he was able to stand on his two feet without depending on the concept of a God. A man that appealed to his inner strength, rather than outsource a superpower outside himself.
Nietzsche believed that relying on a God undermined Man's capacity to rise above his limitations and take responsibility for his life.
I have to say Nietzsche's concept has entrenched deeply in my subconscious. And Sartre's "Existentialism is a Humanism" put the cherry on the cake.
And the Buddha's parable of the Arrow even more.
I don't consider myself an atheist but I don't need a God in my equation to a more self-fulfilled life.
I try not to be too vocal about my godless contentment, but like @federica, I have a couple of friends who are too vocal of their pity for my soul's perdition, so in these circumstances it gets difficult for me not to get defensive of my point of view.
My idea is non-believers get too vocal, because believers sometimes work double shift on them.
Interaction would be easier if we learnt to respect each other's beliefs instead of trying to get the other to think like us.
That said, I am rather surprised to find a big majority of Americans are such staunch believers that they would have difficulty accepting an atheist in the family over other minority groups.
The question is – it seems to me – what my belief system says about people who disagree with that particular (my) belief system.
As a Buddhist I would see them as ignorant. Ignorance can be solved. It may take a couple of lifetimes or a couple of thousand of lifetimes, but in the end they will see that I (the dharma) was right. I have no problem with them. Maybe I can help them, or maybe not right now.
As an Atheist I would see people who disagree with me as naïve, irrational and hopeless. That could be why as an atheists I can be so annoying. I really feel superior, I guess.
As a Christian I can see non-believers as either still savable or not-savable. The savable I should be kind with. The non-savable people I keep away from me. (I actually was in a sermon where the reverent visualized this by keeping an imaginary dirty diaper far away from him and pinching his own nose. That’s how we should keep those hopelessly lost people away from us.)
That’s how I could maybe understand this poll.
Atheists can have (and express) this superior notion about themselves. And that makes them the not-savable kind of people in the eyes of good Christian people. So they want to stay away from them.
A tiddlywink in the scheme of things. But, you go right ahead.
Polls like this tend to be pretty biased though.
How many Americans were asked? What kind of demographics are we talking about here?
What type of person answers these polls and what type has no answer?
I would wager that most polls are manipulated to show the pollers desired results.
Exactly ^^^
I just had a weird discussion with my neighbor. She's a fairly liberal Christian and knows I am Buddhist/Christian. We got to talking (and not for the first time) about various religions, and I brought up our HOA president saying a Christian prayer before HOA meetings, and that I didn't approve of it because there were probably Jews and people of non-Christian beliefs in our community. She thought they should just leave if they didn't like a prayer being said. Hmmmmm. And that maybe "foreign kids" who might be Muslims (for example) should go to a different schools so they wouldn't have to participate in Christmas pageants, etc., and also it wouldn't restrict "regular" kids from doing those religious things.
Sigh
You beat me to it. There were a lot of comments about how the militancy of some as the reason atheists are cast out. I feel like the perceived association with immorality has more to do with it. Also, good point about the patriotism.
Its always interesting to see the views of these issues coming from across the other side of the Atlantic.
Having lived through a period in the UK's history when a dogmatic, monochrome Christianity was the norm, at least was paid lip service to....
And now living in age when Christians form a mocked minority in the UK, and cynicism and lack of positivity are ubiquitous, I would suggest that Americans are very careful what they wish for.
Apt.
Healthy atheist sent to hospital anyway.
^^^ Sadly, I doubt there will be a global, social media uproar.
"Mr Bala, a chemical engineering graduate, was forcibly committed to a mental institution, but was able to contact activists using a smuggled phone.
IHEU spokesman Bob Churchill said the group was concerned about his "deteriorating condition" and called for his "swift release".
The protest against Mr Bala's detention is being led in the UK by the Anglican ( Episcopalian ) Church.
The protest against Mr Bala's detention is being led in the UK by the Anglican ( Episcopalian ) Church.
This is much more impressive than my 'colony of ants' or 'business of ferrets', although interspecies co-existence seems somewhat easier and less problematic- at least as far as the biscuit barrel is concerned.
I look forward to the day, frankly. Well, not to Christians or anyone being a mocked minority, but to a more proper balance. It's only been in the last 30 or so years that Christians even VOTED in the states, they were apparently encouraged not to until the early 80's when the neo-conservatives bootstrapped American Christians into their voting base. Those Christians have been made fools of, have ended up voting to stop funding social services (health care, housing, food stamps) which are central elements of the Christian ethos -- taking care of the poor.
We in the UK have little experience of that kind of Christianity..even when it was a major force the particular variety most prevalent actually led much social reform.
I have never been persecuted by atheists . . . religionists all the time (bless them).
Agree with domineering certainty, have cup of tea, move on. Good plan. :wave: .
I'm an agnostic with atheist leanings, i.e. I'm not quite sure what's really going on, I'm open to a satisfactory answer, but I doubt there's one out there.
I'll agree I share a good number of atheistic things on Facebook and such, and I've grown a bit more...I guess militant as time as passed as I see all these religious (vast majority of them Christians) people spouting nonsense about how God saved this person and God saved that one. At the very least, it bothers the hell outta me because the actual humans responsible for an act are disregarded in favor of God saving the bloody day. Example: Engine blows on plane, plane makes rough landing, all survive with minor injuries at worst. What do people say? THE HAND OF GOD SAVED HELPED THEM DOWN. Actually, it was the badass pilot with nerves of steel and years of experience that kept everyone alive. It's messed up to me. The most annoyingly religious people are the same that piss me off the most in other aspects. Being a pretty good liberal, I find that these Christians I most despise are also conservative, hate on Obama for everything whether he had something to do with it or not, often racist, hypocrites, conspiracy theorists (Obama is illuminati/muslim/Al Qaeda/not American are some of the common ones) moderately illiterate, don't seem to follow logic, etc. So when I'm really frustrated by something like that, I might get a little aggressive. Or when I hear the occasional story about those uncommon but still real families who neglect their children or something because God will take care of them. Oh, and one of my favorites are the religious ones who preach kindness and love and all that yet don't like black people, especially since Obama became president, and take particular offense to "Allahu akbar" despite they themselves commenting on news stories like "GOD is great"
This actually turned more into me venting here and I apologize for that, but I'm a bit frustrated is all. Also, I used Obama a few times for examples, not because I love the guy (because I don't) but because he's such a good example for some of what I've been on about. Hopefully I haven't given the wrong impresssion of me from this, though I get the feeling I have.
To be back on topic, I do question the results of this poll though. Atheists definitely take a lot of flak, some of it well justfied as yes we can be a hostile bunch, but not all of us and not all the time. In my opinion, it's just to counter the same we see from the opposite side of the field. I think it would be good to know the number of people, demographic and location. The anwers you get from people 30-65 in small town Southern/Midwestern USA are gonna be quite different from 18-40 in say, Seattle or something, especially since (as someone else pointed out) non-religious is a quickly growing group.
I like the engine blown story @Captain_America. Another example, this time humorous, is when a sports player says God granted him victory. What? Did God have favoritism for one team over the other?
There is no accuracy to that statement.