An Appeal to Reason for All the Militant Atheists Out There
person
Don't believe everything you thinkThe liminal space Veteran
Religious people and atheists agree on at least one point: leading a moral life yields positive results. The difference between them is how they perceive those results; religious people see them as a reward bestowed upon them by a supernatural God -- a colorful sticker on their report card, while atheists see them as the natural byproducts of living ethically...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-west/an-appeal-to-reason-for-a_b_5120007.html
Stephen West, host of the Philosophize This! podcast asks for more tolerance towards the religious from athiests.
I think he makes several good points and I myself generally take his approach. What gnaws at me though is the militant atheist is a reaction against religions attempts at imposing their worldview on others, ie. the Texas board of education or prayer in schools. So I'm not so sure if such things deserve tolerance or acceptance.
Comments
I don't think atheists (overall) respect the individual choices of religious people, any more than religious people (overall) respect the individual choices of atheists (or, for that matter, of people in different religions than they are).
There's a lot of the pot calling the kettle black on all sides of the issue.
Please note, my comments are generalizations and do not apply to all individuals.
Children aught to be given to choice to pursue a religion -or not.
I'll go out on a limb here and though I'm more an agnostic than atheist I find it difficult to respect the choices of those I feel believe in myths. They then often try to force those beliefs onto their children. Bob
I was thinking about this in relation to the idea of putting on shoes rather than trying to cover the whole world with leather. It seems to me that those religious people that seek to impose their views on society are making an effort at covering the world with leather.
I think most of the militant atheists are probably born from extremely religious situations. Depending on where you live (in America, at least), there are different degrees of religion being shoved down your throat. I think if you grew up in a place where religion happens to be at odds with science (in the classroom for example), you might begin to harbor a little disgust when that actually effects you.
I have actually met people that reject evolution (my biology teacher, for one, lol!) on religious grounds. When it gets to that point, where you deny scientific proof because it isn't mentioned in an ancient text which you base everything on... Yeah, I feel a little disgusted. But, on the other hand, I have met many great people who truly embody Jesus' message and make a positive effect on their lives and the lives of others as a result, so I would never say that religion is without merit. Like all things, we need a middle path...
What the world needs is militant kindness. Kindness to atheists, devoutly ga-gay, religionists, the ignorant and cructaceans especially [ahem] . . . that be my plan.
I have found a temporary temple being developed on Londons South Bank. I shall be attending religiously . . .
I think "we" need to be more realistic about this shoving of stuff down our throats.
Right now, I live in Colorado Springs, Colorado. According to Google: "Colorado Springs has in particular attracted a large influx of Evangelical Christians and Christian organizations in recent years. At one time Colorado Springs was counted to be the national headquarters for 81 different religious organizations, earning the city the tongue-in-cheek nicknames "the Evangelical Vatican" and "The Christian Mecca.""
So let's see. How has religion been shoved down my throat in the 4 years I lived here.
Number of religious people who have knocked on my door to proselytize: 1
Number of religious people who have telephoned me to proselytize: 0
Number of mailings or emailings I have received that had the purpose of proselytizing: 0
Number of public meetings I attended where an unwanted prayer was said: 3
Even after surgery, 3 out-patient visits, and an overnight emergency room visit at a Catholic hospital, the only religion shoved down my throat there was me seeing 2 statues of St. Francis and having a crucifix in my room...but then again it was a Catholic-owned hospital.
Now, admittedly, I tire of Colorado politics because of frequent references to God mostly by Republicans, but to be honest, in the past few years the only thing I have encountered where I felt something was being shoved down my throat were the frequent threads (as in every couple of weeks) here about vegetarianism.
There are actually many other causes here in the US that I feel are more shoved down my throat than religion.
The writer of the article lost me when he used the term "militant atheist" in the title and elsewhere. Last time I checked, no atheist was going around bombing churches or waving protest signs in people's faces and screaming insults and mocking people going about their religious practice. No atheist I know of is calling for religous people to be denied their constitutional rights or telling religious people they should leave the country. That term "militant" is thrown about quite a bit and it's biased.
What we have are some outspoken atheists. Good for them. The appeal to reason in the article seems to be pointing out that most of the poor, misguided masses are too stupid to understand the fine points of philosophy so leave them alone in their delusions. Let them believe nonsense and don't bother them by pointing out the truth. So what if they believe the world is only 6000 years old and dinosaurs lived along with people?
The problem, obviously, is that religious people are not satisfied with their own beliefs. They want society to teach these lies to everyone else.
I do agree that religion is not the problem, but is a symptom of a problem: tribalism. Both the Soviet and China tried a religion-free society and all it did was replace worship of a God with worship of a state. Tribalism. People did not treat each other better without religion. Not worse, either.
To be honest I've gotten so used to hearing the term militant and laughing at it ...that I don't speak up enough about how untrue it is. The word has been thrown around here for the last couple of days.....does anyone have any examples of these militant atheists?
Even if they are few and far between...who are they? Legal proceedings aren't militant.
The forum post space isn't long enough for how much it's shoved in my face...and my children, during public school hours. Live in the Bible Belt...then talk to me about the numbers.
I have lived in Switzerland for well over fifteen years. And though Switzerland does not strike me as a very religious country, my seven-year-old son has Religion being imparted in his first class and nobody consulted us beforehand, nor asked our opinion about it.
Classes are about to finish, so he brought back his Religion notebook home last week.
It is full of collages and drawings he did during class with plenty of hearts and "God loves us" messages splashed all over.
I wonder if the notion "It is okay if you have other viewpoints in life, too" is also part of the programme.
To judge from the notebook, that idea is not very clear to me.
I agree with you, Vastmind, about the use of the term militant. This is a disturbing trend in America. Militant. Crisis. And now even terrorism. Things are blown out of proportion.
I think evangelical atheist (to me) is more suitable than militant. An example is getting up in somebodies business saying that they have no evidence and precipitating a confrontation where none should be.
Just remember, if you feel Christianity is being shoved down your throats here, try being a Muslim in Thailand. Your throat will explode with Buddhism.
I think what bothers me the most about the anti-science Christians are their efforts at changing school textbooks. The Texas schoolboard purchases such a large number of books that when the textbook companies adjust their books according to Texas's standards many other smaller states end up with those same books. Not only do they change science related items but even more so historical stories are omitted or changed to better fit a Christian agenda. I don't personally feel the effects of these changes but when large numbers of our children are being misinformed, that bothers me.
There is a good documentary on Netflix called The Revisionaries about the goings on in the Texas board of education.
Yes, I agree @person...particularly as a former science teacher myself! Another reason I am opposed to local control of schools.
Kia Ora,
I guess when the militant Christian puts down their
gunbible, then the militant atheist will stop 'thinking' out loud...Metta Shoshin
@MeisterBob The US is one of only 2 countries who has not ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child because the Chrsitian right is so adamant it not pass. Nevermind that it is not a law, just basically taking a stand to say as humans, kids have certain rights, too. But those people do not want the right to force their children into their religious beliefs, taken away from them. Even though it isn't a law, they apparently fear some major rebellion by their children to stray from Christianity or some other absurd thing. Nevermind that beliefs mean nothing if the person doesn't actually BELIEVE in them. Ugh.
The text book issue bothers me, too. I just can't fathom that people are that afraid of their beliefs being unaccepted, that they need to disallow children from learning science to protect them (the beliefs).
I mentioned on another thread that atheists sometimes get too vocal only because believers tend to work double shift on them.
a myth to you is a culture and belief to others. throughout human history children are raised into the culture they are born with, there is nothing wrong with that. I guess you know whats better for their children then the parents do.
Nor should they have that right taken away... Parents should have the right to bring up their children in the bounds of their culture.
Very few people can articulate why and what they believe or don't believe, instead resorting to emotional escalation to defend their egos. This because what they are actually defending is their IDENTITY.
No-a myth is a myth. If you choose to believe in a myth- you belief in a myth. Its that simple.
I consider it abusive to indoctrinate a child to a myth as the truth. I had this abuse as a child. I let my children choose for themselves. Bob
MeisterBob, I think you have a very low threshold for what you define as "abuse".
I suspect that we all believe untruths/delusions and even champion many of them. I had a extremely humbling experience a couple years ago, when I realized that I today disagree oft with me yesterday... and this will repeat as myself tomorrow with disagree with me today. What a joyous encouragement to continue seeking more data, more experience and more growth and clearer truths.
Perhaps....perhaps not. Mental abuse is mental abuse.
We rarely persuade from a position of superiority. Rather encourage from a position of humility that the other continues their journey. Never attack where someone is, but suggest they simply move forward earnestly seeking truth.
@MeisterBob Until the world is actually able to say "these things aren't true", or at the very least "children should get to make up their own minds after they've reached the age of reason", things aren't going to change. Parents are passing on what they believe to be true, and I think that counts as good parenting generally. I feel bad for the kids because it's hard to unlearn the particular religion you're brought up with, and it's another mechanism of division among humans, but I don't know how it's going to change.
There are very real experiences of 'religious' abuse. Abuse is defined by any use of power over another to force compliance (force being the operative word here). I do 'get' the possible over use of the term 'abuse' to describe controlling or punitive behavior, though.
Of course we are 'forced' to comply with speed limits and laws against burglarizing the neighbors. It would be a dumbass argument to equate that kind of 'forced compliance' with telling a child he is going to Hell if he refuses to go to Sunday School. Clearly enforcing speed limits and property laws are not 'abuse', while enforcing specialized beliefs and behaviors with threats of Hell COULD BE, and frequently are.
Perhaps you're right, Hamsaka. No child should be raised Buddhist.
To me, these past few posts are exactly why so many people dislike atheists (not that all atheists are this strident).
What do we have here? Statements that parents do not have the right to raise their children within their cultural norms.
So what have you accomplished? You have taken someone like me who is totally against Christian evangelism, particularly by the religious right, and you push me over to agreeing with their position on this limited subject.
Congratulations. Well done.
@vinlyn Well I don't consider myself an atheist if that's directed at me. I have no proof of the non-existence of any specific god nor wish to have. However without proof(scientific method) I think something shouldn't be taught as truth either. There is clearly a difference to me. I'm not pushing my stance on anyone,nor would I - just stating it for what it is. People will do what they do -thats their thing. Bob
So you are exploring Buddhism because things like karma and rebirth are scientifically proven?
So..so.... No more Santa Claus for kids? :`(
Or Easter Bunny, Captain Kangaroo, or Star Wars.
Santa abuse? Sounds like a huge class action lawsuit.
Don't believe in rebirth more than my molecules will be redistributed into something else. I can't flat out dismiss being reincarnated into another life but the evidence suggests its more likely just redistribution.
Karma? The choices Ive made in my past have brought me to this point.
My interpretations of specific areas of Buddhism may be less literal than yours. I may not even accept certain tenants unless its in a figurative sense. Bob
Kinduva vague response. But, you're entitled.
At a certain age they know its a lie and not that old either. I did the Santa thing with my kids but I'm not sure how I feel about that anymore. At least I won't burn in hell for not believing in Santa! lol!
I didn't do Santa with mine. I had to pay for gifts and I wanted to let them know that a list of wants and expecting those things was not the way this was going to go. You get what I give you and what I can afford. No Easter Bunny....but a Spring Party...and I'm a fun person...but I wasn't going to trade one mythical character for another. No Tooth Fairy...you name it. We celebrate each other and life events....and I do it big! Party down...hahahah
And no...We're not into Sci-fi...so....the stuff they see on TV is explained by me to them as pretend/imaginative play. My kids were always the ones screaming..."Hey...your just a guy in a costume..your not foolin' me"....hahaha. I did tell them though that other parents play pretend and not to ruin it for them.
Difficult to be reasonably independent of ones cultural heritage, socialisation and intellectual and emotional choices. Difficult but not impossible. Should we adopt atheistic/theistic/preferred regions of dharma? Teachings with far fetched mythologies, impressive rituals and robes?
Thinking for oneself is a good plan. When do we start? :buck: .
Well science tells me that all the molecules around me and including me were formed by the "death" of stars billions of years ago. In a vague sense we are reincarnated stars. That's my interpretation of reincarnation.
That said since nothing seems truly known I discount nothing entirely but lean heavily on the side of belief based on evidence (scientific method). I guess that's vague. Bob
@MeisterBob, are you more a stoic or scientific materialist? Just curious about you. For my own sorts I am a science major grown old and I have internalized a lot of the mahayana. In the mahayana we have already done away with a real universe
The colloquial view is to treat religion (or atheism) the same as you treat your penis*. It is ok to have one but don't go waving it in someone's face.
*Or a hypothetical if you don't have one.
I had to check my stereo, I thought I heard a violin concerto come on spontaneously.
This is an intelligent group, we are clear about what makes behaviors abusive no matter the 'cultural norm' the abusive behaviors have hijacked. The hyperbole is not making a lot of sense except to draw attention to how much you enjoy being misunderstood. Oh did I say that? Culture IS what parents give to their children and whether or not they have a 'right' that's what they'll do. There's not even any laws against being an asshole, but just because it's not against the law does not mean it should not be noted and labeled for what it is.
Sheesh talk about straw man.
Rebirth might well be a load of nonsense too, but IMO it's less nonsensical than God. But in any case belief in rebirth isn't a prerequisite for most western Buddhists.
Maybe a good starting point is to assume it's _all _nonsense? Or at least recognising that attachment to speculative beliefs is a hindrance to seeing things as they really are.
And IMO there are no "militant" atheists, just people who think that God is an entirely man-made construct, or as Dawkins aptly puts it, a delusion.
Neither...
Reality is unknowable-even the simplest thing is ultimately unknowable. Our "understanding" breaks down at the level of quantum mechanics and points toward this unknowability.... We do have levels of certainty that we can use for prediction and action though. That said the "real" universe keeps bitch slapping me in the face saying -I may be ultimately unknowable but I am not an illusion! lol! Bob
Aren't church and state supposed to be constitutionally separate in the US? And if so, why does religion have any place at all in education, which is a function of the state?
I suppose an evangelising atheist would be one who is preaching. Frankly that would make a refreshing change from theists evangelising.
That's the way it's supposed to be, but unfortunately the government is still run by humans... a majority of which are Christians in this country. Religion isn't supposed to leak into government or be imposed on the public (especially on everyone's kids), and that's exactly why there are lawsuits by the American Civil Liberties Union, Freedom From Religion Foundation, American Atheists and others. "Atheists" get a bad rap for it, because they're already a demonized minority, but there are Christian and Humanist organizations also fighting to protect everyone's rights.
No system's perfect. :-/ At least there are ways of approaching the problem legally, even if those efforts are poorly received. I'd like to see a more united United States, but religion being brought into government is divisive. It's why the founders kept it out (quite aggressively). I think the USA is a grand experiment, a government not dependent upon religion but rather shared human ideals and reason. I wouldn't want Buddhism imposed on its people even if it could be. Religion is a deeply personal matter for people, and I want them to be able to follow their own path while still agreeing to a common law that allows the greatest personal freedom without infringing upon the freedoms of others.
Guess I'm pretty wishy-washy, huh?
No, I think that viewing religion as an entirely personal matter is a very sound principle. So it's best kept completely out of state activities, including education.
Agreed. Speaking only from personal experience here: My spouse is an atheist, and I am not. We generally prefer to hold to the "Don't Be a D!@#" doctrine. I'd prefer my government, public schools, etc. stay away from religion and keep religion as personal. YMMV.