Does Buddhism only work for low-level suffering?
zenguitar
Bad BuddhistNew England Veteran
Hi Sangha, I hate to be a doubting Thomas (does that term apply in Buddhism?) but I wonder if Buddhist techniques can really get rid of all forms of suffering. For instance, I can think of a case where Buddhism works well, and another where it doesn't seem to work so well.
For instance, let's say I am overweight and suffer from some semi-serious health problems because I eat too much candy. So, applying Buddhist techniques, I meditate to discover that my suffering is due to my craving for sugar. So, through continued meditative training, I work to eliminate my craving for candy. As the craving diminishes, I cut candy out of my diet and I adopt a healthier lifestyle. My health problems start to disappear and eventually I suffer less. A case of textbook Buddhism. Score 1 for Siddhartha!
But let's say now I'm walking across the street and I get hit by a car. I am left lying on the street in agony, bleeding with crushed legs. Now something tells me that no matter how much I contemplate the Four Noble Truths, Noble Eightfold Path, 12-fold chain of dependent origination, etc. it will not stop my intense pain. Only morphine will do that. So, it seems that in this case maybe Buddhism is inadequate to stop suffering...or at least it may require some help.
What am I missing here? Does Buddhism only work for low-level suffering? (I'm hoping the answer is no!)
Comments
You need to ask the tibetan monks and nuns imprisoned by the Chinese during the Tibetan/Chinese conflict in the 50's....
I think you'll find it works for BIG suffering too....
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You're missing the point.
You're talking about the Twin Arrows of Suffering.
Physical pain needs outside care.
The worrying and intensity of coping with the physical pain is what you need to focus on.
Buddhism is a psychological medication and anaesthetic, not a physical one.
Any time there is a desire to get rid of something or escape from something or change one thing into another ... all this and more like it is simply a reminder to practice.
This -- this moment, this place, this time, these circumstances, etc. -- is it! Anything else is wishful thinking.
@zenguitar
The Buddha offered a path towards sufferings cessation..... not pain's cessation.
Pain is a warning system pointing out something that needs to be attended to.
Suffering is what we hang onto or push away.
A meditative examination of what ties those two together and what separates them is the answer.
In Yongey Minghur Rinpoche's The Joy of Living, he talks about using the sensation of pain as an object of meditation. If pain can be observed objectively, focusing not on cessation, the fear of that suffering lessens and may become more manageable. He does not state that meditation is a substitution for medical treatment, only that it can help interrupt the neuronal feedback in the brain that exacerbates or "locks in" severe pain.
Buddhism won't get rid of your physical ailments, but it will teach you how to not suffer over them. Suffering is mind-made; it doesn't matter what the physical conditions are. Buddhism also won't stop the fact of death... but it teaches you to cease yearning for continued existence or fearing the inevitable. Mind is the forerunner; mind is where it's all experienced, and that's what Buddhism targets.
You're confusing pain and illness with dukkha. Even the Enlightened get sick, grow old, have injuries, and are occasionally killed. Elimination of dukkha does not guarantee a blissful life free of trouble. How can it? Even Buddha proved to be mortal (although according to the Sutras, his followers held the belief that he was capable of extending his life indefinitely if he wanted to).
It can take a lot of contemplation and meditation to comprehend what the Noble Truths are trying to tell us. They are not telling us that we can lead a life free of unhappiness and pain, of grief or regret. That's obvious nonsense. Nobody and nothing can guarantee that. So what are the Noble Truths saying? Is it even possible to put into words?
It can take a lot of contemplation and meditation to comprehend what the Noble Truths are trying to tell us. They are not telling us that we can lead a life free of unhappiness and pain, of grief or regret.
Yes they are. Liberation from dukkha is the goal of Buddhist practice.
"Both formerly & now, it is only dukkha that I describe, and the cessation of dukkha."
— SN 22.86
And there we have one of the fascinating points that have been debated among various Buddhists since the beginning.
My Zen teacher likes to differentiate between "pain" and "suffering". Buddhism is primarily concerned with the latter.
Pain is an inevitable fact of human experience. Sickness, death of a loved one, physical discomfort and so on. No amount of meditating is going to stop that, at least not in this life.
Suffering, on the other hand, is the convoluted story that our minds make about our circumstances. We make everything very, very complicated and get lost under those layers of complication. We think we need something, we believe we are a certain way, it seems like the world is out to get us etc etc etc. It is this convoluted story that Buddhism helps us take on.
Yes, it is.
Because they are in words.
It's very clear:
The 4 Noble Truths speak of Life being Dukkha, the ORIGIN of Dukkha, the freedom from Dukkha and the way to freedom from Dukkha.
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Elimination from the CAUSE of Dukkha, guarantees a blissful life free of Mental trouble.
Yes they are. Well, three out of four, certainly. 'Pain'? Physical, no. Mental, yes.
That's exactly the differentiation to draw!
I think the extent to which you can control your suffering depends on you. Conceptually, it should work to any degree necessary.
I agree that there is a difference between the physicality of pain and the emotionality of suffering.
Thanks @genkaku. Part of me is inclined to agree with you, now that I see it a little more clearly. But another part of me looks at the many monastic Buddhists in the world who shave their heads, wear special robes, get up at 3 am to meditate for hours on end, do strenuous temple work for no compensation, follow hundreds of rules, chant sutras, etc. Aren't they making a rather strenuous effort to change something?
No, I don't think so. But I couldn't say why except that it takes strenuous effort for me to ACCEPT something my ego would prefer to do without.
Like what? Buddhism, at that level of practice, isn't exactly some kind of self-improvement project. If someone enters a monastery for the purpose of "changing" something, I'd say they're in for a great deal of disappointment.
The monastics I know, took vows for a nmber of reason. Most did so to deepen practice. Some went to get an education to to eventually teach themselves. Other's took robes because of family expectation. None were trying to change themselves.
Okay, thanks, these are great comments everyone. I think I have a little more perspective on the issue now...maybe.
LOL! Once you get one of these conversations going, you don't think it's that easy to shut it down, do you?
LOL. No, keep it going, it's very interesting. Especially when there is a Buddhist flame war.
I agree with the distinction everyone is making between pain and suffering.
However, some monks who have spent many hours in meditation and prepare themselves are able to remain still and calm while they light themselves on fire.
@person
Why "However"? and how does this example support whatever you are saying?
But the reason this monk set himself on fire in protest is because they were suffering from the considerable discrimination from the Christian South Vietnam government. The suffering is what motivates the suicide.
I'm just saying that it appears that physical pain, which the OP referred to, can even be overcome to some extent through the practice of intensive meditation.
Advanced stuff and difficult. My experience of this is limited. When meditating whilst having toothache, toothache takes precedence. Too distracting. If in emotional, physical or petrol dowsing pain, very difficult to maintain equanimity. Not impossible but I would suggest it requires degrees of physical distancing that comes from fasting, long periods of meditation and major neural ignoring that this can lead to . . .
For example when sitting for painfully long periods, the body kicks in with endomorphins. The pain goes. Many of us will have experienced this.
Long distance runners and extreme athletes know that they can break beyond the physical pain.
The reason for improving the karmic potential is to make the arising of Dukkha less likely. If it arrives, we must still deal with it. Aspirin not stoic burning. What a waste of petrol and life.
Though, maybe the pain is still there but the monk's ability to eliminate the mental suffering part of it is great enough to allow him to remain outwardly calm.
@zenguitar -- I catch your drift, and of course in an ordinary sense you are right ... let's take the bull by the horns!
But I also think that all of that hard work goes on only so long as there is some belief that things can be changed when, in fact, things change all by themselves, without any special effort or plan.
The notion that "I" can change something is not exactly untrue ... but neither is it exactly true. Practice may help to clarify muddy waters, but muddy waters also have a way of clarifying themselves.
Just my two cents.
@person
I consider it very unskilful behaviour. It belongs to the David Blane circus performing school of juggling and 'dharma'. Shame on him, his fellow Buddhist 'buddies' and the extreme political involvement that shows no teaching on detachment.
Disgraceful.
:orange: .
Which point?
I'm not sure about "overcome" - maybe put in perspective?
"What does it mean to be enlightened?"
Oh, that's certainly true. The yoga meditation that Buddha first learned is supposed to do even more. The thing about these deaths is that an important part of it is supposed to be the karma generated when the monk dies while in deep meditation.
I would say just the opposite. It doesn't work for low level suffering, like pain from a broken leg. But only works for high level suffering. The kind of suffering that a person experiences because of the experience of pain from a broken leg.
Good one!
Given that, I think you could say Buddhism addresses the high-level suffering. The suffering of sorrowing, grieving, lamenting, brooding, being distraught, etc, etc.
I remember once I broke both my heel bones in a skiing accident. It was an interesting experience! I was in a wheelchair for about 4 months or so and right afterwards, it was quite painful!
There were times when I would say "Ouch! This hurts! Why did this have to happen?! WTF! This totally sucks! I have to roll around in a wheelchair like this?! You have got to be kidding me! I have stuff to do! I wish this didn't happen! $$%#$^^#!!! Blah blah, blah, blah blah, blah.
Then there were other times when I just said "Ouch! that hurts!" and that was it.
The times that I just said "Ouch" and that's it, without all that blah, blah, blah nonsense, are the times that I really didn't suffer. It was interesting!
@seeker242 I do like the direction you're going. After a lot of time practicing Buddhism, I've noticed a difference in how I now approach the difficulties in life such as the death of my wife, compared to how my friends and family expect me to behave. Thoughts like "I'll never love again" or "Why did she have to die?" or "My world has come to an end" or even "What do I do now without her?" don't feed my grief, because that's not reality. I think they're rather puzzled that I get on with life while obviously feel the pain of her death at the same time. It's hard to explain.
To test this I have applied it to intense pain and lately gotten better at it.
There are several kinds of pain. Temporary and chronic. Intense and light.
All types of temporary pain is easier than chronic which wears you down no matter the intensity.
But it only gets as good as the practice.
Mostly more than half the problem of pain is fear and panic. Those are prime targets for mindfullness.
A good exercise is to take the body as meditation object now and then. And also look at your desire/aversion when feeling bodily pain. Then you can slowly start building up resistance to pain.
I have also tried the martial arts way by exposing the body to pain continuously until it learns to inhibit the nerve pain signal to the brain. That works too.
/Victor
Inspiring. Thank you!
Whether we murder another or ourselves depends on what kind of Joker or pseudo Buddhist we are.
If people are in pain, voluntary euthanasia may be inspiring and brave. Find the wise choice . . .
I have no respect or time for self inflicted wounding, when more skilful choices are possible. Life is hard enough without unskilful waste.
Others have inspired us through finding some value, meaning and resolution in dharma. It is the expression of calm that deepens in a wise rather than sham or superficial expression or vain bonfires . . .
. . . and now back to the calm . . .
My life is too important to me to ever consider giving it up to make a point. Not everyone is so attached to theirs.
My recollection of the monk who burned himself in Saigon was that his act had consequences, so I looked it up again. Apparently he achieved some of his goals. (Edit) Perhaps not directly but aiding in the demise of the oppressive regime and supporting the anti war sentiments in the US.
I won't judge him too harshly, having not had his experiences myself.
http://www.salisbury.anglican.org/resources-library/schools1/2007-re/2007-re-dorset-ks3-r2/2007 RE- Dorset KS3 Is War Ever Just- Buddhism Self-Immolation of Thich Quang Du.doc
My reference to the monk on fire wasn't to praise or glorify his act. It was to point to the depths of mind that one can achieve.
@Victorious. I agree that fear and panic are a great portion of pain. Perhaps resentment should be added to the mix. Thoughts of it's not fair of why me can't help us respond to any challenge.
@grackle. Would you like to elaborate a little?
Another thing. There are a couple of suttas on how either the Buddha himself or one of the senior monks were very ill and speedily recovered when the suttas about dependent origination were recited to them.
I think I am beginning to understand why now.
Does this imply that despite the apparent incredible mental ability and seeming nobility of the monk (obviously not to everyone) was really just that this guy who happened to have a bit of a better trained mind was just taking the easy way out? Just as your average person might OD on pills because of the suffering in their lives?
I really like the perspective here. All the times when we have a lingering injury where it might make us kinda miserable for a significant amount of time, except for those passive moments where you're just trying to maybe adjust your position to something more comfortable, and you're kinda just like "Ow, dammit" but that's about it. Wonder why we don't do that more often.
Indeed
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Understood
The sangha is there to illustrate skilful behaviour not become involved in regional Dukkha and petrol wastage. It is considered unskilful to criticise the sangha, luckily his robes will have burnt off and he is just another Dukkha burn out . . .
Buddhaṃ śaraṇaṃ gacchāmi.
Dharmaṃ śaraṇaṃ gacchāmi.
Sanghaṃ śaraṇaṃ gacchāmi.
I take refuge in the Buddha.
I take refuge in the Dharma.
I take refuge in the Sangha.
I also take these 3 refuges, and fully accept, that what happens happens!
For me, with my illness, it has been a great help. Physically, it has not stopped the pain, but mentally, holy shit it has (sorry @federica). Instead of moping and whinging about how unfair my life is, I am actually LIVING IT! I'm not enlightened, always calm (heh just ask around here), but I don't live what life I have left in fear, resentment and anger. I think that's a MASSIVE bonus just quietly
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The Buddha never claimed to have a quick fix instant cure, he merely offered us a solution to help and told us to test it, not just take his word for it.
That's just my 0.02 anyway _ /\ _
Like other people rightly pointed out above, you are narrowing the scope of suffering to physical pain.
The Buddhist Path is intended to brace you for dealing with general affliction, mostly psychological, mental affliction.
In fact, if you do your mental training right, you will find that even physical pain will get within more manageable bounds.
Buddhism would tend to psychologically prepare you to face life's hard blows when they happen -and happen they will.
I would not call mental suffering low-level when compared to physical pain.
I lost a baby to stillbirth. The physical pain was nothing compared to the psychological scars I am still grappling with.
The physical pain, I would go through a thousand times over again if I could change the result.
The psychological healing is another issue. And Buddhism was there all along to help my healing.
Emotional pain. Indeed.
Many people here have posted quite harrowing and humbling for others, personal experiences. Not for one moment can we imagine . . . but we can empathise AND if we are fortunate have experience that engages compassion for Dukkha.
Forgiving life or ourselves for very real experiences is hard. The visceral nature of some events are overwhelming. It is why I feel a physical practice, yoga, prostrations, walking meditation, tai chi etc, helps us to come to terms with the physical aspect of Dukkha.
Part of the reason for the engagement of a positive approach rather than just 'let what ever be arise' is because we are often very weak compared to these strong physical and emotional arisings.
It is why we need spiritual friendship, reminding us constantly to prepare, practice and provide support as best we can . . .
What else can we do . . .
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@lobster said "What else can we do..."
Unfortunately, there are many other things we can do. We can medicate ourselves till we drool. We can shop doctors until we find someone who will give us what we want. We can curl up into a ball and give up on life. We can turn our wellbeing and hopes of becoming healthy to strangers and hope they care as much as we need to. We can imagine ourselves as fatally flawed and hate that part of ourselves we don't approve of. These are the most common ways of dealing with emotional pain that people in the west take.
Yes, there is always a place for western medicine and approaches to become well but we tend to turn it over to a specialist and rest on our laurels. We need to become part of the solution to dealing with pain and that is where Buddhism comes in.
Not a mainstream view, but I sometimes wonder if cessation ( or reduction ) of suffering is a by-product rather than the primary goal.
Hmmm...interesting thought!
Yes interesting thought indeed, as someone who has to go through cluster migraines, I often just have to just go through the pain!
I've tried meditating during them - but the pain does not cease, it goes on and on to it's conclusion. I've used the pain as an object of meditation, and it's remains painful and unpleasant.
But boy, do I know how pleasant life really is when I don't have the pain.