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People wonder why I get offended at sexist comments (except @Chaz, he doesn't care)
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I think a few cockney chimney sweeps will be disappointed though. "Nuffink to look at but the bleedin' sports pages nar!"
A peeve, but it fits into the discussion.
This past weekend, Lindsey Vonn won her 62nd ski race, surpassing all other American women in her sport and setting a new record. She happens to be from my state, so I follow her skiing. In the past 2 years she had to overcome 2 ACL replacement surgeries to be able to race this year. It made the news in the sports world quite a bit. Except in the non-sports world, the only thing that really made the news was that at the celebration of her accomplishment, her boyfriend (Tiger Woods) was accidentally hit by a camera and got a tooth knocked out. So many articles about Tiger's missing tooth, with a side mention of where he was, and why, when it happened.
The sports thing really irks me. I know, sports is all about money, like most things. But it truly makes me quite upset that there are girls, and women, with as much, and sometimes more, talent in sports than their male counterparts, and they never get the opportunity to play for the money the men make. Not even close. The Little League girl pitcher who lit up the news last summer? What's she going to do, be a star college softball player? She'll never play for millions for the Yankees, even if she has the talent. Despite amazing talent on the ice, female ice hockey players will never play for millions for the Detroit Red Wings.
While we are gaining some ground in the military, it appears we will never gain ground in sports. Why?
Unlike the military, women in sports don't compete against men..
I was watching coverage of the first stage of the Tour Down Under last night and it occurred to me that womens' equality in sports, or lack of it, is because they aren't competeing directly.
I'm not sure why that is. I hear complaints that women aren't paid as much, and that's wrong, but I'd think that was more a matter of women' sports don't attract the dollars that men'ss sports do. If a male cyclist can get paid millions, it's because there's a sponsor willing to pay that much. Sponsors pay, based on the ROI they can expect. If they expect less from a rider, they pay less.
I wonder if this wouldn't change if there were women racing in the peleton alongside men.
If women cyclists want to be seen as the equal of men, they should be competeing directly. If women can forge a plaace among men on the battlefield, there's nothing, really, to stop them from competeing in sports. To have separate series, while demanding equality, only enforces inequality. I'd love to see a woman stand on the podium in Paris in the Yellow Jersey alongside men.
Why won't the compete?
Some sports, like motorsports, women compete against men, for the same rides and the same purses, but that's not enough, not if equality is a larger goal.
I don't think they are allowed. They can't try out for baseball or football or the NHL. It's against the rules. I'm guessing most sports have the same rules written in. You'd think they could at least try to prove they can compete, but I don't think it is allowed. And yes, they are mismatched, but there are ways around that. In a sport like cycling, yes, men generally develop more muscle. But women are lighter, much lighter, so they both have a benefit.
You are right, it is not because women are underpaid, but because the public pays to see the sports and most of the sports one pays to see are male participant. In MN the only sports team to win a national championship in ages has been our women's bball team, but the attendance at their games is a drop in the bucket compared to those who go to continuously see the Vikings and the Twins lose over and over again. Why doesn't the general public like to watch women in sports? Other than gymnastics and dance...
Even in the sports women might hold the majority attention, like gymnastics, ice skating, and dance. They are not professional sports in that way they get paid. They have a hard time getting the money together to even get to the olympics unless they have rich parents (which of course many do, that is how they got the instruction to become so good to start). Most of the time, the most they can hope for is a college scholarship. But baseball teams recruit high schoolers for lots of money.
Like anything else, i think the public has to start to demand to see these sports and be willing to pay to see them. Where they exist, why don't more people go? We have some top notch women's hockey college teams in MN. Despite being better than their male counterparts, their attendance does not match up. Why? People are NUTS to see men play sports, all kinds of sports. But not women.
There were "rules", at one time, excluding women from combat roles. Those changed.
There may be rules preventing them from participating with men in certain sports, but those are just rules. Rules can be and are changed all the time. They won't change if not adequately challenged.
I heard about what happened with the women's hockey program at my old alma mater. Sad movie, to be sure. My take is that gender had little to do with the decision. Money did. Who is "better" nver has anything to do with it. It's merely a matter of what people are willing to pay for. This includes women in the audience. UMD men's hockey sells out regularly. I've been to those games many, many times. There are a lot of women in those crowds and someone is paying for those seats. The school gets a cut. I wonder why those women don't do more to support the womens' program? Drag their husbands / boyfriends/bothers/dads along. It's damned good hockey. It's the same game, with the same rules. And the called that team the "Lady Bulldogs"!! What's up with that? Why not just the "Bulldogs" like every other sports team at the school. They don't have a "Gentlemen Bulldogs" team. In fact that would be a stupid name for a hockey team for chrissakes.
There's golf, with a "womens'" Teebox. I always thought that was so stupid. I know plenty of women who can drive as long and as hard as any male play and longer than many. They don't need their own tee.
I woundn't stop watching the Tour de France if women were in the peleton. No way. They SHOULD be there. I can't think of a single TdF fan of my aquaintance who would shun a unisex peleton,either.
That's one of the reasons I like car racing as much as I do. There's women out there on the track racing right alongside the men, and this goes down to the most grassroots level of the sport. And they're not asking for their own teebox either. Same cars, same rules, same track, same prize. They are equals. It's not split along demographic lines, yet. Women are still few compared to men, but the number of women on the track grows every year. I love it. I know the first woman to ever score a championship points position in a F1 race. Got licensed to drive the Indy 500. Class win at Sebring. She's awesome. Remarkably talented and one of the best drivers I know.
The way I see it, if women want to be equal to men in sports they can get in there and fight for it. If they can fight and die for their country with men, they can get on a bike and ride the TdF with the men. They can have their own thing if they want, but if they're content with that, they should STFU about equality in sport. No excuses.
Erm.... Oh....Kay.....
And if that woman wants a spot on the Shropshire team she can sue for it, right? Excluding her because she's a woman is wrong in my book and it should be with English law. She should be evaluated solely on her performance.
Sitting around crying about it won't do, and I hope that's not what she's doing.
But like your response to me earlier, clubs have their rules .....................
I never said that equality in sport would be easy.
Girls play peewee hockey, and little league baseball. But, once they are 12, they cannot go on to the school's hockey or baseball teams. They must join either softball, or girl's hockey if the school offers. I think a lot of school admins, and parents, would balk at the idea of girls and boys traveling to and from late night games on busses together (and with hockey, they stay in hotels). That is part of where it starts. They do not have the chance at that level to continue with the sport in that way, and thus they cannot exactly go back to it years after being gone. You can't play softball for 6 years very easily and then want to try out for the baseball majors.
For UMD, I don't think they said "pffft, all these women got to go" but they have already said it wasn't just financial, without elaborating on what that means. But, UMD's women's program is one of the top programs in the US, it brings in players, and students because of that attention. Students Duluth is looking at losing now because they will choose other programs (and some are planning to leave). Being a college in debt, they cannot really afford to chase off more students. Especially when she offered to take less pay, she turned down other job offers with more pay to stay with the program she built, and they refused to give her that option. I'm not saying their decision was sexist. It just seems very unfair that they need to save millions of dollars across the campus, and eliminated almost the entire female staff of the most successful (one of at least) women's hockey teams in the country and it wont even make a dent in what they need to recover from in their deficit. Its going to hurt the women's hockey program, and the school as a whole. Neither of which they can afford. (sorry to veer off topic, for those who have no idea what we are talking about, lol). A public university in Minnesota declined to renew the contracts of their head coach, the assistant coaches, and the director of information for the women's hockey team. One of the most successful programs out there, a program this coach built. The did so because the school has financial worries, but did not give her the option to offer a lesser salary, which she has stated she would have done. (her name is Shannon Miller if anyone cares to know).
All that said, not everyone has the strength or finances to take on universities, or professional sports unions. Girls at the age of 12 have a very difficult time just being ok playing sports at all, and those with the determination to do so, are very quickly told "sorry, you have to do softball, girls can't play baseball." Girls that age deflate very easily and it would take a number of them and their parents to fight states high school league laws and rules. It's a long road. Not that it's not worth it. Others have fought it, obviously. But it's a many-hurdled problem. Telling them they have no right to an opinion or a thought on the matter is ridiculous.
This is a general profile of UK Law regarding Sexual discrimination.
Of course, but if someone rolls over and/or there's noone there to take the fight to the next level, then there's not much more that can be done.
UMD had an awesome hockey program for women and like you said, one of the best in the nation. I wouldn't expect less for a college with such a strong tradition of hockey excellence.
I've always thought that sports at what amounts to a semi-pro level, has no place in an institute of higher learning. When I was at UMD, they recruited a canadian kid from a prominent hockey family. Full ride. Played for his first two years and then bailed to go pro. Bullshit move. There are a thousand kids in Minnesota alone who would have given their left testicle to play in that program, paying their own tuition, room and board and would have finished a 4 year program WITH a degree. But no. The money saved could have gone into a women's program or better yet, an improved library - the UMD library sucked.
There will be rules excluding women from sports and they'll remain until the status quo seriously and successfully challenged. And this up to women. I can say how much I want to see women in the TdF, but that's a place women will have to gain for themselves. Sport isn't about what others give you, but what you earn. You have to throw gender out the window and focus on finding the best. If you deserve a spot and are willing to fight for it, then you deserve a shot. Period.
The issue of sports is a tough one, and an area where I do admit I do not understand the position of many women. At my school we had a female P.E. teacher who would always preach that women are completely equal to men in sports. So, based on that statement, I suggested that in non-contact sports we just have sports competitions. Not boys track and girls track. Just track. "Oh no, we couldn't do that."
Why we couldn't I could never get an explanation of. To me it seemed like she wanted to have it both ways.
As a former golfer, I personally feel that there should just be golf competitions, not PGA and LPGA. Just golf.
In the US they are much the same, with the same exceptions. A lot of bars and nightclubs still do "ladies night" where drinks are super cheap for the ladies but not the men. Never understood why that is not challenged more. But I suppose if both sides see it as a win-win, they aren't going to complain. I know that when the men do complain, they always win.
In some sports it's pretty much equal, but they still never compete against each other, like snowboarding or gymnastics or skiing. Women don't naturally have the same upper body strength as men, for example. But if you watch like American Ninja and those other shows, they certainly can develop it and beat the pants off the men in the exact same competition.
I don't understand either the desire to both compete and not at the same time. "Well, sure, I want to be treated the same, but, uh, I can't do pullups, so, I need to do something else. That isn't true. Women can knock out pullups just the same, even easier because once they develop the muscle, they are usually much lighter than the men. They just haven't developed it and if they want it that should be motivation for them to do so.
It just seems like, for a woman to go pro in say, baseball, all those separate hurdles would have to be fixed before she can even try. And they'd have to be resolved all at once. That would be pretty much impossible to do. She'd have to be allowed to play within the state high school league rules, then either college or the MLB rules. That would be especially true for football because football usually recruits out of college rather than HS like baseball does. A woman would have 3 layers of rules to challenge and get through, on top of staying on top of her school and sports work. I'm not sure how a person could take that on alone. I'm sure it's at least part of the reason no one has really tried.
When I was in high school, a girl fought for the right to play hockey. She won (I think the school board allowed her to practice but the state league would not allow her to compete as a roster spot if I remember right). She didn't last very long after all the boys started teasing her about her period, though.
Ladies nights saty because when the ladies come out for cheap drinks, the men come out of the woodwork. It's win-win-win. Ladies get cheap drinks, men get women to meet, and the bar makes more money. Nobody's gonna complain about that.
I find "ladies-only" events to be bullshit. I mentioned the ladies day drive with my car club. No MEN allowed. We can't even ride along letting the women do the driving. I've heard all sorts of excuses why this should be and they're all bullshit sexism. The club's annual planning meeting is up in a month or so and I'm thinking about promoting a boys' night out of it drive. Nice sunset drive in the mountains and then steaks or something. Ladies can stay home, or go to the kart track like the men do on Ladies Day.
As it's a private club, you'd be well within the rules to both propose it - and organise it!
And if I were a Member, what's more, I'd back you.
What's sauce for the goose.... I can see your point.
I remember that.
Never said equality in sport would be easy. If women want it they have to fight for it and not stop. If that young lady bailed because she couldn't handle teasing by her teammates, well, how bad did she really want it?
Here's an article promoting co-ed curling in the olympics.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/five_ring_circus/2014/02/14/curling_2014_olympics_do_the_olympics_really_need_separate_men_s_and_women.html
Luge at the olympics is also unisex.
Like @vinlyn said, why not just track? Why not just ......... I know, there is resistance to the idea, but I think that resistance can be found on both sides of the argument.
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I awesomed it, but it's worth somebody repeating, that's for (expletive deleted) sure.
It frosts me to be reminded of how easy men win on not just little bits of problems, but pretty much everything. I think this is one of the best non-violent examples of why it gets under the skin of 'us' women...at least those who haven't thrown in the towel yet.
In the 70's, I won a season trophy for dunecycle racing out in the deserts of so cal, my b/f being 2nd place and unbeknownst to us, they had a guy all set up to win so they could use him to advertise the bike. We didn't know we had enough points to win the whole season because we didn't care n evidently they didn't, either.
On the ride home, one of our friends was playing it down, why a big fuss wasn't made over me when I won (it was more like 'oh sh*t and most walked away disgruntled), and I don't remember what he said exactly, but I remember it ticked me off some...but the upside was that all of my b/f's friends razzed him for being "Number Two"...we all had fun with that.
Thus, when the girls want to win anything over those kinds of issues talked about very recently on this thread, they will have to get together in record numbers and time your pushes and use every media you can - and even then if we do win, don't expect much praise or notice partly because it's the way things should've been in the first place. I guess we should consider ourselves lucky when we do win, because not paying it much attention is the least damage can be done. And I'll tell you...it's hard to be put in that sort of position, where most every 'win' is played down, but I guess it's better than a sharp stick in the eye.
:smirk:
And there's a large part of the problem. Most sports are about not letting things get under your skin, even if your competition is trying real hard to get there. If you let it get under your skin and throw in the towel, you just quit and noone likes a quitter.
Like in motorsports. Noone changed the rules. Women came in and were happy to run with the boys' rules. They put up with the old boy bullshit and beat them at their own game when they could. More important than the wins was the respect gained, not just for individuals but for an entire gender. Nowadays, noone would give a second thought to a woman entering a car race. They won't cut her any slack, but that woman will have the same respect anyone putting a helmet on deserves.
It's all a matter of what you're willing to fight for and not quitting.
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Like in motorsports. Noone changed the rules. Women came in and were happy to run with the boys' rules. They put up with the old boy bullshit and beat them at their own game when they could. More important than the wins was the respect gained, not just for individuals but for an entire gender. Nowadays, noone would give a second thought to a woman entering a car race. They won't cut her any slack, but that woman will have the same respect anyone putting a helmet on deserves.
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It's all a matter of what you're willing to fight for and not quitting.
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There is most definitely SOME truth to that, @Chaz. For me - while we talk about the micro view - for women, is to often have the macro view or problem in mind, because we're using vignettes about sports to demonstrate the overarching concerns about the 'weakness' of women's influence on everything from soup to - nuts.
[In other words, don't push your luck.]
You shouldn't threaten.
If you're weak, cultivate strength.
If you're percieved as weak, prove them wrong.
It's up to you. Not me.
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If you're weak, cultivate strength.
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If you're percieved as weak, prove them wrong.
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It's up to you. Not me.
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With my having used the smirk/wink guy, I would've hoped you'd take it as a sham 'threat' as a joke, y'know? Ah well. It WAS a tongue-in-cheek sorta quip.
What you say is true, but it's also a colossal oversimplification of ALL the problems women of this planet have endured. We're not just talking about sports issues or other 'minor' things. If you can't see that by now, then you're working overtime NOT to see it.
PS: I can also understand how you might have become resistant to the issue, by having been held up in unfavorable light, by having been made a negative example by the inclusion of your name in the thread title - which is to me, an unfortunate event.
considering the general tone towards males in this thread I felt safe that mine was a reasonable reaction.
But I'm talking about sports. I can view that as a metaphor for life if I want, and admittedly that's a pretty "male" way to look at it, but if you want equality in a "man's world" you almost have to play by those rules.
But I'm really only interested in women in sports right now - an area where inequality is rife and needs to change.
You guys wanna talk about other stuff, feel free.
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But I'm really only interested in women in sports right now - an area where inequality is rife and needs to change.
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Okay, got it.
I would've hoped you'd recognize my unique perspectives, since I've challenged some of the very thing you're talking about to hopefully bring a far more balanced and reasonable approach to the problems that this thread was created to dialog about. (silver shrug)
Oh man, I could write a book about sexism and likewise offensive issues in games, heh. (I feel like I practically have somewhere on this board before...) GTA kind of stands as the epitome of trash in games. Even games which overtly objectify women have nothing on that game where you can kill random people for cash (just fine so long as you don't do it in front of a cop!) and sleep with prostitutes. It's even rumored that the next edition of GTA will no longer blur the sex scenes when you sleep with a prostitute. Great. (Disclaimer: I actually used to play this game quite a bit when I was younger but am a little more disgusted with it these days. But, uh, if you play the game with blinders or are young enough to not think about the problematic issues, it is very fun. But I now understand why my Art teacher once told me it was destroying my mind when she caught me playing it in Multimedia class. I don't think she was exactly right, but I do think you have to turn off that compassionate part of yourself to enjoy it.)
In the days before video games, I played a lot of historical simulation games. Mostly WW2 stuff like a sim of the Normandy invasion on a company/battalion level, but also Gettysburg on the same level. It was all good fun until I realized that the playing pieces we were attacking and destroying represented thousands of lives. I couldn't continue after that.
Yes, @Linc posted a thread on the blatant, hostile and vitriolic prejudice experienced by women in games, either as protagonists or as actual players, and even programmers.
Really quite unreal, horrific stuff.
I can't play war games for this reason, even fictional wars. It upsets me. Aliens and zombies, however? That allows me to suspend some belief and feel okay about first person shooters... because, ya know, you gotta save the planet. But even in other games, the thought still bothers me sometimes. Like in RPGs, it's kind of like... wait, why is this random person wandering the countryside my enemy? Oh well, they're shooting at me...
This is really random, but the other day my friend visited a nuclear museum. She bought me a shotglass as a gift... but... it has a bomb on it that says "little boy." I didn't say anything, being a gift and all (and she's really not a bad person), but man does that just seem insensitive. I don't really want to look at it.
"I'm Sorry, John, I dropped that gravy boat your aunt bought you."
"Did it break, Garfield?"
"Yeah. Smashed to bits."
"You never really liked that gravy boat, did you, Garfield?"
"......Had to drop the sucker 47 times....."
Sports is a great place to observe the existence of sexism and gender bias. Most sports are strictly segregated by gender, which is due in large part to historical biases against the physical abilities of women. There are also institutional boundaries that keep them separate, as well as unequal, such as different rules for men vs. women (e.g., in pro tennis, men play sets while women play 3). Beyond that, the culture of sports, which is still heavily dominated by men, actively keeps women out of certain positions. There are plenty of women coaches around, for example, but as one article notes, "There are exactly zero women working as coaches for the 122 teams playing in the NBA, MLB, NHL, and NFL. Zero head coaches, zero assistant coaches, zero assistant to the assistant coaches." A large part of that is likely bias considering that most owners who control hiring are men. Certainly, rules can be changed. Culture can be changed. And that's the whole point of this thread, really—that this needs to be changed. Sexism pervades almost every aspect of society, and it's not just up to women to push boundaries; it's up to all of us.
As a fan of Women's Soccer, I constantly hear that women aren't as exciting to watch because less power blah blah blah. If anything, I feel like the men fake injury more than women because, although there is a clear advantage to doing so, they don't want to be perceived as weak because of the stigma they are up against. (I'm not saying they never do, mind you. I've seen some skeptical falls, for sure.)
Women's Basketball also seems to experience the same comments, but I'm just not a fan of basketball so I really can't say. I do always wonder if this point is valid or simply inflated.
And then if we're talking about the NFL... I don't know that we'll ever see a professional women's team... but to my knowledge, the Lingerie Football League is still going strong. If that doesn't illustrate the point here... man, I don't know what will.
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Can you look at it in any other way? Being Male, I mean... That's your only option, isn't it?
You can broaden your view, and see it from a different perspective (ie, the woman's PoV) but that would mean agreeing with the premise....
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That's just it.
It's only a 'Man's world' when men say it is. Which is what needs to change.
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I couldn't agree more. Time the rules were levelled to be all inclusive, all round.
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Gee thanks Chaz, that's big of you....!
I love soccer, and the US women's team is so good. I think we'd have a better chance of winning the World Cup if half of them were on our national team.
One of the few benefits to my recent move is that I'm closer to Houston (I think 7 hours? haha) and can go to games. I actually follow a lot of the Canadian players these days... But this World Cup will be interesting! The fiancee and I were planning on going until we found out that it is literally splayed all across Canada and their ticket scheme is really weird. Makes it impossible to see all the games you want to without taking even more flights across the country. Just way beyond our means at the moment.
Another thing I forgot to mention is that it's not just about biases and rule changes, there's also an element of misogyny involved as well, i.e., women athletes trying to break into male-dominated sports facing harassment and threats of violence, male players not wanting to play with women athletes, not wanting to be coached by women coaches, etc. This is where everyone, but especially men conscious of the problem, need to step in and help in order to make women feel safe enough to participate, as well as help give them the opportunities since it's still such a male-dominated field.
That's true. Many sporting rules have a definite bias. However the biases can hold up - such as the NFL. Noone's gonna put a woman on a NFL field. She'd be killed. Nobody wants that.
I've never heard of any organized protest against that sort of thing, have you? Makes sense though, If you only have to train for three sets why would you want to change the rule to 7? Cheaper to train for three.
Are there any women qualified for such positions. The Bronco just changed head coaches. I wonder how many women applied?
To get a job in the bigs, you have to have experience in minor leagues or college. No women there, and I don't know of any organized protests against that institution. I can't help but wonder, if there are women who really want those jobs, how come we don't see any moves towards that. Plenty of women coaching womens' sports but not mens'. There are men coaching women's sports. Just because there aren't any women coaching in the pros, it doesn't mean we should just give them a job. Pro sports doesn't work that way.
I'd suggest there's no qualified women. Can you name any women qualified to coach the pros?
Sure, but in most cases they don't need to be. If woemn want to be considered the equal of men in sports they have to compete directly. Any changing of the rules to accomodate women (save for their inclusion) defeats the purpose of equality.
No, culture just changes. It's a hard thing to force. Impossible.
Then how do we get women in the TdF if they, themselves, won't fight for it? I'm all for it, I'd applaud it, but if they won't get in there and fight for whats right, there's nothing I can do. Nothing I_ will_ do. Some things you have to earn. This is one of them. Complaining and talking won't do a damn thing to change it, nor should. Noone ever got into the TdF by whining. They worked their butts off to get there. I don't expect anything less from women and if they aren't willing to do what every other competitor must do, then they can talk to the hand. They don't belong there, but their gender has nothing to do with it.
I think this argument is really only relevant for football, which do not have women's teams in the minor league and college level. That doesn't exactly explain some of the issues of the WNBA (which folded in 2007) or the NWSL (which is only 2 years young, beginning a while after the former women's soccer league folded). If they were able to find female coaches for women's basketball and soccer teams respectively, it stands to reason that there are good ones out there. (They certainly have college teams in those sports.) I mean... Pia Sundhage! (Former US Soccer Women's National Team coach) The US Women's team is far more successful than the Men's team. So why don't they have any women coaches in the MLS?
It's almost impossible to look at a situation in which privilege has every opportunity to effect and say, "Well, obviously the best "person" got the job." Until there is true equality, we just really can't know that. I also can't say that this metaphorical representative woman coach would be any better than whatever man is her opposition, but I can say that it's likely that there is some sexism involved in the decision making... since there hasn't even been one woman in the big leagues (of men's sports).
THose have already been overcome in motorsports. However women there weren't threatened with violence. The sport is already violent enough. Shirley Muldowney got here sahre harrassement and such, but she just hopped in her car and blew everyone's doors off.
Respect followed.
Women can do the same in virtually any other sport out there.
All women have to do is pester the orgs to allow them in. Men can do little to help.
If they want to feel safe in an unsafe world, then they should consider other things.
Just y'all wait until Hillary Clinton takes office in 2016. 'Nuff said.
'Course you Brits already got it down with female leaders. Um, as such . . .
Ms Thatcher was a bit before my time (at least before I was paying attention). You are fine with female top dogs. Over here in the states, we have a ways to go on that front.
@Chaz, as much as I'd love to go through every response you've made, point by point, and give you examples of the kinds of harassment and violence women athletes and coaches have to go through, lists of women coaches who are probably qualified for top positions but not offered them, etc., as well as how gender biases in professional sports make it extremely difficult for women to get their foot in the door, I honestly don't think it'd do much to help you see how prevalent sexism still is in our society and why it's so important for us to collectively confront it. I have hope that you eventually will; but right now, you sound like more like an apologist for sexism to me than anything else.
I don't doubt any of it, but i see no need to make a place for women that they can make for themselves. They have overcome sexism, misogyny, ad oppression in the past and they can do so again if they truly want it.
Perhaps you don't realize it, but many of your comments above amount to, "if women were good enough to play/coach professional sports, they'd be doing it," which completely neglects all the attitudes and biases and institutional barriers that are actively preventing this very thing from happening. There are numerous examples of this, from institutions failing to offer men and women equal opportunities to participate in sports and objectifying women, to more general examples of women having to overcome gender biases to attain leadership roles in sports organizations. And that doesn't even cover things like disparities in sponsorship.
As you noted with the example of Shirley Muldowney (as well as drivers like Shawna Robinson and Danica Patrick), progress has been made; but I think you're fooling yourself if you think that things like gender bias "have already been overcome in motor sports," or that it's solely the responsibility of women to overcome sexism, misogyny, and oppression in our society.
But why we we, because of our gender, always have to overcome, and work SO DAMN HARD to get what men are handed quite easily? Even if that that "what" is just an opportunity. Men compete, for sure, against each other. For a woman to compete for the same spot, she has to work 10 times as hard to even get the chance (if it's available at all) and then on top of that, fight all the bullshit (pardon my french) on top of it.
Well, you know, black people had to fight for their right to vote and be equals in the past. Let them keep fighting now for the right to not be murdered by the cops, because, well, they've done it before they clearly must be able to keep on doing it!
The battles people not in the majority have to fight can't, and shouldn't, only be fought by them.
I'll tell you where I'm disappointed in women for not taking an active role -- running for political office.
50% of the people who are qualified to vote in this nation are women. Yet far too seldom do women stand up to even run for political office.
Certainly it can be done. We have 20 women Senators and 84 women members of the House, but that's only about 20% of the seats available. Only 10% of our governors are women.
There is no reason that more women cannot step up to the plate and run for elective office.
Jesus fucking Christ.
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I wanted to LOL this, but I seem to have lost my insight/awesome/lol buttons somewhere along the way...happened late today I noticed they were just - gone!
![:\](https://newbuddhist.com/plugins/emojiextender/emoji/little/confused.png ":\")
In principle, but why did it have to be Mrs. T?
Not funny is it.
We are in a box. Thinking outside of it is a skill. Some have no need, requirement or capacity. We just have to leave the lid off for those willing to find the opening . . .
Not Pandora's Box I hope.
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I'm going to say it:
THESE comments are precisely indicative of WHY women are not as prevalent in these fields as men are.
Because while YOU have attitudes of this kind (let THEM struggle, let THEM fight, let THEM make the effort) women will always be considered second best.
Because men like you either actively hold them back, or do nothing to propel or support their positions.
Why do you THINK we have to struggle, compete, fight every inch of the way?
Because guess who hold the reins, and prevent such struggles from accomplishing what we desire?
MEN do.
Are you really that blind??
The reasons we can't advance in the fields mentioned (some sports, politics)
- is because MEN bar the way - !!
Utterly thoughtless arguments from both of you. Highly unintelligent.
I'm frankly amazed.