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People wonder why I get offended at sexist comments (except @Chaz, he doesn't care)
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Sometimes a nice carrot is more effective though.
"Misogyny - The World's Oldest prejudice" authored by Jack Holland.
His story in trying to get the book published, is revelatory in itself.
Read here.
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I do believe we're going to need to employ more than a couple of methods at the rate we're going.
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At one point though, you run out of carrots, and the damn ass is still on the ground.
Believe me, we're fast running out of carrots....
I just dress to be comfortable. Is that OK?
Now, why would you ask me that?
Comfortable and sexy too!
Gawd, I hope that's a joke! :#
I'm still struggling a bit over this question of how people dress. If a group of young single people are going out clubbing for example, then probably both the women and men will "dress to impress", dress to show off their best features, dress to attract the opposite sex.
So where does sexism rear it's ugly head in a scenario like this?
That woman has bunions, which doubtless do, or will cause her a great deal of discomfort and pain. Poor thing!
Sexy? Not in my book!
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I don't think it does because they're dressing for the occasion.
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It doesn't necessarily.
Sexism isn't necessarily about apparel, it's about attitude.
For example, the guys may look cool, the girls may be judged to be 'asking for it'. But then, so are the guys, aren't they? But nobody says that about them....
And the old double-standard. If a guy pulls a few birds a night, he's a stud.
If a girl pulls a few guys a night, she's a tramp.
The problem with dressing to impress is the kind of person it impresses.
Of course, having that kind of attitude would explain why I always got bloody few dates.
And the old double-standard. If a guy pulls a few birds a night, he's a stud. If a girl pulls a few guys a night, she's a tramp.
Yes, I have come across that one before, it's a sort of male machismo thing.
I thought it was a man!!!!!
Where does anyone see bunions?
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See those big bumps at the base of her big toes sticking out between the straps?
That's what bunions look like - the vary in size.
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Here.
I think part of what you are seeing is actually the sole of the shoe of the outside.
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I think you have polite eyes.
No, they're bunions.
I worked for a chiropodist, many years ago.
Please trust me when I assure you, I know what a bunion looks like.
definitely bunions, you can tell if nothing else by the contorted position of her big toes. Normal does to not turn up and push in to the degree hers do. The surgery is no fun at all. Certainly not worth it just to wear particular shoes.
I have a question (for all, not just ladies) in regards to something someone wrote a few dozen posts ago, don't recall who.
That putting on makeup or a particular shirt makes them confident and/or cool.
Why does our confidence have to come from us showing something off externally, even if we are doing it for ourselves? Why do we get a boost in how we feel about ourselves by adorning something externally? Should we?
I'm not excepting myself, I feel differently when I am dressed up for something as opposed to today, lounging in my pajamas because I have the flu.
Should we?
You've kind of answered your own question.
Our confidence doesn't HAVE to come from such personal embellishment/adornment.
But it's also a question of Looking the Part', walking the talk, or even 'fake it until you make it'.
When you dress up, and look the part, it makes us feel good.
Coco Chanel once said two things which in practice, I have found to make perfect sense.
She once said that if a woman's hair, and a woman's shoes were spot-on, the middle aprt didn't matter a lot.
Top to toe, it's a good feeling to be groomed.
She also said "It takes the woman with a lot of something to wear 'the little nothing' dress."
I love anecdotes which indicate style....
Grace Kelly was newly engaged to prince Rainier of Monaco. In an effort to present his beautiful fiancee, the Prince introduced her at a state Ball, when he adorned her with virtually every Diamond, emerald and sapphire belonging to the Grimaldy coffers. She dazzlingly outshone every single woman in the room.
At a later function, the Monegasque ladies of Society (having long memories and not wishing to be outdone!) all donned THEIR precious family jewels, in order to at least compete with the newly crowned princess.
Princess Grace appeared at the function in a plain, long black velvet gown, a string of pearls, and pearl earrings. her understated look 'outshone' them all, yet again.
Audrey hepburn (My Idol!!) was once asked to tell, if she could, what the difference was, between Style, and Class.
"Style, is wearing a fur coat as if it were a rainmac" she opined, "and Class is wearing a rainmac as if it were a fur coat".
Brilliant.
It takes a lot of dedicated attention to look 'carelessly and naturally beautiful'.
That's when, I think, someone can hit the nail on the head.
When I have to dress up, I feel less confident. I hate dressing up, I feel exposed and vulnerable even if I am with people I like in a familiar situation, like my kid's banquets and such. I feel different, but I don't feel particularly more confident. It doesn't match the style that best works for me, but what works best for me isn't socially acceptable at a banquet. Style and grace mean little to me, unfortunately, lol. But that is probably largely because I live in a very rural area, where it is completely acceptable to go to the grocery store in your pajamas and a baseball cap. Unless you are older, the older people get dressed to the nines to go to the store, lipstick and all.
I'm not sure if I feel more confident in the clothes I feel the best in, or not. Right now, I'd say no, because I am quite aware that what I feel best in is not what society accepts as style or grace. I'll have to pay attention when I'm out of my pajamas. That said, to try to stick to the topic, lol, I get far more unwelcome attention when I am in my preferred clothes than when I dress up. Whether that has to do with my increased confidence, or simply the environment, I'm not sure. I loooove shoes. I have lots and lots of shoes and boots. But nothing that would be remotely considered in style. My feet won't fit in them!
That's a dilemma for you, and I'm sorry that it has what can only be described as "an adverse effect". There's nothing worse than knowing doing something is actually going to make you feel awkward and uncomfortable.
I do not know what to suggest....
What do YOU think might work better for you?
It's just something I've come to accept, I deal with it even if I don't enjoy it. I find things that work for the occasion and that I don't utterly hate. But it seems clear to my that my discomfort in having to dress up probably has more to do with my decrease in confidence than what I'm actually wearing. When I was a kid, my mom forced me to wear dresses at least once a week to school "because this is what girls do!!" and I completely hated it. I'm sure my continued dislike of all things dress-up mostly stem from that bitterness, lol. It's just an observation. It made me wonder if it truly matters what we wear, or simply how we feel about ourselves when we wear them. I know women who look gorgeous no matter what they wear. It seems to me that has largely to do with how they truly feel about themselves all the time, not just when they are dressed up. Same with men.
I had a new suit made in Chaing Mai last year. Truly, I hope the only time I get to wear it is at my funeral.
Just as long as they don't stand you up like a mannequin....!
I am reminded of the video that was going around the interwebz last year about how we so commonly use "like a girl" without thinking, too. One of those other more subtle ways we make females seem lesser and to be one less desirable than males. Even I had never considered it, but I do now. Nothing should be negative about being compared to being a girl. Too often we are compared that way. Girls are something you screw, not something you want to be. Or as Tom Hanks put it in League of Their Own "Girls are what you sleep with after the game, not what you coach during the game."
That attitude is still quite prevalent in sports. A local university fired a very successful women's hockey coach who built a nationally recognized program (number one in the nation often) but now she makes too much money. Never mind many of the men's sports that barely keep above water. They also didn't renew the contracts for all the assistant coaches, and the women's softball coach. All women.
Not to mention when you further examine those kinds of statements, women aren't even given a pronoun such as "who/whom" but "what" as if we are things, not people. Yes, I know it is a movie. But still something commonly seen. When you grow up for decades hearing people refer to the gender you are as a thing rather than a person, it has a deeper affect on your psyche.
One of the things I can recommend anyone interested in the topic read is the book "Reviving Ophelia: Saving the Selves of Adolescent Girls" by Mary Pipher (I think the name is right...). She also has a book about Buddhism, actually. I'm reading it now. Ophelia is an excellent book that describes the problems girls start to recognize once they get to be pre-teen age, 10 or so and up. And it's not a feminist book, it is written by a psychologist about the stories of girls she dealt with and how often girls lose themselves at that age. Why? Some of the issues we've brought up in this discussion contribute to those problems.
I have abstained from participating in this thread, because I've been lacking in the Right Speech department lately, and I don't know exactly how to describe my point of view without being misunderstood.
I have never been a tomboy. I did ballet, played with dolls, am a sucker for Hello Kitty stuff, love make-up and generally like to dress in a way that makes me look good.
I don't overthink this fact: I don't feel a slave to my image, nor that I have to live up to any pop culture ideal.
I feel better with some make-up on, otherwise, black hair+pale skin=Morticia Adams.
Just so.
Which does not mean that I judge women who choose to do otherwise.
I do not have complaints whatsoever with men and don't feel much affected by sexist attitudes.
The fact of being a woman has never prevented me from studying nor working nor leading a self-fulfilled life.
I am perfectly aware that many women's sweat has blazed the trail for my being able to enjoy such liberties, and I bow to them.
I agree there is a lot to be done, yet, and I am more than willing to help make a difference if my humble effort counts in any way.
On the dating scene, I have come across the average ass who accosts you the wrong way, but I don't take those things personally: eventually these asses learn that the heavy-handed approach does not get the girl.
Life has a way to teach everyone the lesson they need to know.
I have also come across the average girl with the deeper-than-eyeview low-cut or with an ease to make one-night stand material, who complains that men don't take them seriously.
Again, wrong approach, learn your lesson.
Intersexual relationships are not easy. We send the wrong messages. We get the wrong messages.
Men and women have different psychological make-ups but for millenia communication has been possible, so there we are.
I don't feel offended by men who pay compliments or who take things the wrong way.
It's their problem, not mine.
Move on.
I don't think that woman's situation will be improved by making men the boogeyman.
There are unskillful men, but also unskillful women.
There is a point where by understanding our natural differences, we can reach an agreement and bask in our individualities.
My mother-in-law chose to be a slave to her household and her men.
I am presented with the same setting, except my father-in-law has passed away recently and our boy has been added to the male scenery, but the female attitude has changed.
I make a terrible housewife, had several rows with FIL over his machomen attitudes, and eventually everyone realized that women don't necessarily need to be held captives to the home.
My FIL simply shed his pre-conceived ideas about women, and that's it.
I agree the lyrics Fede presented are contemptuous, but I don't feel they represent a generalized male attitude.
They represent the mindset of the singer that writes those songs.
And if there are women who absent-mindedly accept the message in those songs, it does not mean that we all do.
Give one of those men a date with a woman like me, and he'll know where the buck stops.
And just to be clear, I am not a feminist.
Just a human being with a wholesome sense of her self-esteem, meeting on equal terms a man with a similar wholesome sense of his self-esteem.
To me, more than an issue of gender differences, it is more about a sense of self-esteem.
Then sadly, if you haven't read the links, and reference to the book I gave, you have understood little about the origin and reason for this thread.
It all began with some nasty lyrics.
What other links and book are those, Fede?
Things have taken so many turns -some of them downright ugly, in all honesty- that I admire the people who have been able to keep up.
My first hunch was right: I should have abstained from any comment.
Sorry for not having a negative view of men.
I agree to a point. As I read @DhammaDragon's message, I felt there was a decided balancing aspect to it, and I felt that things she said were definitely worth saying, because it's a given that she would be an excellent person to have on 'our team'...she's made a difference in her own sphere of influence and that, I think, needs to be applauded.
My father-in-law even cooked for us and changed our son' s diapers, something he NEVER did for his wife.
You may be making too many assumptions about the people here, Federica.
My first serious relationship was with an ardent feminist so I got an "education" on these issues at quite a young age. Around the same time I was visiting Chiswick Womens Aid and chatting to Erin Pizzey.
Honest question: Is it sexist to be a lot more concerned when my sister travels alone than when my brother travels alone? I always pray for the safety of both of them, but honestly with my sister, there's just this extra bit of worry.
I feel it's possibly sexist due to the preferential treatment based on gender alone. That said, I also feel it's "just the way things are".
After lurking in this thread for awhile, I am both thoroughly confused and educated.
I think it's wonderful that there are people who don't experience some of the things talked about in this thread. But that doesn't mean others don't have different experiences. Somone who grew up in NYC versus Boondocks Junction, Iowa versus Texas or southern California or Portland OR are all going to have vastly different experiences. There are areas in the US (I cannot speak of other countries as i have not lived in them) where things are much more balanced than in others. That is a terrific thing. But it doesn't mean they are balanced everywhere. And it takes people who live those experiences to help pull the rest of the country out of it's own ass.
It's not about having a negative view of men. I have a husband and 3 sons, a father and a father-in-law, all of whom I adore and I'd never dream of sitting around bashing men. I wouldn't want to. My dad grew up in a household that was very gender role defined. My grandma is still alive and very much lives that way still. It has taken the other women in my dad's life to bring him out of those beliefs. If we hadn't, he'd still think they were correct. It happened just by being ourselves, by skillfully bringing up "dad, you can't just say things like that" when it was needed. It's never been about a negative view of men. Most of the men in my life wouldn't want to make women feel wary, or feel bad. They just don't know any better and have to be taught otherwise.
As Federica said, the real problems come in those who have been told otherwise, but truly don't care. Some of those men in the US are our congressmen, who make laws that affect the women of their country or state. So to say that you have never been influenced by men who believe such things might not be true. They think women are seeking rights they don't deserve and help to pass laws accordingly. Somehow they get elected by men and women who think those views are ok. And they aren't. Even if I don't live in the state of Virginia, when women there cannot get the care they need because of laws passed by their law makers, that affects everyone, whether we see a personal impact, or not.
I'd say any opinion, question, policy, attitude or action based on gender is sexist in nature.
So, yes, that concern is somewhat sexist. However, in this context, it doesn't appear to be a Bad Thing. At least, I wouldn't call it that. Where this runs into trouble is that your sister may be able fend for herself, better than her brother. So, your concern could be, in fact, selling your sister short, as they say, based soley on her gender. Its a subtle expression of misogyny. Its all well-meaning, of course, but some, to remain true to their expressed ideal, must choose to hate what you've shared and probably you, by extention.
Just remember Chaz' First Forum Rule: Never take anything personally, even if it's meant to be that way.
Let's not forget that in Muslim countries, it's women who point the finger at other women, women who are as much other women's executioners as men are.
It was women in Afghanistan and Iran who voted for the comeback of the burka.
I am not against women getting what they are due.
But I am not for making men the boogeyman either.
That was my whole point.
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That's really nice...and a relief that things are beautiful in your little part of the cosmos BECAUSE you took a stand with your FIL. So, to be honest I don't see the point for some here to criticize your post. To be all up in arms a la chicken little, is to perpetuate an alarmist attitude when clearly, and as far as I can tell, those who post on this thread are all on the same team.
Believe me, I'm 'for' things to be equal and fair for ALL. If we could edit this thread, have it printed up on flyers and distributed to the world, we'd naturally ask ourselves if it would have much of an effect - if any. In other words, it's preaching to the choir - and even the choir is duking it out.
I was about to post this in the other thread I began, but felt it more suitable or appropriate to this thread, by way of an illustration...
When I was previously married, my then H and I went out to a company dinner.. One guy on our table actually made others around him cringe, with the comments he was passing about his wife. He Kept referring to her as 'the little woman' and cracking jokes about how he had let her out of the kitchen, to attend that evening. He constantly made belittling remarks about her, speaking about her in the third person. The poor woman didn't know where to look.... he also kept making lewd remarks about other women, until a couple of the gentlemen on our table (my H included) took him to the bar, on the 'pretence' of buying a round, and basically wiped the floor with him.
On returning to the table, he advised his wife they were leaving, because people here obviously had no sense of humour, and were probably a bunch of spineless wimps with no balls, under their wives' thumbs...
It transpired not two months later, that his wife filed for divorce.
While I do not pretend that such men are plentiful, and such comments are rife, this is an illustration of an extreme example of misogyny, and I personally have had to run the gauntlet of similar (if not quite so severe) treatment.
"Be a good girl, there's a luv an go make us a cup of tea...." This from a man whose interview I then sat on. He had no idea I was the Departmental Manager, and his potential Direct-Line Supervisor. He had assumed I was 'just a secretary' (his term).
A smack on the bottom from a male departmental manager. (different company, different time)....
I could cite a couple of other incidents, but you get the picture....
Federica, I guess I'm confused.
You've now posted your position and expanded on it 77 times in this thread. Which is fine.
Most of us are agreeing with you about your basic point, but perhaps seeing some specific things from a different perspective. I'd like to think we can disagree either in the detail or even the broad topic, even though here it seems as if pretty much everyone is agreeing with you.
It seems as if you won't take "yes" for an answer.
I would guess at this point that people have rather firm opinions somewhere along the spectrum of opinion on this topic, although mostly on the same end of that spectrum as you.
It would be helpful to me if you could not write another long entry, but rather succinctly bullet what points you don't think we are understanding.
This is an honest and sincere request, so I don't expect to get "stamped" down for it.
The following comments do not necessarily refer to any men on this forum. £When I use the term 'some men' I mean the term to include men in general, at large, and not connected to anyone here, specifically.
These are the points I am trying to get across.
I think there are some men who doubt that a misogynistic problem exists, or that it exists to the extent it does.
I think that there are some men who believe that women complaining of encounters with misogynistic attitudes, are being over-sensitive.
I think that it is very difficult for some men to understand just how harmful, inhibiting and damaging misogynism is, precisely because they are men, and have never had to endure such treatment, to such an extent, for such a long period of time (and I'm speaking historically).
I alsio think that an awful lot of men would be eminently more understanding and sympathetic if they actually studied the history of the prejudice and oppression women have endured for as long as men have taken the reins and held power. Much of it began through religion....
I personally find it irritating when discussing the inhuman crime of misogyny, that some people (again, I'm speaking generally, not specifically to this forum) bring up other modes of injustice, which I personally feel is either an attempt to equate those prejudices with misogyny and put them on a level par, or reduce its impact, seriousness or severity.
Thank you for counting my posts, @vinlyn. (No sarcasm implied or intended.
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I actually had no idea I had contributed quite that amount, or been so tediously repetitive.
It was not my intention to bang on ad nauseam.
But perhaps that could be taken as an indication of just how strongly I feel about this issue.
It was me, but to answer your question, I'm not really sure. I guess it's just sort of like... you have to wear something, right? Not everyone is built the same way, so for me, something I feel good about is something that I like the style of and that fits my long torso/short legs. A good fit is important to me. But overwhelmingly, the clothes that make me feel good tend to be t-shirts, plaid/flannel, and a nice pair of jeans (yeah yeah, I know, stereotype much). I also have a blazer that I'm pretty fond of, mainly because of the inner breast pocket (so handy!). I've never liked dresses because they don't feel useful. Most don't have pockets and you have to watch how you sit and be careful of drafts... annoying. Wearing dresses makes me feel like it's Halloween, which can be fun, but certainly isn't my cup of tea in the day to day. I think practicality is at the top of my list for what makes me feel good. I also love recycling old clothes. Old jeans? New shorts! Old t-shirt with pit stains? New tank-top!
So, maybe I'm not dressing sexy to attract a partner, but I do still feel that confidence boost and am not completely sure of the source. Maybe just because of expression? Art makes me feel good, adding accessories for color boost in an outfit likewise makes me feel good. Am I just shouting to the world that I am a unique snowflake? Is it wrong? Perhaps this human nature is the reason that monastics wear robes.
Whether it's a generalized male attitude or not, my worry lies more in the concern of what young men and women hearing this might think. I'm not advocating any sort of censorship, but I do think it's important to do exactly what Fede did with this post... speak out against things you don't agree with and explain why. I think there's a lot of misconceptions about gender roles and what it means to be a man or woman that comes out in media such as that and that is what I feel mostly concerned about. I saw something on facebook the other day that showed an image of a boy playing with a doll and it said, "Why would you let your son play with dolls? Aren't you concerned he'll grow up to be... ...a good father?"
Talking and discussing might be all that any of us can do, but I think there is some merit in it.
Please never feel like you cannot add to any discussion here. I'm pretty off the cuff and maybe some of my comments were those that you reference as an ugly turn in this discussion, so be it. I like this board because by and large, the advice and points here are usually quite thoughtful and elucidating. I don't like the idea that people might silently disagree with me because this is exactly why I'm here... to grow. I don't believe myself to be perfect in any way shape or form, especially regarding this topic, which often makes me feel pretty angry (whether I want to or not, this is definitely a personal struggle for me). My first comment in this thread was asking for advice on how to navigate this terrain (in regards to getting hit on) in a way that makes me feel kind, yet in control. From your comment, it seems clear that you have knowledge that I am still struggling to possess. But, of course, maybe you're not referencing me, which is fine too. But I guess all I'm saying is... If you feel like you disagree with points being made, I think everyone on this board would agree that we'd love to hear you voice your thoughts! Even if we disagree in turn.
@zombiegirl Thanks, I hadn't recalled that it was you that posted initially. I always enjoy your answers, and hey, I'm wearing a plaid flannel right now.
I find it an interesting topic, and I do pay attention to how I feel when I am out and about, and wonder where it comes from. It's interesting to ponder. Sometimes I care more than other times. After a week of having influenza in our house, and after being sick for 5 days myself, I'd had enough of the state of the house and threw some laundry to go. Then I realized I needed ferret food before the store closed at 3, so I ran to town in my pajama pants since everything else was in the washer. Ran into a classmate who is just the sweetest woman, who is always well put together. Flawless hair and makeup and outfits, all the time. Her kids, too. They never go to the store with chocolate on their face like my kids, LOL. She is always very friendly, we smiled and said hello. I left thinking "Gawd, I had to run into her in my pajamas" but for all I know she wonders why she puts in so much work just to pick up a newspaper at the grocery store, lol.
I, too, thought about monastic dress during this conversation. If we all, men and women, shaved our heads and wore the same non-gender specific robes, what would our interactions be like instead?
There was a point in time when I basically forced myself to go out into the world looking like 'a slob' to get over this fear. Mainly it's because I do put effort into looking "presentable" at places like work... So then, in turn, I'd find myself feeling like I had to do my hair and make-up if I had to stop in to get my schedule or pick up a check or something and I hated the idea of that weight on my shoulders. Why was I so afraid to let them see what I look like when I roll out of bed? (Okay, maybe a little better.) So, to combat that, I just... didn't do those things. I made myself deal with it, and now I feel more free because of it. A youtube personality named Jenna Marbles put out a video called "How to trick everyone into thinking you're good looking" which made an impression on me. It's comical and kind of stupid, but what I like about it is that she's a woman who puts a lot of effort into make-up (way more than me! My routine is less than 10 minutes) and in this video, she not only shows what she looks like without make-up, but also how much work is taken to achieve "tricking people into thinking you're good looking." It's simultaneously a commentary on society's standards while still giving in to them. But I do still think it's radical in a way. What if every celebrity took the time to go au naturel from time to time?
While I think you might admire your friend in some ways for always looking on point, I bet it's somewhat of a burden for her as well. My grandmother was this way, so I experienced that mentality a lot when I was younger since her expectations so often extended to me. I think it's much more radical to acknowledge that you're just a person and there's some magic in that make-up... which is your choice to utilize, not a necessity.
@zombiegirl I wasn't referencing you when I mentioned the ugly turn in the discussion nor anyone in particular.
From outside, it simply felt like temperature in general was rising and all of a sudden it was a battlefield of "us" against "them," where I felt some voices were not given enough room to express themselves or their words got completely misunderstood.
I agree this debate needs to take place, but all of a sudden the cacophony got too loud and the "agree to disagree" went down the drain.
I have been misunderstood on a similar thread before and did not want to risk being held hostage to ideas I probably could not word too well.
Like I said, I have a positive view of men and relationships and thought I had to express my alternative point of view because that exists too.
I am also worried about the messages sent by the media culture.
But the sexist messages are the least of my concerns at present, when I hear my eight-year-old son's friends casually chuckling over killing cops in GTA.
I mean: what kind of parent allows an eight-year-old to play GTA????
But I guess that's stuff for another thread...
A bit more progress here:
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/sun-ends-page-3-topless-pin-ups-003537643.html#DoebDAO
Yes, and about bloody time too!