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People wonder why I get offended at sexist comments (except @Chaz, he doesn't care)
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Yeah, a little.
I love men who pay compliments.
I don't feel objectified, nor offended, nor anything....
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I think it depends on the circumstances and the way in which it's meant...
@zombiegirl, part of your indignation at the comments men make towards you, which could be construed as objectification, may lie in the fact that you are homosexual - and they don't know it, but part of you (internally) is thinking "How dare you come on to me - don't you realise I am a lesbian - !?"
On the other hand, I might be completely wrong, and not 'being there' in person, I obviously am merely going on what you relate here....
Perhaps the Internet and online dating will replace the time honoured tradition of men making idiots of themselves in order to meet women.
Guys who are good at it will rarely get rebuffed.
The rest of us walk a thorny path through the dating world. Not much fun and I'm glad to be out of it.
As I belong to a relationships forum, trust me, sadly your first observation is far from the truth; Guys still expand on problems they have with OLD, because they can't work out what the intended date, is talking about.
The amount of threads that begin "What did she mean when she said...."
... and secondly the reason guys are confused and walking a thorny path is largely due to the lines being blurred due to good ol' emancipation.
I will agree - guys have no idea how dating works. because some of them are still stuck in 20 years ago.... in "When dad used to date" times.
Perhaps if guys (and I am NOT talking about present company!) spoke to women more as fellow humans rather than possible sexual conquests, things would play out on a more level field.... But it seems to be a current trend and objective of far too many guys who post on the forum.
All the problems, queries, questions, dilemmas and ponderables they post, amount to "how can I get her between the sheets?"
And this is by their OWN admittance!!
I love the blurring of gender lines. As a middle aged woman (well, 39) who is still very much a tomboy, I deal with it often. Of course it's not nearly so difficult as what some people struggle with. It's rarely a problem with people saying anything, more about how I feel about myself. @lobster I totally appreciate you choosing not to pick a gender to identify with. I told my husband one day that I was going to change my FB gender" to "gender fluid" because I really do feel more womanly one day, and more manly another day. He doesn't care either way, lol, but I think it could cause issues for my kids since we live in such a small town, so I didn't. It doesn't matter to me what people think of me, but it matters to me how they treat my kids. We limit ourselves so much to truly understanding people on a human level when we can only see each other that way. In person, I know a few people who I cannot honestly tell you which gender they are. And it doesn't bother me one bit not to know. Assigning one of two genders to such a wide array of human characteristics is just so limiting for us all. We shouldn't automatically be assigned certain attributes based on which organs we happen to be born with.
Anyhow, back to the topic at hand, I truly don't care what people think so I don't have a problem giving them whatever response seems to fit for the situation and the person if they offend me. We live in a really small town, so any comments come from people I know at least somewhat. But the most frequent "offender" in that department, is my mother. I don't turn it into a fight, i do let her know if I feel offended by what she says so it doesn't happen again. But she is a very feminine lady, very well dressed, put together, whatever you want to say. I think it bothers her still that I am almost 40 and have not outgrown being a tomboy. She constantly tells me thinks just like what @zombiegirl wrote in her post and while it's not coming from a man who is trying to sexualize me, it's the same deal. She wants me to look different to make her feel a certain way. But I do understand that this comes from somewhere in her, and is not truly my problem. She's also my mother, lol, it's different when it's coming from a co-worker, a stranger, or whatever. What I like to know is, how are these people raised that they think this behavior is ok? Because I want to make sure I don't do it with my kids.
It's chemistry. It's how they're wired. Can't be changed. At least not quickly. And there's nothing you, Fede, can do about it.
I found, that for me, the pathological wanting to bed every woman i met didn't subside until i was in my 40s. It wasn't till then that I found that i could could finally have women as friends.
I can appreciate that women might find that sort of male behavior frustrating. Not much you can do, short of not hanging around men.
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I never said I WANTED to do anything about it. I'm just saying that this is how things are, by their own admittance...
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Yup. Seems guys under that age automatically believe that in order to be friends with a woman, you have to have sex with her, and vice-versa....Maybe older guys could see about re-educating them?
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Great. So yet again, it's up to us to change our habits, in order to accommodate the fact that men view us as sexual objects.
yeah, thanks for that.
No, its not a question of habit or education. Its chemistry. Its how males are wired. You want them to change? Change them physiologically. Otherwise, dont hang out with men under the age of 50.
No, it's a question of social influence and conditioning.
Biology can account for an awful lot of why we date/inreract with the opposite gender in the way we do, but social environmental influences play a big part in that.
Your attitudes in this thread, (whatever anyone may think of them, and I'm not mentioning them in criticism, here) are nothing to do with your chemical wiring.
They are borne out of influences you have been exposed to during your formative years, and beyond.
No, its a matter of chemistry. You're not a male. You can't possibly know or understand
MY attitudes??
Talk about a load of pants ........
I heard an interview of a woman who became a man, when he started taking the testosterone he was amazed at how much sex dominated his thoughts. So there is a lot to saying biology heavily influences men's behavior. That being said though social norms dictate what is acceptable or allowable behavior, so biology is no excuse for maintaining a power difference between the sexes. I mean should we say Og hitting a woman over the head and dragging her back to his cave is justified due to biology?
There is a definite and obvious difference in men who are raised one way (which of course can mean a lot of things) and raised the opposite way as far as how they treat women. Perhaps they still have the same biological impulses, But they know how not to act on them. They are not driven by them as much as many others. And THAT, that decision to not act on how they might feel, is where social conditioning and upbringing come in.
My husband is 30. I met him when he was 21. He did not then, and has not since (or before) wanted to "bed everyone woman he met." Now, it's possible in his thoughts he did, he insists not, but it's possible. The key is, not only did he not do that, but he didn't treat women as if that is what he wanted from them. He works in an office that is vastly women, and he does not have any problems with it. He doesn't lean in and tell them they look prettier with their hair up. He doesn't whistle at them. He doesn't make googly eyes at them. Because he was raised not to. He was raised by excellent examples in his family (which is quite large, he has 17 aunts and uncles) that women are equals, and they are to be respected and loved for who they are.
I see plenty of people here in redneck ville who are raised otherwise, and their behavior is vastly different. Not only are they given the wrong message, but they have mothers who have accepted that message and allow their sons to believe it is normal.
So there is a lot to saying biology heavily influences men's behavior.
A significant chunk of gender sexual behaviour is down to evolution, and therefore hardwired.
Thinking a lot about sex and acting like a sexist asshole are two different things. Also, it's not like women don't think about sex too. The problem here isn't 'chemistry,' it's the conditioning that makes people think certain behaviours are acceptable when in fact they're harmful and demeaning.
Just for reference, I read this today and I think it illustrates that a problem still exists and how it can manifest itself.
I suspect I listened to the same interview - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04tlqzt
It wasn't just the increase in sex related thoughts that was mentioned but also an increase in anger. Yet part of the transition is about learning how to manage these thoughts and feelings. Hardwiring can be and is amended. Kids do not have sharing hardwired in to them and have to be conditioned to do this.
Yes, there is a biological difference. That is not an excuse for unskillful behaviour.
No, not an excuse, but it is a reason.
What's "unskillful", here it to take "offense" over something that is actually quite natural to males of a certain age. It's illogical. Getting PO'd about something that is, generally, outside the immediate control of the individual, is kinda pointless except to draw attention to our own indignation rather than the percieved problem from which it arose.
It wold be the same if I were to state some outrage about women getting a bit more emptional than usual for a week or so each month. Yes, it's frustrating and even enfuriating when your wife or girlfriend breacks down in tears or flies off the handle for no apparent reason, but that anger I experience is futile because there's really nothing that can be done about. It's just how things are.
I would suggest that if someone is offened by how women are approached, sexually, by men, then the problem is not the man's. In such a case I'd recommend Tonglen mediation. It works wonders for attitude reajustment.
If the man is behaving inappropriately the problem is his. We can check our reactions as well, it's not skillful just to get angry for the sake of being angry. But that doesn't mean the man is off the hook, just as I am not simply off the hook for misbehaving when I have PMS. I get raging PMS, and I hate it. But I do not simply throw tantrums and tell my family to deal with it. I recognize what it is, when it's coming, and I do what I can to temper my mood, including extra workouts, extra meditation, keeping my mouth shut. If I happen to say something I shouldn't have, I immediately apologize. I never use "I have PMS" as a reason or excuse to treat someone poorly. And men cannot, and should not, us "It's my biology" as a reason to treat women poorly, either.
For many people who not only already have that biology but the upbringing and environment to foster it, they don't outgrow it. Many of the young people I see who sexualize women to a great extent have mothers who wallow in being sexualized and find their false value in it, and/or have fathers who sexualize and objectify women, well into their 40s, 50s and onward.
I read an interesting thing in a book the other day, that said there is a difference between feeling and emotion. That feeling is when something arises, and it's just there. We are mad, we are sad, we are happy. Emotion is when we allow that feeling to become set in us. We have a choice to get angry, and change that anger into something useful. Or we have a choice to get angry, seat it into ourselves and just stay angry. Doing that doesn't do anyone any good, either. One has to know how to transform the feelings before they become held emotions. Sometimes, we don't need to transform them because nothing is required. We just observe the feeling and let it go. But when we don't let it go, it becomes a problem for ourselves and everyone else.
I think you're oversimplifying here.
Understood. And understanding reasons makes compassion easier. But I need trust in a relationship. Understanding reasons does not make me trust.
Perhaps you are right, @Chaz, that it is not wise for a female to seek a relationship with a male. Thankfully, that is not my experience. My life is much enriched by my male friends, despite the occasional attempt to exert control/bed me.
Yeah but I went to a single sex boarding school run by "celibate" Christian brothers...
I'm surprisingly normal considering.
Would keeping a distance from men, in general, up to, oh, middle age, make it easier, or harder to deal with the issues that will crop up no matter what? We still have to work together and do business together. Staying away from a man until he is 40+ can make starting a family challenging, lol.
It seems to me that we learn how to work together and how to deal with each other by doing so. Not by keeping distance and expecting to suddenly know how to decades later.
I do know people who grew up in a more disrespectful manner but who learned better ways. Far before they were 40. Education and experience will do that to people. The opening of the mind that happens in those situations (learning and experiencing) makes a big difference. It's settling for "That's just how things are" that is dangerous, as the article I posted a few days ago pointed out.
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A couple of thoughts.
First about the music of which you speak. I agree. Much of it is loathsome. But here's the problem -- it sells. I couldn't find any data that looked very dependable, but it isn't just young Black men buying this crap. A huge percentage of the sales must be to women. I wonder why. No, I mean it. I wonder why.
My other line of thought when I read your OP was the words you chose: "pilloried", "bridle instinctively", "blatant, mindless and thoughtless rudeness", "overblowing", "too sensitive, anal", "exaggerate".
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Ditto likewise.
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Finish quoting what I said.
It's far too convenient for you to cherry-pick and be selective about the comment:
I SPECIFICALLY made comment to clarify that your attitude was neither under scrutiny nor mentioned in criticism.
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Omit the bracketed comment, and the quotation reads:
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Which, taken in the correct and intended context, is not 'pants' at all.
Please at least have the courtesy and good grace to not twist and manipulate what I said, and impart a false impression of my point of view.
That, in and of itself, is grossly disrespectful, and would be whatever my gender.
Good point, @Chaz.
There's no question that sexism against women is endemic in much of the world
But there are pockets where sexism against men occurs as well. I look back at the school where I was principal. When I first went to the school as an assistant principal, it was an "old boy's network". During my time we had a balance of people in positions of leadership. I attempted to balance by race and by gender as much as possible because we needed to have role models that all of our students might identify with. Recently I looked at my former school's website. 5/5 administrators are women. 9/10 counselors are women. 9/11 department chairs are women. The school has gone from that "old boy's network" to an "old girl's network".
Look also at the roles of men and women in television sit-coms. A number of studies have been done over quite a few years showing that "fathers" on sit-coms are more often portrayed as somewhat dimwitted, as compared to the "mothers" who hold the family together.
Men and women are both capable of sexism, just as all races are capable of racism. What we all ought to strive for is some balance in life. You know...sort of that "middle path", even in terms of our "isms".
So, after spending a few weeks calming myself down in regard to this forum, I come back and this is the first thread I read, and I read it in its entirety at one sitting.
Two observations:
I was about ready to send you a message @Vinlyn! Glad to see you back!
Interesting and lucid point, about the anger. It's been bugging me offline, well, I've been thinking about it anyway. It does seem 'manufactured' in a lot ways, as if there were another 'subject' being argued and this debate is the 'disguise'.
I have to say, @vinlyn, I have found so many of the comments to be so constructive and of comfort, that 'Anger' is the last emotion I'd describe myself as experiencing here.
As I mentioned previously, my Ire is reserved for those who are conscious Misogynists who don't care, and consider the female gender in a far less than compassionate and humane light.
Not seen anything near that here....
I would hasten to assure you you are mistaken....But in what way do you mean? What do you perceive is the actual subject being argued, 'in disguise' exactly....?
I'm sorry... what is a 'Buddhist website' supposed to be like?
It's like people being astonished that I am in my 58th year.
"God, you don't look it!"
"Well, you don't ACT like a 58 year old!"
"How old do you FEEL?"
What is a 58-year-old supposed to look/act/feel like??
It's not me - it's their pre-conceived stereotypical ingrained ideas which need re-evaluation....
I myself, find it healthy and reassuring that not all discussions on here are like discussions on other forums... you know... all 'other-worldly' and 'holier-than-thou'.
I had my absolute fill of that on another forum, and got heartily sick and tired of people on there being so sanctimonious it seemed they'd quite forgotten how to be human beings.... they simply churned quotation, link, passage and sutta out, ad nauseam, and based everything they thought, said and did on something they'd read.
Spare me from Buddhautomatons...!
Engaged Buddhism. TNH..
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engaged_Buddhism
".....In the West, like the East, Engaged Buddhism is a way of attempting to link authentic Buddhist meditation with social action.[6][7] ....
Organizations such as the Buddhist Peace Fellowship, the International Network of Engaged Buddhists and the Zen Peacemakers, led by Roshi Bernard Glassman are devoted to building the movement of engaged Buddhists. Other engaged Buddhist groups include the Benevolent Organisation for Development, Health and Insight, Gaden Relief Projects, the UK's Network of Buddhist Organisations, Fo Guang Shan and Tzu Chi.
Prominent figures in the movement include Robert Aitken Roshi,[8] Joanna Macy,[8] Gary Snyder, Alan Senauke, Sulak Sivaraksa, Maha Ghosananda, Sylvia Wetzel, Joan Halifax, Tara Brach, Taigen Dan Leighton, Ken Jones, and Bhikkhu Bodhi."
Sadly, even Buddhism isn't immune from these kinds of issues, so I think it's a fitting topic for this site even if the discussion isn't focused on Buddhism in and of itself.
Jason, I didn't say "everyone participating is angry".
But some posts are very full of angry words.
Again, it's an assumption they're 'angry' words, unless of course you have psychic powers and know their intentions.
Good points, I often come across to others as being upset or something, when I am indeed not. It's rare, if I am upset that I will stay online and let it come out. I know better (usually) and log out before it gets to that point. But still people perceive emotion in my posts when there is none present. It's just how I type, lol.
@vinlyn that's true, there are definitely areas where men are shown in a less-than-positive light. That said though, most of the time those perceptions or attempts at humor don't affect their ability to get jobs, to get equal pay, to be listened to by law enforcement, and so on.
Big Bang Theory is one of my favorite shows, but it's hard to ignore the fact that they portray all the men as highly intelligent, yet bumbling, unattractive, undesirable nerds. Lots of stereotypes and exaggerations on that show.
But, to be honest, we largely do hold everything together
Yes, I agree. That's ANOTHER reason why I'm not fond of that programme.
Hey, @vinlyn -- I understand where you're coming from and what you're sensing from some of the exchanges here. I do believe that some (like you, me, whomever else) are a lot more sensitive to what emotions they feel they are picking up on in some of the forum conversations. I think it's a combination of actually being psychic to a certain degree than others, and feel as though we pick up on subtleties that some ignore or just don't witness. I could be all washed up on this, as well. (I knew somebody was missing in action around here for a while).
I also much appreciate @federica's experiences and views about some forums being well sorta namby-pamby (and of course then, there's the other extreme). So, as far as I'm concerned, this is one of the most mature core group on a forum that I've ever known.
All I know is I get kind of upset when I feel as though others are with their fur standing up, teeth barred, or feathers ruffled or hair on fire ...all the more reason I NEED to study Buddhism.
things really overall do go very smoothly here. It's like a little bubble away from the rest of the internet. Even on a "bad" day here, it's a million times better than reading comments on news articles!
Amen to that.
But some posts are very full of angry words.
There is certainly a lot of frustration, though I feel that myself when debating with homophobes for example.
I agree that sexism is a major issue, though I also think it's one of many -isms that need to be tackled. Sexism looks like a complex issue to me, including tricky questions around nature v. nurture, and I'm not sure that we're going to be able to do all that justice in a thread like this.
Sexism is complex and has levels. In some countries the idea of respect for women is not even open for debate.
In the west some post-feminism has highlighted womens femininity as a means of expression and emancipation. So there are differing understandings.
Giving people options and choices, widens their potential. Sexism is a constriction imposed. As potential Buddhas we need all the freedom possible . . .
http://www.tricycle.com/blog/himalayan-buddhist-art-101-who-tara
Yes, and that brings to mind another controversial topic we've been discussing here recently.
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Oddly enough, yes, we have had a spate of those.
They seem to come along in batches.
Like the No. 49b bus.
Nothing for two hours, then 5 arrive, all at once.....
There is definitely some truth to your statement in that I would prefer if no guys hit on me. But I try very hard to keep my reactions based on their actions towards me, rather than my personal feeling that them hitting on me is pointless (which they are unaware...although I do wear an engagement ring which I have had men comment on). There are a lot of ways to hit on a girl and not all of them are predatory or cause one party to feel uncomfortable... I should know, heh. I have definitely experienced creepy lesbians as well and feel the same way (usually only in a gay bar though). It's all about the manner in which you go about it. But regardless, I accept it as a fact of life, which is why my main concern is learning how I can respond to it -in a way that makes me feel like I haven't ignored my personal feelings- as well as get my point across.
As a weird sidenote, I've often wondered if I could mitigate this issue by looking more gay, so I did actually shave part of my head last week... but I guess it wasn't enough of a commitment because I still got hit on yesterday. I was yelling at some punks in my work for being disruptive and was informed that I was beautiful and that he "liked my face." It sounds a lot funnier today than it did yesterday at the end of a 14 hour shift...
@zombiegirl kind of off topic, but I think some men know women are lesbians and find it even more of a challenge to try to hit on them. My sister is extremely vocally gay, and very much a butch lesbian. She usually has her girlfriend with her, and men still hit on both of them. They think it's funny. In a way, that's even worse than their more typical behavior, since they find lesbian women to be the supreme female to attempt to conquer (those types, not all men, of course).
In a way, that's even worse than their more typical behavior, since they find lesbian women to be the supreme female to attempt to conquer (those types, not all men, of course).
I've never thought about lesbians like that. When I was young I had a close friend who was lesbian, we'd go out and "eye up" the ladies together. It was great fun!
Like i said, I'm sure most men aren't. But there are some who are, mostly of the redneck variety that I talked about earlier in the thread. They are prevalent where I live and gays are still very much ostracized by a lot of people here. We live in Minnesota, which is a fairly socially progressive state, but my neck of the woods is like the armpit, as the saying goes. Uneducated, inexperienced, closed/small minded. My sister lives in Minneapolis so rarely has issues there. But here, she and her girlfriend are approached and hit on frequently. Even if they are together and it is obvious they are a couple.
I lost count of how many guys, discussing lesbianism with me, have said "I don't understand how they can live without d*ck?" Well, only ONE of them used these words and they shocked me so much that I remember his facial expression, what I was wearing, what he was wearing, where we were . . .
The rest expressed dismay, maybe even indignance (not a word). Over all, used more respectful language to communicate a grossly disrespectful sentiment.