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Drawn to Two Different Buddhist Traditions
Rowan1980
Keeper of the ZooAsheville, NC Veteran
One of the ongoing quandaries that I've been wrestling with is that I'm drawn to both Tibetan Buddhism, which I practice, and Zen Buddhism. My introduction to the latter was primarily through TNH's writings, which I gobbled up in college and found--and still find--profoundly moving and beneficial to me.
Speaking only for myself, I'm not one who wants to engage in a tradition mash-up of sorts. 8FP and 4NT aside, they both ostensibly have different approaches to practice. At the same time, I have trouble with excluding one tradition and favoring another. It's a bit of a mess, to say the least! Has anyone else encountered this?
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My experience was that even though I practiced Zen, I still sniffed around ... went to meetings and lectures and practice sessions elsewhere. A purist may call this a no-no approach, but the experience actually helped me to sort things out, settle down, and stop imagining that purism was either desirable or true.
To my mind, each person is his or her own one true version of a particular practice. At first, there may be a desire to "be a Buddhist," to live under some umbrella of protective thought or philosophy. But as practice moves forward, the need for umbrellas wanes and the student employs Buddhism as a good tool rather than a cloak of belonging.
The key in all of this is the practice. Practice is the one thing that cuts through the laziness of being "ecumenical" or the confusions of "cherry-picking" one discipline or another. No need to over-think things: Just find a practice and practice it; be as confused or delighted as you like ... just practice and see what happens. Put the yes-but's in the hall closet and practice. In this way, when someone asks you if you are a Buddhist, you can tell the truth and say "yes" or "no" as you please ... and not as it pleases someone else.
If any of that makes much sense....
Sure!
We humans are messy, even in our enlightenment.
Agree with @genkaku - practice makes awesome. The only good dharma is the practiced.
Anyways ... you think you have it tough? What about those Jubus, ChristoBodhi, DervishDharmahists and similar cross fertilisations.
OM ZENNI PEMI MU as I said to the hand without the clap ...
@Rowan1980, Now that the 'sapient & wise' and the 'crazy but insightful' are both out of the way (
) I will simply tell you how it is with me...
I don't cherry pick.
That is to say, I don't adhere to the bits I like, and reject the bits I don't.
What I do, is selectively practise.
There are aspects of Theravada which are too deep, sombre and straitlaced for my liking.They suit some, but I find them difficult to follow and laborious.
I'm not rejecting them. I come to them occasionally and try to absorb what wisdom I can from them, but then halt when it all gets a bit too much.... But I lay it aside until some other time, when my frame of mind may be more receptive.
A similar thing goes for Tibetan Buddhism.
I don't believe, myself, personally, that a whole load of colourful ceremony, ritual and multitudinous hosts of varying Buddhas is necessarily the way to go; I prefer to keep it simple. But there are aspects of Tibetan Buddhism which deeply resonate, and are both meaningful and useful to me. And some of their teachers are the mutt's nuts! What insight and good humour they have!
So each to their own.
I'm predominantly drawn to Theravada, but enjoy incorporating aspects of Tibetan Buddhism. This to me, is not 'Tradition mash up'. This is taking what the Buddha taught, and what has evolved since, and putting it into as skilful a practice as I can....
Do you ever wish to join a sangha with a 'sangha leader' or teacher?
It's like feeling different parts of an elephant
What you call "mash-up," Rowan, I call "synthesis."
This has been my eternal existential doubt: my heart swoons over Zen, Chan and Theravada, but I always end up in Tibetan sanghas because in the city where I live, Tibetan schools are better represented.
I do a lot of homework on the side, though, and at home I read bibliography from all schools.
I can't remember who it was, but an enlightened Buddhist soul said that it is much better to learn from a good book than from a bad teacher.
Don't feel that you have to marry one tradition, Rowan.
Join a good sangha, and complement your learning with bibliography from the schools you feel more affinity with.
I practice Tibetan Buddhism. I belong to a sangha and have a teacher, well 2 teachers but one is definitely my main teacher. I have a curriculum of sorts that I follow and I go to him with questions and so on (along with the sangha).
But I read things from Theravada, Zen, and Shambhala. I find things within each of them that help me understand my practice better, and supplement what I learn from my teacher. If I get confused, I ask him what he thinks about it, and so on. Many members of our sangha are the same. Some are very devout, they are at a place where they understand much better than me and are on a strict path. I'm not there. One day I might be. Our local sangha leader (our teacher and main sangha is based 250 miles away) is a Dzogchen practitioner but that is not what we focus on as a main group. So when he hosts dzogchen retreats, I don't go because right now I find much of it confusing. Keith Dowman was just here this past weekend, I would have liked to have gone but we are too busy with graduation stuff right now. This summer Lama Tony Duff (one of Trungpa's students) will be here for a 6 week residency teaching. I am looking forward to that and will be attending all that I can. He is my second teacher. I am pretty committed to my Tibetan path, but I find help from others as well. The conflict is minimal and I have to occasional arrive at a consensus on my own, which I am ok with.
I took refuge with my primary teacher almost 3 years ago. I was practicing for about 18 months prior to that. 4.5 years is nothing of course, so I don't feel bad about dabbling. I know what I am practicing. The details of how to accomplish it are a back-burner issue for me.
For what it's worth, I belong to a Zen school that is of Korean origin. While that is where I physically go to practice, I am not averse to exploring teachings from other sources, even non-Buddhist ones. As time goes by, I see more and more similarities between humanity's attempts at finding meaning.
Remember that many people do not have that kind of access to centers and temples, though. For those who have that access, what a blessing! By all means, check them out and visit with people. But not all of us have that option.
Initially I saw the schools as spiritual one up man ship. Each rewriting and interpreting the teachings in their own fashion to suit them.
But I see now that not one school is the correct or best because each person is diverse. Not everybody is suited to paint the same way, to train the same way, to eat the same food.
We have kinaesthetic learners, audio and visual learners. Who says one way is the best?
I follow what I see as the truth, I'm following what gets me to the core of the teachings without all the spiritual religious smoke and mirrors
Sometimes the schools merge bit I wouldn't say I follow a particular school. I look at the pointing of people who have seen through the illusion.
my teacher says it is more 'lineages' than sects. That means that different people convey their understanding differently and they have a line of the most accomplished students that gets passed down.
In my experience mixing up traditions and practices can become confusing, because each tradition has different methods and assumptions. It can also lead to the digging of many shallow wells, never really going into any one thing deeply enough to understand what it really is.
What you might consider though is a Zen holiday from Tibetan Buddhism.
Thank you for your feedback, folks. To answer @Jeffrey, I currently attend a dharma center on a fairly regular basis. I think I'm still looking, as it were. I don't drive, so I'm very limited. Living in Maine, which is not terribly populated in comparison to land mass, doesn't help.
I have been eyeballing Zen centers, and I have also been looking at listings in Massachusetts in the off-chance that I can check out stuff when I visit them.
Part of it is that I need to stop beating myself up into thinking that I need to absolutely commit to a specific tradition right now. I've been practicing for just shy of a year, and I'm definitely drawn to the Dharma. I'm trying to relax and be open to how actual practice could manifest over time.
@Rowan1980
What was Tibetan or Zen, when the Buddha was teaching?
Just manifest his teachings with your practice and become as a blown leaf before it's Dharmic wind.
Within such freedom, who is there to choose Tibetan or Zen?
@Rowan1980, my recommendation is do what feels right to you. If it ends up being "right", then you're going in the right direction. If it ends up not being "right", change course. It's as much a journey as it is a destination.
C.S. Lewis talks about this in his book Mere Christianity. Although he writes about it in the Christian context, it's a neat analogy.
His basic premise is that when you enter Christianity, it's like being in a corridor with a bunch of rooms leading off to each side. Methodist, Catholic, Baptist, etc.; each is a different room. The thing is that the hallway, while giving you options isn't the best place to hang around. The rooms are where there's furniture and other people and all the good stuff. So, you can try a room out. If it works for you, great. If you think another room might be better, you can always go back out to the hallway, and check out other rooms. The point is not to be stuck in the corridor, or any of the particular rooms. Explore!
FWIW, I personally have just stepped into the corridor, and have only started to check out some of the 'rooms' in Buddhism.
"When the student is ready the teacher will appear!"
@Rowan1980
The teachers I have 'physically' attended Dharma talks and initiations with have all been Tibetan, however I'm open to Buddhist teachings regardless of what school...
I listen to different Dharma talks from Theravada, Mahayana (including different schools of Zen) via the internet (Cyber Gurus so to speak)
Wisdom
A Canadian man on Insight Timer talked to me very highly of Treeleaf the other day.
I did not take a look yet, but it seems to be a very well-known -and complete with courses and chat- online Zen sangha.
I deeply love the work of Thich Nhat Hanh, too, and late Chan master Sheng Yen, from Dharma Drum Mountain.
If I could choose a sangha by spiritual affinity it would be either of them.
I also like Theravadans like Bhikkhu Bodhi or Nyanatiloka Thera.
But then, I also like HH the Dalai Lama, ChögyamTrungpa, Thubten Chodrom and Pema Chödron.
Who says we have to choose?
Indeed
Bring your relaxed Zen buttocks to the Dhyana (Zen focus) and your Tantra buttocks for the Lama thread.
We haz plan!
If you have a Zen monk to guide you in person, go with Zen.
If you have a Tibetan monk to guide you in person, go with Tibetan. The Tibetans say that Vajrayana will "drive you crazy" if you don't have personal guidance ... and from the psychological perspective, it can destabilize you if you are going it alone.
If you have a Theravadan monk to guide you in person, practice Theravadan.
If you have no live teacher .. practice Theravadan. The methods used will produce results without guidance, and will not harm you.
Yeah, Theravada is the original and best, hurrah!
No need for bells and whistles, no need to be hit with sticks, no need to re-invent the Wheel, small is beautiful, hurrah!
This seems to contradict what you stated here:
By practicing on your own, you will have developed a lot of false concepts that the teacher will have to undo.
Definitely worth a look, and let us know how you get on.
Let us know how it goes @Rowan1980 . We're going through some of the same stuff by the sounds of it.
How exciting.
Soon you will be zazened, beaten (allegedly), walking around in circles, watching paint dry and wearing black T-shirts.
No hope for the dharmafied.
Eventually, either through a conscious decision or circumstance (karma
But in the meantime, it's all Buddhism, so don't sweat it.
@Rowan1980, As regards discernment, listen to you Buddha wisdom. Here's to happy messes :-)
Who or what is it that would become jinxed @Rowan1980 ? (Your first Koan
) Jokes aside, may it all work out well for you... 