Isolation and Solitude
Nehan
Brazil New
Isolation is the act of driving yourself away from any form of social contact. It's reasons dwells between mental issues and low self-esteem. Usually, its used to run away from some form of menance or some past deeds.
Solitude is when one, by his own will, searches for some time alone for an determined period of time. Usually, its used to think about oneself and know more about the self.
But I have a hard time to tell isolation from solitude since both actions seem to be the same to most people. I don't know whether someone is doing a research about his true self or if he's entering the path of insanity and self-destruction since I never follow their lonely moment to see their progress (or regress).
How you can tell if a person is trying to know herself or trying to hurt herself?
Comments
Interesting questions - ponderings, @Nehan. Your first paragraph is kinda judgmental - even if you are judging yourself and/or others. But it's okay because everything could be categorized as mental. I think. I'm pretty sure that isolation and solitude kind of blend or cross over. Sometimes people choose to isolate, but it's less a 'mental crime' to seek solitude.
I think even the Buddha could have been categorized this way. I don't think there's much of a point to trying to figure out if someone is trying to hurt themselves by being alone. Just be there for them, I guess.
Also some people aren't good at socializing for various reasons. So even if they want or attempt to avoid isolation they have a hard time avoiding it.
Hello
Does the isolation/solitude cause dukkha?
For example a member of my family is very isolated because she is being chased by her own demons. We have to be the demons she can just about cope with and feel less isolated.
Other members often choose solitude (lobster raises claw) but do not feel isolated/marginalised/fried by dukkha ... I like people and engage as required.
Good plan.
Find out what they actually do for themselves during their solitary isolation...
I sometimes isolate myself, and it's mostly when I feel an urge towards solitude, not to run from anything but it arises from within.
It's an opportunity for introspection, a possibility to develop mindfulness and awareness of the internals of the mind. Whether the effect of solitude is positive is hard to tell for an outsider - signs of agitation, comfort eating, turning to alcohol, and potentially signs of impending delusion or even psychosis could happen, but if they are not talking to you you won't know what's going on in their thoughts.
Usually where you are coming from is a good indication of what will happen. Someone who isolates themselves after losing a loved one is more likely to experience something negative than a painter who withdraws into his work and temporarily forgets the world. If they have pets they are usually going to be ok, pets keep you in touch with the emotional, caring world.
I think you may have added an unnecessary element of complexity in the definitions. Actions and reasons are two different entities. By incorporating reasons into the definitions of the actions you may have created a tangle.
You can see the action. If you want to know the reason, why not start with simply asking?
Are there any signs of depression? What impressions do you get about her general state of mind? Has there been any discussion about it?
People can be very different, some are content with their own company, others need to be around people.
Excellent @Nehan! My guess is that everyone starts out with a similar set of doubts. Is Buddhism a path to liberation or a one-way ticket to the nut house? How can I know that Buddhist practices are not just a soothing camouflage for actual-factual difficulties that the student is reluctant to address?
Honest answer: I don't know yet because the base of experience is too shallow. So then the question becomes, shall I continue or drop the whole thing like a hot potato? Answer: If the meditation or other practices do not hurt others and if I feel some affinity to their teachings, I will continue: It's a crapshoot (I don't yet know the outcome), but since I would like to become more level-headed, it's worth the experiment. Will I follow a path that is devoid of mistakes? Probably not, but miscues are part and parcel of Buddhist training. Mistakes R Us.
So, gently but firmly, pursue the experiment. See what happens rather than expecting something to happen. Sometimes it's scary, sometimes it's joyful ... whatever it is, do it anyway. If it becomes too painful, slow down and step back. If it becomes too joyful, slow down and step back. Just go gently but firmly. Right or wrong, you can't go wrong.
Best wishes.
By asking the question,...This person may just be waiting for someone/a 'friend' to ask how they are feeling
Lately I find myself isolating myself to avoid lashing out in anger, either at myself or others - usually others. I find that if I am in a "normal" social situation and find myself getting angry, I can't calm down or focus unless I am alone.
It's a bit disquieting but until I can figure it out, better safe than sorry.
Just my 0.02
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It's hard to say, because when we are different from the other person, we view their world with our lenses. Thus we might see depression because we think we would be depressed if we were in the condition they are in. However, them being in that condition might actually alleviate depression. It's pretty hard to see someone else's world from our point of view.
I spend a lot of time in solitude. i am not isolated, as I have a husband, 3 kids, parents nearby, pets, and a handful of close friends. I am with people every day and I am happy to be so. But I am also grateful for my solitude and I set time aside for that every day, so I can seek solitude even within my house full of family and pets. I could not (IMO) seek isolation in the same setting. I have learned that I can seek solitude within myself even when there are things going on around me. I enjoy isolation on occasion.
However, if you ask my extremely engaging and social mother, she thinks my time alone is unhealthy. That doesn't make it so. She just cannot see my point of view and my needs, and instead places her needs on my situation and assumes I am suffering when i am not. I spend my time meditating, studying, doing yoga, writing letters, writing in my journal, taking care of myself. I am a good friend and partner to myself, and I see nothing wrong with that. Doing so makes me a better partner for my husband and a better mom to my children.
I appreciate your answers, folks.
The best answer I've read is the one above.
In fact, our point of view might try to answer whether they're suffering or not. But it's an answer to us not to them.
We should really approach those who dove into their mind to see if they're analyzing themselves or torturing themselves.
You can be in a room full of people and still feel isolated. Solitude does not come with the feeling of isolation. That is just our baggage.
Good points made.
In solitude, you are not alone. Solitude enables you to strengthen connections, to re-connect, to add new connections...
In isolation, you are absolutely alone, be it on a desert island or in a crowded room. You have no connections, no real contact. You are in the isolation chamber of the mind.
That is where the the real difference lies - in your mind. Then moment you open to another, your isolation dissipates.
Using an analogy: Isolation is being lost in a thick fog, directionless while solitude is looking out upon a clear sunny day to a wonderful vista of possibilities.
Oops! Time to get back to my cocoa.
Peace to all
"I"solation = big "I" involvement....Sol"i"tude = the "i" does not play such a big role...
Try telling that to a segregated inmate....
The word 'isolation' comes from the Latin/Italian 'Isola' meaning Island.
the word solo/sola means alone.
This is more of an imposed existence. Imposed by Geography or condemnation. Remember Napoleon was imprisoned on an Island.
Solitude is a self-generated desire to be alone.
Isolation holds a cruel shunning aspect.
Solitude is often a welcome interlude 'Far from the madding crowd.' Wordworth lauded it, when he contemplated The Daffodils... "...the inward eye which is the bliss of solitude...."
Solitude is an existence of free choice.
Isolation is an imposition of circumstance, either real or imagined.
We can feel isolated, even when surrounded by a crowd.
Solitude has to be done alone.
Isolation is actually a neutral word, and a synonym for solitude.
In prison somebody might be put in solitary confinement, with that example solitude is often a punishment. It all depends on context.
For me I guess that solitude has more to do with a place. I personally do not feel solitude if I am enmeshed in the world. I can be alone in a home, but if the noises of life are present, it's not solitude to me. Solitude, to me, is being out in the woods miles from another person, with no cars, no planes, no chainsaws and life noises. One of the reasons I live here is because that type of solitude is easily accessible, and hundreds of thousands of people visit the area I live in because it is one of the few areas you can do so.
But I can feel isolated in the middle of a big party. In fact, I often do. It is more of a social state of mind versus the expansive one that solitude expresses for me.
As for prison, "solitary" is really much more isolation. You are made to feel abandoned and alone, but you are subject to all the horrific sounds of the place and everyone else. It is psychological torture and not at all representative of what the word can mean.
On the other hand people go on solitary retreats in order to isolate themselves.
Summary: Context is all, both to speaker and listener.
And the word 'dove' in the context of being the past tense of 'dive' (as opposed to being the name of a pigeon-like bird) still sits badly in the British Ear. Here, we say 'Dived'. To us, it's not an irregular verb. Strictly N. American/Canadian thing. Yet it jars.
^^ (Grammar-Nerd post written on NYDay 2018. Starting as I mean to go on, folks. You have been WARNED!!)
When comforting a Grammar-Nerd, I always say softly, "There, They're, Their...."
Come hither, @IronRabbit ; approach and be ye slapped with a Cos lettuce. Infidel.
Oh...that post's suitable for framing, @IronRabbit.
Awesome @IronRabbit . Surely what is in our heart is more important than grammar.
The only 'no' is Number 7.
They're slanted to USA Grammar.
Reprehensible.
(You could do with a comma after 'heart' but it's not mandatory.)
I don't mean this disrespectfully @federica so please take it in the right spirit.
I think that once we can all understand one another and communicate, that is what is important here in NB. Many people many be ok with it but correcting anothers grammar in a public forum (not privately) may be embarrassing for that person. English is not everyones first language here either. If every piece of incorrect grammar is pounced on it is more like an English grammar lesson and it may make people wary of making mistakes.
Just my 2 cents and others may see it completely differently. ?
Actually, I figured it out. I choose to isolate myself because the majority of people in my life choose to let me down. And isolation is better for their well being (and mine) than the alternative.
(I wish I was joking).
@dhammachick I'd start to wonder why I had so many people in my life who let me down, and what I could do to better find supportive people to offer that space in my life. Sometimes we can't so easily disown people like our parents or even children. But most of the time we choose, in some capacity, to keep people in our lives and to put expectations in place that consistently means those same people will never meet our expectations. Either expectations needs to change, or the place those people hold in your life needs to be adjusted. In my experience, of course.
@Hozan I think it's mostly just in good fun. And if English isn't someone's first language, then helping them to communicate better in English (since they are opting to be in an English-speaking forum) is generally good for all. Clear communication is of the utmost importance, especially online when words are all we have. A simple, misplaced comma can change the entire meaning of a sentence, and such misunderstandings have happened here before. I rarely correct anyone's grammar, as I tend to assume that it was a simple mistake or they are on a device which has its own ideas about spelling and grammar
But I frequently correct the grammar of those in my household so they don't go out in the world sounding like they don't know what they are talking about because it leads to people not taking you seriously, and worse, can affect your ability to get jobs and such.
@karasti I agree that incorrect grammar can cause misunderstandings. Fair enough. Situations where everybody clearly understands what is being communicated, however, do not require grammar correction or intervention. Where do we draw the line between useful correction of grammar and nit picking?
Well, since we don't get to draw the lines for other people, then we have to make the choice to draw a line over what bothers us/pokes us, and what doesn't. We make the choice to get annoyed. We can also make the choice to find the fun and light-heartedness in it. We can choose to ignore it completely. We can choose to learn something. Most of the time I find when such things bother me, it's because they are right, and it's my ego reacting out of being "corrected." But I can choose not to react out of my ego.
Well it was all meant in fun until that came along....
I've been a Moderator on this forum for 13 years and if you think in all that time I havent been aware of appropriate behaviour, different languages and nuances of the formal and the vernacular, then I obviously can't have been doing my job properly.
Point well made @karasti . Personally I have no problem with my grammar being corrected here or anywhere else. Working in the field of education I have seen how students react differently to being corrected in a public setting. It is worth considering that uneccessary grammar correction might be left alone. It may adversely affect the confidence and well being of some people. If it is an uneccessary correction my opinion would be to let it slide. You would have to ask what is the point of grammar correction when it hasn't affected the efficacy of the communication or message.
Just my humble opinion.
Just curious @federica as to why you made a grammar correction to a post on this thread that was understood by everybody and was also a number of months old. Personally I cannot understand that. Thats all. If it is made in jest, it is in jest at anothers mistake. Personally if that person is me, I am 100% fine with that. Not everybody might be fine with it though. Another person might find that demoralising or embarrassing. I don't think there is a need to correct grammar that has no impact on the clarity of a post. To me that is nit picking and we can't be sure how it will be received by the original poster. I am perfectly happy to agree to disagree with you about it @federica .
Obviously grammar correction is needed when a post is in danger of being misunderstood or misinterpreted.
Maybe I'm a doormat, or a loser in general.
Ok. I'll get right on that
I'm very glad you clarified that......
No @dhammachick you are anything but a doormat or loser. Try Warrior. It fits you.
@Hozan indeed, it is important to always know your audience, but I think most of the time, Fed does, and that's why it can be assumed that it's all in fun and she'll often point out that it is in nit-picky fun. Kids are a bit different, though, as they are still developing and the way they manage themselves in front of peers is quite different
@dhammachick Not a lower in the slightest. I'd never think that of you. Just that for myself, I know that if something is having such an effect on me that it regularly impacts how I feel about myself or life in general, then it's time to change something in whatever ways I have control of. If our expectations are to be treated decently as a fellow human and someone can't even meet that, then they will never learn otherwise if they are permitted to continue it.
Good point. Well made. @karasti ?
...
I often wonder if this is not the case for some lurkers who can read reasonably well but lack grammar and spelling skills (example, for someone like myself for whom English grammar and spelling at school was a nightmare...I struggled at school )...
It can be quite intimidating for those who lack these skills, even if it is not the intention of those so-called grammarists to intimidate ...for the most part they just want to (politely in most cases) correct what they perceive to be an error...
We often do what we have been conditioned to do (force of habit)...and continue to condition ourselves to do (enforcing the habit) and in some instances if things don't go the way we would like them to go (going against our conditioning), it can (if one lets it) be quite frustrating, which produces a strong desire to fix it (for one's mental well being) at all cost...well so it would seem at the time
However I find that for the most part, if one is patient,( and don't jump the gun) one can work out what's being said and if unsure, a polite "I'm not quite sure what you mean" should do it...And as for spelling, I think for the most part one can mentally correct the error without having to correct/humiliate/embarrass the poster...
Um which reminds me...Many moons ago I was visiting friends in Denmark (Arhus) and one of their friends called around, anyhow we were sitting having a chat and cup of tea, and I comment on how well their friend spoke English (he was fluent and with an Oxford accent to boot) and what amazed me more was he had never visited an English speaking country...I was also fascinated by the fact he could understand my bush-Cockney accent (Bush meaning it had a slight Aussie twang to it) so I ask him...He said "It's easy ! When I think an "H" should be at the beginning of a word I mentally put one there, and then you make sense!"
Strangely enough and for many fortunately
I am not you, you are not me
We are in this sense isolated or on our own
However ... we are also an amalgam/result of our individual attributes. Hence good company of dharma practitioners ...
Last year was pretty difficult for me in the social relationships department.
I consider myself to be the nicest and most easy-going person to get along with.
Beyond all the dragon blustering, I do have a really good heart and I am very accomodating.
But I am also extremely colourful, verbal, do not take anyone's BS and do not water myself down to please anyone.
I am pretty self-assured and do not have any hang-ups.
And that does not agree well with many people.
Especially women.
I have noticed that some women get particularly poisonous around me, probably because -I don't know how to put this mildly- I get much male attention.
Which is extremely disappointing to me, because as a member of all sorts of wild women sisterhoods, I keep building women up, motivating them to embrace their femininity, so put-downs from traumatised alpha females are totally uncalled-for.
Once again, I did keep making some disappointing experiences with good women friends last year, and it was also a frustrated woman who led to my getting banned from IT.
But after much soul-searching, I have decided that I will not isolate myself nor allow for people's personal issues to dull my shine.
And you should do the same, @dhammachick.
People tend to resent people who do not fear to water down their uniqueness.
People do let us down because we expect too much from them.
So my most important New Year's resolution is that this year I will care even less what people, especially women, think of me.
And I will not isolate myself, but be even louder.
Edit: this post probably belongs more in the Rant and Vent section.
It has been a particularly disappointing year for me, parting with some dear friends, and I guess my frustration, while I am still working through the mourning process, does show.
My apologies for venting
I didn't correct anybody's grammar at all. I pointed out a difference between British English and American English. So you are incorrect on point one.
Neither can I. It appeared in my 'recent posts' feed. Go figure. Because of its presence, I omitted to check the date. My oversight. My bad. (A Mod making a mistake? Imagine that - impossible, surely? )
There was no mistake. It was a grammatical difference between one country's grammar and another.
After all this, I somehow doubt it. Hence my refraining from correcting your post.
You'll have to agree with me, because in this case, I happen to be correct, in that it was not a grammatical correction at all.
I'll review all posts hitherto, and act accordingly.
Back ASAP. (This could take a moment or two....)
You are absolutely correct @federica in this instance it was not a correction but a difference between two countries but you really have deliberately chosen to ignore the wider point I make and use this one instance to refute it.
Really though I refer to the many grammar corrections you have made over time.
You may doubt my willingness to have my own grammar corrected but i can tell you hand on heart that you are 100% wrong on that one. I am fine with it but not everybody might be.
I feel you have missed the genuine point I was making in favour of an "I'm right, You're wrong, So there!" type response. That is your right.
I was genuinely bringing up this not to attack or criticize at all but as a genuine concern. I do not think it neccessary to correct grammar that doesn't affect the efficacy of a mesage. I refer to times beyond the "dove" which I agree was not a correction but a comparison.
I understand "we have been WARNED" is probably said in jest but behind it lurks the correction that may make some people afraid to post in fear of being publicly scolded or embarrassed by a error in grammar. An unneccesary grammar correction also takes the focus away from the original message - its a buddhist forum!
Its just my 2 cents and I'm trying to make a genuine point here. I am certain I have made grammatical errors in this post but I am also certain everybody can understand what i have typed. Get out the red pen and correct if you like @federica lol. I honestly don't mind. When you make unneccessary grammar corrections in a public forum though maybe it is wise to ask yourself your motivation for doing so.
All of this is only my humble opinion and people may agree or disagree. My motivation for expressing my opinion was a genuine concern that unneccessary grammar correction may actually deter potential posters (lurkers) or current posters for fear of being publicly embarrassed.
When I hear the word dove in that sentence I can only think of the bird XD
I can get pretty lazy with grammar especially online, and sometimes I make up my own grammar to express the way in which I speak. Tbh I don't really like the way the way English flows as a language compared to something like Japanese, then again overtime I've gotten used to it
Also with regards to solitude, it can be good to get away from other people and reflect sometimes. It can get unhealthy long term perhaps, but we all need some time alone I'd think.
I find english to be so overly wordy, with so many words that are spelled the same or just sound the same but are all different. It's rather a nightmare, lol I always enjoyed native languages, as they seem to have fewer words overall and get to the point with far fewer words, which leaves more time for silence.
I used to work in a help desk where we were contracted for the UK side of the business, and it was always a great joy to get to work with them because they always sound cheerful and funny even when they are really POd
I learned a great many fun words from the UK co-workers who visited our US office. It's funny because when I say "I dived!" in my head, it sounds like a 3 year old speaking. "I dove" sounds so different from the bird Dove that they are basically not even the same word, but fall under the previously mentioned nightmare of American English.
@Hozan We still have to leave room for people to be who they are, though. I think it's good to bring up the point and we should always think about how what we say is received by others, especially in a forum where there are always lurkers who do not know us, our relationships with each other, and our silly interactions. But, if they are afraid to jump in because of that, it might not be the best forum for them anyways, are there are hoards of Buddhist forums where that personal interaction is at a minimum and it's all sutras and information but no connection. Not everyone wants that connection, but many of the people here do and I think that's a big part of why we are all here. Just like members graciously put up with my far too often tl;dr posts and my constant analogies! If we walk on egg shells to try to guess what lurkers are picking up, then what would the forum become?