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An observation from your friendly local Moderator...
@PJK I'd wonder why you referred to it the way you did, and you asked for our thoughts on what you were doing. We gave you our thoughts, and now you are upset at what we think. I do understand stage presence. But that isn't what you referred to it as, and you implied that you see a potential problem with what you do by saying you encourage attachment etc and asking what we thought. To me "putting on a front" implies something different from "stage presence" which is nothing but the moments you are on stage doing the job. Perhaps your front carries over more into your regular life and that is where it causes you problems with your practice.
We can only control ourselves, you cannot make someone else be attached to something. That is their responsibility to worry about. It was the other part of it that I took issue with, not as a judgement of you, but your attachment to this false front/stage presence seems more of a concern than the other part you stressed (about making people drink more and be attached). You also said it sometimes felt the 2 (Buddhist spiritual life and performance) were incompatible. But have you looked at why? Because maybe having to pretend you are someone else as your job takes more of a toll on you than you think it does.
Personally, my practice has been suffering lately. "Real life" has been taking a toll, and adversely affecting my practice. See here if you want a blow-by-blow description of my travails. I completely stopped meditating for several weeks. As @lobster would say, I iz bad Buddhist.
However, things have settled down some lately and I've been getting back into meditating. Anger has been cropping up lately (stress, probably), so I'm working on that. A change in my work schedule has resulted in less free time, but more sleep (long explanation) and it seems to be suiting me.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@PJK said:
I was talking really as a person who has to put a front on just to do their job.
Its hard to distinguish sometimes who you actually are..if you understand what I'm saying
A deed is worth a thousand words. A word is worth a thousand rumours. That's the standard I usually use when forming an opinion of who someone really is, it gives you an interesting perspective on say the likes of El Presidente Trump.
I do get what you're saying but there have been some who made good money in the rock'n'roll business by singing about other subjects than the attachments. Dire Straits come to mind, or Stevie Wonder, or The Police / Sting. They may not have been Buddhists, but their songs are about more than just materialism or love. Perhaps some of the material can be adapted?
Dire Straits...money for nothing and the chicks for free.
Stevie Wonder...living for the city
Police...every breath you make
Every song in existence is about attachment.
Of course you can pick songs of theirs which are about attachment, but there are many which are not... Stevie Wonder's Superstition, for one, or The Police's Walking on the Moon. But the fact that instead of looking at the good songs they wrote, you actively search for ones that are less beneficial, suggests to me that you are attached to your own point of view and not truly committed to taking action to improve your lot. Perhaps something to think about? Visiting Buddhist forums can be a bit like encountering a mirror, it can be helpful.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Tiddlywinds said:
Hey guys................
Let's aim for compassion, love, warmth, kindness - any chance of de-escalation?
Believe me, @Tiddlywinds: the sparring here is nothing compared to others we have had in the past.
The heavy artillery is not out yet...
Moderator note
(in case anyone was in any doubt):
Trust me, @DhammaDragon , @Tiddlywinds , being an avid and conscientious objector, the 'heavy artillery' is not even going to make it out of mothballs. Not on my watch, it isn't.
I trust those experienced in this Forum's interactions will put that experience to good use and refrain from perpetuating any kind of tussle. New members may be given a measure of leeway. Up to a point.
But once that point is reached, there is a tacit and implied invitation to remain - on good terms - or not.
Edit to add (ETA): I did state in my first post that this was not a 'rap knuckles thread'. It's sad to see that things have turned out to be just that...
@nakazcid said:
Personally, my practice has been suffering lately. "Real life" has been taking a toll, and adversely affecting my practice. See here if you want a blow-by-blow description of my travails. I completely stopped meditating for several weeks. As @lobster would say, I iz bad Buddhist.
I know what you mean, sometimes shit just happens, and getting through it becomes the priority. I have found though there is always a benefit from previous practice, even though it might not be obvious when we are in the middle of a crisis.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@nakazcid said:
Personally, my practice has been suffering lately. "Real life" has been taking a toll, and adversely affecting my practice. See here if you want a blow-by-blow description of my travails. I completely stopped meditating for several weeks. As @lobster would say, I iz bad Buddhist.
I know what you mean, sometimes shit just happens, and getting through it becomes the priority. I have found though there is always a benefit from previous practice, even though it might not be obvious when we are in the middle of a crisis.
I think the proof of the pudding is in how we manifest that learning, both during the Good times and the Bad. It's very easy to 'Love thy Neighbour' when the going's good, the sun is shining, we have a full belly and a full pocket, and all's right with the world.
But as you say, @SpinyNorman, It's actually when shit happens, the sky turns dark and the way unclear, that the teachings should - SHOULD - come into their own.
My father used to say, "Patience and Perseverance will fuck a flea."
I get what he meant....and the way to Patience and perseverance, is through Practice. 24/7.
I used to get upset (not quite that strong but I can't think of a better word) when my practice would seem to wane just when life got hard. But when I started writing about it I found that my practice really didn't wane. Just the more tangible aspects of it did. I actually found my concern over lack of motivation to meditate or do yoga caused more harm to the foundation of my practice than the "missing" element. All of my days of keeping up with my practice allowed me to carry through more smoothly. I could breathe through moments instead of reacting. I could pause before speaking. Not perfectly, but more often. My practice DOES work. Just because I might not meditate in a time of stress doesn't mean all the previous meditations aren't doing what I'd hoped they'd do.
This upcoming Thursday is Thankgiving in the states. My college son is coming on Wednesday from 300 miles away. My inlaws are coming from 600 miles away. And my sister is coming from 250 miles away. All different directions. We got a foot of snow yesterday and are expecting 6 or more inches Tuesday night into Thursday morning. CRAP. I read that forecast, and within seconds was in a frenzy. I was pacing trying to think of what to do. I picked up my phone to text my son to say "maybe you should see if you can leave early on Tuesday instead of Wednesday" (he is riding with a friend). My brain was days ahead and quickly becoming upset over the possible events. The thought of my son sitting in his dorm over Thanksgiving was about to reduce me to tears. He loves family traditions and I was already thinking "If I have to drive there to get him and drive home in one day, I will dammit."
But as I picked up my phone to text him, I paused. I took a couple of breaths. And I put it down. The forecast is horribly inaccurate this far out. My son will do what he wants to do no matter what I tell him. My inlaws and my sister are smart enough to make their own decisions. Stopping to take those few breaths immediately calmed my heart rate, my welling tears, my sense of panic and my shallow breathing. Now everything is ok. We will wait. We will make decisions when it is time to do so. THAT is my practice. A couple years ago we faced almost the same situation for the same holiday, and we spent many hours in a panicked, fast-talking, stressed out place. And in the end, we still could do nothing but wait.
@karasti Unlike in the past, I'm actually not beating myself up too much for slacking off. I'm just picking up where I left off. In an odd way, I guess that's practice at work. And I'm glad you're not freaking out as much about the holidays. They are always stressful, and you need all the calm and peace you can get.
@federica at no point did I say I was putting on a false front...this was somehow superimposed on me by other
members, I said I was encouraging others to drink ect.
As for being sarcastic ect, I was called a nihilist, and basicaly a phoney for discussing a dilemma that comes with the job.
The entertainment industry determins what you sing, as does the audience you can't suddenly change into a completely different act overnight as some suggested.
Taking straight talk should really go both ways.
It was I who was heckled
"No REQUIREMENT to adopt a different persona"? Have you never heard of someone's "stage persona".
Its called show business because people put on a show.
Back to my original post. ..I never said I put on a false front...other "Buddhist"
Invented that for me> @dhammachick said:
@PJK said:
Thanks for your input but kd could prob retire to the Bahamas if she wished.
Making a living as a jobbing muso is
Not as easy as people might think.
I was talking really as a person who has to put a front on just to do their job.
Its hard to distinguish sometimes who you actually are..if you understand what I'm saying
As someone who worked in a few countries as a professional singer in my 20's, I might respectfully suggest that if you "lose yourself" in your work or have problems defining who you are, maybe putting on a front has nothing to with your work but everything to do with you and your perspective. You cannot ever control what someone does, eats, drinks or spends money on. Perhaps you are nihilistic as opposed to Buddhist?
_ /\ _
@dhammachick Thanks awfully for you fantastic appraisal of my my whole psychological makeup and my spiruality too, and all from reading a few sentences, remarkable, so all these years reading the words of the Buddha, studying his teachings, going on retreat to Switzerland ect and I turn out to be nothing but a plain old nihilist. Wow!
Regarding being a performer people have what's known as a 'stage act' because that's what it is, they wear certain clothes, behave in a certain way because that's their stage 'act'.
Maybe someone such as yourself whom I suspect did some "open mike nites" with your own material (off beat folk rock) two chords and a minor type stuff
then maybe a couple vegan cafes on your travels, would not need a stage act as playing to the converted, but everyone else does and has.
Thanks again.
Lol wow such anger from an "experienced" Buddhist. Hit a nerve obviously.
And thanks but no folk singer here or open mic nights, although i did add my own material in sets when I could. I played drums and bass along with being lead singer in several bands in Japan - mainly hard rock, jazz and sometimes pop if it was requested. Oh and I'm a carnivore too
I say this with no malice and genuine sincerity - you sound like you could do with a big hug. Where you felt like being attacked, I cannot see in my post. I was being sincere in giving another take on things. I will withdraw now because it's clear you're not interested in any discussion. Be well.
Hard rock/jazz sounds interestin, ive played bass myself years ago in psychedelic blues bands..its good fun..but shows my age:( the folk singer two chord open mike was an obvious joke (how could anyone know off a few sentences what someone is like)
Ps @dhammachick no anger here..its sometimes hard to distinguish someone's mood off the written word, I just like interesting conversations with interesting people is all.
Nice talking to you x> @Kerome said:
@PJK said:
I was talking really as a person who has to put a front on just to do their job.
Its hard to distinguish sometimes who you actually are..if you understand what I'm saying
A deed is worth a thousand words. A word is worth a thousand rumours. That's the standard I usually use when forming an opinion of who someone really is, it gives you an interesting perspective on say the likes of El Presidente Trump.
I do get what you're saying but there have been some who made good money in the rock'n'roll business by singing about other subjects than the attachments. Dire Straits come to mind, or Stevie Wonder, or The Police / Sting. They may not have been Buddhists, but their songs are about more than just materialism or love. Perhaps some of the material can be adapted?
Dire Straits...money for nothing and the chicks for free.
Stevie Wonder...living for the city
Police...every breath you make
Every song in existence is about attachment.
Of course you can pick songs of theirs which are about attachment, but there are many which are not... Stevie Wonder's Superstition, for one, or The Police's Walking on the Moon. But the fact that instead of looking at the good songs they wrote, you actively search for ones that are less beneficial, suggests to me that you are attached to your own point of view and not truly committed to taking action to improve your lot. Perhaps something to think about? Visiting Buddhist forums can be a bit like encountering a mirror, it can be helpful.
Hi ain't to come across as Mr Contrary but "walking on the moon is a love song using metaphors (breaking leg/ breaking heart)
Superstition is about attachment to belief systems
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@PJK said: @federica at no point did I say I was putting on a false front...this was somehow superimposed on me by other
members, I said I was encouraging others to drink ect.
In my opinion, if it's a front, then it's false. And as for encouraging others to drink, that is in itself, a questionable addition to what you do, isn't it...?
As for being sarcastic ect, I was called a nihilist, and basicaly a phoney for discussing a dilemma that comes with the job.
No, it was suggested, in question form, that perhaps you were a nihilist rather than Buddhist? Because some of what you said smacked of nihilism. And being called a nihilist isn't an insult anyway. I know three nihilists, and we've had a few on here, too... And if you do put up a front, whether it's false or otherwise, as you'd have it, there is a certain phoneyness to it. A Buddhist doesn't encourage people to act unskilfully.
The entertainment industry determins what you sing,
When was the last time anyone in the industry called you, wrote to you or communicated to you that you had to sing what they told you to sing?
There are many singers who do not toe that line and succumb to commercialism or follow like sheep...Leonard Cohen was one, for starters...
as does the audience you can't suddenly change into a completely different act overnight as some suggested.
Oh, I don't know. Have you considered trying it? You might get a completely different audience. But you'd still get an audience.
Taking straight talk should really go both ways.
It was I who was heckled.
No, you were questioned about your comments. 'Straigh talk does not consist of rudeness, sarcasm and insulting people you don't know.
"No REQUIREMENT to adopt a different persona"? Have you never heard of someone's "stage persona".
Yes, I've worked in theatre, and have sung in public. People knew it was an act I put on for the sake of the play, and when I sing, I am who I am. I don't sing about rape, murder, assault, betrayal, hurting people or being callous with other peoples' feelings, because it's not who I am. Just as I don't prescribe to the notion of the 'pleasurable pastimes' of playing war games, or watching horro movoies or gore and violence. Because of what I believe and because of what I feel I stand for. Or won't stand for.
Its called show business because people put on a show.
not if it's a betrayal of who you are. You gave examples of activities which go against what many would consider Buddhist morals and ethics. In other words, you admitted to walking the talk, part-time.
Back to my original post. ..I never said I put on a false front...other "Buddhist" Invented that for me
See my first comment. And your use of inverted commas is yet another sign of sarcasm. Like "Performer"....
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@PJK said:
Yes weaving Buddhism into our daily fabric can be difficult, I'm a rock n roll singer so...ie"well its Saturday night and I've just got paid thought about ma money don't try to save..my heart go go have a time..Saturday nite n ah a feel fine..gonna rip it up gonna rock it gonna ball it gonna rip it uuuuup...have a ball tonite" ect ect.
Its sometimes difficult trying to balance if you like doing this for a living and seeking the truth ...the two don't seem compatable sometimes. .the way I try and get around it is I know I am cheering people up mostly.
Though most songs country especially are singing about attachment.
Occasionally you will get a song like "thy burdens are greater than mine" by hank williams which is almost like the Buddhas noble truth outing.
But in general I'm encouraging folk to drink more and be attached to ego.
Thoughts please!
You got them.
You know what they say about kitchen, heat, and not liking it....
Worked in theatre sang in public...right
I totally understand where you are coming from.
Just incase you didn't understand what a front means its what all entertainers do. Rik Parfitt for instance when his infant child died put one on...because its his job...chuck berry I can assure you does not do the duck walk down the coffee aisle in the supermarket.
The rolling stones were mainly university graduates not the gang of vagabonds they portrayed (mick jagger did not really have a cockney accent..it was a front) the list is endless.
So if you have gigged all week and traveled the length and breadth of the country. ..you have the beginnings of a cold..your relationship is in tatters and your P.A Is having intermittent problems.
You find yourself booked into something like the bar in blues brothers
Yes you can be forgiven for putting on "a front"
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Worked in theatre sang in public...right
I totally understand where you are coming from.
That's sarcasm again, isn't it? You just can't stop yourself, can you?
As I expected, you're either not getting it, or you are totally misinterpreting everything.
Rick Parffit 'put on a front' but that's not to say he was being a different person to the one he was. That's called 'professionalism'. You even said, in your post (and I'm quoting directly, just to avoid any confusion or misinterpretation):
Its sometimes difficult trying to balance if you like doing this for a living and seeking the truth ...the two don't seem compatable sometimes.
Parffit's professionalism is entirely different to your trying to justify one behaviour against another.
Queen's members were also 'University graduates', but why their career as musicians should have been a 'front', is beyond me.
Harrison Ford is a fully-qualified carpenter.
Rowan Atkinson: Electrical engineer (He has a Master's Degree).
Dolph Lundgren (Muscle-bound swedish strong-man) Master's degree in Chemical Engineering.
These are alternative careers. They're not 'putting up a front.'
So if you have gigged all week and traveled the length and breadth of the country. ..you have the beginnings of a cold..your relationship is in tatters and your P.A Is having intermittent problems.
You find yourself booked into something like the bar in blues brothers
Yes you can be forgiven for putting on "a front"
Again, that's not 'a front'. that's resorting to 'professionalism. But to be honest, under the circumstances you've given, I'd take the week off, frankly, and not put myself through having to perform with a disturbed mental state.
I and my mental health are more important than a full bar, and encouraging those around me to drink.
Hey you put sarcasum were it isn't.
Totally understanding where you are coming from was exactly that.
Meaning there is a world of difference between n amateur and a professional. Especially when it comes to understanding a profession that someone is in.
You ignored the instances I gave or seem to want to find fault.
I was pointing the stones acted like yobos as a front when they patently were not.
There are a thousand instances of fronts
Sir cliff an homosexual singing about boy meets girl (like its from a personal standpoint)
The beatles pill popping teddy boys till brian put them in matching suits
And made them every mothers darlings
What harrison ford has got to do with it is behond me
Rowen atkinson????
Feels like a lot of hate vibrating though this post
Chill out.
Life is generaly a front that's what people seek from the Buddha isn't it
@nakazcid said:
Personally, my practice has been suffering lately. "Real life" has been taking a toll, and adversely affecting my practice. See here if you want a blow-by-blow description of my travails. I completely stopped meditating for several weeks. As @lobster would say, I iz bad Buddhist.
I know what you mean, sometimes shit just happens, and getting through it becomes the priority. I have found though there is always a benefit from previous practice, even though it might not be obvious when we are in the middle of a crisis.
-I could not agree more with my Spiny friend...
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@PJK wrote:
Superstition is about attachment to belief systems
But in a good way. You can make an argument that almost everything is about attachment to something, if you want to view it that way. The question is, is the song helping you realise insight or not? For example, I like Bob Marley a lot for writing songs which encourage you to think.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2016
@PJK said:
Hey you put sarcasum were it isn't.
Totally understanding where you are coming from was exactly that.
Meaning there is a world of difference between n amateur and a professional. Especially when it comes to understanding a profession that someone is in.
Only in the amaount of money they earn. There is little difference between being an amateur and a professional, except 'lucky break' and 'money'.
You ignored the instances I gave or seem to want to find fault.
No, I don't believe I did...
I was pointing the stones acted like yobos as a front when they patently were not.
There are a thousand instances of fronts
It's patently clear that your definition of putting on a front, and mine, are completely at odds.
Sir cliff an homosexual singing about boy meets girl (like its from a personal standpoint)
You do realise that's a libellous comment don't you, and that you could be sued for it, now it's in print?
The beatles pill popping teddy boys till brian put them in matching suits
That's a marketing ploy, not putting on a front. It's moving with trends, and creating them. That's what people in showbiz do... Look at Michael Jackson and his single white glove - a fashion statement everyone copied.
And made them every mothers darlings.
Erm, no. The older generation of the time still hated them. This was definitely a marketing ploy aimed at their teen following...
What harrison ford has got to do with it is behond me
Rowen atkinson????
You're the one who gave the initial example of The Rolling Stones being educated University lads. I merely pointed out that these people were too. But that's not 'putting on a front'. It's handling a secondary profession.
Feels like a lot of hate vibrating though this post
Chill out.
I don't hate. I never have and never will. But it seems to me that you are at odds with what putting on a front means, when you purport to be practising a calling that strips everything away, including the Ego that hides behind a mask.
Life is generaly a front that's what people seek from the Buddha isn't it
Not in this camp, not as I've been taught, or understood, no.
I seek what he taught which was to understand dukkha and the transcendence of dukkha.
From what I can gather, you wish to follow Buddhism, but are trying to justify living a lifestyle that goes against that, using the excuse that "it's what's expected of you and you won't survive without the pretence."
@federica said:
....and the way to Patience and perseverance, is through Practice. 24/7.
Ay Curamba, may Donald and all the Dharma Saints preserve us ...
24/7?
Don't we get time out for bad behavour? We haz to be fanatics?
I want a refund!
Mindfulness, sila at all times (see Sangha for details) is a hard path. Armchair Buddhists take note. The spiritual dharma path was started by a warrior prince, who advocated extreme effort.
I'll join but I may have to start part time and try being less naughty ...
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@lobster said:
The spiritual dharma path was started by a warrior prince, who advocated extreme effort.
He was a warrior prince who was given absolutely anything and everything money could buy (greed), then he negated to have anything and everything money could buy (hatred) and then he thought 'maybe moderation is the key'.
Does anyone have hope that the kids of the super-wealthy will give it all up and then decide to become deeply spiritual for the sake of beings?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
While the Dhamma exists there is always that possibility.... I have not personally heard of one, although there are many wealthy people who secretly, silently, anonymously do a great deal of charitable work....I guess that's a start....
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I think @PJK was hoping more for advice on how to cope with the discord between his profession and his Buddhism but he got advice to make a professional change. I know it would be hard for me to take that leap without knowing I would be able to pay my bills.
The best medicine isn't always objective, often the best means what is digestible.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Yes, I take your point @person. I kinda regret getting into it, (hence my departure) but I think of all the responses @PJK received, those from @karasti were probably the most helpful.
From my own PoV, and without wishing to hammer the point home, I don't think reconciliation is always possible. If there is a discord between what we do, and what we practice, then something has to give, or fall by the wayside. Sometimes, if we need to balance things to the extent that something suffers, we need to re-examine what we're doing, why, and try to redress the balance.
Occasionally, a sacrifice has to be made.
Wisdom consists of making the right choice with regard to what gets sacrificed ...
@person said:
I think @PJK was hoping more for advice on how to cope with the discord between his profession and his Buddhism but he got advice to make a professional change. I know it would be hard for me to take that leap without knowing I would be able to pay my bills.
The best medicine isn't always objective, often the best means what is digestible.
I thought PJK is a woman?
As for Right Livelihood... I guess when you figure out how to make money with integrity let me know. As far as I can tell, the sliding scale goes from selling your soul* to living without anything. The question is at what point do you realise that you've actually sold your soul?
*if there was such a thing as a soul
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
No. I think PJK is the man in the middle... the next photo would seem to bear this out...
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Actually, I make a living by being of service to the public, and have no incentive to either have to decide between selling my 'soul' or living without anything. I've never done the former, or felt the need to, but have certainly experienced the latter....
ah maybe. Though you can never really tell how much a photo has been manipulated. Or maybe it's just very good hair & makeup for a good theatrical presentation. Or maybe (heaven forbid!) I'm wrong.
@person said:
I think PJK was hoping more for advice on how to cope with the discord between his profession and his Buddhism but he got advice to make a professional change. I know it would be hard for me to take that leap without knowing I would be able to pay my bills.
The best medicine isn't always objective, often the best means what is digestible.
Hang on a sec. I never advised a professional change, merely a different POV on seeing his/her Buddhist practise and view of self. That's the problem here, people are going of half cocked and not taking time to understand what's being said. There's a difference between listening and understanding in this thread.
@person said:
I think @PJK was hoping more for advice on how to cope with the discord between his profession and his Buddhism but he got advice to make a professional change. I know it would be hard for me to take that leap without knowing I would be able to pay my bills.
The best medicine isn't always objective, often the best means what is digestible.
I thought PJK is a woman?
As for Right Livelihood... I guess when you figure out how to make money with integrity let me know. As far as I can tell, the sliding scale goes from selling your soul* to living without anything. The question is at what point do you realise that you've actually sold your soul?
*if there was such a thing as a soul
Yes @Tiddlywinks, I am a man (last time I looked) this time around.
I think you problem escalated in my post because of my definition of putting on a front. Which I believe we all do to some extend but more so in the entertainment business. Some more that others.
@person said:
I think PJK was hoping more for advice on how to cope with the discord between his profession and his Buddhism but he got advice to make a professional change. I know it would be hard for me to take that leap without knowing I would be able to pay my bills.
The best medicine isn't always objective, often the best means what is digestible.
Hang on a sec. I never advised a professional change, merely a different POV on seeing his/her Buddhist practise and view of self. That's the problem here, people are going of half cocked and not taking time to understand what's being said. There's a difference between listening and understanding in this thread.
@person said:
I think PJK was hoping more for advice on how to cope with the discord between his profession and his Buddhism but he got advice to make a professional change. I know it would be hard for me to take that leap without knowing I would be able to pay my bills.
The best medicine isn't always objective, often the best means what is digestible.
Hang on a sec. I never advised a professional change, merely a different POV on seeing his/her Buddhist practise and view of self. That's the problem here, people are going of half cocked and not taking time to understand what's being said. There's a difference between listening and understanding in this thread.
@PJK said:
Hey you put sarcasum were it isn't.
Totally understanding where you are coming from was exactly that.
Meaning there is a world of difference between n amateur and a professional. Especially when it comes to understanding a profession that someone is in.
Only in the amaount of money they earn. There is little difference between being an amateur and a professional, except 'lucky break' and 'money'.
You ignored the instances I gave or seem to want to find fault.
No, I don't believe I did...
I was pointing the stones acted like yobos as a front when they patently were not.
There are a thousand instances of fronts
It's patently clear that your definition of putting on a front, and mine, are completely at odds.
Sir cliff an homosexual singing about boy meets girl (like its from a personal standpoint)
You do realise that's a libellous comment don't you, and that you could be sued for it, now it's in print?
The beatles pill popping teddy boys till brian put them in matching suits
That's a marketing ploy, not putting on a front. It's moving with trends, and creating them. That's what people in showbiz do... Look at Michael Jackson and his single white glove - a fashion statement everyone copied.
And made them every mothers darlings.
Erm, no. The older generation of the time still hated them. This was definitely a marketing ploy aimed at their teen following...
What harrison ford has got to do with it is behond me
Rowen atkinson????
You're the one who gave the initial example of The Rolling Stones being educated University lads. I merely pointed out that these people were too. But that's not 'putting on a front'. It's handling a secondary profession.
Feels like a lot of hate vibrating though this post
Chill out.
I don't hate. I never have and never will. But it seems to me that you are at odds with what putting on a front means, when you purport to be practising a calling that strips everything away, including the Ego that hides behind a mask.
Life is generaly a front that's what people seek from the Buddha isn't it
Not in this camp, not as I've been taught, or understood, no.
I seek what he taught which was to understand dukkha and the transcendence of dukkha.
From what I can gather, you wish to follow Buddhism, but are trying to justify living a lifestyle that goes against that, using the excuse that "it's what's expected of you and you won't survive without the pretence."
You wanted "Thoughts please!" and you got them.
I'm done, and out of this discussion.
Sorry you are out (can you not have any fun)
The point about the stones is not that they were educated but pretended to be something else..putting on a front they were uncouth rebels..urinating in public and photographed doing so..jagger ditching his posh accent for a cockney one ... Hiring the hells angels as security ect ect
As for being sued by sir cliff, cliff has now openly admits an intimate relationship with ex catholic priest, named fr mcelynn.
If these instances are not putting on a front I really don't know what is
More like blatant fraud.
Best wishes
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2016
...As for being sued by sir cliff, cliff has now openly admits an intimate relationship with ex catholic priest, named fr mcelynn.
He's got some front, that Batchelor Boy....
as for 'having fun', my position determines just how far I should go with exchanges. I may well have exceeded the limit, which is why I pulled out of the argument.
But Fun? Me? Oh, I'm more fun that Suggs's House....
Talking about sarcasm, @PJK, you seem to be pretty fond of the LOL button for comments which are not meant to be funny.
That's pretty sarcastic to me...
Once 'truly' on the path, there's no going back...Nor is there really anything to look forward to...
One can't escape the signs...It's well sign posted...Pointing out the errors of our way
But don't mistake the finger that points to the moon for the moon
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I think it's ironic that a thread begun by a Moderator discussing spouting plaitudes and walking the talk, is the one thread that has become particularly prickly... and let me add I'm not excluding myself from that. But as it's "my" thread, I guess I let myself go a little freely in this one....
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
This is a kind of somewhat relevant, type thing, maybe...
@PJK I am a bit confused, as this is from a response to me, your words, no one else's.
"I was talking really as a person who has to put a front on just to do their job.
Its hard to distinguish sometimes who you actually are..if you understand what I'm saying"
@karasti obviously some didn't understand what I was saying
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
No, @karasti didn't understand what you were saying. I think she's seeking clarification of what you meant by the comment she quoted.
I think some clarification would be of benefit to us all....
Ok..l was speaking broadly as @person pointed out, about the dilemmas faced by anybody in this form based realm of putting Buddha practice into your life.
ie I suppose if you were the owner of a for a non-profit organic food collective with money in the family and a home it the cotwolds it would be easier than being a nightclub doorman working the bloodbaths around the city of manchester and living in a tough council estate (you know every time you shut your window you trap somebody's fingers) (I did the latter for a number of years)..to devote yourself to the Darma
(A cop out maybe)The starting blocks are not set even.
Plus we are all dealing with as Eckhart Tolle says our own conditioned mind each with its own regional national and world view.
The answers I recieved are extreemly helpful and thought provoking thank you
As regards my alleged sarcasum
I'm from Bolton, think Peter Kay.
Everyone talks like that in Bolton he is not a total one off. It a humour that although appears abrasive is self deprecating. .."we are all in it together type of thing"
Thanks again sincerely
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Good, thanks. I appreciate the clarification.
Living in the UK as I do, and having had more than my fair share of hardships (don't worry, it's not a sob-story, honest, I'm so over it, it's almost like talking about a work of fiction!) I truly appreciate how hard it is to get by, make a living, keep a roof over one's head and live day-to-day on what the Government laughingly calls "A living wage".
[Incidentally, on a recent programme on BBC tv, there was a gentleman discussing his business crashing through circumstances which were no fault of his own, and going from being a 2-car family, enjoying foreign holidays three times a year, sending his kids to private schools and enjoying regular visits to good restaurants, to having to live on benefits, sell all his assets, take his kids out of their schools and basically endure a total and complete reversal of fortunes, he also derided and ridiculed the abysmal benefits system which gives a minimum amount of money, in return for a total deprivation of self-worth and dignity. I empathised completely]
I apologise for the digression, but it makes a point I'd like to put forward.
See, while unemployed and on pretty hard times, I had to report on a regular basis to the JobCentre, showing evidence that I was actively seeking work. At that point I would have done anything to get a job, come off benefits and have the advantage of holding down a regular, paid job.
Hold that thought.
I said, 'anything'.
Well, that's not quite true.
I've always worked in the Food/catering & hospitality industry.
I was directed towards a job working at a fishmonger's, where I would have to occasionally take live creatures and kill them, in order for the fishmonger to complete gutting and filleting.
Turned that down.
I was further sent for a job in a restaurant as cleaner of food, where I'd have to prep the shellfish, shucking and cleaning the shellfish out of their shells.
Turned that down too.
I had to explain to the JobCentre why I had turned those jobs down, and it was clear they weren't too impressed by my rationale, but tbh, I didn't really care.
Doing those jobs would have meant going against my principles and Buddhist ethics.
See, it would have meant being who I wasn't.
I do get what you're saying about environment, neighbourhood and social strata being legitimate factors, but this was Bedford and trust me, in every sense of the word - you don't want to go there.
We have had members here, in the Military, asking how they could reconcile their Buddhist premise, with joining the army, and I guess the short 'n' sweet answer is, "you can't."
For my own part, I could not continue doing a job which compromised my principles and morals, and contradicted my Buddhist tenets. My Dignity, and peace of mind are worth more to me that anything money could buy.
Please don't presume that you are the only one facing these dilemmas.
You're not.
We all have dilemmas to face - you're facing yours in the way you choose.
I think we've simply tried to point out that if what you do, contradicts who you are, or wish you were - then something's got to give, and the choice of what gives, is yours.
^What she said
We all have lines we won't cross, and those we are willing to blur a little. Most of us have things we can change to accommodate our highest priorities. In many places, we think we cannot be who we are, but we can. We just have to be brave enough to do so. In other cases, like the examples @federica gave, there is no ability to do so. And then we make a choice. But a lot of people tend to think of themselves as victims of life rather than players within it.
If you are happy with how things are going and the things you do to support your life, then by all means continue on. If you are starting to question it, or feel your job and you don't fit well together, then you need to look into that a bit more and determine what to do about it. It is the insistence you appeared to have that we HAVE to do this that I disagree with. There is always a choice. Always. And every choice has consequences. It is only a matter of which ones we can live with more. As I've gotten older (I am about to hit 41) the more important the consequences to my true nature have become. The consequences of facing friends, answering to family, fitting into an assigned role, following "the rules" etc have become far less important. But when I was in my 20s, they were more important. But as I tell my young adult son, the more you stray from your true nature, the more work it is later in life to find it again. And you will have to do so. Everyone who gives it up in favor of the false front does.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
(Although, bear in mind that @PJK didn't use the term 'false'. Just to be fair. And it was I who replied that if it's a front, to me, that's still 'false'.)
Comments
oh, sorry to hear. More peace. More love. More kindness. These things are always the most rewarding in the long term.
@PJK I'd wonder why you referred to it the way you did, and you asked for our thoughts on what you were doing. We gave you our thoughts, and now you are upset at what we think. I do understand stage presence. But that isn't what you referred to it as, and you implied that you see a potential problem with what you do by saying you encourage attachment etc and asking what we thought. To me "putting on a front" implies something different from "stage presence" which is nothing but the moments you are on stage doing the job. Perhaps your front carries over more into your regular life and that is where it causes you problems with your practice.
We can only control ourselves, you cannot make someone else be attached to something. That is their responsibility to worry about. It was the other part of it that I took issue with, not as a judgement of you, but your attachment to this false front/stage presence seems more of a concern than the other part you stressed (about making people drink more and be attached). You also said it sometimes felt the 2 (Buddhist spiritual life and performance) were incompatible. But have you looked at why? Because maybe having to pretend you are someone else as your job takes more of a toll on you than you think it does.
Dear friends of the performer,
The highest category of formal enactment is the sangha. For the lay performance enhancement we provide:
Deep bow/gasho avec pseudo humility ...
Crowd goes wild. Bodhis in all realms cheering [lobster dharma fantasy world only]
Personally, my practice has been suffering lately. "Real life" has been taking a toll, and adversely affecting my practice. See here if you want a blow-by-blow description of my travails. I completely stopped meditating for several weeks. As @lobster would say, I iz bad Buddhist.
However, things have settled down some lately and I've been getting back into meditating. Anger has been cropping up lately (stress, probably), so I'm working on that. A change in my work schedule has resulted in less free time, but more sleep (long explanation) and it seems to be suiting me.
Of course you can pick songs of theirs which are about attachment, but there are many which are not... Stevie Wonder's Superstition, for one, or The Police's Walking on the Moon. But the fact that instead of looking at the good songs they wrote, you actively search for ones that are less beneficial, suggests to me that you are attached to your own point of view and not truly committed to taking action to improve your lot. Perhaps something to think about? Visiting Buddhist forums can be a bit like encountering a mirror, it can be helpful.
Moderator note
(in case anyone was in any doubt):
Trust me, @DhammaDragon , @Tiddlywinds , being an avid and conscientious objector, the 'heavy artillery' is not even going to make it out of mothballs. Not on my watch, it isn't.
I trust those experienced in this Forum's interactions will put that experience to good use and refrain from perpetuating any kind of tussle. New members may be given a measure of leeway. Up to a point.
But once that point is reached, there is a tacit and implied invitation to remain - on good terms - or not.
Edit to add (ETA): I did state in my first post that this was not a 'rap knuckles thread'. It's sad to see that things have turned out to be just that...
I know what you mean, sometimes shit just happens, and getting through it becomes the priority. I have found though there is always a benefit from previous practice, even though it might not be obvious when we are in the middle of a crisis.
I think the proof of the pudding is in how we manifest that learning, both during the Good times and the Bad. It's very easy to 'Love thy Neighbour' when the going's good, the sun is shining, we have a full belly and a full pocket, and all's right with the world.
But as you say, @SpinyNorman, It's actually when shit happens, the sky turns dark and the way unclear, that the teachings should - SHOULD - come into their own.
My father used to say, "Patience and Perseverance will fuck a flea."
I get what he meant....and the way to Patience and perseverance, is through Practice. 24/7.
@nakazcid @SpinyNorman
I used to get upset (not quite that strong but I can't think of a better word) when my practice would seem to wane just when life got hard. But when I started writing about it I found that my practice really didn't wane. Just the more tangible aspects of it did. I actually found my concern over lack of motivation to meditate or do yoga caused more harm to the foundation of my practice than the "missing" element. All of my days of keeping up with my practice allowed me to carry through more smoothly. I could breathe through moments instead of reacting. I could pause before speaking. Not perfectly, but more often. My practice DOES work. Just because I might not meditate in a time of stress doesn't mean all the previous meditations aren't doing what I'd hoped they'd do.
This upcoming Thursday is Thankgiving in the states. My college son is coming on Wednesday from 300 miles away. My inlaws are coming from 600 miles away. And my sister is coming from 250 miles away. All different directions. We got a foot of snow yesterday and are expecting 6 or more inches Tuesday night into Thursday morning. CRAP. I read that forecast, and within seconds was in a frenzy. I was pacing trying to think of what to do. I picked up my phone to text my son to say "maybe you should see if you can leave early on Tuesday instead of Wednesday" (he is riding with a friend). My brain was days ahead and quickly becoming upset over the possible events. The thought of my son sitting in his dorm over Thanksgiving was about to reduce me to tears. He loves family traditions and I was already thinking "If I have to drive there to get him and drive home in one day, I will dammit."
But as I picked up my phone to text him, I paused. I took a couple of breaths. And I put it down. The forecast is horribly inaccurate this far out. My son will do what he wants to do no matter what I tell him. My inlaws and my sister are smart enough to make their own decisions. Stopping to take those few breaths immediately calmed my heart rate, my welling tears, my sense of panic and my shallow breathing. Now everything is ok. We will wait. We will make decisions when it is time to do so. THAT is my practice. A couple years ago we faced almost the same situation for the same holiday, and we spent many hours in a panicked, fast-talking, stressed out place. And in the end, we still could do nothing but wait.
@karasti Unlike in the past, I'm actually not beating myself up too much for slacking off. I'm just picking up where I left off. In an odd way, I guess that's practice at work. And I'm glad you're not freaking out as much about the holidays. They are always stressful, and you need all the calm and peace you can get.
@federica at no point did I say I was putting on a false front...this was somehow superimposed on me by other
members, I said I was encouraging others to drink ect.
As for being sarcastic ect, I was called a nihilist, and basicaly a phoney for discussing a dilemma that comes with the job.
The entertainment industry determins what you sing, as does the audience you can't suddenly change into a completely different act overnight as some suggested.
Taking straight talk should really go both ways.
It was I who was heckled
"No REQUIREMENT to adopt a different persona"? Have you never heard of someone's "stage persona".
Its called show business because people put on a show.
Back to my original post. ..I never said I put on a false front...other "Buddhist"
Invented that for me> @dhammachick said:
Hard rock/jazz sounds interestin, ive played bass myself years ago in psychedelic blues bands..its good fun..but shows my age:( the folk singer two chord open mike was an obvious joke (how could anyone know off a few sentences what someone is like)
Ps @dhammachick no anger here..its sometimes hard to distinguish someone's mood off the written word, I just like interesting conversations with interesting people is all.
Nice talking to you x> @Kerome said:
Hi ain't to come across as Mr Contrary but "walking on the moon is a love song using metaphors (breaking leg/ breaking heart)
Superstition is about attachment to belief systems
In my opinion, if it's a front, then it's false. And as for encouraging others to drink, that is in itself, a questionable addition to what you do, isn't it...?
No, it was suggested, in question form, that perhaps you were a nihilist rather than Buddhist? Because some of what you said smacked of nihilism. And being called a nihilist isn't an insult anyway. I know three nihilists, and we've had a few on here, too... And if you do put up a front, whether it's false or otherwise, as you'd have it, there is a certain phoneyness to it. A Buddhist doesn't encourage people to act unskilfully.
When was the last time anyone in the industry called you, wrote to you or communicated to you that you had to sing what they told you to sing?
There are many singers who do not toe that line and succumb to commercialism or follow like sheep...Leonard Cohen was one, for starters...
Oh, I don't know. Have you considered trying it? You might get a completely different audience. But you'd still get an audience.
No, you were questioned about your comments. 'Straigh talk does not consist of rudeness, sarcasm and insulting people you don't know.
Yes, I've worked in theatre, and have sung in public. People knew it was an act I put on for the sake of the play, and when I sing, I am who I am. I don't sing about rape, murder, assault, betrayal, hurting people or being callous with other peoples' feelings, because it's not who I am. Just as I don't prescribe to the notion of the 'pleasurable pastimes' of playing war games, or watching horro movoies or gore and violence. Because of what I believe and because of what I feel I stand for. Or won't stand for.
not if it's a betrayal of who you are. You gave examples of activities which go against what many would consider Buddhist morals and ethics. In other words, you admitted to walking the talk, part-time.
See my first comment. And your use of inverted commas is yet another sign of sarcasm. Like "Performer"....
You got them.
You know what they say about kitchen, heat, and not liking it....
Worked in theatre sang in public...right
I totally understand where you are coming from.
Just incase you didn't understand what a front means its what all entertainers do. Rik Parfitt for instance when his infant child died put one on...because its his job...chuck berry I can assure you does not do the duck walk down the coffee aisle in the supermarket.
The rolling stones were mainly university graduates not the gang of vagabonds they portrayed (mick jagger did not really have a cockney accent..it was a front) the list is endless.
So if you have gigged all week and traveled the length and breadth of the country. ..you have the beginnings of a cold..your relationship is in tatters and your P.A Is having intermittent problems.
You find yourself booked into something like the bar in blues brothers
Yes you can be forgiven for putting on "a front"
I totally understand where you are coming from.
That's sarcasm again, isn't it? You just can't stop yourself, can you?
As I expected, you're either not getting it, or you are totally misinterpreting everything.
Rick Parffit 'put on a front' but that's not to say he was being a different person to the one he was. That's called 'professionalism'. You even said, in your post (and I'm quoting directly, just to avoid any confusion or misinterpretation):
Parffit's professionalism is entirely different to your trying to justify one behaviour against another.
Queen's members were also 'University graduates', but why their career as musicians should have been a 'front', is beyond me.
Harrison Ford is a fully-qualified carpenter.
Rowan Atkinson: Electrical engineer (He has a Master's Degree).
Dolph Lundgren (Muscle-bound swedish strong-man) Master's degree in Chemical Engineering.
These are alternative careers. They're not 'putting up a front.'
Again, that's not 'a front'. that's resorting to 'professionalism. But to be honest, under the circumstances you've given, I'd take the week off, frankly, and not put myself through having to perform with a disturbed mental state.
I and my mental health are more important than a full bar, and encouraging those around me to drink.
Hey you put sarcasum were it isn't.
Totally understanding where you are coming from was exactly that.
Meaning there is a world of difference between n amateur and a professional. Especially when it comes to understanding a profession that someone is in.
You ignored the instances I gave or seem to want to find fault.
I was pointing the stones acted like yobos as a front when they patently were not.
There are a thousand instances of fronts
Sir cliff an homosexual singing about boy meets girl (like its from a personal standpoint)
The beatles pill popping teddy boys till brian put them in matching suits
And made them every mothers darlings
What harrison ford has got to do with it is behond me
Rowen atkinson????
Feels like a lot of hate vibrating though this post
Chill out.
Life is generaly a front that's what people seek from the Buddha isn't it
Meaning a path out of it
-I could not agree more with my Spiny friend...
But in a good way. You can make an argument that almost everything is about attachment to something, if you want to view it that way. The question is, is the song helping you realise insight or not? For example, I like Bob Marley a lot for writing songs which encourage you to think.
Only in the amaount of money they earn. There is little difference between being an amateur and a professional, except 'lucky break' and 'money'.
No, I don't believe I did...
It's patently clear that your definition of putting on a front, and mine, are completely at odds.
You do realise that's a libellous comment don't you, and that you could be sued for it, now it's in print?
That's a marketing ploy, not putting on a front. It's moving with trends, and creating them. That's what people in showbiz do... Look at Michael Jackson and his single white glove - a fashion statement everyone copied.
Erm, no. The older generation of the time still hated them. This was definitely a marketing ploy aimed at their teen following...
You're the one who gave the initial example of The Rolling Stones being educated University lads. I merely pointed out that these people were too. But that's not 'putting on a front'. It's handling a secondary profession.
I don't hate. I never have and never will. But it seems to me that you are at odds with what putting on a front means, when you purport to be practising a calling that strips everything away, including the Ego that hides behind a mask.
Not in this camp, not as I've been taught, or understood, no.
I seek what he taught which was to understand dukkha and the transcendence of dukkha.
From what I can gather, you wish to follow Buddhism, but are trying to justify living a lifestyle that goes against that, using the excuse that "it's what's expected of you and you won't survive without the pretence."
You wanted "Thoughts please!" and you got them.
I'm done, and out of this discussion.
Ay Curamba, may Donald and all the Dharma Saints preserve us ...
24/7?
Don't we get time out for bad behavour? We haz to be fanatics?
I want a refund!
Mindfulness, sila at all times (see Sangha for details) is a hard path. Armchair Buddhists take note. The spiritual dharma path was started by a warrior prince, who advocated extreme effort.
I'll join but I may have to start part time and try being less naughty ...
Fat chance....
He was a warrior prince who was given absolutely anything and everything money could buy (greed), then he negated to have anything and everything money could buy (hatred) and then he thought 'maybe moderation is the key'.
Does anyone have hope that the kids of the super-wealthy will give it all up and then decide to become deeply spiritual for the sake of beings?
While the Dhamma exists there is always that possibility.... I have not personally heard of one, although there are many wealthy people who secretly, silently, anonymously do a great deal of charitable work....I guess that's a start....
I think @PJK was hoping more for advice on how to cope with the discord between his profession and his Buddhism but he got advice to make a professional change. I know it would be hard for me to take that leap without knowing I would be able to pay my bills.
The best medicine isn't always objective, often the best means what is digestible.
Yes, I take your point @person. I kinda regret getting into it, (hence my departure) but I think of all the responses @PJK received, those from @karasti were probably the most helpful.
From my own PoV, and without wishing to hammer the point home, I don't think reconciliation is always possible. If there is a discord between what we do, and what we practice, then something has to give, or fall by the wayside. Sometimes, if we need to balance things to the extent that something suffers, we need to re-examine what we're doing, why, and try to redress the balance.
Occasionally, a sacrifice has to be made.
Wisdom consists of making the right choice with regard to what gets sacrificed ...
I thought PJK is a woman?
As for Right Livelihood... I guess when you figure out how to make money with integrity let me know. As far as I can tell, the sliding scale goes from selling your soul* to living without anything. The question is at what point do you realise that you've actually sold your soul?
*if there was such a thing as a soul
No. I think PJK is the man in the middle... the next photo would seem to bear this out...
Actually, I make a living by being of service to the public, and have no incentive to either have to decide between selling my 'soul' or living without anything. I've never done the former, or felt the need to, but have certainly experienced the latter....
ah maybe. Though you can never really tell how much a photo has been manipulated. Or maybe it's just very good hair & makeup for a good theatrical presentation. Or maybe (heaven forbid!) I'm wrong.
Hang on a sec. I never advised a professional change, merely a different POV on seeing his/her Buddhist practise and view of self. That's the problem here, people are going of half cocked and not taking time to understand what's being said. There's a difference between listening and understanding in this thread.
I always mis-translate and mis-speak.
Listening as said is key. I also consider doing any job, still allows one to be a dharma practitioner.
http://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/buddhas-dharma/vajradhara-and-84-mahasiddhas.html
Yes @Tiddlywinks, I am a man (last time I looked) this time around.
I think you problem escalated in my post because of my definition of putting on a front. Which I believe we all do to some extend but more so in the entertainment business. Some more that others.
@dammachick yes you just nailed it
@person....yes correct
Some people got more front than The Blackpool promenade.
Just sayin'....
Sorry you are out (can you not have any fun)
The point about the stones is not that they were educated but pretended to be something else..putting on a front they were uncouth rebels..urinating in public and photographed doing so..jagger ditching his posh accent for a cockney one ... Hiring the hells angels as security ect ect
As for being sued by sir cliff, cliff has now openly admits an intimate relationship with ex catholic priest, named fr mcelynn.
If these instances are not putting on a front I really don't know what is
More like blatant fraud.
Best wishes
He's got some front, that Batchelor Boy....
as for 'having fun', my position determines just how far I should go with exchanges. I may well have exceeded the limit, which is why I pulled out of the argument.
But Fun? Me? Oh, I'm more fun that Suggs's House....
Talking about sarcasm, @PJK, you seem to be pretty fond of the LOL button for comments which are not meant to be funny.
That's pretty sarcastic to me...
Once 'truly' on the path, there's no going back...Nor is there really anything to look forward to...
One can't escape the signs...It's well sign posted...Pointing out the errors of our way
But don't mistake the finger that points to the moon for the moon
I think it's ironic that a thread begun by a Moderator discussing spouting plaitudes and walking the talk, is the one thread that has become particularly prickly... and let me add I'm not excluding myself from that. But as it's "my" thread, I guess I let myself go a little freely in this one....
This is a kind of somewhat relevant, type thing, maybe...
@PJK I am a bit confused, as this is from a response to me, your words, no one else's.
"I was talking really as a person who has to put a front on just to do their job.
Its hard to distinguish sometimes who you actually are..if you understand what I'm saying"
@karasti obviously some didn't understand what I was saying
No, @karasti didn't understand what you were saying. I think she's seeking clarification of what you meant by the comment she quoted.
I think some clarification would be of benefit to us all....
I thought fifteen minutes of fame were long enough....
Ok..l was speaking broadly as @person pointed out, about the dilemmas faced by anybody in this form based realm of putting Buddha practice into your life.
ie I suppose if you were the owner of a for a non-profit organic food collective with money in the family and a home it the cotwolds it would be easier than being a nightclub doorman working the bloodbaths around the city of manchester and living in a tough council estate (you know every time you shut your window you trap somebody's fingers) (I did the latter for a number of years)..to devote yourself to the Darma
(A cop out maybe)The starting blocks are not set even.
Plus we are all dealing with as Eckhart Tolle says our own conditioned mind each with its own regional national and world view.
The answers I recieved are extreemly helpful and thought provoking thank you
As regards my alleged sarcasum
I'm from Bolton, think Peter Kay.
Everyone talks like that in Bolton he is not a total one off. It a humour that although appears abrasive is self deprecating. .."we are all in it together type of thing"
Thanks again sincerely
Good, thanks. I appreciate the clarification.
Living in the UK as I do, and having had more than my fair share of hardships (don't worry, it's not a sob-story, honest, I'm so over it, it's almost like talking about a work of fiction!) I truly appreciate how hard it is to get by, make a living, keep a roof over one's head and live day-to-day on what the Government laughingly calls "A living wage".
[Incidentally, on a recent programme on BBC tv, there was a gentleman discussing his business crashing through circumstances which were no fault of his own, and going from being a 2-car family, enjoying foreign holidays three times a year, sending his kids to private schools and enjoying regular visits to good restaurants, to having to live on benefits, sell all his assets, take his kids out of their schools and basically endure a total and complete reversal of fortunes, he also derided and ridiculed the abysmal benefits system which gives a minimum amount of money, in return for a total deprivation of self-worth and dignity. I empathised completely]
I apologise for the digression, but it makes a point I'd like to put forward.
See, while unemployed and on pretty hard times, I had to report on a regular basis to the JobCentre, showing evidence that I was actively seeking work. At that point I would have done anything to get a job, come off benefits and have the advantage of holding down a regular, paid job.
Hold that thought.
I said, 'anything'.
Well, that's not quite true.
I've always worked in the Food/catering & hospitality industry.
I was directed towards a job working at a fishmonger's, where I would have to occasionally take live creatures and kill them, in order for the fishmonger to complete gutting and filleting.
Turned that down.
I was further sent for a job in a restaurant as cleaner of food, where I'd have to prep the shellfish, shucking and cleaning the shellfish out of their shells.
Turned that down too.
I had to explain to the JobCentre why I had turned those jobs down, and it was clear they weren't too impressed by my rationale, but tbh, I didn't really care.
Doing those jobs would have meant going against my principles and Buddhist ethics.
See, it would have meant being who I wasn't.
I do get what you're saying about environment, neighbourhood and social strata being legitimate factors, but this was Bedford and trust me, in every sense of the word - you don't want to go there.
We have had members here, in the Military, asking how they could reconcile their Buddhist premise, with joining the army, and I guess the short 'n' sweet answer is, "you can't."
For my own part, I could not continue doing a job which compromised my principles and morals, and contradicted my Buddhist tenets. My Dignity, and peace of mind are worth more to me that anything money could buy.
Please don't presume that you are the only one facing these dilemmas.
You're not.
We all have dilemmas to face - you're facing yours in the way you choose.
I think we've simply tried to point out that if what you do, contradicts who you are, or wish you were - then something's got to give, and the choice of what gives, is yours.
It comes down to what you want or value most.
That's all.
^What she said
We all have lines we won't cross, and those we are willing to blur a little. Most of us have things we can change to accommodate our highest priorities. In many places, we think we cannot be who we are, but we can. We just have to be brave enough to do so. In other cases, like the examples @federica gave, there is no ability to do so. And then we make a choice. But a lot of people tend to think of themselves as victims of life rather than players within it.
If you are happy with how things are going and the things you do to support your life, then by all means continue on. If you are starting to question it, or feel your job and you don't fit well together, then you need to look into that a bit more and determine what to do about it. It is the insistence you appeared to have that we HAVE to do this that I disagree with. There is always a choice. Always. And every choice has consequences. It is only a matter of which ones we can live with more. As I've gotten older (I am about to hit 41) the more important the consequences to my true nature have become. The consequences of facing friends, answering to family, fitting into an assigned role, following "the rules" etc have become far less important. But when I was in my 20s, they were more important. But as I tell my young adult son, the more you stray from your true nature, the more work it is later in life to find it again. And you will have to do so. Everyone who gives it up in favor of the false front does.
(Although, bear in mind that @PJK didn't use the term 'false'. Just to be fair. And it was I who replied that if it's a front, to me, that's still 'false'.)