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@Buddhadragon I hadn't considered it that deeply, but you are so right. People feel like they have to be right, and take any disagreement as a rejection of not only the idea, but of themselves as well. We're constantly tripping over our own egos...
2
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Buddhadragon said:
The problem is not two people engaging in an honest exchange of opinions and ideas, if we are able to understand that neither has the absolute truth, and that both speak from different outlooks on the world, walks of life, personal baggage.
Exchange of ideas should enable both people to come out enrichened from such an exchange.
The problem begins when egos wants to be right and impose their personal viewpoint as the only possible way to view things.
In my opinion, we should open our minds to the extent that we can entertain opposing ideas without taking them personally, rather than expect our interlocutor to water down their speech.
You're missing the point.
What people's opinions and viewpoints are, is entirely THEIR problem. How you take what they think, say and do - is yours.
When a person flexes their ego, refuses to back down, and perpetuates an argument because they insist they have a point to make, a view to share and a reply they feel MUST be aired, against better judgement, that doesn't compel anyone to either agree, or put up with it.
Often, people with such entrenched, insistent and strident views eventually find themselves side-lined, ignored and isolated.
But how we digest what people think, say and do, is very much a personal problem, if we cannot learn to rise above such issues and let them lie.
For good.
I trust I make myself abundantly clear, @Buddhadragon.
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Moderator note:
This thread was closed with the OP's understanding.
It has been re-opened by a member request and the OP's approval.
1
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Maybe this is a bit off course but there's an interesting, to me, juxtaposition of approaches to how to handle honesty towards others. On the one hand some people feel that it is better to be sensitive and aware of how our words and actions will fall on others and on the other some people feel we should be each be open and forthright with our own views and feelings and how those words are received is more on the recipient. Both seem to have a basis in Buddhist thought, we should try to be kind and thoughtful towards others and, as Joseph Goldstein has taught, no one makes us feel anyway, we are each responsible for our own emotions and reactions.
In his latest book Yuval Noah Harari has a chapter on immigration where he compares people from imaginary countries of hotlandia and coldlandia. In hotlandia disagreements and feelings are expressed in the moment and hashed out so resentments don't build up and fester. In coldlandia disagreements and feelings are kept to oneself and clashes are avoided so that unintended words aren't spoken in the heat of the moment and things aren't made worse, then in the meantime personal feelings are processed and let go of so relationships can continue. The point is that each way of approach works well among its own adherents but when styles confront one another there can be an abundance of misunderstandings and hurt feelings.
In my work I deal with both assertive and agreeable people. In all my time I can think back on three super assertive people who I've worked for that, to my mind, would make demands and push me around to make me do things without considering my time or costs. A few months before the latest one, I was in a conversation with my very conservative cousin who moves in circles with really assertive people and he gave an offhand piece of advice that really helped me gain some understanding. He said that you just need to stand up or push back, that they won't get upset or mad but generally respect that. So when dealing with this latest customer, she would constantly make demands and add things and place blame on me, so I took my cousin's advice and made my needs and concerns known, she argued but the truth was on my side so she graciously conceded the point. Anyway, what I realized was that these sort of assertive people aren't trying to dominate or push people around for the most part, they just come from the perspective that we all should just speak our mind and work out aloud the proper course.
Maybe an example more people can relate to is deciding where to go to dinner with friends, some people are always like "I don't care, wherever you want to go", while others always seem to pick. To the agreeable person the assertive person may always seem like they just always want things their way, while to the assertive person they just want to know what the agreeable person might want now and again and would be happy to go someplace they would want if only they would speak their mind.
Back to my customers, agreeable people are usually much more pleasant and easier to work for but trying to get a decision on any choice to be made is like pulling teeth, they need options constantly spelled out for them and almost need me to tell them what to do. Assertive customers can be aggravating and a battle at times, but if I need a decision made or something done, it happens right away with little fuss or bother.
Anyway, lots of rambling but I find myself at times in each of these worlds and I'm trying to gain an understanding and appreciation of each. Both for my own peace of mind and to have better relations with each.
Interactions with people are a good acid test for where we stand in our personal path and the conclusion is invariably the same: the circle opens and closes on ourselves.
In any interaction, there is the element that we can control -ourselves- and the element we have no control over -the other.
We may strive to be grown-up enough as to accept divergent viewpoints when we find ourselves at the receiving end of an honest comment, but we cannot expect our interlocutor to react in the same way when it may be us uttering what we consider to be an honest opinion.
We have no control over how our interlocutor will react at our honesty and least of all, if they will even understand what we meant at all.
That is where Right Speech skills may come handy.
More than the compassionate wording, the decision that if what I am about to express is at all necessary and how ready is the other person to receive my honest assessment.
I personally think that it should be us doing the personal work and learning to don Shantideva's shoes rather than expecting the world to carpet itself in leather.
But once again, we can expect so much from ourselves, not from the others.
4
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Its a fairly large topic but what I initially took away was that much conflict isn't about basic needs but about the strategies we use to meet those needs, hotlandians and coldlandians for example. The need each of them have in common is the desire to overcome disagreements and have continued positive relationships, what they differ on are the strategies to accomplish that. They could get bogged down on the differences and turn each other into caricatures or they could look deeper and see each others common humanity and try to find a path forward from there.
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited December 2018
I have a personal example here. I am about to lie to my daughter. My partner forgot to put her name on the invitations for her 5th birthday party which was yesterday. The effect was that only a couple kids turned up. 2 cousins, 2 friends from her old school and a kid from class that didn't even know who's party it was but who's Mom just wanted out of her hair for a couple hours.
Poor Ayla didn't know what happened. I just found out that nobody knew who the party was for and why. My spouse is quite upset with herself and doesn't want to let Ayla know what happened for fear of putting more strain on their relationship. I want her to know so that she doesn't think her friends just didn't want to come to her party.
To save both of their feelings I am taking the hit and telling our daughter that I am the one that forgot to out her name on the invites. I'm Daddy so can likely get away with it.
I wonder if this is one if those things that will bite me in the arse down the road.
4
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13)
Make it up to your daughter by telling her she can invite her friends to a place in the mall for ice cream, sprinklins and general girlie mayhem....
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
When posts like that come up I never know what to emote.
Insightful, awesome and lol just don't give the impression of just gratitude.
It would be awesome to get a "thanks" option there.
Really great thread! Yes I think right speech and right motivations and intentions are linked in with honesty being the best policy. Is it neccessary? Is it kind? Will it be hurtful? Honesty being the the best policy is nuanced and takes in a lot of factors. Of course in general it is best to be honest but sometimes a situation requires silence, or no comment or something else. Great examples by people on this thread. Great to be here.
@Zazen1 said:
Of course in general it is best to be honest but sometimes a situation requires silence, or no comment or something else.
hi, welcome to something else Newbuddhist ?
Previously @federica said:
When a person flexes their ego, refuses to back down, and perpetuates an argument because they insist they have a point to make, a view to share and a reply they feel MUST be aired, against better judgement, that doesn't compel anyone to either agree, or put up with it.
I hear there are people like that.
In a sense we of a dharmic honesty persuasion are not flexing ego or alter-ego if available. As potential boddhisatva we are ideally not interested in our internal or others persistent or temporary persona ... but something else ...
Often, people with such entrenched, insistent and strident views eventually find themselves side-lined, ignored and isolated.
Ah the karmic naughty corner
But how we digest what people think, say and do, is very much a personal problem, if we cannot learn to rise above such issues and let them lie.
For good.
Sometimes we have to let people have their temporary lies.
Baby Jesus compels you.
Buddha saves you. Or is it the other way around ...
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Zazen1 said:
Of course in general it is best to be honest but sometimes a situation requires silence, or no comment or something else.
hi, welcome to something else Newbuddhist ?
Previously @federica said:
When a person flexes their ego, refuses to back down, and perpetuates an argument because they insist they have a point to make, a view to share and a reply they feel MUST be aired, against better judgement, that doesn't compel anyone to either agree, or put up with it.
I hear there are people like that.
In a sense we of a dharmic honesty persuasion are not flexing ego or alter-ego if available. As potential boddhisatva we are ideally not interested in our internal or others persistent or temporary persona ... but something else ...
Often, people with such entrenched, insistent and strident views eventually find themselves side-lined, ignored and isolated.
Ah the karmic naughty corner
But how we digest what people think, say and do, is very much a personal problem, if we cannot learn to rise above such issues and let them lie.
For good.
Sometimes we have to let people have their temporary lies.
Baby Jesus compels you.
Buddha saves you. Or is it the other way around ...
Thank you for the welcome @lobster . Nice to meet you. ☺
Comments
@Buddhadragon I hadn't considered it that deeply, but you are so right. People feel like they have to be right, and take any disagreement as a rejection of not only the idea, but of themselves as well. We're constantly tripping over our own egos...
You're missing the point.
What people's opinions and viewpoints are, is entirely THEIR problem. How you take what they think, say and do - is yours.
When a person flexes their ego, refuses to back down, and perpetuates an argument because they insist they have a point to make, a view to share and a reply they feel MUST be aired, against better judgement, that doesn't compel anyone to either agree, or put up with it.
Often, people with such entrenched, insistent and strident views eventually find themselves side-lined, ignored and isolated.
But how we digest what people think, say and do, is very much a personal problem, if we cannot learn to rise above such issues and let them lie.
For good.
I trust I make myself abundantly clear, @Buddhadragon.
Well...To be quite honest...
Oops.......
Moderator note:
This thread was closed with the OP's understanding.
It has been re-opened by a member request and the OP's approval.
Maybe this is a bit off course but there's an interesting, to me, juxtaposition of approaches to how to handle honesty towards others. On the one hand some people feel that it is better to be sensitive and aware of how our words and actions will fall on others and on the other some people feel we should be each be open and forthright with our own views and feelings and how those words are received is more on the recipient. Both seem to have a basis in Buddhist thought, we should try to be kind and thoughtful towards others and, as Joseph Goldstein has taught, no one makes us feel anyway, we are each responsible for our own emotions and reactions.
In his latest book Yuval Noah Harari has a chapter on immigration where he compares people from imaginary countries of hotlandia and coldlandia. In hotlandia disagreements and feelings are expressed in the moment and hashed out so resentments don't build up and fester. In coldlandia disagreements and feelings are kept to oneself and clashes are avoided so that unintended words aren't spoken in the heat of the moment and things aren't made worse, then in the meantime personal feelings are processed and let go of so relationships can continue. The point is that each way of approach works well among its own adherents but when styles confront one another there can be an abundance of misunderstandings and hurt feelings.
In my work I deal with both assertive and agreeable people. In all my time I can think back on three super assertive people who I've worked for that, to my mind, would make demands and push me around to make me do things without considering my time or costs. A few months before the latest one, I was in a conversation with my very conservative cousin who moves in circles with really assertive people and he gave an offhand piece of advice that really helped me gain some understanding. He said that you just need to stand up or push back, that they won't get upset or mad but generally respect that. So when dealing with this latest customer, she would constantly make demands and add things and place blame on me, so I took my cousin's advice and made my needs and concerns known, she argued but the truth was on my side so she graciously conceded the point. Anyway, what I realized was that these sort of assertive people aren't trying to dominate or push people around for the most part, they just come from the perspective that we all should just speak our mind and work out aloud the proper course.
Maybe an example more people can relate to is deciding where to go to dinner with friends, some people are always like "I don't care, wherever you want to go", while others always seem to pick. To the agreeable person the assertive person may always seem like they just always want things their way, while to the assertive person they just want to know what the agreeable person might want now and again and would be happy to go someplace they would want if only they would speak their mind.
Back to my customers, agreeable people are usually much more pleasant and easier to work for but trying to get a decision on any choice to be made is like pulling teeth, they need options constantly spelled out for them and almost need me to tell them what to do. Assertive customers can be aggravating and a battle at times, but if I need a decision made or something done, it happens right away with little fuss or bother.
Anyway, lots of rambling but I find myself at times in each of these worlds and I'm trying to gain an understanding and appreciation of each. Both for my own peace of mind and to have better relations with each.
Interactions with people are a good acid test for where we stand in our personal path and the conclusion is invariably the same: the circle opens and closes on ourselves.
In any interaction, there is the element that we can control -ourselves- and the element we have no control over -the other.
We may strive to be grown-up enough as to accept divergent viewpoints when we find ourselves at the receiving end of an honest comment, but we cannot expect our interlocutor to react in the same way when it may be us uttering what we consider to be an honest opinion.
We have no control over how our interlocutor will react at our honesty and least of all, if they will even understand what we meant at all.
That is where Right Speech skills may come handy.
More than the compassionate wording, the decision that if what I am about to express is at all necessary and how ready is the other person to receive my honest assessment.
I personally think that it should be us doing the personal work and learning to don Shantideva's shoes rather than expecting the world to carpet itself in leather.
But once again, we can expect so much from ourselves, not from the others.
Dan Harris of 10% Happier just had Oren Jay Sofer on his podcast. Oren is a Buddhist teacher who emphasizes nonviolent communication or NVC.
Its a fairly large topic but what I initially took away was that much conflict isn't about basic needs but about the strategies we use to meet those needs, hotlandians and coldlandians for example. The need each of them have in common is the desire to overcome disagreements and have continued positive relationships, what they differ on are the strategies to accomplish that. They could get bogged down on the differences and turn each other into caricatures or they could look deeper and see each others common humanity and try to find a path forward from there.
I have a personal example here. I am about to lie to my daughter. My partner forgot to put her name on the invitations for her 5th birthday party which was yesterday. The effect was that only a couple kids turned up. 2 cousins, 2 friends from her old school and a kid from class that didn't even know who's party it was but who's Mom just wanted out of her hair for a couple hours.
Poor Ayla didn't know what happened. I just found out that nobody knew who the party was for and why. My spouse is quite upset with herself and doesn't want to let Ayla know what happened for fear of putting more strain on their relationship. I want her to know so that she doesn't think her friends just didn't want to come to her party.
To save both of their feelings I am taking the hit and telling our daughter that I am the one that forgot to out her name on the invites. I'm Daddy so can likely get away with it.
I wonder if this is one if those things that will bite me in the arse down the road.
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13)
Make it up to your daughter by telling her she can invite her friends to a place in the mall for ice cream, sprinklins and general girlie mayhem....
You did good, @David.....
When posts like that come up I never know what to emote.
Insightful, awesome and lol just don't give the impression of just gratitude.
It would be awesome to get a "thanks" option there.
But thanks @Federica
Really great thread! Yes I think right speech and right motivations and intentions are linked in with honesty being the best policy. Is it neccessary? Is it kind? Will it be hurtful? Honesty being the the best policy is nuanced and takes in a lot of factors. Of course in general it is best to be honest but sometimes a situation requires silence, or no comment or something else. Great examples by people on this thread. Great to be here.
hi, welcome to something else Newbuddhist ?
I hear there are people like that.
In a sense we of a dharmic honesty persuasion are not flexing ego or alter-ego if available. As potential boddhisatva we are ideally not interested in our internal or others persistent or temporary persona ... but something else ...
Ah the karmic naughty corner
Sometimes we have to let people have their temporary lies.
Baby Jesus compels you.
Buddha saves you. Or is it the other way around ...
No.
The karmic naughty bin.
Or perhaps the karmic naughty lobster catching cage?
Thank you for the welcome @lobster . Nice to meet you. ☺