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Did Buddha Teach the Tantras and Tantric Sex? And What is this Teaching?
Thao
Veteran
"Esoterism is the idea that some spiritual teachings should be kept secret from the majority and only be revealed to a select few. The Upaniùads, which were composed around the time of the Buddha, were secret teachings only made available to high caste people who pledged total loyalty to the teacher. Even in Tibetan Buddhism or Vajrayana, some teachings are reserved only to those who have been initiated. The idea that the Dhamma should be restricted to or monopolized by an ‘in-group’ was repugnant to the Buddha. He perceived the truths he taught as being understandable to all, relevant to all and applicable to all. On one occasion he said, ‘Three things shine openly, not in secret. What three? The orb of the moon, the orb of the sun and the Dhamma and discipline taught by the Tathàgata’ (Anguttara Nikaya I. 283). He reiterated this same point just before his final passing when he said; ‘I have proclaimed the Dhamma without any idea of a hidden and open teaching. I do not have the closed fist of the teacher who holds anything back’ (Digha Nikaya II. 100).
Ven. S. Dhammika"
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Esoterism
This comment below came from a Dhamma forum:
"It is in DN 16:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html
32. Thus spoke the Venerable Ananda, but the Blessed One answered him, saying: "What more does the community of bhikkhus expect from me, Ananda? I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back. Whosoever may think that it is he who should lead the community of bhikkhus, or that the community depends upon him, it is such a one that would have to give last instructions respecting them. But, Ananda, the Tathagata has no such idea as that it is he who should lead the community of bhikkhus, or that the community depends upon him. So what instructions should he have to give respecting the community of bhikkhus?"
And this from elsewhere:
"Tantrayana was taken to Tibet from India in the 9th Century by Padmasambhava (Guru Rinpoche) and the abbot Santaraksita.
Sahara lived in India in the 10th century and was one of the teachers of Marpa the founder of the Tibetan Kagyu lineage.(Marpa travelled to India several times to get teachings from his main teacher Naropa and from other teachers including Sahara)
Tibetan Buddhists and followers of Vajrayana Buddhism believe there is more than one Buddha. Guru Rinpoche - Padmasambhava - who brought tantra from India to Tibet is considered as another Buddha - a fully enlightened being.
Tibetan Buddhism originates from the Vajrayana Buddhism which was practiced in India a long time after the death of the Buddha and it also contains aspects of the Bonpo shamanistic religion which was practised in Tibet before Buddhism and alongside of it.
The present day Bon religion we see imported in the west has now got aspects of Buddhism mixed in with it. (Just as an aside, I have a book of very old photos taken in Tibet in between 1880 and 1950 and there's a photo of a priest in a Bon temple with dead animals and human heads hanging from the ceiling)
The period of Indian Vajrayana Buddhism has been classified as the fifth or final period of Indian Buddhism. Although the first tantric Buddhist texts appeared in India in the 3rd century and continued to appear until the 12th century, scholars such as Hirakawa Akira believe that the Vajrayana probably came into existence in the 6th or 7th century, while the term Vajrayana first came into evidence in the 8th century."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrayana
But in the book, The Commentary of the Kalachakra Tantra it reads:
"ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE RECEIVED THE KALACAKRA INITIATION ARE PERMITTED TO READ THIS MATERIAL" This book was written by a well known Tibetan teacher that lived in Tibet before coming to Seattle, Washington. In this book he states:
"If the secrets are not kept, one's head and heart will burst." Well, when I got this book and read it I felt like my head and heart would burst. It truly saddened me to see Buddha in this light.
"If one keeps the secrets, this water will turn into nectar, which gives rise to the siddhis or realizations; but if one fails to do so, it shall turn into the molten iron of the hell realm. This indicates the great danger of disclosing tantric secrets to those who are not fit to receive them."
Ven. S. Dhammika"
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Esoterism
This comment below came from a Dhamma forum:
"It is in DN 16:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html
32. Thus spoke the Venerable Ananda, but the Blessed One answered him, saying: "What more does the community of bhikkhus expect from me, Ananda? I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back. Whosoever may think that it is he who should lead the community of bhikkhus, or that the community depends upon him, it is such a one that would have to give last instructions respecting them. But, Ananda, the Tathagata has no such idea as that it is he who should lead the community of bhikkhus, or that the community depends upon him. So what instructions should he have to give respecting the community of bhikkhus?"
And this from elsewhere:
"Tantrayana was taken to Tibet from India in the 9th Century by Padmasambhava (Guru Rinpoche) and the abbot Santaraksita.
Sahara lived in India in the 10th century and was one of the teachers of Marpa the founder of the Tibetan Kagyu lineage.(Marpa travelled to India several times to get teachings from his main teacher Naropa and from other teachers including Sahara)
Tibetan Buddhists and followers of Vajrayana Buddhism believe there is more than one Buddha. Guru Rinpoche - Padmasambhava - who brought tantra from India to Tibet is considered as another Buddha - a fully enlightened being.
Tibetan Buddhism originates from the Vajrayana Buddhism which was practiced in India a long time after the death of the Buddha and it also contains aspects of the Bonpo shamanistic religion which was practised in Tibet before Buddhism and alongside of it.
The present day Bon religion we see imported in the west has now got aspects of Buddhism mixed in with it. (Just as an aside, I have a book of very old photos taken in Tibet in between 1880 and 1950 and there's a photo of a priest in a Bon temple with dead animals and human heads hanging from the ceiling)
The period of Indian Vajrayana Buddhism has been classified as the fifth or final period of Indian Buddhism. Although the first tantric Buddhist texts appeared in India in the 3rd century and continued to appear until the 12th century, scholars such as Hirakawa Akira believe that the Vajrayana probably came into existence in the 6th or 7th century, while the term Vajrayana first came into evidence in the 8th century."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrayana
But in the book, The Commentary of the Kalachakra Tantra it reads:
"ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE RECEIVED THE KALACAKRA INITIATION ARE PERMITTED TO READ THIS MATERIAL" This book was written by a well known Tibetan teacher that lived in Tibet before coming to Seattle, Washington. In this book he states:
"If the secrets are not kept, one's head and heart will burst." Well, when I got this book and read it I felt like my head and heart would burst. It truly saddened me to see Buddha in this light.
"If one keeps the secrets, this water will turn into nectar, which gives rise to the siddhis or realizations; but if one fails to do so, it shall turn into the molten iron of the hell realm. This indicates the great danger of disclosing tantric secrets to those who are not fit to receive them."
0
Comments
"The Buddha states very frequently that the monks should take absolutely no alcohol and should not have any sexual intercourse or relationships with women. In fact, they should not even be alone in the same room with a woman. This is very emphatically and repeatedly stated--it is very strict. This is meant for beings who are still subject to taking lower rebirth as a result of such actions. However, monks who have gone quite far in their practice and have gained very high states of realization in terms of tantra, are allowed by the Buddha to have sexual intercourse with women and to take alcohol. The reason is that at a certain stage of practice, when one is sufficiently advanced, these same activities can further one towards the attainment of full enlightenment."
Do you believe that buddha taught everything he knew? Do you believe that buddhas students may or may not add to the dharma?
Did buddha teach the heart sutra? What is the heart sutra? Why isn't it the same as what I study? Why are my neighbors brown and talk funny? Why is my neighbor a democrat? Why doesn't my neighbor read the bible?
Buddha had SEX! :eek:
I would encourage you to write to a vajrayana teacher and ask them what use alcohol and sex are put to. I don't know that we have any tantric practicing students though I hope they come by. I do not practice tantra. I have tried to give you my teachers view on sex in buddhist practice but you do not respond to that. Instead you continue to quote from the kalachakra text. I suggest that you let go of this fixation on the text or the images will cause you to be reborn as a horny old Tibetan lama :hair:
Perhaps that is a strength of many western religions -- that there is a specific body (for example, the formal Methodist Church), which states who is and who is not a recognized minister.
I am saying that the Buddha didn't teach tantra, and yet the Tibetans teach it.
Good points, Compassionate_Warrior. This book makes this claim though:
"Kalacakra belongs to the class of Highest Yoga Tantra and was originally given by Shakyamuni Buddha to the Dharma King of Shambhala, Suchandra." So easy to make a claim but there is no proof.
And to twist Buddha's teachings so that a lama can have sex, well, what can I say?
In the book he talks about what a consorts qualities have to be:
she must have received the empowerments, she must be abiding in pledges and precepts, and she must have trained herself through tantric practice.
But yet the lamas use 11 year old girls. How can they actually have all these qualities? Especially when Chopel speaks of it this way:
"The “modern” tantric already mentioned, Lama Gedün Chöpel, explicitly warns that children can become injured during the sexual act: “Forcingly doing it with a young girl produces severe pains and wounds her genitalia. ... If it is not the time and if copulating would be dangerous for her, churn about between her thighs, and it [the female seed] will come out” (Chöpel, 1992, p. 135). In addition he recommends feeding a twelve-year-old honey and sweets before ritual sexual intercourse (Chöpel, 1992, p. 177)."
His book is: Chöpel, Gedün, Tibetan Arts of Love, Ithaca 1992
Doesn't this remind you of how some soldiers during war would offer little girls Hershey bars so they would have sex with them? And the Dalai Lama wants us to think that it is all about peace and kindness. http://kalachakranet.org/
Who is Lama Gedun Chopel? Well, he has been referred to as "the mad monk" and "the angry monk". Apparently, he was obsessed with sex. And, didn't his writings get him put in prison?
And by the way, lots of children were given chocolate bars in WWII just because the soldiers were kind.
Thao much like Jesus does not refer to the Bible by name Buddha does not refer to the Pali Canon by name.
Therefore the tantric teachings may have been given to the dharma descendents of Tilopa and so forth by the buddha with an outstretched hand. It is totally wrong to assume that the Pali Canon constitutes all of the teachings of the buddha. That is political rather than logical or spiritual.
Which lamas? You continuously make these allegations and have not given any evidence aside from quoting the kalachakra text. I am very frustrated. If you do not produce anything to back your allegations I will have to complain.
Here's what appears to be a review of the book and a biography of Lama Gedün Chöpel he seems to be a fairly controversial figure. Here's the link:
http://www.snowlionpub.com/chapters/tiarlo.htm
The first paragraph of the review seems to suggest that this book is mostly a sex book with some tantra thrown in.
Gedün Chöpel's Treatise on Passion presents with evocative clarity the sixty-four arts of love mentioned, but not elaborated in equivalent detail, in the world-famous Kama Sutra of India. Thus, this book is particularly useful to persons who wish to enhance the intimacy and impact of sexual play. Equally important is the underlying theme of the book, the compatibility of sexual pleasure with spiritual insight. In Tantric Buddhism the sixty-four arts of love are deliberately used in a process of spiritual development in order to enhance the state of ecstatic orgasm that brings with it manifestation of a more subtle and powerful level of consciousness. Since this consciousness can reveal the nature of reality with tremendous force, it has dynamic import for the spiritual path. Gedün Chöpel makes frequent reference to the spiritual value of sexual pleasure, and thus this book, while presenting copious advice on how to enhance ordinary sex, also indicates a higher type of love practiced in Indo-Tibetan Tantrism.
Thao, you might be interested to know that Shamar Rinpoche, one of the top lamas in the Kagyu hierarchy, has decided "no more tantric teachings" for the West, and has set up a chain of Bodhi Path Centers that teach only basic Buddhism without the tantra, except for the Chenrezig empowerment. He feels the sexual aspect has been abused (though not for the reasons we're discussing here), and he has some letters on his site denouncing Ole Nydahl for setting up a tradition or school that is mostly about sex. see www.shamarpa.org, click onto the "letters" section. I'm impressed that someone, at least, has taken some responsibility for some of the damage that has been done by "teachers" (self-appointed in some cases) distorting or abusing the tradition. Shamar was in his late teens when Kalu Rinpoche and the 16th Karmapa went to the West (on Nydahl's invitation) to teach sexual techniques.
Contents
Preface..............................................................7
Introduction by Jeffrey Hopkins......................................9
1 Gedün Chöpel: Provocative Iconoclast..........................11
2 Sources for the Treatise on Passion...........................33
3 Equality of Women.............................................49
4 Sixty-Four Arts of Love.......................................63
5 Sexual Pleasure and Spiritual Insight.........................95
6 Ethic of Love................................................121
7 Enhancing Female Pleasure....................................135
8 Classificatory Schemes.......................................153
Treatise on Passion by Gedün Chöpel................................165
Editions of the Text...........................................166
Prologue.......................................................167
1 Types of Men and Women.......................................171
2 The Passionate Relationship..................................179
3 Time.........................................................189
4 Essence......................................................195
5 Women of Various Places......................................203
6 Embracing....................................................209
7 Kissing......................................................213
8 Pinching and Scratching......................................217
9 Biting.......................................................221
10 Ways of Pleasure............................................223
11 Playing with the Organ......................................229
12 Moving To and Fro and Pressing..............................233
13 Erotic Noises...............................................243
14 The Deeds of the Man Done by the Woman......................247
15 Methods of Copulation.......................................251
16 Uncertain Acts..............................................255
17 Helpful Techniques..........................................259
18 Conclusion..................................................269
Bibliography.......................................................277
@Thao if the heart of your criticism is based on this book then I think you need to reexamine what the difference between sex for pleasure and the symbolism and even actual sex in tantra is.
From the google search I did to find that review almost all of the negative pages that come up reference that particular passage, so its important to see what it really is.
@person: yes, Chopel's book is a sex manual, but there are odd passages in it that deal with matters that are not pertinent to a sex manual, such as what Thao has quoted (cautioning against injuring a 12-year old, and how to use her body to generate the "female seed" without injuring her). Chopel's father was a tantric master, and Chopel is said to have learned the rituals of which Thao speaks from his father.
Second there is no causal link between Chopel's father and ALL of tibetan buddhism including HHDL who is a dzogchen master.
I find it interesting that some of you do not find it horrifying that a young girl is used and has to be fed sweets to get her to comply. She is basically theirs to do what they want with. She has no say in this at all. And what about the threats of hell if one reveals secrets? Doesn't this bother you?
If they are an exception this the Commentary of the Kalachakra Tanta is wrong too? I think not. It definitely is a manual for those Tibetans to use after initiation. IT was also used by this Tibetan Master in Seattle, WA. He pretty much goes along with what Chopel says, what is also written in the free online book, The Shadow of the Dalai Lama:
The First Empowerment is done though visualization, not using a real consort:
"The point of this empowerment is to ripen the mind of the trainee. First, one imagines offering a girl, between the ages of 12 and 20 to the vajra master...The vase empowerment is actually given when the imagined girl comes back to the trainee who then enjoys her presence though laughing and fondling her breasts. As one touches the girl's breast there arises the 'bliss' which should be experienced as indivisible from emptiness. It is with this experience of indivisible emptiness and bliss that one actually receives the vase empowerment."
The Second Empowerment: (If you ever thought that the word 'bodhicitta' was a spiritual word, here it is semen. Nice, huh?) "One imagines that the secret vajra of the vajra master is places in the mouth of the trainee and one tastes the white bodhicitta of the vajra master. This white bodhicittas goes down to the heart-cakra of the devotee and there arises 'great bliss'. This bliss is expriences with the realization fo emptiness, which is essential...This is called the secret empowerment because the secret substance of the vajra master is experienced."
Buddhas and Buddha students may not add to the dharma. The reason I say this is because we are to follow in Buddha's step-foots, not another Buddha, who may not even have reached enlightenment. This is basically how such strange and degenerative teachings came to Tibet.
Which monks are drinking alcohol and having sex. Those that take the empowerments, and maybe only the higher empowerments. If you want certain names I would not be able to tell you, but if a lama is using the tantric manuals, you can bet that it is being taught to some of his closest disciples, those who would hopefully remain quiet about it. Although I have given you a website to read where a Tibetan teacher is talking about such things. I will give it again:
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=3587&start=120
As the teacher, Nimdrol told me: "Sometimes, when you are an advanced practitioner, there are kinds of conduct you must keep secret until you have mastered stability in your practice. For example, eating meat, drinking wine, etc. these things were very shocking in ancient Buddhist India."
Notice they are shocking in Buddhist India, but certainly not in Buddhist Tibet.
One person asked what the purpose of the drinking was, and he called it a 'conduit.'
Again, we have one of the precepts that Buddha taught, discarded because well, Buddha said it was okay in a higher empowerment? I think not.
Jeffery wrote:
"Therefore the tantric teachings may have been given to the dharma descendents of Tilopa and so forth by the buddha with an outstretched hand. It is totally wrong to assume that the Pali Canon constitutes all of the teachings of the buddha. That is political rather than logical or spiritual."
Buddhist scholars will tell you that Tantra was brought to India in the 8th Century, and not when Buddha was alive. This idea that the Tibetans give is false.
If Chopel went to jail it is because he exposed the Tantras, which are secret.
Jeffery: One of Buddha's closest disciples gave all the teachings of his Master to the members of the First Buddhist Council. That became the Pali Canon.
The lamas that are referred to are the ones that used the Tibetan text in Tibet. I have no names. I only have the book that talks about it. Chopel talks about using young girls, and the Tibetan Master who wrote the Commentary wrote about using them in visualizations. Of course with Chopel, it is not visualization. I think if you read The Shadow of the Dalai Lama and go to their references on this matter, you will see that young girls are used by the lamas. Why the contradiction of a woman needing to be of high standards? I do not know. If I find out I will let you know. I do believe that in Western nations the lamas knew better than to use young girls. I also know that when the Hindus came here from India they used 17 year old women in secret. Even Muktananda used young boys, but more than likely not for ritual sex, just for sex. And I know a woman who took her children out of his ashram due to this fact.
Can you prove that there is no link between Chopel's father and all of Tibetan Buddhism, including HHDL? Does it matter? HHDL used the Kalachakra Tantra and does so to this day. He is giving classes on the so-called peaceful aspects of it, if you can believe that, but that is another subject.
And I hope I have now answered all the questions which vinlyn and Jeffery claim I have let pass by.
While it is true Dakini that the abuse of women in Tibetan teachings really bothers me, just as it does when a Zen Master abuses a woman, it is also that I don't believe that Buddha taught this tantras, that sex is not part of enlightenment, and that you don't need it to reach it as they claim. That you can reach enlightenment through Zen meditation alone or though Theravada, but then I really don't know if there is such a thing as enlightenment anyway, but I do know that there are wonderful teachers out there that do keep the precepts and that teach a pure form of Buddhism that has not be degraded.
Thao this contradicts in the Pali Canon where buddha said that what he had taught was like the leaves in his hand compared to the leaves in the forest.
Where did buddha say that in the Pali Canon? If there cannot be other buddhas then what reason is there to follow buddhas teaching in the first place? Are you worshipping buddha as a god or are you trying to reach enlightenment? Which if the second is true I suggest you spend more time reading the Pali Canon and meditating than reading sex manuals?
Its only one theory that the tantra came from hinduism. The other idea is that there is a dharma lineage all the way to buddha. You are making a great assumption that all of the teachings are in the Pali Canon. Buddha lived 2500 years ago and you cannot assume this. There was a schism in the sangha. Could the Pali Canon have been influenced by politics much like the Christian canon?
I wholeheartedly agree it should be tossed in the fire! Don't think there is any disagreement with me on that point. However I again wish you would say which lamas are using the kalachakra. Thao suppose I accuse you of being responsible for the deaths of 7 million jews. Suppose I say that you were hitlers right hand woman. Wouldn't you like me to have evidence? Or would we assume you are guilty?
I would like to check up on this myself. Could you tell me where you have gotten the information that HHDL is teaching the peaceful aspects of the kalachakra?
Nobody is disputing that tantric sex exists. Am I correct in saying that the sex with the 11 year old girl is a visualization? Or is it actual sex?
I don't know what YOU are doing either Thao. You could be having some kinky fetishes and I would not know. :hair:
Thao however tititilating this may be for you to read this.... I don't care what they do as long as it is concentual between adults. They could eat dog shit as a tantric ritual and that would be none of your business provided they are concentual adults.
Thao I would recommend that all of us stick to what we DO know. None of us personally knows if enlightenment is possible. Buddha could have spoke total bullshit and the only way to know would be to enact his teachings and see for yourself if you reach enlightenment. This includes tantric teachings.
It is none of your business if someone practices tantra. You do your thing and they will do theirs. You are a big girl and you cannot control how other people practice the dharma. You are not the judge of what buddhism is and isn't.
if you will read the Dharma Wheel link it tells you what lineages use tantric sex, but you seem to refuse to do just that.
The Dalai Lama is giving lectures on part of the Kalachakra, which lectures are deceiving.
Does not the teacher that you wrote about in the student teacher dialogue on tantra teach the higher empowerments?
I gave other links to teachers that teach the empowernments. You want names, but you have to go to the links I provided.
What I meant to say is that Buddhist scholars know that Tantra was brought from India to Tibet in the 8th Century.
You cannot take a teaching of Buddha on celibacy and not being alone with a woman and then twist it to later say that a highly realized lama can have sex and drink intoxicants, which is what the Tibetan lamas have done.
If you want to say that there are other Buddhas, which I am sure they are, then fine. If these other Buddhas taught Tantric sex with meditation, then fine. But to say that the Buddha of the Pali Canon taught Tantra, then that is not fine. To make claims that he did as the Tibetans have is not only false but disgraceful.
Do you think the Kalachakra Tantra text that is used by the Dalai Lama is not to be used as it is stated in it? The lamas that use the tantric texts are the ones that use sex and meditation when they teach the higher empowerments. That is very obvious.
You are on a witch hunt. Not a serious fair enquiry.
Umm but you have not established that they give the same empowerment as in the kalachakra text....
Thao you do realize that lamas are not monks? And they are not bound by an outside canon, the vinaya. They have their own rules for monks.
I object to Buddha being seen in this light, and I think it should be exposed. Women have no idea what they are getting into when they take the empowerments, why? Because they can't even read them until they take them. They get close to a lama, trust the lama, and wham bam thank you mam.
I think their are many cases of abuse in Tibetan Buddhism with threatening women with death and hell if they tell anyone what is happening, which is what happened to June Campbell and others. I think that Dakini has some information on this.
You can all practice what you want, but I still think it needs to be exposed for what it is. What I do know is that women and children have suffered greatly at the hands of lamas. That is what I am sticking with. It has destroyed lives, broken up sanghas, etc.