The path - to walk or run?
Earthninja
WandererWest Australia Veteran
Ok I'm going to put something to you guys as I'm assuming most of you are house holders like myself?
I've been discovering over the past few months more and more that this path is very much an introverted journey.
The recent course I attended said that minimum of two hours a day meditation.
All the enlightened teachers I have learned from have monastic backgrounds, starting at a young age. Or have had a spontaneously arisen wake up like eckhart Tolle.
I'm trying to meditate 2 hours a day but I fear this is not enough? SN Goenka said it's really hard for a house holder to awake. Monks/ Nuns dedicate their whole lives to waking up and takes them decades if lucky.
Of course I am generalising and I'm sure there may be exceptions. But... That being said, since discovering this path I'm falling head first into it and want to see it to its end.
I have a great house holder life however. How do you guys feel?
All the books and teachers in the world can't help you. They can point the way but some serious meditation time is from the way I've understood. The vastly only way to wake up?
Am I missing something? Is there another way? I've read monks can invest up to 30000 hours of meditation on the path. How can we do this in a life time?
Comments
Do not put all your eggs into one basket.
All you get if you trip up is a damn omelette.
Well first off I doubt that the experience that Eckhart Tolle describes has more than a passing resemblance to the fruits of Dhamma.
But that aside, In fact there are many many householders who practice at least two hours a day..it has to worked up to of course.
It would not be sensible to wake up tomorrow and decide to jog 10 miles day.
In the same way two hours meditation can be a realistic goal over the course of a year .
First of all you should ask yourself: where am I headed? Or better yet, where do I want to go? Why am I on this path?
If you don't intend to take up a monastic life, half an hour meditation every day should be okay. If it feels like striving, it defeats the whole purpose of the practice.
You say that you feel Buddhism seems to you an introverted path. It isn't.
Mark Epstein says:
"Meditation is not world denying; the slowing down that it requires is in service of closer examination of the day-to-day mind."
You observe your thoughts, you live a mindful life, you develop insight, in order to function more ably in your everyday reality not to cut yourself from it.
A personal path it is. Don't look aside to measure your own progress but inside.
Are you happier now than you were at the outset? Can you see the quality of your choices yielding better results in your life? Can you relate better to the people that make up your environment?
These are the kind of questions you should ask yourself.
So, no, don't run. Sit back. Relax. Enjoy the trip.
Perhaps neither run nor walk...
Just keep paddling and trust the current.
What about those stories of Buddha, bricks, zen and dishes?
If the intent is to hurry the process up, it may take even longer.
I've come to the conclusion that for me, the process itself is the destination. All I can do is be the best darn part of that process as I can.
GO FOR IT... you only live once. We can do more than we think we can.
@Earthninja
Buddhas/teachers/monks & lay folks have only ever been able to practice in the one present evolving moment before them.
Attend well enough to your own present moment and all comparisons to anybody elses practice will dissipate.
I think it is the quality of your meditation that counts, not how long or how often. For example: ten minutes a day of focused/absorbed meditation is better than an hour a day of distracted meditation. But then it takes time to improve.
@Earthninja. It is certainly possibly for a householder to achieve 2 hrs of daily meditation. But thinking in terms of a minimum requirement can make practice difficult. So please don't take the advice of even those with experience as absolute.
Maybe Eckhart Tolle was a stream winner 7 lifetimes ago, or became a once returner 1 lifetime ago.
Not to get all sectarian or anything, but I think this concept that monasticism and hardcore amounts of seated meditation is the best/only way to become enlightened/gain insight/whatever is more prevalent in the Theravadan tradition.
Yeah, Mahayana has stories about Bodhidharma sitting in a cave for years, but the main Mahayana schools (Pure land, Zen/Chan) emphasize the everyday more than Theravadan stuff I've read. The Ten Oxherding Pictures is a Zen thing, after all!
I think it may just be a different phrasing though - Pure Land teachers say that good deeds and chanting help create a Pure Land/help you gain a rebirth in the Pure Land; Zen teachings tell us that every moment is our practice, so each moment off the zafu should be as valuable a teacher as the time we spend sitting on a zafu; Theravadans speak of sīla (morality) that keeps us on the right path on our every day life.
Meditation is great, but don't mistake it as the primary path. It's how we live off the cushion that becomes more important for spiritual learning than the spiritual laboratory that we set up when we sit at home or on retreat.
Yes! By 'hurrying the process' we are craving! And we all know where that gets us. This really hit home with me, and I am so glad you put it into words. I too get into 'am I doing enough/often enough/good enough?'
As for two hours of meditation per day (as an example) that could either be practically impossible with the demands of a householder's life OR an invitation to extend the mindfulness of meditation from the cushion to the kitchen, work place, freeway commute, diaper pail, cow milking, conference calls . . .
Meditation shouldn't be 'watered down' by being overly relative, there's nothing that beats an hour or two of stillness. But I am under the impression that this is PRACTICE, the cultivation of a mindfulness that is not confined to the cushion. It begins there -- 'begins' being the operant word
.
I see what you guys mean, don't get me wrong. I try be mindful as often as I notice. I use triggers as well which helps. I'm not out to leave my external world but I'm trying to be practical.
As far as craving a desired result, maybe but not the end of suffering. I'm trying to understand who I am. I find 2 hours a day of uninterrupted stillness helps.
As I said, can anybody name someone who is/was enlightened through less than an hour of meditation?
As for zen practice, they sit. Sitting zazen is their highest practice according to shunryu suzuki. Everything is zen practice but they sit. They get up at ungodly hours to get to the dojo to sit. As suzuki puts it.
Whether we want to sit or not, it doesn't matter we sit. It is an expression of our true nature.
I personally find that my mind is scattered after a day at work. By meditating twice a day, at least my second sitting my mind is still.
I'm not doing this as a chore, in Therevada they call it Adittana , sitting with determination. It's a discipline.
I do appreciate the feedback guys, I'm just trying to practice properly. I enjoy it but I want to have right practice. I'm modelling off my inspirations. They all seem to have hours of meditation in common.
With metta chris
Even those who have sat for years in caves, will come back and tell you "sure, there is something to it. But all that meditation means nothing if you cannot, and do no, apply it to every day life."
What is proper depends on you and your life. I don't practice sitting meditation for 2 hours. But I practice as much as possible, while I am walking the dog, interacting with my kids, breathing in traffic, doing yoga, gardening, dealing with people I don't like very much, and so on. It's a life practice, not just a meditation practice. Meditation has to become your life in that way. It doesn't have to mean spending most of your life sitting in formal meditation. I personally think that a person who lives a truly good and honest life is doing better than someone who sits home frustrated and upset because they are not living up to their set goal of meditation for x hours, or whatever. I think that sometimes, meditation can end up being wasted life as much as tv can, if you are unable bring it into life with you.
@karasti for me the meditation transfers directly into my daily life without trying to do anything? I'm just become aware faster. I still garden, wash dishes etc concentrating on the present.
I personally find 2 hours a day is doable. One hour is taken from sleep as I don't need it as much now.
I'm not saying go live in a cave but that being said those are the people that seem to reach the end goal.
I'm just trying to find a healthy medium. I don't get upset or frustrated if I miss a sitting, that's the practice right?
Anybody here meditate for two hours or more a day? Just curious?
I meditate for 30 minutes every day for 2.5 years. I usually do more but I stop counting up the time.
Always.
Always inclusive rather than technique based. Meditation is good, however it is no substitute for following the complete way.
I will give you a real experience as an example. Sadly (because it is not ideal) it will be me. What you know as enlightenment or waking up, occurred for me a long time ago. It is why I could state with such certainty I would wake up at a given time. It is also why I can state with certainty that this year I am asleep . . . that should give the irrelevant part food for contention . . .
These awakening terms are real being and experiences but are nothing to gain or lose. They are our Buddha Nature moment to moment.
What is the complete way? That depends. It may include meditation but in essence it has to include a complete readying . . . in other words we have to fill all the requirements. We have to have spare capacity. We have to work mindfully, study, be kind. Go on retreat. Seek good company. Follow the eight fold path or similar. Look for wisdom and insight in all things. We can do it through studying people and nature and Shinobi movement. We can attain but what if we do not? I say to you so what? Work towards the possibility that we are on the path as indeed we all are with every mindful step . . .
The path has a requirement of service or compassion, not a guarantee of personal attainment. Imagine if through personal traits, for example in my case anger and other unwholesome qualities, we were unsuitable for enlightenment. We could not fulfil the requirements of transformation. What would we do? Would we still try to live a good and wholesome life and try and be of service to good people and/or sangha? We might say yes but what in us needs to change to enable and empower this?
We are a work in progress. Always will be. Buddhahood is often an impossible, otherworldly or future life idealisation or a flaws and all being Bodhi potential. If we always latch on to the irrelevant for example somone else's attainment or lack, minor doctrinal anomalies, my practice is longer than your nose, my daddy is bigger than your lama etc what happens? Live life as if the world depends on it being possible to change. Start the ripple of transformation whilst asleep.
Your mother probably told you the complete way many years ago. 'Be good.'
Anyone can be good, even me . . . :wave: .
http://archive.today/K6T6Y
@lobster thanks for the brilliant post. How can you be unsuitable for enlightenment? Aren't we all there/here anyway?
I guess it may come across that I'm latching to some teachers attainment etc but that attainment is not an a+ sort of attainment. It's the undying compassion for all things, the humility, the sense of humour and serenity these people seem to carry. I really don't care what realisations they have had but it's obvious they have had some realisations.
We try and emulate Buddha don't we? Kindness for everything?
I feel like I'm a prisoner to myself/ego. I can spot it causing problems all the time.
I can however appreciate transferring the mat into the "real" world. Continuation of practice is the key for me too guys!
I just feel like I've had good karma come my way and put me on this path. I don't want to take it for granted. For the first time in my life I've stopped seeking outside of myself.
But the seeking continues...
Maybe you guys have different aspirations to me? I want to know who I am. From an all inclusive experiential level. I already know why I suffer. It's because of my ego.
To get rid of these I turn to whoever has found these things out. They all meditate heavily.
I'm talking Ajaan Chah, Sri ramana Maharishi, shunryu suzuki, Yutadhammo bhikku just to name a few. All different buddhist/Hindu traditions.
Sorry for the novels guys!
For starts.
"To put it bluntly, the central question Buddhists have faced from the beginning it this: Is awakening close by or far away? Is it readily accessible or only available through supreme effort? If it's proximity and ease of access are emphasized, there is the danger of trivializing it, of not according it the value and significance it deserves. Yet if its distance and difficulty of access are emphasized, there is the danger of placing it out of reach, of turning it into an icon of perfection to be worshipped from afar.
Doesn't the question itself deceive us? Aren't we tricked by it's either/or logic into assuming that only one option can be true? Couldn't the ambiguous logic of both/and be more appropriate here? Awakening is indeed close by-and supreme effort is required to realize it. Awakening is indeed far away-and readily accessible." Stephen Batchelor. Buddhism Without Beliefs
"Awakening was not a remote goal to be attained in a future lifetime. No: awakening was right here, unfolding in your own mind at his very moment." Stephen Batchelor.Buddishm Without Beliefs
So, I think one can experience enlightenment on the cushion or on the pot. And, I trust it's not something we just reach once and we've got "it." I'm assuming we may have a moment of enlightenment, either after hours on the cushion or minutes on the pot. Or the other way around, really.
Then Glass you need to define what you mean by ' enlightenment ' ?
Does one need to define the mean mean to be on a mean middle way?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mean
Those who are asleep and those awake know what enlightenment defines.
:wave: .
Humour me ? I know ( theoretically ) what is meant in Buddhism by ' enlightenment.'
I am puzzled by a reference to 'moments of enlightenment ' and wonder whether it refers to the same thing ?
2 hours a day is impressive and I think it's enough to make progress - so stick with it.
@Glass great name! I actually have that book.
@mettanando Buddhism has so many traditions. Besides the fact the sutras are written in Pali and Sanskrit, People have their own definitions! All the translations are inadequate.
For example I've heard if enlightenment as awakening, realising the void, merging with emptiness. The deathless, undying, unmanifested. Realising the big mind. Complete desolation of the ego. The mind turning inwards. Stating/realising/experiencing nibbana nirvana satori.
I'm sure their are many and will argue over this. Haha. In reality id say words can not ever describe something that is beyond mind and matter.
Try explain to a blind person what the colour White is? That's somebody giving a definition of enlightenment! Haha
@SpinyNorman I'm told after a year it gets easier. Thanks. It can only help I guess!
I think it refers to the same thing although the "moments" don't last very long and are just glimpses of the awakened world.
It could also imply stages like gradual awakening instead of sudden.
Thank you.
Just out of interest Earthninja, in your OP you mention Goenka, was the retreat you were on Goenka based ? The school of U Ba Khin ?
Huineng, the 6th Chan patriarch. Although, most everyone agrees he was an extraordinary example.
@mettanando , not sure what school. But yes Goenka was the teacher .
Never heard of him, I know of chan dynasty. I'll look him up thanks!
You're learning that every waking moment
@seeker242 is talking about Chan Buddhism, the Chinese version of Zen (Zen = Japanese pronunciation of Chan, Chan = Chinese pronunciation of dhyana)
@Earthninja: I can tell from your posts that you are on a "meditation high."
It's plain obvious you came back from your retreat highly motivated and that the experience has been very positive to you.
But, slow down a bit and don't mistake the path for the goal. The path is most often the goal.
Where do you want to get and why so fast?
You say you want to know yourself. You are getting to know yourself.
But most importantly, savour yourself. Approach the self-knowledge experiment with patience, curiosity and calm, as you would when savouring the new flavour in an exotic dish.
Nyanaponika Thera said about the Buddhist path that "it can be followed by one's own efforts," but that it offers "a gradual training, gradual practice, gradual progress."
Don't strive or you'll take away all the joy in the practice. The practice is not just on the cushion, your whole life is the practice.
So wind down one speed, take a breath, empty your head a bit of so many received ideas and enjoy, really enjoy. Don't let all the voices whispering from the teachings make static to your own internal voice.
Take some time to stop and take stock.
Edit: I found this interesting quotation by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu about the path and the fruit (goal):
"...the path is not something strictly separate from the fruit, rather the process of self-liberation becomes ever deeper until the deluded consciousness that was unaware of the base which was always our own nature disappears: this is what is called the fruit."
@dharmamom thanks for the post, it is great advice. I'd say for anybody that's great advice.
I guess I'm coming on a little full on.
The thing is it's not just the retreat, that put me on a "meditation high" this all started about 6 or 7 months ago for me.
Before the retreat I would meditate for an hour a day and spend up to 3 hours a day reading up about Buddhism and spirituality in general. I don't watch tv shows anymore I don't see the point.
I can't seem to slow down? My whole life I've felt something was not quiet right.
I know I have found it. I really enjoy what I'm doing.
I will definitely endeavour to slow down, I guess the meditation on death doesn't help this though haha!
Thank you again for your wise words, I can see I'm coming on a bit strong.
...I can see I'm coming on a bit strong.
Not at all, you're motivated and have a strong momentum with practice, and that's nothing but good.
So don't let anyone here bring you down or undermine your enthusiasm.
Neither too strong or too weak.
Middle Way means moving the goal posts . . . in effect, whatever the extreme or laxity . . . you are always in the middle.
. . . well that is my plan . . .
:wave: .
How come?
I don't wish to encourage imbalance or anything, but this video I saw recently gave some insight on how to do longer meditation. I don't know if I will ever be able to do it, but it inspired me; https://youtube.com/watch?v=gYSSf71Vo7w
Math:
30,000 hours of sitting practice in an 80 year lifetime equates to about 1/24th of your life.
Which means one hour of meditation a day.
Say you might get hit by a bus at 40, 2 hours seems reasonable to hedge your bets.
And meditation don't just mean on yo butt. As many friends above have mentioned.
I have a book recommendation, I'll message it to you.
@sova true! But that's assuming your meditating at age of one. Not sure how early people get onto this path!
I could get hit by a bus tomorrow
or in 5 minutes!
I do realise meditation is not just cushion. I just feel that you gain much more from meditating with little distractions.
Thanks heaps
When ever your really concentrating on something your doing with no distractions, & without entertaining any other "unrelated" thoughts, because your re-applying your concentration back to what ever your doing at the time, that is all time your meditating folks..So what ever you already do just concentrate more, & you can be in full time meditation..Think of all the hours you "do stuff" which if you did mindfully, are all hours of meditation to silence the mind..Also any time you feel any unwanted emotions coming on, mindfully distract them if their caused by your thinking..If you think it's someone causing it, use "them" for your own emotions & feelings control practice which again is meditation..Do that over a good few months until you realise it, & you will awaken..It was a lot of effort for me to become aware of myself, & now i find the work has only just begun..But it's great because for the first time in my life I'm building something real, & not just something made up from my past & the collective ego mind led masses.
:clap: .
. . . and now the laundry . . .
http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/06/you-cant-script-enlightenment-moving-beyond-magical-thinking
@Daveadams that is a great practice. I am improving in this however slowly!
You couldn't do Samatha this way though! Unless you were washing the same dish for an hour
Washing the dishes is really a mindfulness practice. IMO it's a bit confusing to talk about it as "meditation".
But isn't meditation also really a mindfulness practice?
Yes, it can be.
Meditation, mindfulness, being in the moment..... it's all practice. That, I find, is the key word. Practice. Right Everything. Damn that's hard....keeping all those Dhamma plates spinning.....
About monasteries this topic reminded me a person I knew who according to what I was told start felting a great need to pray so she went to a monastery to take vows. This of course not in the Buddhist context. Nevertheless things didn't went right and the person left the monastery and I'm not entering in details but her life took a twist for the worse.
While great commitment to a practice like meditation strikes me as a wonderful thing, to go to a monastery should imply other reasons than simply meditation I imagine.
I should say so.
That's the conclusion i came to federica it's all practice, & I'll be honest it took me a few months to just wrap my head around how to train properly..I see it like this if your doing more than one thing at once (multi tasking) then it's impossible to find the present moment, because you can't find two present moments at the same time by definition of present moment..So that means we can't eat in front of the T.V, or with music playing..We can't drive with music playing, & certainly no music whilst showering..I know it sounds very simple to do, & i reckon that's why it's staring us in the face like they say it is..The present moment is always there & we have to concentrate to see it, & their none mind moments so we can't have anything in our minds at the time..Trees & nature look more defined to me now then they ever did, & some days it "really" surprises me when i see a "tree"!lol.