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Memorial Day

genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
edited May 2015 in General Banter
«1

Comments

  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    I can be so literal ...

    I thought for just a moment 'combat vets' were veterinarians who gave treatments to aggressive animals ... :3

    ZenniZenshinWalker
  • rocalarocala Explorer

    I am sure this post was mean't to be nice, but it none the less annoys me. "Memorial Day" first I have heard about it? This is the WORLD WIDE WEB. "Our combat vets"? Who's the human races?

    Regards
    An ex serviceman

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    Well, "An ex serviceman", that's a confusing post (at least to me).

  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    does it mean women stop having babies? O.o

    WalkerZenni
  • KennethKenneth Veteran
    edited May 2015

    Pete Seeger- Sanga Music Inc -BMI

    Where have all the flowers gone, long time passing?
    Where have all the flowers gone, long time ago?
    Where have all the flowers gone?
    Young girls have picked them everyone.
    Oh, when will they ever learn?
    Oh, when will they ever learn?

    Where have all the young girls gone, long time passing?
    Where have all the young girls gone, long time ago?
    Where have all the young girls gone?
    Gone for husbands everyone.
    Oh, when will they ever learn?
    Oh, when will they ever learn?

    Where have all the husbands gone, long time passing?
    Where have all the husbands gone, long time ago?
    Where have all the husbands gone?
    Gone for soldiers everyone
    Oh, when will they ever learn?
    Oh, when will they ever learn?

    Where have all the soldiers gone, long time passing?
    Where have all the soldiers gone, long time ago?
    Where have all the soldiers gone?
    Gone to graveyards, everyone.
    Oh, when will they ever learn?
    Oh, when will they ever learn?

    Where have all the graveyards gone, long time passing?
    Where have all the graveyards gone, long time ago?
    Where have all the graveyards gone?
    Gone to flowers, everyone.
    Oh, when will they ever learn?
    Oh, when will they ever learn?

    Where have all the flowers gone, long time passing?
    Where have all the flowers gone, long time ago?
    Where have all the flowers gone?
    Young girls have picked them everyone.
    Oh, when will they ever learn?
    Oh, when will they ever learn?

    http://www.lyricsfreak.com/p/peter+paul+mary/where+have+all+the+flowers+gone_20107752.html

    WalkerZenni
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    @rocala my apologies but I don't understand at all what you were saying?

  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited May 2015

    @rocala said:
    I am sure this post was mean't to be nice, but it none the less annoys me. "Memorial Day" first I have heard about it? This is the WORLD WIDE WEB. "Our combat vets"? Who's the human races?

    Regards
    An ex serviceman

    I thought Genkaku's posting was a straight forward wish for everyone to have a less adversarial relationship with every one else.
    That the best way to truly honor any Combat vets was to work towards making a world that no longer required their skills sets.

    KennethlobsterZenni
  • WalkerWalker Veteran Veteran

    That's about all we can do @Cinorjer . I don't understand how people have let themselves be deluded by their leaders throughout history.

    I mean, really, think about it: if someone said to you, "Here, take this gun, and stand at the end of this field. There will be other people at the other end of the field and they're going to try to kill you. You kill them first, OK?" What would you think?

    Just boggles my mind. :(

    CinorjerZenni
  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    Perfectly stated, @Jason.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    Every day is memorial day, it's nothing special....

  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    No words, @!genkaku. <3

  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran

    Every day is memorial day, it's nothing special...

    @shoshin -- Since you seem to enjoy the company of those proclaimed as "wise," you might take note of the the alleged fact than not even Gautama forsook the human race ... but rather wept at the vision of a violent future.

    I know, I know ... tears are nothing special....

    Theswingisyellow
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited May 2015

    @genkaku said:
    I know, I know ... tears are nothing special....

    People( men women and children) are dying violent deaths everyday, I'm reminded of this everyday... Hence why memorial day is nothing special....

    Cinorjer
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    One of the things I recognise is my fascination with violence, aggression and the technology of violent warfare.

    Fortunately not to the point of criminal involvement. I consider warfare criminal. I am deeply fortunate to have choice.

    I feel dharma and meditation does help our physical, hormonal monkey behavour. I try to be more than an automata with these urges. As others have mentioned we should remember our fellow sentients caught up in war madness. We hopefully try to be better than our inclinations.

    <3

    WalkerrobotZenni
  • KennethKenneth Veteran

    @Bunks said:
    We have Anzac Day here in Australia and New Zealand that represents a similar thing as Memorial day in the USA.

    A time to reflect on the madness of war and the hope that one day it may all end.

    We, in whose name they were sent, do need to remember the dead. But I wish we in the US could also incorporate Bunks' definition of Anzac day to our national understanding of Memorial day. Many do as individuals, but as a culture, not so much.

    silverVastmindZenni
  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    @Kenneth said:
    We, in whose name they were sent, do need to remember the dead. But I wish we in the US could also incorporate Bunks' definition of Anzac day to our national understanding of Memorial day. Many do as individuals, but as a culture, not so much.

    That would be great...and I think it's coming...it's time has come, but 'We the Sheeple' - I mean We the People make it so - or not.

  • KennethKenneth Veteran

    Very true. It will never come from the political establishment or the media.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    @Shoshin said:
    People( men women and children) are dying violent deaths everyday, I'm reminded of this everyday... Hence why memorial day is nothing special....

    And I think we can reserve a day or two a year for those whose sacrifices insured our religious freedom.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited May 2015

    @vinlyn said:
    And I think we can reserve a day or two a year for those whose sacrifices insured our religious freedom.

    Nobody is stopping you @vinlyn ....
    When it comes to these 'special' days I'm just reminded of this...

    After the Great War, came "Lest We Forget!" After the Second World War, came "Never Again !"

    When it comes to the horrors of wars...we humans have such short memories...

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    @Kenneth said:
    We, in whose name they were sent, do need to remember the dead. But I wish we in the US could also incorporate Bunks' definition of Anzac day to our national understanding of Memorial day. Many do as individuals, but as a culture, not so much.

    I appreciate what you say @Kenneth but unfortunately the definition I gave is just my individual take on it.

    Most Australians just see it as a time to remember Australians and not all the people from other countries that have died too.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    I think we probably all acknowledge that. But is that only the soldier's fault. Or is it also the politicians fault. And the fault of those who elected those politicians.

    But this is about the individual men, many of whom were drafted, who left their families and friends, and many who never came back. Certainly, some were dishonorable men who did dishonorable deeds during the war. Others were noble and did a duty than many of us benefit from every day.

    Several days lately I have meditated about the people, reportedly including small children, in Syria and Iraq who are being slaughtered by ISIS.

    There are 365 days in a year when we can honor various people who suffer and die.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited May 2015

    @vinlyn said:
    I think we probably all acknowledge that. But is that only the soldier's fault. Or is it also the politicians fault. And the fault of those who elected those politicians.

    I'm not singling out a specific group to hold responsible...

    But this is about the individual men, many of whom were drafted, who left their families and friends, and many who never came back. Certainly, some were dishonorable men who did dishonorable deeds during the war. Others were noble and did a duty than many of us benefit from every day.

    My heart goes out to anybody who has lost a loved one

    Several days lately I have meditated about the people, reportedly including small children, in Syria and Iraq who are being slaughtered by ISIS.

    Everyday things like this cross my mind

    There are 365 days in a year when we can honor various people who suffer and die.

    True and that's precisely what I'm doing... Nothing special....

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn15/sn15.003.than.html

  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran

    I am not trying to offend anyone but for me days like these seem to only reaffirm nationalism and glorify what is in my opinion one of mans worst acts, war.
    Maybe we are monkeys who can only resolve our difference in this fashion, I just hate how easy it is for us to engage in it. For every generation my country has produced (US) it has fought in some sort of conflict or war. I believe war and why we fight is generally a sham sold to young men and country, when real reasons revolve around power, influence, or economics. I think of the many innocents that have perished and how I help fund that.
    @karasti :"At this point, our wars are mostly fought in our own economic and political interests and have little to do with our freedoms now, despite what the military advertising sells."-I very much agree with your POV.

    WalkerlobsterCinorjer
  • WalkerWalker Veteran Veteran

    If you don't stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them.

    I cringe every time I see this slogan on t-shirts or bumper stickers. It seems to be a back-handed criticism of people who don't support war. It's not so much the troops I disagree with, it's the powers that be that start and maintain conflict. The troops for the most part are either in the armed forces out of financial necessity, or have been duped by their societies and governments.

    VastmindTheswingisyellowlobster
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    Freedom is not free.

  • WalkerWalker Veteran Veteran

    Freedom could be free, for everyone. The terrorists and militants fighting for the ISIS leadership in the middle east, have been duped, just as the troops on the other side fighting them.

    The idea that we have to fight for freedom is ludicrous. Violence only begets more violence. As @Jason said above, it's the lower and middle classes that get killed, maimed and psychologically damaged by war, while the oligarchs sit back and count their money. What if the little people on both sides said "forget it", dropped their guns, and walked away.

    Call me an idealist, but that's the only way that we will ever stop war.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    When that "what if" happens, let me know.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited May 2015

    @vinlyn said:
    Freedom is not free.

    Do you mean that it comes at a price ? Or freedom does not mean that one is free ?

    Theswingisyellow
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    I'm not going to go through a whole list of wars that are just or unjust. Needless to say, there are wars that were necessary (WWII is an example), and wars that were unnecessary (Vietnam being the perfect example since it was simply a proxy war that had little to do with Vietnam or Southeast Asia).

    Your figure of 1.4 million American military deaths since the Korean War is so far off the mark -- according to Wikipedia -- as to make that argument a moot point.

    In my view, a case can be made that we are most threatened in our freedoms when we lean more toward isolationism.

    Ironically, the last truly war-mongering president that we had was probably JFK. But, we so loved the Camelot mystique that we overlook his statement that America should "bear any burden and pay any price" to spread freedom throughout the world.

    But this really isn't the point. The point of Memorial Day is to honor those who have served for us in the military. Not the elected leaders. And, frankly, not the hawks in the Pentagon. It's about the everyday soldiers who were sons and daughters, fathers and mothers, and friends. Some went in the military voluntarily, but others were conscripted. They gave years and lives. They are what Memorial Day is about.

    Back in the 1980s, when I was living in Virginia, I did a lot of visitations to Civil War battlefields and sites. Somewhere down in the Fredericksburg region, I visited a Union Civil War cemetery; I've forgotten which one. And I was walking around the cemetery, I noticed the other cemetery across the road -- the Confederate cemetery. And there, even though it was more than 100 years after the Civil War, was a family placing flowers on a Confederate soldier's grave. They looked very solemn. I found it very moving because there were people honoring an ancestor's life. Some man who had raised a family and then was called to war. A man whose life resulted in the lives of those people placing those flowers on his grave. A father, a grandfather, a great grandfather, and probably a great great grandfather. It didn't matter that he was a Confederate. Or a soldier. It just mattered that he was a man who deserved some respect as a human being. Who deserved not to be forgotten.

    Memorial Day wasn't designed to memorialize war. It was designed to memorialize men and women who sacrificed something that few of the people on this forum have been asked to sacrifice. It's unfortunate that the freeloader's of democracy can't see the forest (the sacrifice of everyday people) for the trees (the unfortunate wars).

  • Telly03Telly03 Veteran
    edited May 2015

    For me, Memorial Day is not about debating which wars were won, or should have, or have not, been supported, but to remember those who died believing they were fighting for their country.

    It's to honor those who signed up, to not debate, but to put their life on the line when their country calls. The military life is not for everyone, and respect to those who choose otherwise, but Memorial Day is for those who decided it was their calling, and gave their life.

    Please allow those who choose to remember and honor these men and women have their day, without debate, without criticism... I know you yourself will be respected for doing so.

    vinlyn
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    @vinlyn you are right, my apologies about my incorrect #. I actually had added them up, and then mistakenly took the figure from total deaths of war from the wiki page. Sorry about that.

    I'm not saying we shouldn't honor people who have died. But, and I mean no disrespect, I think the idea that we should appreciate that they died for our freedoms is a bit misguided because since WWII, most of them have died not for our or others' freedoms, but for something else entirely. That was not their fault, they lost their lives, and their loves ones lost out on their presence out of a false ideal that the government sells to mostly lower class people. They joined with an intention of upholding and fighting for our freedoms. Except that isn't what our military does anymore. They were lied to, and so were their families. I find that disgraceful. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate what they gave up. I just find it incredibly sad that they gave it up unnecessarily.

    Like I said, I don't think the days of recognition should go away. I just prefer to do it my own way every day rather than on one day and then forget about it for the other 364 days, like happens so often. But I also hope that one day, things will change. And that people will stop making a decision to be soldiers because they have an idea they are fighting for our freedoms because the government lies to them and tells them that is what they are doing.

    VastmindTheswingisyellowWalkerDavid
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    That seems like a balanced viewpoint to me.

    lobster
  • Telly03Telly03 Veteran

    valid points @karasti , governments lie, because they are run by people, and it is human nature to be controlling and greedy.

    Perhaps Memorial Day, or the day after, is not the best day to voice the opinion that families had lost loved ones to a lie, lives lost in vain... that may come across as dishonoring their service instead of an honorable wish to stop wars.

    vinlyn
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    Is there a good day to bring it up? Maybe during the week of 4th of July, or Thanksgiving, or Veteran's Day or Christmas or around the anniversary of 9/11 or Pearl Harbor. Our history is full of reminders of the horrors of war, I don't think there is a good day.
    I know, and have known, plenty of service members. Growing up, and now having my own children, every single one of them, even if they are proud of their service and did not experience traumatic events like some have, have told my children never to join the military. My uncle was a career-long Marine, he taught classes at Camp Pendleton. My all of my grandparents and great grandparents served or otherwise supported WWII. 2 other uncles were in the Navy. My Father-in-law was a Marine. My best friend's husband is current Army. Several classmates spent time in the military. Not a single one of them recommends joining the service. They are quite adamant about it. Wonder why that is. Everyone around them praises them for their service, and their response is generally, "It wasn't worth it." The demons of war haunt them forever. The only exceptions have been the few I have met who served in WWII. Sometimes, despite the carnage, it is necessary and worth the sacrifice.

  • Telly03Telly03 Veteran

    What is your intention in bringing it up? to show compassion? to educate? to debate? to poke those who do not think like you with a virtual stick?

    vinlyn
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    edited May 2015

    Good, thoughtful posts above. Thanks everybody.

    I guess I prefer to make a distinction between those whose bodies and minds were savaged and those who may stand up on holidays and utter the word "hero" or other lauds to mark their passing or sacrifice.

    Every time I hear one of these speeches, I get the sense that the speaker is doing what he can to link himself or herself to the 'heroism' and thus bring credibility to him- or her-self ... and perhaps a political campaign. Too often, these are the same people who feel no outward remorse that it was they who nourished the circumstances that maimed and killed the ones now-lauded as "heroes." In my book, this is disgusting.

    What hero has ever thought of himself or herself that way ... assuming they're still alive and think anything? In the moment of action, there was action. There was no flag, no God bless my country, no mom and apple pie. Just action ... and an action that some (perhaps equally or more worthy) did not survive. It is corrupt and disgusting when some lapel-pin patriot links himself or herself to an action s/he was not a part of as if speaking words could make something true ... and make him/herself more worthy for uttering them. The fact that since time immemorial, the elderly have shaped the circumstances in which the young -- for whatever reason -- participate and bleed and sacrifice ... well shame on 'maturity.'

    Death is death and sorrow is sorrow. The death of someone near and dear is searing and deserves a memory, whether on a holiday or not. But let us not collaborate with those whose mouths are full of self-serving lies as they steer a course towards the next cataclysm.

    I am sorry for the men and women who died.
    I am sorry for the men and women whose souls were seared.
    I am sorry for my participation -- from whatever distance -- in what I claim to hate.

    I...am...sorry.

    TheswingisyellowWalkersilverlobster
  • Telly03Telly03 Veteran

    @genkaku Does this hate continue to build for you? Every time you hear "Hero" on Memorial Day, does it grow? Those people are not attacking you, they just don't think like you... it's OK, it is not anything new, it is the way many people are.

  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran

    @Telly03 said:
    valid points karasti , governments lie, because they are run by people, and it is human nature to be controlling and greedy.

    Perhaps Memorial Day, or the day after, is not the best day to voice the opinion that families had lost loved ones to a lie, lives lost in vain... that may come across as dishonoring their service instead of an honorable wish to stop wars.

    What's more dishonorable causing people to die for lies or pointing out the fact?

    howWalker
  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran

    @genkaku; very well put.

  • Telly03Telly03 Veteran
    edited May 2015

    I believe, and I understand that you may disagree, that disrupting an event to honor the memory of a fallen loved one, for the sake of trying to prove your view is the more correct, is probably more dishonorable

    People are able to decide for themselves what are lies, you can decide for yourself... no need to be pushy

    I believe Christianity is a lie, but Christmas Day is probably not the best time to call out the Christians, if there is a good time.

  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran

    Does this hate continue to build for you? Every time you hear "Hero" on Memorial Day, does it grow?

    @telly03 -- No, the sorrow and barf level remains about the same.

    silver
  • Telly03Telly03 Veteran
    edited May 2015

    @genkaku said:
    telly03 -- No, the sorrow and barf level remains about the same.

    Good luck with that. I'm making progress, believe it or not, with not getting upset, or achieving a "barf level" with opposing views... years ago I would have, and have, gone ultra defensive and allowed myself to get upset... I'm now more able to sigh and think "ah people, we really are flawed", and not have negative feelings towards other people on a different path. Humans in general are flawed, obviously because of wars and such, but who is authorized to label an individual as more flawed? It's not my fault we view things differently, and not my responsibility to "fix" them. It would be arrogant to think I was always right, and how would I know when I was wrong? Learning about them, sharing when appropriate, is much less stressful and more rewarding than trying to fix them.

    lobster
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran

    I'm making progress, believe it or not, with not getting upset

    And I'm making progress getting upset .... :)

    silverlobster
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    I most certainly do not poke people to upset them or any other such thing. I also would never interrupt an event to hurt someone. I bring it up here(on a discussion board...where I assume it was brought up to share and consider different views) to share what I think and how I feel about it. Not to point a finger to anyone who thinks differently and say they are wrong. I'm not saying my view is right. It is just what I have been thinking as of late. I had similar thoughts along a different vein on Mother's Day a couple of weeks ago.

    It is just a general overview of war and military and it's necessity and what is used to sell people on it. It has nothing to do with the hundreds of thousands of individuals who are killed or wounded as a result of those things. Considering all those who have died (and like I said, my grandpa died as a result of his service to his country, too, just not in combat. He died a horrible, suffering death in 1984 over many months and was never recognized until just this past year) the day we are thinking about them all seems like a time to discuss why they died, and if we can do anything to prevent similar deaths in the future. Obviously, we don't have control over that much on an individual level. It is just something to think about and consider. I most certainly don't think there is a right or wrong view on it.

    Telly03
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