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Memorial Day
genkaku
Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
Comments
I can be so literal ...
I thought for just a moment 'combat vets' were veterinarians who gave treatments to aggressive animals ...
I am sure this post was mean't to be nice, but it none the less annoys me. "Memorial Day" first I have heard about it? This is the WORLD WIDE WEB. "Our combat vets"? Who's the human races?
Regards
An ex serviceman
Well, "An ex serviceman", that's a confusing post (at least to me).
does it mean women stop having babies?
Pete Seeger- Sanga Music Inc -BMI
Where have all the flowers gone, long time passing?
Where have all the flowers gone, long time ago?
Where have all the flowers gone?
Young girls have picked them everyone.
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Where have all the young girls gone, long time passing?
Where have all the young girls gone, long time ago?
Where have all the young girls gone?
Gone for husbands everyone.
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Where have all the husbands gone, long time passing?
Where have all the husbands gone, long time ago?
Where have all the husbands gone?
Gone for soldiers everyone
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Where have all the soldiers gone, long time passing?
Where have all the soldiers gone, long time ago?
Where have all the soldiers gone?
Gone to graveyards, everyone.
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Where have all the graveyards gone, long time passing?
Where have all the graveyards gone, long time ago?
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Gone to flowers, everyone.
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Where have all the flowers gone, long time passing?
Where have all the flowers gone, long time ago?
Where have all the flowers gone?
Young girls have picked them everyone.
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Oh, when will they ever learn?
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/p/peter+paul+mary/where+have+all+the+flowers+gone_20107752.html
@rocala my apologies but I don't understand at all what you were saying?
We have Anzac Day here in Australia and New Zealand that represents a similar thing as Memorial day in the USA.
A time to reflect on the madness of war and the hope that one day it may all end.
Back in 1987 or thereabouts I was an engineer in the Air Force and assigned to the Pentagon. I wouldn't be working in the halls of power, but rather crawling around in the ceiling. I was in charge of the unit that installed the first internet network in the place. This was back when President Reagan reigned and the cold war was in full swing. I'd been practicing Buddhism for probably five years or so, ever since I'd been stationed in Korea.
Anyway, I'd already spent many years in the military although thankfully never on a battlefield. I was single (actually divorced some years before) so assigned to housing in Ft Myers, an Army outpost next to Arlington Cemetery (our huge national cemetery for our veterans and those killed in war, for members not familiar).
In fact, the cemetery was right outside my dorm window and across a small parking lot. The first day I arrived, I hopped over the low stone wall and strolled out between the perfectly ranked and identical white stone markers.
I walked and I walked and I walked and they never ended. Graves as far as I could see, and they never ended. Thousands upon thousands of men and women surrounded me and I knew just as many had been laid to rest in fields across Europe or marked only by sunken ships. So many. And to this I had to add all the other lives from both sides of every war we fought. Now multiply that by all the battles fought throughout known history, with arrows and spears and swords and clubs.
All I could think was, such a waste of human potential. What wonders all those fallen warriors could have built instead. Certainly I honor my brothers and sisters in arms. I just wish humanity didn't consider the insanity of war to be business as usual.
I believe looking back this was when I knew that I couldn't re-enlist and continue. I'm not a pacifist - I just couldn't be a part of this anymore. I agree we need to defend ourselves against the predators of the world, and there are innocents that need defending. The world's leaders are never going to put down their weapons and join hands in a big songfest, not when those people over there have something you want.
If there's another way of settling differences between people who grow to hate each other or leaders looking for more power, I don't know what it would be. Maybe this is the way it has to be. Maybe we'll never be anything but tribes of monkeys flinging rocks at each other. That's beyond me. All I can do is make sure my life serves as an example that people don't have to hate.
I thought Genkaku's posting was a straight forward wish for everyone to have a less adversarial relationship with every one else.
That the best way to truly honor any Combat vets was to work towards making a world that no longer required their skills sets.
That's about all we can do @Cinorjer . I don't understand how people have let themselves be deluded by their leaders throughout history.
I mean, really, think about it: if someone said to you, "Here, take this gun, and stand at the end of this field. There will be other people at the other end of the field and they're going to try to kill you. You kill them first, OK?" What would you think?
Just boggles my mind.
Word. My contribution via FB today:
To remember and reflect upon tragic events and those who have died as a result is a humane and worthwhile thing, in my opinion. Wars are themselves supremely tragic events that take the lives of countless living beings, both soldiers and civilians alike; and it's worth remembering all those who have lost their lives in the global carnage that we, as a species, are capable of unleashing upon ourselves.
But when it comes to the subject of war, I think we should always be on guard so that we don't allow ourselves become so blinded by patriotism and the idealization of war heroes that we fall into the trap of blindly supporting militarism and nationalism, or attacking anyone who happens to have a different point of view. As WWII veteran and political activist Howard Zinn once said:
For me, today isn't just about honouring the dead; it's also about remembering the toll that war takes on its survivours and the heavy burdens that many bear from their time spent in and around war, physical and mental scars that take lifetimes to heal, if at all—victims of political-economic systems in which the ruling class declares the wars that the working class and poor must fight. As Eugene Debs famously said in his 1918 Canton, Ohio, speech:
War is hell, and many of those who are lucky enough to come out on the other side of it are changed forever. And it both saddens and angers me that the one's who fight our wars are caught in the tangled web of geopolitics and the machinations of plutocrats who treat human lives more like commodities in their lust for wealth and power than people while the victims on the other side are denigrated, or else completely forgotten.
Perfectly stated, @Jason.
Nice @cinorjer. I too was in the service, army, and was lucky enough never to have killed anyone in a personalized way. A pencil-pushing spy working for the National Security Agency before Edward Snowden blew the whistle.
But not five minutes ago, I received an email forwarded by the exec editor of the local paper. It contained an oleaginous wish from the Massachusetts governor that all of us would take time out, every day, to remember those who "paid the ultimate price" and entered the lexicon of "heroes."
This sort of political horseshit sets my hair on fire. Have none of these oozing idiots ever talked with a combat veteran? I mean personally. Some, of course, have been able to get past the experience and look back thinking it was the right thing to do.
Others, at least in my country, are purely ravaged by the memories that leap on them when least expected and haunt their dreams with a past that wakes them in a pool of right-here-right-now sweat... wishing, in some small part of their minds that they were dead and could be free of the horrors.
I'm sorry, but the looks on a flesh-and-blood veteran's face when he tries to make peace with a war he fought ... well, it enrages me to the point of incoherence. The sorrow drops off the edge of the universe ... this is a profound and no-fucking-around blasphemy -- creating the circumstances in which, once again, the young are put forward by the elderly as a means of assuring some golden gain ... more power, more money and, as a sop to the wimps in the crowd, more peace.
Nor am I a pacifist. I would defend my family and, if it is demonstrably under attack, my country. But playing fast an loose with excuses for war ... it makes me want to join Islamic State and learn the four-star art of removing human appendages.
Sorry for the rant....
Pass me my binkie.
Every day is memorial day, it's nothing special....
No words, @!genkaku.
@shoshin -- Since you seem to enjoy the company of those proclaimed as "wise," you might take note of the the alleged fact than not even Gautama forsook the human race ... but rather wept at the vision of a violent future.
I know, I know ... tears are nothing special....
People( men women and children) are dying violent deaths everyday, I'm reminded of this everyday... Hence why memorial day is nothing special....
One of the things I recognise is my fascination with violence, aggression and the technology of violent warfare.
Fortunately not to the point of criminal involvement. I consider warfare criminal. I am deeply fortunate to have choice.
I feel dharma and meditation does help our physical, hormonal monkey behavour. I try to be more than an automata with these urges. As others have mentioned we should remember our fellow sentients caught up in war madness. We hopefully try to be better than our inclinations.
We, in whose name they were sent, do need to remember the dead. But I wish we in the US could also incorporate Bunks' definition of Anzac day to our national understanding of Memorial day. Many do as individuals, but as a culture, not so much.
That would be great...and I think it's coming...it's time has come, but 'We the Sheeple' - I mean We the People make it so - or not.
Very true. It will never come from the political establishment or the media.
And I think we can reserve a day or two a year for those whose sacrifices insured our religious freedom.
Nobody is stopping you @vinlyn ....
When it comes to these 'special' days I'm just reminded of this...
After the Great War, came "Lest We Forget!" After the Second World War, came "Never Again !"
When it comes to the horrors of wars...we humans have such short memories...
I appreciate what you say @Kenneth but unfortunately the definition I gave is just my individual take on it.
Most Australians just see it as a time to remember Australians and not all the people from other countries that have died too.
I think we probably all acknowledge that. But is that only the soldier's fault. Or is it also the politicians fault. And the fault of those who elected those politicians.
But this is about the individual men, many of whom were drafted, who left their families and friends, and many who never came back. Certainly, some were dishonorable men who did dishonorable deeds during the war. Others were noble and did a duty than many of us benefit from every day.
Several days lately I have meditated about the people, reportedly including small children, in Syria and Iraq who are being slaughtered by ISIS.
There are 365 days in a year when we can honor various people who suffer and die.
I'm not singling out a specific group to hold responsible...
My heart goes out to anybody who has lost a loved one
Everyday things like this cross my mind
True and that's precisely what I'm doing... Nothing special....
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn15/sn15.003.than.html
I increasingly shy away from recognizing any one person or group of people on any particular day and try to incorporate my appreciation and recognition more every day. I'm not saying my preference means we shouldn't stop having those days. If people only think to give thought to these issues one day a year, then at least it is better than no days a year.
I've never known anyone lost in war directly. But I know that soldiers returning with depression, PTSD, nightmares, anxiety and everything else are often lost to their families and loved ones just the same. I've seen families torn apart by the results of war perhaps even more often if their loved one returns than if they do not. My grandpa died a horrible death as a result of a particular cancer caused by radiation after being forced to witness nuclear tests at Bikini Atol and dive on subs affected by radiation while he was in the Navy.
I appreciate their sacrifices, but I think in our time today, we go a little overboard in our extension of them protecting all our freedoms. We fought for our freedom in that way in the early days of the US but we own our freedoms now and I think the idea that we have to go over to Iraq and elsewhere and fight against those people for our own freedom is misplaced. At this point, our wars are mostly fought in our own economic and political interests and have little to do with our freedoms now, despite what the military advertising sells.
I am not trying to offend anyone but for me days like these seem to only reaffirm nationalism and glorify what is in my opinion one of mans worst acts, war.
Maybe we are monkeys who can only resolve our difference in this fashion, I just hate how easy it is for us to engage in it. For every generation my country has produced (US) it has fought in some sort of conflict or war. I believe war and why we fight is generally a sham sold to young men and country, when real reasons revolve around power, influence, or economics. I think of the many innocents that have perished and how I help fund that.
@karasti :"At this point, our wars are mostly fought in our own economic and political interests and have little to do with our freedoms now, despite what the military advertising sells."-I very much agree with your POV.
If you don't stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
I cringe every time I see this slogan on t-shirts or bumper stickers. It seems to be a back-handed criticism of people who don't support war. It's not so much the troops I disagree with, it's the powers that be that start and maintain conflict. The troops for the most part are either in the armed forces out of financial necessity, or have been duped by their societies and governments.
Freedom is not free.
Freedom could be free, for everyone. The terrorists and militants fighting for the ISIS leadership in the middle east, have been duped, just as the troops on the other side fighting them.
The idea that we have to fight for freedom is ludicrous. Violence only begets more violence. As @Jason said above, it's the lower and middle classes that get killed, maimed and psychologically damaged by war, while the oligarchs sit back and count their money. What if the little people on both sides said "forget it", dropped their guns, and walked away.
Call me an idealist, but that's the only way that we will ever stop war.
When that "what if" happens, let me know.
Do you mean that it comes at a price ? Or freedom does not mean that one is free ?
@vinlyn Of the wars we have had since, say WWII, which ones do you view as a true threat to religious and other freedoms in the US? Which conflicts did we involve ourselves in that was truly for the best of a group of people versus oil or other resource/political interests?
Freedom might not be free. But I don't know that I believe people have to give their lives day after day, century after century in order to pay for it. I think it's already been paid for, and that we are at a point we can simply maintain it with a military that isn't so "Team America" as our is. 1.4 million US military members have died (approximately, according to wikipedia) since the Korean war. For what? Then add in the millions of other people who died as a result. And the effects on those who survived but were never the same. Which of our freedoms did we save in fighting those wars?
Sure, some good (if you can call it that) came of it. Saddam Hussein isn't gassing his people anymore. And we aren't afraid of Bin Laden anymore. But now we're afraid of ISIS/ISIL who are likely a direct result caused, in part, by our previous involvements over there. Is the world safer now that we rid if of Saddam and Osama? Doesn't seem so. And despite their rhetoric over how much they hate Americans, they aren't any real threat of affecting our freedoms on a country-wide level. If anything, we affect our freedoms more than anything by being afraid of them.
I'm not going to go through a whole list of wars that are just or unjust. Needless to say, there are wars that were necessary (WWII is an example), and wars that were unnecessary (Vietnam being the perfect example since it was simply a proxy war that had little to do with Vietnam or Southeast Asia).
Your figure of 1.4 million American military deaths since the Korean War is so far off the mark -- according to Wikipedia -- as to make that argument a moot point.
In my view, a case can be made that we are most threatened in our freedoms when we lean more toward isolationism.
Ironically, the last truly war-mongering president that we had was probably JFK. But, we so loved the Camelot mystique that we overlook his statement that America should "bear any burden and pay any price" to spread freedom throughout the world.
But this really isn't the point. The point of Memorial Day is to honor those who have served for us in the military. Not the elected leaders. And, frankly, not the hawks in the Pentagon. It's about the everyday soldiers who were sons and daughters, fathers and mothers, and friends. Some went in the military voluntarily, but others were conscripted. They gave years and lives. They are what Memorial Day is about.
Back in the 1980s, when I was living in Virginia, I did a lot of visitations to Civil War battlefields and sites. Somewhere down in the Fredericksburg region, I visited a Union Civil War cemetery; I've forgotten which one. And I was walking around the cemetery, I noticed the other cemetery across the road -- the Confederate cemetery. And there, even though it was more than 100 years after the Civil War, was a family placing flowers on a Confederate soldier's grave. They looked very solemn. I found it very moving because there were people honoring an ancestor's life. Some man who had raised a family and then was called to war. A man whose life resulted in the lives of those people placing those flowers on his grave. A father, a grandfather, a great grandfather, and probably a great great grandfather. It didn't matter that he was a Confederate. Or a soldier. It just mattered that he was a man who deserved some respect as a human being. Who deserved not to be forgotten.
Memorial Day wasn't designed to memorialize war. It was designed to memorialize men and women who sacrificed something that few of the people on this forum have been asked to sacrifice. It's unfortunate that the freeloader's of democracy can't see the forest (the sacrifice of everyday people) for the trees (the unfortunate wars).
For me, Memorial Day is not about debating which wars were won, or should have, or have not, been supported, but to remember those who died believing they were fighting for their country.
It's to honor those who signed up, to not debate, but to put their life on the line when their country calls. The military life is not for everyone, and respect to those who choose otherwise, but Memorial Day is for those who decided it was their calling, and gave their life.
Please allow those who choose to remember and honor these men and women have their day, without debate, without criticism... I know you yourself will be respected for doing so.
@vinlyn you are right, my apologies about my incorrect #. I actually had added them up, and then mistakenly took the figure from total deaths of war from the wiki page. Sorry about that.
I'm not saying we shouldn't honor people who have died. But, and I mean no disrespect, I think the idea that we should appreciate that they died for our freedoms is a bit misguided because since WWII, most of them have died not for our or others' freedoms, but for something else entirely. That was not their fault, they lost their lives, and their loves ones lost out on their presence out of a false ideal that the government sells to mostly lower class people. They joined with an intention of upholding and fighting for our freedoms. Except that isn't what our military does anymore. They were lied to, and so were their families. I find that disgraceful. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate what they gave up. I just find it incredibly sad that they gave it up unnecessarily.
Like I said, I don't think the days of recognition should go away. I just prefer to do it my own way every day rather than on one day and then forget about it for the other 364 days, like happens so often. But I also hope that one day, things will change. And that people will stop making a decision to be soldiers because they have an idea they are fighting for our freedoms because the government lies to them and tells them that is what they are doing.
That seems like a balanced viewpoint to me.
valid points @karasti , governments lie, because they are run by people, and it is human nature to be controlling and greedy.
Perhaps Memorial Day, or the day after, is not the best day to voice the opinion that families had lost loved ones to a lie, lives lost in vain... that may come across as dishonoring their service instead of an honorable wish to stop wars.
Is there a good day to bring it up? Maybe during the week of 4th of July, or Thanksgiving, or Veteran's Day or Christmas or around the anniversary of 9/11 or Pearl Harbor. Our history is full of reminders of the horrors of war, I don't think there is a good day.
I know, and have known, plenty of service members. Growing up, and now having my own children, every single one of them, even if they are proud of their service and did not experience traumatic events like some have, have told my children never to join the military. My uncle was a career-long Marine, he taught classes at Camp Pendleton. My all of my grandparents and great grandparents served or otherwise supported WWII. 2 other uncles were in the Navy. My Father-in-law was a Marine. My best friend's husband is current Army. Several classmates spent time in the military. Not a single one of them recommends joining the service. They are quite adamant about it. Wonder why that is. Everyone around them praises them for their service, and their response is generally, "It wasn't worth it." The demons of war haunt them forever. The only exceptions have been the few I have met who served in WWII. Sometimes, despite the carnage, it is necessary and worth the sacrifice.
What is your intention in bringing it up? to show compassion? to educate? to debate? to poke those who do not think like you with a virtual stick?
Good, thoughtful posts above. Thanks everybody.
I guess I prefer to make a distinction between those whose bodies and minds were savaged and those who may stand up on holidays and utter the word "hero" or other lauds to mark their passing or sacrifice.
Every time I hear one of these speeches, I get the sense that the speaker is doing what he can to link himself or herself to the 'heroism' and thus bring credibility to him- or her-self ... and perhaps a political campaign. Too often, these are the same people who feel no outward remorse that it was they who nourished the circumstances that maimed and killed the ones now-lauded as "heroes." In my book, this is disgusting.
What hero has ever thought of himself or herself that way ... assuming they're still alive and think anything? In the moment of action, there was action. There was no flag, no God bless my country, no mom and apple pie. Just action ... and an action that some (perhaps equally or more worthy) did not survive. It is corrupt and disgusting when some lapel-pin patriot links himself or herself to an action s/he was not a part of as if speaking words could make something true ... and make him/herself more worthy for uttering them. The fact that since time immemorial, the elderly have shaped the circumstances in which the young -- for whatever reason -- participate and bleed and sacrifice ... well shame on 'maturity.'
Death is death and sorrow is sorrow. The death of someone near and dear is searing and deserves a memory, whether on a holiday or not. But let us not collaborate with those whose mouths are full of self-serving lies as they steer a course towards the next cataclysm.
I am sorry for the men and women who died.
I am sorry for the men and women whose souls were seared.
I am sorry for my participation -- from whatever distance -- in what I claim to hate.
I...am...sorry.
@genkaku Does this hate continue to build for you? Every time you hear "Hero" on Memorial Day, does it grow? Those people are not attacking you, they just don't think like you... it's OK, it is not anything new, it is the way many people are.
What's more dishonorable causing people to die for lies or pointing out the fact?
@genkaku; very well put.
I believe, and I understand that you may disagree, that disrupting an event to honor the memory of a fallen loved one, for the sake of trying to prove your view is the more correct, is probably more dishonorable
People are able to decide for themselves what are lies, you can decide for yourself... no need to be pushy
I believe Christianity is a lie, but Christmas Day is probably not the best time to call out the Christians, if there is a good time.
@telly03 -- No, the sorrow and barf level remains about the same.
Good luck with that. I'm making progress, believe it or not, with not getting upset, or achieving a "barf level" with opposing views... years ago I would have, and have, gone ultra defensive and allowed myself to get upset... I'm now more able to sigh and think "ah people, we really are flawed", and not have negative feelings towards other people on a different path. Humans in general are flawed, obviously because of wars and such, but who is authorized to label an individual as more flawed? It's not my fault we view things differently, and not my responsibility to "fix" them. It would be arrogant to think I was always right, and how would I know when I was wrong? Learning about them, sharing when appropriate, is much less stressful and more rewarding than trying to fix them.
And I'm making progress getting upset ....
I most certainly do not poke people to upset them or any other such thing. I also would never interrupt an event to hurt someone. I bring it up here(on a discussion board...where I assume it was brought up to share and consider different views) to share what I think and how I feel about it. Not to point a finger to anyone who thinks differently and say they are wrong. I'm not saying my view is right. It is just what I have been thinking as of late. I had similar thoughts along a different vein on Mother's Day a couple of weeks ago.
It is just a general overview of war and military and it's necessity and what is used to sell people on it. It has nothing to do with the hundreds of thousands of individuals who are killed or wounded as a result of those things. Considering all those who have died (and like I said, my grandpa died as a result of his service to his country, too, just not in combat. He died a horrible, suffering death in 1984 over many months and was never recognized until just this past year) the day we are thinking about them all seems like a time to discuss why they died, and if we can do anything to prevent similar deaths in the future. Obviously, we don't have control over that much on an individual level. It is just something to think about and consider. I most certainly don't think there is a right or wrong view on it.