Where does a spiritual journey end
Jeroen
Luminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlands Veteran
I asked a friend today, what is the end of your spiritual journey? She said, to continue to transform and ascend until you are a planet or a star. 🧐 I tried hard (and succeeded) in not laughing.
But there are some interesting thoughts connected to this. New religious movements will find different carrots to dangle in front of potential followers, and always there is this trade off where the priests of the new movement will encourage you to think of a potential reward in the future in return for favours in the here and now.
Often these things are made to seem very unbalanced, such as everlasting bliss in heaven in return for a brief baptism and a few short prayers here on Earth. But what causes you to believe that such things are possible, where is the root of this idea in our experience of this world? Often when you examine things in this way, you find it is an idea that has been handed to you by other people.
So my friend, I knew she was into some off-the-beaten-track alternative ideas, involving a rather ditzy American online spiritual teacher, but I didn’t know she was this much of a new-age person... it was funny.
Comments
I like the Pure Land practice. All we need to do is sincerely chant Namo Amituofo 10 times and we’ll be reborn in the Pure Land where enlightenment is guaranteed 🙏🙏🙏
... and more importantly, where does it begin?
One well known Buddha refused to answer that question since he said this question did not actually pertain to suffering's cessation.
but...
Is there a Buddhist meditation that does not illuminate that spiritual beginnings and their endings, have only this one fleeting moment to ever share?
Practically speaking, I don't think it ever really does. Maybe if we devoted our whole life to practice, and maybe life after life there would be an end.
I think the mindset the majority of people would do well to adopt would be to compare your journey from how you were yesterday rather than compare your journey to an idealized, perhaps impossible, future.
It ends the end of this breath?
I came across this website, spiritual teachers.org which is run by a man named Shawn Nevins. On it he provides a listing of spiritual teachers of his experience... the man has over the years become an aficionado of spiritual teachers. I wouldn’t want that to happen to me, i am much more interested in retaining the beginners mind without becoming an expert on such a range.
It seems to me, if you have a spiritual practice that never ends, you want it to slowly deepen over time, you don’t want to wander from teacher to teacher looking for a master to fulfill you. I am sure there are other styles of never-ending spiritual journeys. I think it was Osho who called the relationship between a master and a disciple a love-affair, so if you can find one that suits you that is a great blessing.
Any chance she was referring to the fact that we're made of star matter, that's where we began and that's where we will return eventually? Because I could get on board with that.
On a side note, I find it interesting that when we talk about gods and angels, or even loved ones who have passed on, we tend to look to the sky and often speak in terms of them "looking down."
All of my convict ancestors would be “looking up”!
...Some would say at the beginning ....
No I am afraid she meant the full-on transformation of mind post-death into an ascending entity which would by stages slowly reach the status of planetary overmind. And she let it be known that even though she had listened to a dhamma talk by Lama Surya Das the other day, there was no hope of ever convincing her to change her mind.
That is the end of any hopeless case
Sometimes that is compassionate, sometimes it may offer some service to others ... Many times we come across people who will tell us with certainty:
What then?
In her case I told her she was welcome to chat to me about her beliefs. I wasn’t going to do any research into ascension/dvd purchases/look into crazy guru people, but I was genuinely interested in what she believed and sometimes it helps to air that out, if she felt misunderstood by the world. Kind of a “be the listening ear” idea.
But the way she holds onto that pseudo-scientific thinking definitely has a flavour of the way a conspiracy theorist holds onto his favourite beliefs. I know several from my volunteering work, where it is my job to talk to one regularly and try to motivate his thoughts into other, healthier channels, and they see things through this narrow worldview.
I hope to encourage her critical thinking and eventually get her to see that the idea of becoming a planet is just that, an idea handed to her by other (profit-motivated) people which has no basis in reality. But she has to come to that realisation herself.
It was amusing, I tried talking to her about dukkha, that even a planetary mind would still have desires and goals and so be subject to dukkha, but she came up with the thought that it would all vanish during the transformation process. Hohum.
As a living planet and responsible for all realms, being Buddha takes all forms and a whole fleet/raft of companions ...
or to put it another way ...
When "I" end...
Where another begins.
No full stop... No question mark.... seems it's left hanging, then... we drop off the edge, but it seems it has other ideas...
Short answer - It never ends. And that is wonderful.
Peace to all
I'm a personalistic theist now, so I believe the end is.. when we are reciprocating love with a personal God. That's the goal, at least. That's the view I've come to. But we can associate with God here and now, since he is omnipresent. I believe everything is ultimately a part of God, and that when we keep silent and meditate, we are only experiencing one aspect of the divine (though an important aspect). We need to go deeper, and really it never ends, because while God is infinite, we are minute. We go on and on exploring and reciprocating, and love just keeps growing and growing endlessly.
Albeit a judgemental one.
Why? Isn't it better to focus on your journey and the Dharma than to try to convert someone else which isn't, as far as I know, part of the Dharma practise? Her journey is hers, yours is yours. If it were all about being "right" then Buddhism would be exactly the same as all the other religions who say they are "The One True Way ™"
It's a good point you make @FeistyGibblets - a monk friend of mine told me he argued on line with a lady for years re: Theravadan vs Mahayana (which is the true path) until he eventually realised we're all on different paths and let it go.
We iz on different paths going the same way? [lobster faints ... makes quick recovery]
That means we can support as well as we are able:
Everyone is on the path to Buddhahood ... even the cat I don't have?
⁉️❓
Also a rather judgmental statement. The point being, we are all judgmental on some level.
Well, then do you think there is no point in ever trying to help anyone? The whole point with conspiracy theorists is to help keep them from becoming narrow-minded obsessives.
I know we are all headed down our own paths, but she is a good friend, one I have known for a long time, and she deserves something better than to be spoon fed over-the-top alternative teachings by some dubious teacher. Trying to force her to do anything would be pointless, but I will encourage her to find a better way.
But can we support all these as walking the same path to buddhahood? If Donald Trump is on a path to buddhahood I will eat my hat (which is a safe bet seeing as I don’t have one). Which is a rather extreme example. The thing is, these people too have a precious human life and can learn the dhamma or other wholesome paths. That doesn’t mean that they are on them right now. Some of them are caught in heavy delusions, caught in the travails of confidence tricksters, stuck in a habit pattern.
Yes, but it depends how you transmit that judgement, if at all.
It depends. Did they ask for your help? Have they sought your assistance in seeing things form a different angle?
She may be listening with her cup already full, but it sounds to me as if you are too... Remember the adage: Would you rather be right, or would you rather be kind?
You are casting judgements all over the place here. Primarily on her intelligence. Because you imply she is more naive, dense, and unintelligent than you. She must be, if she gives credence to who you perceive to be a 'dubious teacher'. To you, maybe. To her, it may be precisely what she needs at this time.
I once put a vast amount of faith in crystals, Reiki and Spirit followers.
While I have "outgrown" such enthusiasms, and don't feel I need them any longer, because I have progressed, I still respect the steps I took with them, which brought me to where I am today.
She may move on. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Maybe she will go places with what she believes, maybe she won't, maybe she will change path, maybe she'll remain on the one she's walking.
Unless she reaches out to you for this 'help' you think she needs, then leave her alone.
Be happy that she has found a vocation and calling that brings her comfort, well-being and serenity.
Nobody appointed you her Advocate, least of all, her....
...Is probably precisely what she's thinking about you...
While I appreciate the attempts to give good advice, I’m actually ok with being a friend-with-an-agenda in this case. I don’t think it will get in the way of continued friendship, as long as I’m diplomatic and don’t let it dominate the discussion.
Also, I’m not sure you are appreciating how kooky these people are, I would consider reiki and spirit followers as eminently sane by comparison. Here is the website of her teacher, I will leave people to make their own minds up about how they would choose to react if a good friend revealed her fervent belief in these teachings.
https://www.arhayas.com/
Unless she begins to self-harm, or harm others, it's none of your business.
Shed the Agenda. Accept things as they are. Let go, and let be.
See my previous post/comment.
Hmm, last I checked people were still free to hold whatever opinions they liked, and argue that as well as they fancy. That goes for her, and for me too, and for you. But I don’t see why I should pay any attention to what you say if the argument is as poorly constructed as that.
Wow, such a Buddhist-centric viewpoint there Kerome....
Hmmm...Last I checked we were advised to a actually let go of our opinions. They don't so much construct who we are but they perpetuate the Self and root the Ego...
Arguments are not conducive to a calm interior, nor are they skilful.Perhaps debate might be a better concept...
It makes for an interesting and enjoyable journey, certainly. We shall have to agree to disagree which of course goes for both you and her too...
Well that borders on rudeness, @Kerome and is uncalled for... don't disguise an insult by passing it off as discussion...
It's a case of different strokes of the paddle for different folks on the raft...
What did you expect from a Buddhist then? Not saying that I am one, but just accepting other people’s standpoints which are presented as an ‘argument from authority’ (“you should do X because I said so”) is also not at all Buddhist. A Buddhist thinker would verify the teachings, would be prepared to go his own way if the viewpoint presented to him made no sense.
Yes, but your good friend is not a Buddhist thinker, so you cannot presume to impose your 'help' if none is asked for. If she stubs her toe, you cannot change the pain she feels. She has to feel it for herself. And by all means give her a walking stick. But only if she asks for one.
I wouldn’t want to impose anything, but I’m happy to help expose her to the relevant Buddhist teachings if the opportunity arises. The Kalama Sutra has much to say on the subject of how to choose a teacher which can benefit you on any path, for example.
To suggest or push one's ideals onto another is not the Way. The Buddha taught nothing unless asked to do so, and he was quick to include his own teachings as questionable.
If she seeks instruction, that is one thing. But if she does not, it's best to leave well alone; unless you have a mastery of Buddhism, it's not skilful as a Buddhist, to seek to change the course of another's stream of thought.
Interesting, with no About section or something similar, I cannot make heads or tails of this website or what their beliefs even are.
Makes me ever more grateful that the plain-spoken work of Thich Nhat Hanh made it to the States and is popular during my lifetime.
I have to catch myself a lot, because "This is the way" feels better in the moment than "Is this the way?"
It’s something to do with a planet Keylontia in another solar system, some kind of science they have there, the astral plane, gates of power on Earth, and a kind of ‘meditation’ called “journeys” from what I’ve been able to gather.
I suppose the more interesting question posed by this thread is, is there a religious path that you’d consider so deluded that you’d want to rescue someone you cared for from it
My gut reaction is to say all but one.
(Or two...maybe Taoism?)
But there are few things in the New Testament that I still carry with me, and one of them is this: "First take the log out of your own eye, then you will see clearly to take the speck from your brother's eye."
Let's not forget> @Ren_in_black said:
Tbh, I very much doubt any such emoticon will be introduced as not really being in keeping with the general required tone of a Buddhist forum.
Besides, why make more work for me...?
I was only joking @federica
We dont really need a what's this for button... not sure why that's not in keeping with Buddhist tone though :-)
Lobster got my joke! My point was not really a wtf button but to point out Shock that Ren_in_black thinks that Taoism is a religion/world view that someone would need to be save from. Coming from Taoism before Buddhism and seeing the many similarities, I found it an odd comment to make.
Unless the person or those close to them, were suffering real and purposeful harm, then no.
How dare I presume such a thing?
You know it really is quite an egoic thing to want to rescue someone from something that brings them enjoyment, peace of mind and fulfilment.
I mean, really, why?
What gives you the right to be so presumptuous as to assume you know what's good for them or otherwise? And to call them deluded? You care for them, yet call them deluded... I can't figure that one out at all...
Tell me how you would feel if a close personal friend wanted to 'rescue' you from Buddhism.
I mean, how stupid can you be to follow a religion that has no god, deity or eternal maker, but gives you a short fat guy to pin your beliefs on? And all he talks about, is suffering!
And aren't you a vegetarian? And why haven't you shaved your head, isn't that what Buddhists do?
(incidentally, this is all from a good Catholic friend of mine, whose ideas of Buddhism these were.)
You know how I responded? I didn't. Haven't spoken to her for over 10 years.
Take care you do not reap the same reward from this someone you claim you care for.
Umm..well perhaps the ones where a permanent sense of a self is involved ...can't get more deluded than that...
I guess Bodhisattvas have got their work cut out for them...
But you didn't ask that, you just denigrated the beliefs of a "friend"....
Just to clarify, I quoted Kerome's question about a religious path being so deluded that a person needed rescuing from it.
I responded that, for me, it would be all of them BUT one (meaning Buddhism, since that's why we're here) and maybe a second, Taoism.
Or to put it another way: definitely Buddhism and probably Taoism are the two religious paths that I would consider NOT to be delusional.
Regardless, it was meant lightheartedly. Hence the second part of my comment, Matthew 7, was meant to illustrate that, in a more serious discussion, I couldn't flippantly dismiss all other religious paths--the Abrahamic ones, the other Eastern ones, and even the spaceship ones--because of the proverbial log in my own eye.
Sorry @Ren_in_black
Totally read that wrong.
No worries, glad I could see where the misunderstanding was. Whereas, just a click of the WTF button would have gone over my head.
Beautiful.
Who thinks enlightenment is the end?
Wrong!
Just a good beginning ... Now you know.
Buddha sits quietly. Perfect enlightenment (fairy tale dharma) and returns as a perfect bodhisattva for years of sangha dispersement. Somebody has to do it ...
Luckily 'the hills are alive ...'
