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The Other Elephant In The Room
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An interview with the Palestinian Ambassador to the UK Husam Zomlot on Democracy Now
His emotional response at times is understandable ....
One of the comments I came across...
"The US, UK EU and others can never lecture anyone on human rights ever again."
Owen Jones on "Hypocrisy Over Gaza and Ukraine"...
When it comes to the US, UK and EU.....
"Hypocrisy is the homage that vice pays to virtue"
~Francois Duc De La Rochefoucauld~
Palestine's Deputy Permanent Observer to the UN Historic speech at the UN Security Council
Such a moving speech....
You can watch the Israeli Representative member's UN speech which starts at 53 minutes in...
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Breaking Point's
Break down of the latest ICJ genocide charges against Israel.
Euro Med Monitor's Infographic
For those interested... the full ICJ speeches on the Crime of Genocide...
I found Irish lawyer Blinne Ní Ghrálaigh KC speech quite moving ....
It will be interested in seeing how much air time Western media outlets give to this...and which clips will the general public get to see...
Israel will have its day in court tomorrow....
The US and the UK decided to launch airstrikes on Houthi targets in Yemen...Hmmm on the day when Israel is being charged with crimes of Genocide at the ICJ in the Hague...
Just coincidental ? Or an headline grabber, to draw the public's attention away from what's going on in the Hague?
Why as a species that seems so evolved, can we not learn from mistakes of the past and keep perpetuating them. The cycle of war and violence is never ending. Imagine the world we could live in if this cycle were broken.
Interesting to note that many western tv channels that didn't air the ICJ case over the last few days ..are now televising Israel's defence...
I just watched the first few minutes of the lawyer’s speech from @Shoshin1’s video, very strong language coming out of the UN as far as what’s happening in Gaza.
Israel's response to the Genocide allegations
Security Council Meetings 9531 & 9532 | United Nations
I thought that would be the case....
The Western media are continuing their biased reporting...Here in Aotearoa (NZ) there was a brief (in passing) mention on our news about the SA case....I have yet to watch today's news to see if they give more airtime to Israel's defence...
I refuse to give any of my time to any of it anymore. For my practise's sake and my sanity.
@SuraShine The news are really toxic. I think rather than giving you information to be able to operate with or at least discuss/think, they give you information to react.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/13/south-africa-israel-genocide-the-hague
This piece does show that Israel’s defence against the genocide case is very weak. It’s good that these things are getting out in the press now, because what they have been doing is execrable. A quarter of the people of Gaza have no home to come back to due to the bombing.
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Many moons ago, one of my Tibetan Dharma teachers once said "If people truly understood the law of Karma, there would be no need for a police force, for there would be no more crimes"...
In a nutshell when you understand Karma you would police yourself....
Hence why we train/practice to become our own thought police
I've not studied psychiatry or psychology, but from what I gather the behaviour of Blinken, Biden and Sunak comes a cross as psychopathic....
“If everyone demanded peace — instead of another television set — then there would be peace.”
John Lennon
UN Chief's Press Briefing...
“When exposing a crime is treated as committing a crime, you are being ruled by criminals!” - Edward Snowden
I've been looking for Buddhist practitioners prospective on the what's happening in Gaza and came across these...No doubt there are quite a few.....
https://secularbuddhistnetwork.org/reflections-in-a-time-of-war/
https://houseofteresa.com/2023/10/18/buddhist-palestinian/
https://www.buddhistdoor.net/features/the-koan-of-gaza-not-turning-away/
“What is a wise response to the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict?"
It is each and everyone’s responsibility to take care of the situation. What is needed in this conflict, and maybe in every conflict, is a mutual emphatic acknowledgement of the narrative, suffering, fears and humaneness of the other, seeing clearly the mutual dependent arising and ceasing of both sides. Not only that we can’t allow ourselves to leave it to the politicians, we also can’t allow ourselves to hide behind perceptions like acceptance, equanimity, gentle speech, ‘the way it is’, etc. Understood with wisdom, these words are not to be grasped at or taken as a justification for non action. Yes, we have to act skillfully, with the Right Intention, with Loving-kindness and Compassion, with a pure heart, not with hatred and violence. But we have to take a stand in view of oppression and injustice. We have to speak up and engage. Otherwise, all this practice of the Buddha Dhamma is futile.
~Thanissara~
I found this interesting....
How mainstream news is doing Israel's dirty work of sanitizing slaughter
https://adfontesmedia.com/real-news-network-bias-and-reliability/
Hmm some interesting things in that video.
The mainstream media news here is also censored where those reporting on Gaza use the same loaded words as CNN, and no doubt many other Western mainstream media outlets....
I found the quote from Politic and the English Language by George Orwell (around the 52 minutes mark in the Real News Network video), quite interesting...
According to George Orwell , political language is often used to defend actions that are hard to justify. To make these actions sound better, politicians use vague and misleading language. For instance, bombing defenseless villages and forcing people out of their homes is called "pacification," taking away farmers' land and displacing them is termed "transfer of population" or "rectification of frontiers," and imprisoning or killing people without a fair trial is referred to as the "elimination of unreliable elements." Such language is used to talk about unpleasant things without creating strong mental images that might provoke opposition or criticism.
But really we are talking about ethnic cleansing on a large scale. It is not exactly genocide, but it is motivated by the threat of genocide. They have unhomed a quarter of Gaza’s population, killed 1.25% of the civilians, and moved the rest of them into internment camps in Southern Gaza.
It’s been this Bronze Age strategy (I think that’s what they called it in the video) of holding the people accountable for the actions of the leaders. It’s a thing hearing them discuss this pretty much openly. It’s a long way from a two-state solution within old Palestine.
Meet Tal Mitnick, First Israeli Jailed for Refusing Military Service...
https://adfontesmedia.com/democracy-now-bias-and-reliability/
What a brave young man....
So how does everyone feel about the other slaughters and genocides going on in the world?
It seems in our eagerness to condemn Israel we're ignoring other's suffering in the world. That's not what very balanced is it? I mean, we're SUPPOSED to want to ease the suffering of EVERY sentient being right?...
The Rohingya and Darfur genocides are STILL being played out and no one mentions them.
Regrettably, there are numerous conflicts occurring globally, leading to the loss of lives and displacement of many individuals.
The situations faced by the Rohingya people in Myanmar and the people in Darfur are deeply distressing. The involved factions lack a democratic foundation and do not assert themselves as the most ethical armed forces.
When it comes to Israel, what I find concerning is its self-proclaimed status as a Western democracy that upholds international law, the Geneva Convention, and the Genocide Convention and claims to have the most ethical military in the world. Despite these claims, reports indicate inhumane treatment of prisoners (some have used the term "hostages" because many are taken by gunpoint by IDF soldiers and held without trial this includes children), the targeting of humanitarian workers, journalists, and civilian infrastructure. Additionally, the influence of the IDF on certain Western media outlets covering Gaza raises questions about impartial reporting.
We are fortunate that the situation in Gaza continues to be documented by local residents, including Palestinian journalists who, unfortunately, remain targets for the IDF. Furthermore, certain social media posts by IDF soldiers in Gaza contribute little to enhancing Israel's global reputation.....
When it comes to other acts of genocide, if one thinks about the consequences of historical and present-day genocidal actions, one has only to look at other regions affected by, for example European colonisation . Indigenous populations, turned into minorities, often endure inhumane treatment, racism and the repercussions of land seizures.
Acknowledging this complex history, (which more often than not very little is mentioned in school textbooks), is essential for a more comprehensive understanding of the colonial order of the world we live in and why genocidal acts and ethnic cleansing must be documented so those committing such acts are held accountable.
While I don't agree with Israel's current actions, I find it extremely concerning that BECAUSE of Israel's current actions, the losses they suffered at the beginning of a war they didn't start are swept under the rug or reasoned away. Women WERE raped, tortured and killed. Babies WERE butchered. Hostages WERE held in despicable conditions and hostage holders ARE UNWHR teachers being paid by the UN. Hostages ARE still being held presumably with substandard medical care.
These are still acts of criminality and just as subject to scrutiny as Israel's actions. Yet I don't see Hamas being brought to court. The lack of accountability does not sit well with me. And THAT is just wrong.
As I've mentioned before, the attack by the military wing of Hamas was horrendous...
Is the killing of thousands upon thousands of innocent Palestinian men women and children and babies by the IDF any different ?
Long before the 7th of October the IDF have been carrying out raids into the Palestinian territories for decades, killing and wounding innocent civilians men woman and children and putting many into Israeli prisons...nothing happens in a vacuum....
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According to the UN
UNRWA has been following the traction of a post by an Israeli journalist on the social media platform X. The post claims that there is an alleged connection between an Israeli hostage held in Gaza and an UNRWA school teacher. The journalist did not provide more information on this claim.
“UNRWA and other entities in the United Nations have asked the journalist to provide more information on what we consider to be a very serious allegation. Despite repeated demands, the journalist has not responded.
“UNRWA requests that the journalist provides an immediate clarification of the claims, and that whoever may be able to assist us in determining the facts comes forward.
“In the absence of credible information to support this claim, UNRWA requests that the journalist immediately deletes the post. Making serious allegations in the public domain, unsupported by any evidence or verifiable facts in support thereof may amount to misinformation.
“UNRWA reiterates that it takes all allegations of breach of UN principles extremely seriously and immediately investigates them. We are hence determined to find out whether the information in question is genuine or false.
“UNRWA is the largest humanitarian organization in the Gaza Strip and is currently hosting more than 1 million people in its shelters. Defamation attacks and the spread of misinformation about UNRWA -from any side- directly endanger the lifesaving operations of the Agency and its staff operating on the ground.
“These harmful and presumably gratuitous acts must stop, immediately.”
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The IDF has been stopping essential supplies (including medical supplies) from entering Gaza...
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• Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has vowed to continue the war on the Gaza Strip until Hamas has been destroyed. He said: Hamas leaders have only two options either to “surrender of die.” (22 October 2023) “They are the new Nazis.” (23 October 2023)
• Israeli President Isaac Herzog said: “there are no innocent civilians in Gaza.” (23 October 2023).
• The Defence Minister said: “We will wipe this thing called Hamas, ISIS-Gaza, off the face of the earth. It will cease to exist.” (12 October 2023)
• Former Israeli ambassador to the United Nations described Palestinians as “horrible, inhuman animals.” (26 October 2023)
• Deputy Knesset Speaker said: “We Are Too Humane. Burn Gaza Now.” (17 November 2023).
Along with thousands upon thousands of innocent Palestinians civilians killed, the IDF have already killed many members of Hamas's military wing plus they have assassinated a Hamas leader in Beirut...
And they continue to bomb and kill more innocent Palestinian men, women, children and babies...
Deleted by author. Don't think I can add something helpful at this moment.
“The attack by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum.”
UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres
Wise words.
Israel’s relentless cruel domination over the Palestinians for 56 years could ONLY produce this type of conflict. And until the US and Israel change course it is perfectly predictable that the smoldering will continue to produce intermittent flashes, and generations will continue to suffer. If Israel eradicates Hamas, other freedom fighters will arise. Rebellion against repression is seen throughout history. Ignorance, arrogance, and a limitless supply of US weapons over the decades have earned Israel the learned hatred of the Palestinian people. Their current actions are earning them the learned horror of a much wider group, some of whom now are transitioning from audience to participants.
I kind of get where @SuraShine is coming from. I'm far from fully informed, so I'm sure I'm missing some things. I guess I don't really follow mainstream news sources, so my perspective on what is being covered doesn't really reflect that. In my feed, there is plenty of criticism of Israel's actions. To me this conflict seems like a cycle of violence with victims and perpetrators all around. Coverage seems to be primarily about how one side is more to blame than the other in either direction depending on the source.
Hamas gets a brief slap on the wrist and then all the focus is on Israel. Gaza has received lots of international aid over the years and instead of improving life for Gazans, Hamas has used it for violence. Instead of building schools or bomb shelters for its citizens it has created tunnels, it has torn up water pipes to use as bombs. Hamas uses its citizens as shields and wants them to die at the hands of Israeli over reaction for the propaganda win. Hamas doesn't want peace, if they had the ability they would commit real genocide against the Jews of Israel and burn them off the map.
A major reason Israel has such heavy handed controls over Palestinians in the area is due to the very real security threat. Imagine if where you live surrounding countries harbored groups of people who wanted you dead, if on Oct 7th masses of Canadians crossed into US territory and slaughtered 10s of thousands of US citizens and then threatened to do it again and again, I'd be pretty scared too and want to be protected.
Israel is held to a higher standard. Everything Hamas has done easily violates war crime laws, but it isn't being taken to international court. There is some justification for this in terms of the legitimacy and power of both Hamas and Israel. And speaking out against Israel might have some effect, speaking out against Hamas isn't going to change their behavior one bit. And right now the bigger issue is how Israel is going about waging this fight. From my uninformed perspective I haven't really heard much about what they should do instead other than "stop it", which doesn't seem like much of a solution to the threat. In the end it is still a double standard though and it'd be nice to hear some perspective on Hamas' sins too.
My hope is that when the dust settles cooler heads will be able to start doing some real work towards a peaceful solution.
There was an interesting article on the Dutch mainstream news about how the political landscape in Gaza works. Apparently Hamas’ approval ratings are up slightly among Palestinians, but they haven’t held elections since 2006 when they gained power.
There is no democratic government in Gaza, for example all the government officials are paid from the Hamas bank accounts, so a lot of the population is directly dependent on Hamas. The unemployment rate is over 40 percent, and about half live below the poverty limits.
But there is criticism of Hamas in some quarters. People are saying this is the worst war yet, and this is what Hamas as brought upon them, although they don’t believe Israel will succeed in its attempt to wipe out Hamas. Largely because Hamas is not only fighters, it is a multilayered organisation which extends through much of the life in Gaza.
As long as you have government by a terrorist organisation in Gaza, there is not going to be peace. That much is becoming clear. We will have to wait and see what the Israelis intend to do.
While as Historian I understand the conflict's origins and the root causes, I can't stop thinking of the song which says... "Why can't we be friends...why can't we be friends..."
This said, cruelty is a common manifestation from the vast repertoire of human activity. This is a very disruptive and damaging mechanism that alters the psyche and the environment in a tremendous way.
I have lived my fair share of exposition to the war in Ukraine, which ended up showing to me how little human life is valued when the minds and hearts bond towards such an objective, the declaration of destruction unless ones sides demands are completely obliged with.
So far from compassion, understanding...
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Hamas and many Palestinians sees all Israelis as land grabbing occupier terrorists and a potential threat and with good reason to...
Israel and many Israeli sees all Palestinians as suicide bombing terrorists and a potential threat and with good reason to...
"Hurt people hurt people...Hatred begets more hatred...Violence begets more violence..."...
Acknowledging double standards is important. While Israel faces scrutiny, it's also very important to address violations by all parties involved. International bodies should hold accountable those responsible for war crimes, irrespective of their affiliation.
Has I've mentioned before, criticism of the Israeli government's actions doesn't necessarily imply support for Hamas. It's possible to hold both parties accountable for actions that violate international law. Israel's ongoing military actions, especially in densely populated areas, have raised many concerns about innocent civilian casualties.
Gaza has received international aid, but the effectiveness of aid distribution is influenced by various factors, including instability and conflict. Some argue that Israel's blockade also hampers development in the region.
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One possible solution would be a one-state solution which would require the creation of a unified, democratic state encompassing Israel and the Palestinian territories. Key elements include equal rights and representation for all citizens, addressing security concerns, achieving demographic balance, respecting cultural and religious sensitivities, establishing a legal framework, promoting economic integration, and gaining international recognition and support. The feasibility and desirability of this solution vary, and any potential resolution would require extensive negotiation, compromise, and commitment from all parties involved.
Hope for a peaceful solution is shared by many and addressing the root causes of the conflict are essential steps toward lasting peace.
The same can be said for Israel regarding its extreme right wing government....
Your (now deleted) causality post did provide some food for thought @marcitko ....
For this to have happened, that must have happened and because that happened this as now happened....
Could a one state solution work? The whole point of the state of Israel is to prevent a Jewish minority. They have a long history of bad things happening to them when they can't control their own situation.
It seems the two state solution has fallen out of favor, I haven't really been able to discern why exactly. Is it that Israel will take the best bits and leave the Palestinians with scraps?
Thanks @person it's important to have different viewpoints...
With the way things stand at this moment in time anything is possible...even a one state solution ...It might be the only hope for long term peace....not saying it will be easy, but it's not impossible....
I think this is what's happening now with the illegal Israeli settlements popping up on Palestinian land, this seem to be one of the big sticking points/points of contention...
"Hamas and many Palestinians sees all Israelis as land grabbing occupier terrorists and a potential threat and with good reason to..."
And Israelis seem them as a threat too. So, mutually perceived threat = whoever has the biggest stick wins.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2bFK6jyvFI0
Thank you, I'll repost it then.
What I was thinking was that the way in which we see this conflict (and things in general) depends on the events we include in our analysis and the perceived causality.
Roughly, it seems to me these are the options. In each one, I just add one preceding causality and c/p the former chain of events.
a) Hamas attacks Israel and commits attrocities --> Israel attacks Gaza and commits attrocities.
b) Israel holds Gaza in a blockade and horrible conditions --> Hamas attacks Israel and commits attrocities --> Israel attacks Gaza and commits attrocities
c) Regional wars --> Israel holds Gaza in a blockade and horrible conditions --> Hamas attacks Israel and commits attrocities --> Israel attacks Gaza and commits attrocities
d) Foolish settlement of Jews in Palestine supported by the West --> Regional wars --> Israel holds Gaza in a blockade and horrible conditions --> Hamas attacks Israel and commits attrocities --> Israel attacks Gaza and commits attrocities
e) Nazi attrocities against the Jews --> Foolish settlement of Jews in Palestine supported by the West --> Regional wars --> Israel holds Gaza in a blockade and horrible conditions --> Hamas attacks Israel and commits attrocities --> Israel attacks Gaza and commits attrocities.
In this thread, NB members have analyzed the situation at different times from different A-E viewpoints. Hence, their conclusions have sometimes been different.
I consider myself a "relativist in recovery", so I am not trying to relativize everything away, just maybe to add some context to our disagreements so that we see that those we have disagreed with are not totally mad or immoral or negative in X sense.
Hope this makes sense. Am on my first morning coffee
The current "Leadership" in Israel has, as of today, no interest in ending the war.
Yes, Hamas committed a horrendous act of terrorism.
No, the people of Gaza are not Hamas.
Yes, the people of Gaza are paying a horrendous price for the acts of Hamas.
Neither Hamas nor the current Israeli "Leadership" have any intention of ending the ongoing conflict, even if the IDF packs up and declares victory.
As with all such conflicts and wars, only the arms manufacturers and a few profeteers "gain" from this one. Yet, even they lose.
As it seems no resolution will be accomplished, when the guns fall silent and the status quo is reestablished, the terrible cycle will begin anew.
This is the fundamental darkness in it's horrific manifestation.
For peace, true peace, both sides (or all sides) must acknowledge each other's humanity. The must not see only, "Those others" the great "They". Only when they recognize "Those others" as persons, as fellow human beings, as true neighbors, can the healing and growth begin. A necessary but daunting task indeed. War is easy - Peace takes hard work and ongoing diligence.
A prayer for all who are suffering in war and intolerance.
We have a right wing coalition government here in Aotearoa (NZ) now...two of the member parties of the coalition are bordering extreme...
The US has requested assistance for international support for their illegal bombing in Yemen, and this government has agreed to join ....
The government recently joined other countries in a call for a ceasefire in Gaza (because of public opinion pressure and not out of compassion) and now they join the US and its allies in bombing (and no doubt killing innocent civilians) in Yemen...
The PM was ask why NZ is helping to bomb Yemen ,when we are now calling for a ceasefire? He said something a long the lines of "What we are doing has no connection to what is happening in Gaza...We still want a ceasefire" .... What a load of crap....
From what I gather the so-called Houthi rebels have not killed anyone in these attacks on ships in the Red sea, they have just slowed down supplies destined for Israel...However the US and UK have killed a number of Houthis....
"Hypocrisy is the homage vice pays to virtue"
It's quite sickening ...but not surprising from this government, they have already started to suppress Maori rights ( rights which have taken many years to obtain) and they will gradually chip away the rights of minorities and workers...
The Green Party's response to the government's decision
You made me think of this…
Interesting video @Jeroen ....
To have concerns about what is going on in the world and the suffering that some governments' actions are causing for people is a natural occurrence for those who care for humanity.
On a personal level, any suffering that I might experience pales in comparison to that experienced by those facing 'real' physical hardships at the hands of others.
For the most part, I have no anger, worry, or anxiety.
"Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored, than to anything on which it is poured"
~Mark Twain~
Advice I live by.....maintain an empty vessel...
This sums up my POV perfectly. It's frustrating to see the uneven-ness (is that even a word) and even now, people get their backs up at my frustration and STILL refuse to see my intent.
In theory a one state solution is the best solution. In reality it won't work because while both sides are indigenous to the land, they refuse to cooperate - Hamas led Palestine (which is almost all except the West Bank currently under PA's leadership) refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist and Israel refuse to lay down their arms and open themselves up to the possibility of consistent attacks a la Oct 7.
I'm bowing out of this conversation now because honestly I feel that anyone who is not outrightly anti Israel here is considered wrong and my sanity is worth more than feeling like that.
Metta to all,
Sura
I don't think those who have posted here are anti-Semitic/anti-Israel. They are expressing their concerns regarding the Israeli government's actions, which are not only making Israeli citizens and the surrounding regions unsafe but are also making Jewish people around the world unsafe.
Many people in the West were shocked when hearing about Hamas's attack and the killing of Israelis. Many supported Israel's right to retaliate. However, when Israel started to target and bomb homes, hospitals, schools, mosques, and churches, cutting off power, water, food and medical supplies, (with blatant disregard for international humanitarian laws) resulting in the deaths of thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians, including men, women, children, and babies, including the targeting of Journalists, and humanitarian workers... support for their actions waned and then shifted to the Palestinian civilian population...
Indeed.
One of the salient conditions in this and other conflicts between Israel and Palestine, is that nobody asks question like why did Hamas attack? What prompted the attack and when it was executed? What was the objective?
And is Israel trying to remove Hamas, or to rid Gaza of all Palestinians, dead or alive, to make more room for settlement. IOW an ethnic cleansing.
And why does the US so blindly allow Israel carte blanche?