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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited April 19
@Shoshin1 said:
Interesting debate on Breaking Point
LIVE ISRAEL DEBATE: Cenk Uygur, Dave Smith VS. Dennis Prager, Batya Ungar-Sargon
Out of the four debaters, I have to say that the stand up comedian 'Dave Smith' made the most sense...Funny that....a funny guy/comedian very clear and precise in his answers to serious questions...
Batya Ungar-Sargon was good to....when she mentioned the areas of common ground...
Just started watching. I listen to a lot of cross partisan panels and debates. Both Prager and Uygur are partisan shills and aren't the kind of people invited on the shows I listen to. Batya Ungar-Sargon has been on, and I recognize her, would like to hear Dave Smith more. As I listen Dave is mostly responding to and rebutting Dennis, and Batya responding and rebutting Cenk. If it were just Dave and Batya and maybe two more with similar dispositions this would be much more productive.
Gaza a ‘humanitarian hellscape’: UN chief
It's unbelievable that some people still see Israel as the victim in this conflict, portraying itself as merely defending against aggression while inflicting mass casualties on Palestinian civilians, including men, women, children, and even babies, and devastating Gaza without achieving its stated objectives of freeing hostages or eradicating Hamas.
Their latest strategy, seemingly aimed at diverting attention from their planned assault on Rafah, involves targeting the Iranian embassy in Syria to provoke a response from Iran, thereby justifying further attacks on Iran itself. This pattern of aggression doesn't fit with the idea of self-defense
Meanwhile, the ongoing killing of Palestinian civilians continues without pause, while preparations are underway for a full-scale assault on Rafah, a move that will inevitably result in the deaths of thousands more innocent people, including countless men, women, children, and babies, with weapons supplied by the United States.
It's particularly tragic because many Jewish people worldwide are undoubtedly appalled by the violence and loss of life, especially considering that some may have relatives serving in the Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF). Witnessing the destruction and loss of thousands of lives in Gaza, and hearing the term 'genocide' used to describe Israel's actions, This is likely to make those who empathise with the suffering of both Palestinians and Israelis even more anxious and afraid..
As I've mentioned before it is the innocent who suffer the most....
@Shoshin1 said:
It's unbelievable that some people still see Israel as the victim in this conflict,
That's just it - most people never did. Of course Israel are being touted as the "evil" ones from day one. A large swathe of people have regularly said Jews deserve this. Yes they say Jews, not Israel. Israel and Jew are regularly interchanged as it gives people maximum target for their hatred.
Their latest strategy, seemingly aimed at diverting attention from their planned assault on Rafah, involves targeting the Iranian embassy in Syria to provoke a response from Iran, thereby justifying further attacks on Iran itself. This pattern of aggression doesn't fit with the idea of self-defense
Israel are up-front with their plans of attack.
This pattern of aggression doesn't fit with the idea of self-defense
Neither did the attack on Israeli civilians on October 7th. And there was a ceasefire still in place on October 6th. Israel didn't break that.
Meanwhile, the ongoing killing of Palestinian civilians continues without pause, while preparations are underway for a full-scale assault on Rafah, a move that will inevitably result in the deaths of thousands more innocent people, including countless men, women, children, and babies, with weapons supplied by the United States.
At the risk of upsetting you and others with your viewpoint, we don't really know how many of the alleged dead in Palestine are civilians. No one has made Hamas accountable for the numbers they release. Unlike Israel who have all their statistics verified independently because no one believes them. (Which is nothing new really. People still deny the Holocaust FFS).
It's particularly tragic because many Jewish people worldwide are undoubtedly appalled by the violence and loss of life, especially considering that some may have relatives serving in the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF). Witnessing the destruction and loss of thousands of lives in Gaza, and hearing the term 'genocide' used to describe Israel's actions, This is likely to make those who empathise with the suffering of both Palestinians and Israelis even more anxious and afraid..
Ya think? I've written countless responses and deleted them because no matter what Jews say, we're called "genocide supporters" "colonisers" (we're not, a quick search online at archaeological and scientific sites shows irrefutable evidence that Jews have been present in the land since 1200 BCE) and worse because we ARE Jewish. I've been doxxed along with other Australian Jews. I'm not Israeli but that doesn't matter at all to anti-Jews or "anti-Zionists"
As I've mentioned before it is the innocent who suffer the most....
I'm currently undergoing identity theft with the federal police involved. My bank accounts, government access, the works have all been compromised. I suffer antisemitism daily to the point where I hide my Jewishness in all forms. I'm Australian, never been to Israel but it doesn't matter. I'm judged by my heritage. A lot of my friends are Muslims, some of them are realistic about how we're both caught up in the conflict by nature of our birth. Others have told me I'm scum and Hitler should have finished the job. (Obviously I'm no longer friends with them).
I know you're posting here as a kind of therapy for your horror at the situation, I get it. It makes me extremely uncomfortable at times with some of your rhetoric, but I get it and I use those feelings as fodder for my own practise. But please don't expect all Jews who don't agree with the Israeli government to turn their back on Israel completely.
I know you're posting here as a kind of therapy for your horror at the situation
Yes I guess in a way it is kind of therapeutic, but I don't write or post videos with the intention to harm others/incite violence...just information which some readers 'may' find of interest,
And I'm sorry if what I post makes you feel uncomfortable @SuraShine, but why do you continue to click on this thread, when you know that some of the contents may disturbs you?
For far too long, Israel (acknowledging that not all Jewish people see present-day Israel as their homeland) has seemingly evaded accountability for their treatment of the Palestinian people, often described as 'getting away with murder.'
In the past, only a few brave individuals (myself not included) dared to criticise Israel. Many more wished to voice concerns about the treatment of Palestinians but hesitated for fear of being labeled anti-Semitic for criticising the Israeli government. Ironically, even some Jewish people feared this label.
One has only got to look at what's happening in Germany at the moment, where German Jews are being called anti-Semites and even arrested for expressing solidarity with the Palestinian people. This illustrates the current chaotic state of the world.
The point being made is that it's always the innocent who suffer the most, as demonstrated by recent events .
No one has made Hamas accountable for the numbers they release. Unlike Israel who have all their statistics verified independently because no one believes them.
You do realise that Israel won't allow independent observers into Gaza.
There are times when there is no offence intended, where a person just writes about what has been happening in the world, but some just don't like what's been written and want to shut the person up...
Again, look at what's been happening recently in German the US & UK...
Just so you know, over the years I have had friends of different ethnic backgrounds and religions, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist.
If the shoe was on the other foot, (that is, if the Palestinians had a 'government' that was treating the Israelis in a way that was cruel and unjust killing and stealing land and so forth ) I would also be speaking out about the plight of the Israeli people in the same manner...
As MLK said "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny"
I know you're posting here as a kind of therapy for your horror at the situation
Yes I guess in a way it is kind of therapeutic, but I don't write or post videos with the intention to harm others/incite violence...just information which some readers 'may' find of interest,
And I'm sorry if what I post makes you feel uncomfortable @SuraShine, but why do you continue to click on this thread, when you know that some of the contents may disturbs you?
For far too long, Israel (acknowledging that not all Jewish people see present-day Israel as their homeland) has seemingly evaded accountability for their treatment of the Palestinian people, often described as 'getting away with murder.'
In the past, only a few brave individuals (myself not included) dared to criticise Israel. Many more wished to voice concerns about the treatment of Palestinians but hesitated for fear of being labeled anti-Semitic for criticising the Israeli government. Ironically, even some Jewish people feared this label.
One has only got to look at what's happening in Germany at the moment, where German Jews are being called anti-Semites and even arrested for expressing solidarity with the Palestinian people. This illustrates the current chaotic state of the world.
The point being made is that it's always the innocent who suffer the most, as demonstrated by recent events .
No one has made Hamas accountable for the numbers they release. Unlike Israel who have all their statistics verified independently because no one believes them.
You do realise that Israel won't allow independent observers into Gaza.
There are times when there is no offence intended, where a person just writes about what has been happening in the world, but some just don't like what's been written and want to shut the person up...
Again, look at what's been happening recently in German the US & UK...
Just so you know, over the years I have had friends of different ethnic backgrounds and religions, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist.
If the shoe was on the other foot, (that is, if the Palestinians had a 'government' that was treating the Israelis in a way that was cruel and unjust killing and stealing land and so forth ) I would also be speaking out about the plight of the Israeli people in the same manner...
As MLK said "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny"
I appreciate your reply, I really do. And thank you for expanding on the points the way you have, it means a lot.
I agree with some of the points you have made in this post. I wanted to address a few things for clarity's sake.
You do realise that Israel won't allow independent observers into Gaza.
Yes I do, but the Associated Foreign Press and others have analysed, questioned, verified, rechecked etc all Israeli statistics including the original deaths from October 7th without entering the country. If they can do this then surely there's no problem verifying Hamas' Ministry of Health claims.
And I'm sorry if what I post makes you feel uncomfortable @SuraShine, but why do you continue to click on this thread, when you know that some of the contents may disturbs you?
Because I can? It's like an itch to scratch at times. Honestly, I don't come onto this thread very often these days and like I said previously, when I find myself reacting, I use those reactions as fodder for my own practise. But since posting my previous reply, I have decided to limit my time here and on the forum in general - but I thought I at least owed you an answer. I've turned off my notifications for the forum.
If the shoe was on the other foot, (that is, if the Palestinians had a 'government' that was treating the Israelis in a way that was cruel and unjust killing and stealing land and so forth ) I would also be speaking out about the plight of the Israeli people in the same manner...
The Palestinians do have a government doing that to Israel though. Hamas, who they voted in to power over Gaza in 2005 and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Both of those parties are funded by the Islamic Public of Iran and both of them are based in Qatar. The Islamic Republic of Iran funnel at least $100 million annually to Hamas and at least 700 million to Hezbollah. There have been a multitude of forced exiles of Jews from Israel/Palestine for at least a thousand years. The last one in 1917 just before the Ottoman Empire relinquished control of the area. And there have been plenty of attacks from Palestine, instigated by them to Israel since 1917. When Israel was re-established in 1948, the land the Palestinians were inhabiting stretched into Jordan and Egypt and the border into Lebanon was also further into Lebanon. These countries refused the Palestinians that land. Other countries like Syria and Iraq deemed this "avoiding the Palestinian refugee problem" Why are these countries not being held accountable as well? Egypt wouldn't even open a border to Palestinians to flee the fighting until international pressure was applied by means of financial penalties.
Now I in no way agree with the occupation of the West Bank. It was never agreed upon and Israel has no business being there. My personal belief, as a Jew and a human being, is that the original borders should be adhered to. The main argument I get against those beliefs is that in the 1967 war, Israel won and "conquered" extra land. Is it a moral or ethical argument? I don't personally think so. Yet there are many countries in Europe currently that have borders differing due to "conquers" through modern warfare. I believe that they should also be held to the same measure as Israel - that's just my POV, I know you haven't raised that and it's not a dig at you in any way.
The bottom line is - the history is a lot more complex than is being demonstrated by those in a position of power to disseminate information to the world at large. Having studied ancient history myself at a tertiary level and having a daughter doing her degree at University majoring in Israel and the Near East, I have some deeper knowledge of the region and access to textbooks that some don't. That does not make me superior in this in any way, though I admit it frustrates me no end to see how the general public are not given all the information before they make an informed choice either way. And I am certain that if I started to post on any platform, many would automatically label me as a genocide lover or other horrible label going around online.
I'm sorry this is so long. I wanted to clarify my position and why I feel the way I do. Like I said, I have disabled notifications and am going to intentionally minimise my time online so I may not see your reply straight away.
I write this coming from a position of respect for you and in the interest of understanding.
Much metta,
Sura
4
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@SuraShine, much respect for arguing a difficult position and making your views clear.
I think no country in the world is exempt from being a host to minority populations, the Netherlands where I live is 10% Muslim these days, nearly 2 million mostly Moroccan and Turkish expats, and here it is all about tolerance and cooperation and finding the good parts of being a multicultural society.
In an ideal world, Israel’s government would also become a government for all its citizens, dealing in creating an atmosphere of tolerance and not one of hostility. It pains me to see those big concrete walls which they have erected in parts of the country, the checkpoints, the patrols with military equipment.
But I can see the Jewish people deserve to have a place which they can call home, a land which they can return to after so many years of wandering and settling in different parts of the globe. I hope they can find a way to live in peace with the Arab populations surrounding them.
When Israel was re-established in 1948, the land the Palestinians were inhabiting stretched into Jordan and Egypt and the border into Lebanon was also further into Lebanon. These countries refused the Palestinians that land. Other countries like Syria and Iraq deemed this "avoiding the Palestinian refugee problem" Why are these countries not being held accountable as well?
Some Arab countries in the region did provide some support to Palestinian refugees, including humanitarian aid and setting up refugee camps. However, the decision to not fully integrate Palestinian refugees into their societies was influenced by political considerations, concerns about national identity, and to maintain pressure on Israel to address the refugee issue which they created.
However the responsibility for finding a solution lies with all parties involved, including neighboring Arab countries, Israel, the Palestinians, and the international community. And the spanner in the works is it would seem the US veto power...
'Israelism': How deep do indoctrination and Israeli army glorification go?
As the film faces opposition from groups trying to cancel its screenings, its main protagonist, Simone Zimmerman, and its co-director and producer, Erin Axelman, talk to Al Jazeera
Thich Nhat Hanh was an advocate for peace and social justice
From his poem “Condemnation” (about the Vietnam war)
Whoever is listening, be my witness:
I cannot accept this war.
I never could I never will.
I must say this a thousand times before I am killed.
I am like the bird who dies for the sake of its mate,
dripping blood from its broken beak and crying out:
“Beware! Turn around and face your real enemies
— ambition, violence hatred and greed.”
How Forensic Architecture Uncovers Israeli War Crimes | Eyal Weizman talks to Ash Sarkar
It's not what you know; it's what you can prove. For years, Forensic Architecture has exposed state crimes against civilians, nature, and humanity. This week on Downstream, Ash Sarkar meets FA's director Eyal Weizman, to discuss Israel's settler colonial project, the police killing of Mark Duggan, and how the testimony of blindfolded torture victims helped construct a model of Bashar al-Assad's most notorious torture prison.
"Israel always has felt that collective punishment of the Palestinian people is in its interest...Collateral damage is the target"
~Eyal Weizman ~
Decolonizing Architecture (DAAR) is a Palestinian art and architecture collective founded in 2007. They explore the intersection of politics, architecture, and spatial interventions, particularly focusing on issues of occupation, colonization, and the built environment in Palestine. Their work involves critical research, interventions, and architectural projects that aim to challenge and subvert colonial power structures and imagine alternative futures for marginalized communities.
Thanks for post @person, however it would seem that he has been swayed a bit by anti Palestinian propaganda... I found 5 minutes into the talk then around 24 minutes in a bit concerning...
"Professor who was going to give a public talk a professor of Jewish studies who was going to talk about um the little history of the conflict there and and the history of a two-state solution and someone who was opposed to the violence that they're now in Middle East 'but it seems that there was a call out from Hamas to uh that there should be this should be disrupted right here in our neighborhood and so that was that were people were informed about this ahead of time' and they um so the police were called in and to be prepared and they decided to change the venue of where the talk was going to be given and uh in fact there were 100 people who came who to demonstrate and the way it was reported to me by people who were there there was calls for uh killing Jews and uh then it was impossible to give the talk and the people who were the speakers of the of that had to be taken out um under police escort there's a large group of police and City Police at least waiting nearby because of they were expecting that there was going to be some problems so I mean the Middle East Gaza is not just in Gaza what's happening in this International world we live in it's spilling over and the divisiveness of the Middle East is also becoming divisiveness in our communities here"...
Many people are calling for a ceasefire; some people are demanding it, and um, I think, of course, we want the killing to stop. Of course, there's another way. Of course, something else can be done. Of course, all these people should stop being killed. But can we ask for a ceasefire? Can we encourage it, not as a demand, but in such a way that the Israelis become inspired themselves, they realize this is not a good deal; there's a better way of doing it because to come down with the demand it's maybe more of the divisiveness. So, I myself would not like to be in a situation. People have asked me to sign things and stuff that more like demands, and um, that's not what I think I want to do. But of course, they should stop doing it. I have no doubt about it. I want to encourage Israel to stop, but the way that how do we do this in a way that is effective, maybe for the long term, or effective for the short term.
Sadly, he may not realise that what he said there comes straight out of the anti-Palestinian propaganda handbook. It came across as labeling anybody who shows support for the plight of the Palestinian people as Hamas sympathisers. This may not have been his intention, but it did come across that way—anybody showing support for Palestine is seen as doing Hamas's bidding, as seen in the phrase 'it seems that there was a call out from Hamas.' And then later, he goes on about how we shouldn't demand a ceasefire; we should encourage one, so Israel becomes inspired themselves. Not sure if he has been paying attention to what has been happening in Gaza and Israel's track record when it comes to disregarding any rulings made by the UN and just doing what they want with the US backing them all the way ....
And the rallies I have personally attended, as well as those I have seen elsewhere around the Western world, have always included a Jewish presence in solidarity with the Palestinian people. There were chants, with people from all different religions and backgrounds (including Jewish people) all chanting together: 'Israel! Israel! You can't hide, you're committing genocide' or 'Netanyahu, you can't hide, we charge you with genocide,' and 'From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.' However, there were definitely no calls for the killing of Jewish people or Israelis...
Apart from that, I felt he did the best he could to try and put a Buddhist spin on it, under difficult circumstances...He has definitely got it right about what's happening now will have a lasting impact...
Thanks for post @person, however it would seem that he has been swayed a bit by anti Palestinian propaganda... I found 5 minutes into the talk then around 24 minutes in a bit concerning...
"Professor who was going to give a public talk a professor of Jewish studies who was going to talk about um the little history of the conflict there and and the history of a two-state solution and someone who was opposed to the violence that they're now in Middle East 'but it seems that there was a call out from Hamas to uh that there should be this should be disrupted right here in our neighborhood and so that was that were people were informed about this ahead of time' and they um so the police were called in and to be prepared and they decided to change the venue of where the talk was going to be given and uh in fact there were 100 people who came who to demonstrate and the way it was reported to me by people who were there there was calls for uh killing Jews and uh then it was impossible to give the talk and the people who were the speakers of the of that had to be taken out um under police escort there's a large group of police and City Police at least waiting nearby because of they were expecting that there was going to be some problems so I mean the Middle East Gaza is not just in Gaza what's happening in this International world we live in it's spilling over and the divisiveness of the Middle East is also becoming divisiveness in our communities here"...
Many people are calling for a ceasefire; some people are demanding it, and um, I think, of course, we want the killing to stop. Of course, there's another way. Of course, something else can be done. Of course, all these people should stop being killed. But can we ask for a ceasefire? Can we encourage it, not as a demand, but in such a way that the Israelis become inspired themselves, they realize this is not a good deal; there's a better way of doing it because to come down with the demand it's maybe more of the divisiveness. So, I myself would not like to be in a situation. People have asked me to sign things and stuff that more like demands, and um, that's not what I think I want to do. But of course, they should stop doing it. I have no doubt about it. I want to encourage Israel to stop, but the way that how do we do this in a way that is effective, maybe for the long term, or effective for the short term.
Sadly, he may not realise that what he said there comes straight out of the anti-Palestinian propaganda handbook. It came across as labeling anybody who shows support for the plight of the Palestinian people as Hamas sympathisers. This may not have been his intention, but it did come across that way—anybody showing support for Palestine is seen as doing Hamas's bidding, as seen in the phrase 'it seems that there was a call out from Hamas.' And then later, he goes on about how we shouldn't demand a ceasefire; we should encourage one, so Israel becomes inspired themselves. Not sure if he has been paying attention to what has been happening in Gaza and Israel's track record when it comes to disregarding any rulings made by the UN and just doing what they want with the US backing them all the way ....
And the rallies I have personally attended, as well as those I have seen elsewhere around the Western world, have always included a Jewish presence in solidarity with the Palestinian people. There were chants, with people from all different religions and backgrounds (including Jewish people) all chanting together: 'Israel! Israel! You can't hide, you're committing genocide' or 'Netanyahu, you can't hide, we charge you with genocide,' and 'From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.' However, there were definitely no calls for the killing of Jewish people or Israelis...
Apart from that, I felt he did the best he could to try and put a Buddhist spin on it, under difficult circumstances...He has definitely got it right about what's happening now will have a lasting impact...
Certainly I don't have a completely comprehensive view of everything going on. The question that occurs to me is how sure are you that you're not being swayed by anti Israeli propaganda? Or at the very least missing the aspects of the pro Palestinian that put in a less flattering light?
From my perspective he was talking about the mindset we need to develop to come to a long term peace, rather than thinking of it in terms of sinners and saints.
The question that occurs to me is how sure are you that you're not being swayed by anti Israeli propaganda? Or at the very least missing the aspects of the pro Palestinian that put in a less flattering light?
@person the conflict in Gaza has gained global attention thanks to independent sources, highlighting the dire situation. I'm inclined to trust reports from Gaza itself and international aid groups, especially when mainstream Western media coverage seems biased or lacking. Many humanitarian groups are deeply concerned about the deliberate attacks on civilians, destruction of buildings, and causing catastrophic conditions in the area
What troubles me most is the consistent disregard for human rights and Palestinian lives exhibited by the Israeli government and its military. Much of this evidence is sourced directly from Israeli media, government officials, and military personnel themselves. It's as if the Israeli government inadvertently furnishes the ammunition for anti-government sentiments to thrive, with external sources merely echoing their own documented actions.
The IOF have advanced state of the art weaponry and advanced spyware technology which they are using against the Palestinian population , they have an endless supply of ammunition from their Western allies.
In the face of such imbalance, the only real weapon wielded by the Palestinian civilian population and their supporters is their voice. It's a weapon that Israel and its allies seek to silence at all costs, employing accusations of anti-Semitism to silence disagreement and keep pushing their own plans forward. I and no doubt many people feel in this unequal fight, it's crucial for Palestinian voices to be heard otherwise Israel will continue to do what it has always done...that is be a law unto itself, disregarding international law....
Thanks to ongoing Dharma practice, I maintain a peaceful mindset, even amidst humanitarian crises like the one unfolding in Gaza. However, this inner peace isn't static; it inspires me to take action and support those facing less fortunate circumstances. I just see this as part and parcel of my Dharma practice...which I guess is humanistic Buddhism...
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I think what gets to me is the narrative of good guys fighting bad guys as subtext. I'm usually the practical one and the Buddhist ideal of peace and love as a long term solution to overcoming hatred is kind of naive in the immediate context. There's the idea that actions and ideas that contract the heart are moving in the wrong direction and looking at the conflict in terms of good vs bad and coercion over persuasion constricts my heart.
Trying to encourage and create peace, love and perspective in people over agitation and conflict is also a noble pursuit and seems to be at cross purposes with an activist mindset.
I listened to a recent podcast that was pro Palestine, pro Israel, anti Hamas and anti Netanyahu. The perspective offered caught the right tone and response to my ears.
Ravi is joined by Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, a U.S. citizen from Gaza and a Middle East political analyst, for a deep dive into the Israel-Palestine conflict. Ravi and Ahmed look at the historical context of the region, including the failures of previous peace attempts and the rise of Hamas, before turning to the present day, where they reflect on the past six months of war, its impact on civilians, and what a path forward could look like.
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Yes, good guys versus bad guys is only a narrative in Palestine. In fact everyone is good in his own eyes, but in fact they are all doing bad deeds, except for the innocent victims on both sides.
@person said:
I think what gets to me is the narrative of good guys fighting bad guys as subtext. I'm usually the practical one and the Buddhist ideal of peace and love as a long term solution to overcoming hatred is kind of naive in the immediate context. There's the idea that actions and ideas that contract the heart are moving in the wrong direction and looking at the conflict in terms of good vs bad and coercion over persuasion constricts my heart.
Trying to encourage and create peace, love and perspective in people over agitation and conflict is also a noble pursuit and seems to be at cross purposes with an activist mindset.
I listened to a recent podcast that was pro Palestine, pro Israel, anti Hamas and anti Netanyahu. The perspective offered caught the right tone and response to my ears.
Ravi is joined by Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, a U.S. citizen from Gaza and a Middle East political analyst, for a deep dive into the Israel-Palestine conflict. Ravi and Ahmed look at the historical context of the region, including the failures of previous peace attempts and the rise of Hamas, before turning to the present day, where they reflect on the past six months of war, its impact on civilians, and what a path forward could look like.
Upon completing the program, Alkhatib attempted to return to Gaza via Egypt but was unable to do so. The abduction of an Israeli soldier had resulted in the closure of the Rafah border between Gaza and Egypt. Alkhatib remained in Egypt for months without being able to enter Gaza. He applied for and received political asylum in the U.S., where he finished high school at San Francisco Waldorf and went on to City College and the University of San Francisco, where he studied marketing and became interested in social entrepreneurship. He later earned a master's degree in intelligence studies at American Military University.
It would seem, like other Palestinians living in the US, Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib is well informed on what's happening in Gaza.
Interesting podcast, I found the part towards the end "Peace can be courageous" insightful, I'm in agreement with much of what he had to say about Hamas however I disagree with his stance when it comes to the pro Palestinian protests...he doesn't really offer any alternative to stopping what's happening in Gaza right now,
This debut feature film by journalist Abby Martin began while reporting in Palestine, where she was denied entry into Gaza by the Israeli government on the accusation she was a “propagandist.” So Abby connected with a team of journalists in Gaza to produce the film through the blockaded border.
It is a documentary about the historic Great March Of Return protests, which occurred every week from March 2018 until December 2019, but covers so much more.
It tells the story of Gaza past and present, showing rare archival footage that explains the history never acknowledged by mass media. You hear from victims of the ongoing massacre, including journalists, medics and the family of internationally-acclaimed paramedic, Razan al-Najjar.
At its core, ‘Gaza Fights For Freedom’ is a thorough indictment of the Israeli military for war crimes with exclusive documentary evidence and a stunning cinematic portrayal of Palestinians' heroic resistance.
The bitter struggle between Arab and Jew for control of the Holy Land has caused untold suffering in the Middle East for generations. It is often claimed that the crisis originated with Jewish emigration to Palestine and the foundation of the state of Israel. Yet the roots of the conflict are to be found much earlier – in British double-dealing during the First World War. This is a story of intrigue among rival empires; of misguided strategies; and of how conflicting promises to Arab and Jew created a legacy of bloodshed which determined the fate of the Middle East.
Cause=Britain's Colonial mentality _ ... Condition= _Making promises to the Arabs they had no intention of keeping ...Effect= Continuous unrest in the Middle East
Democracy Now
Israeli Holocaust Scholar Omer Bartov on Campus Protests, Weaponized Antisemitism, Silencing Dissent
As Biden administration and U.S. college and university administrators increasingly accuse peaceful pro-Palestinian protesters on school campuses of antisemitism, we speak with Brown University professor of Holocaust and genocide studies Omer Bartov, who visited the student Gaza solidarity encampment at UPenn alongside fellow Israeli historian Raz Segal. "There was absolutely no sign of any violence, of any antisemitism at all," says Bartov, who warns antisemitism is being used to silence speech about Israel. "There's politics, and there's prejudice. And if we don't make a distinction between the two, then what we are actually doing is enforcing a kind of silence over the policies that have been conducted by the Israeli government for a long time that ultimately culminated now in the utter destruction of Gaza.
In this compelling and thought-provoking interview, Norwegian journalist Yala Wolasmal sits down with Osama Hamdan, a leader from Hamas, to discuss his recent statements regarding the state of Israel. Hamdan shares his views in detail, explaining the reasoning behind his declaration that "there will be no Israel." This interview offers a unique insight into the perspective of Hamas on current Middle Eastern political dynamics.
Like when all political figures are interviewed, one needs a bullshit filter to decipher the truth...but it's still interesting to get a different viewpoint ...
I watched this one the other day.
Watch as David Mencer, an Israeli spokesperson, faces a barrage of hard-hitting questions from renowned journalist Yama Wolasmal in this riveting interview held in Norway. This intense session covers a range of pressing issues, putting Mencer in the spotlight as he navigates through tough inquiries and critical topics. Yama Wolasmal, known for his incisive interviewing style, doesn't hold back, challenging Mencer at every turn to reveal the truths behind the official statements.
Democracy Now
“People Could Have Died”: Police Raid UCLA Gaza Protest After Pro-Israel Mob Attacked Encampment
We get an update from the University of California, Los Angeles, where police in riot gear began dismantling a pro-Palestinian encampment early Thursday, using flashbang grenades, rubber bullets and tear gas, and arresting dozens of students. The raid came just over a day after pro-Israel counterprotesters armed with sticks, metal rods and fireworks attacked students at the encampment. The Real News Network reporter Mel Buer was on the scene during the attack. She describes seeing counterprotesters provoke students, yelling slurs and bludgeoning them with parts of the encampment’s barricade, and says the attack lasted several hours without police or security intervention. ”UCLA is complicit in violence inflicted upon protesters,” wrote the editorial board of UCLA’s campus newspaper, the Daily Bruin, the next day. Four of the paper’s student journalists were targeted and assaulted by counterprotesters while covering the protests. We speak with Shaanth Kodialam Nanguneri, one of the student journalists, who says one of their colleagues was hospitalized over the assault, while campus security officers “were nowhere to be found.” Meanwhile, UCLA’s chapter of Faculty for Justice in Palestine has called on faculty to refuse university labor Thursday in protest of the administration’s failure to protect students from what it termed “Zionist mobs.” Professor Gaye Theresa Johnson, a member of UCLA Faculty for Justice in Palestine, denounces the administration’s response to nonviolent protest and says she sees the events as part of a major sea change in the politicization of American youth. “This is a movement. It cannot be unseen. It cannot be put back in the box.”
Democracy Now
U.S. Hypocrisy Laid Bare as Biden Admin Claims ICC Can’t Prosecute Israel for War Crimes
The Biden administration is claiming the International Criminal Court has no jurisdiction to charge Israeli officials for war crimes. This comes after rumors that the ICC may be close to issuing arrest warrants for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and other Israeli officials over possible crimes in Gaza. The International Court of Justice has rejected a request by Nicaragua to order Germany to halt exporting arms to Israel, but the court declined to throw out the case. For more, we speak with human rights attorney and war crimes prosecutor Reed Brody, who says ICC charges would be a “huge” development. “Since Nuremberg, no international tribunal has issued an arrest warrant for a Western official. For decades, we’ve had this double standard where international justice has only been effective for crimes committed by leaders of developing countries or by enemies of the U.S. like Vladimir Putin,” says Brody.
This young Jewish Kiwi woman was one of the speakers...She spoke of her trip to Israel last year to visit her family members who had moved there and her experience when she spent some time staying in the West Bank...
The Jewish community in Aotearoa is only small, numbering around 5000...and each week a small group of "Jews for Palestine" attend the rallies ...They have been attending the rallies for the last 7 months...
Haaretz columnist Gideon Levy condemns Al Jazeera shutdown in Israel
Gideon Levy, a columnist at the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, has joined Al Jazeera to discuss the latest decision by Netanyahu's government to shut down Al Jazeera's operations in Israel. Gideon expresses deep disappointment at Israel's shutdown of Al Jazeera, emphasizing the loss of a vital news source on Gaza. He criticizes the decision as politically motivated, aimed at pleasing the right-wing base. Levy suggests that Netanyahu's timing may relate to diplomatic pressures from Qatar. He argues that such actions harm Israel's democratic image and reflect a government lacking long-term vision, fixated on short-term gains. Levy highlights the biased portrayal of the conflict by Israeli media, which depicts Israelis solely as victims while disregarding Gaza's suffering. He concludes by affirming Haaretz's opposition to the shutdown.
Comments
Just started watching. I listen to a lot of cross partisan panels and debates. Both Prager and Uygur are partisan shills and aren't the kind of people invited on the shows I listen to. Batya Ungar-Sargon has been on, and I recognize her, would like to hear Dave Smith more. As I listen Dave is mostly responding to and rebutting Dennis, and Batya responding and rebutting Cenk. If it were just Dave and Batya and maybe two more with similar dispositions this would be much more productive.
Gaza a ‘humanitarian hellscape’: UN chief
It's unbelievable that some people still see Israel as the victim in this conflict, portraying itself as merely defending against aggression while inflicting mass casualties on Palestinian civilians, including men, women, children, and even babies, and devastating Gaza without achieving its stated objectives of freeing hostages or eradicating Hamas.
Their latest strategy, seemingly aimed at diverting attention from their planned assault on Rafah, involves targeting the Iranian embassy in Syria to provoke a response from Iran, thereby justifying further attacks on Iran itself. This pattern of aggression doesn't fit with the idea of self-defense
Meanwhile, the ongoing killing of Palestinian civilians continues without pause, while preparations are underway for a full-scale assault on Rafah, a move that will inevitably result in the deaths of thousands more innocent people, including countless men, women, children, and babies, with weapons supplied by the United States.
It's particularly tragic because many Jewish people worldwide are undoubtedly appalled by the violence and loss of life, especially considering that some may have relatives serving in the Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF). Witnessing the destruction and loss of thousands of lives in Gaza, and hearing the term 'genocide' used to describe Israel's actions, This is likely to make those who empathise with the suffering of both Palestinians and Israelis even more anxious and afraid..
As I've mentioned before it is the innocent who suffer the most....
That's just it - most people never did. Of course Israel are being touted as the "evil" ones from day one. A large swathe of people have regularly said Jews deserve this. Yes they say Jews, not Israel. Israel and Jew are regularly interchanged as it gives people maximum target for their hatred.
Israel are up-front with their plans of attack.
Neither did the attack on Israeli civilians on October 7th. And there was a ceasefire still in place on October 6th. Israel didn't break that.
At the risk of upsetting you and others with your viewpoint, we don't really know how many of the alleged dead in Palestine are civilians. No one has made Hamas accountable for the numbers they release. Unlike Israel who have all their statistics verified independently because no one believes them. (Which is nothing new really. People still deny the Holocaust FFS).
Ya think? I've written countless responses and deleted them because no matter what Jews say, we're called "genocide supporters" "colonisers" (we're not, a quick search online at archaeological and scientific sites shows irrefutable evidence that Jews have been present in the land since 1200 BCE) and worse because we ARE Jewish. I've been doxxed along with other Australian Jews. I'm not Israeli but that doesn't matter at all to anti-Jews or "anti-Zionists"
I'm currently undergoing identity theft with the federal police involved. My bank accounts, government access, the works have all been compromised. I suffer antisemitism daily to the point where I hide my Jewishness in all forms. I'm Australian, never been to Israel but it doesn't matter. I'm judged by my heritage. A lot of my friends are Muslims, some of them are realistic about how we're both caught up in the conflict by nature of our birth. Others have told me I'm scum and Hitler should have finished the job. (Obviously I'm no longer friends with them).
I know you're posting here as a kind of therapy for your horror at the situation, I get it. It makes me extremely uncomfortable at times with some of your rhetoric, but I get it and I use those feelings as fodder for my own practise. But please don't expect all Jews who don't agree with the Israeli government to turn their back on Israel completely.
Respectfully,
Sura
Yes I guess in a way it is kind of therapeutic, but I don't write or post videos with the intention to harm others/incite violence...just information which some readers 'may' find of interest,
And I'm sorry if what I post makes you feel uncomfortable @SuraShine, but why do you continue to click on this thread, when you know that some of the contents may disturbs you?
For far too long, Israel (acknowledging that not all Jewish people see present-day Israel as their homeland) has seemingly evaded accountability for their treatment of the Palestinian people, often described as 'getting away with murder.'
In the past, only a few brave individuals (myself not included) dared to criticise Israel. Many more wished to voice concerns about the treatment of Palestinians but hesitated for fear of being labeled anti-Semitic for criticising the Israeli government. Ironically, even some Jewish people feared this label.
One has only got to look at what's happening in Germany at the moment, where German Jews are being called anti-Semites and even arrested for expressing solidarity with the Palestinian people. This illustrates the current chaotic state of the world.
The point being made is that it's always the innocent who suffer the most, as demonstrated by recent events .
You do realise that Israel won't allow independent observers into Gaza.
There are times when there is no offence intended, where a person just writes about what has been happening in the world, but some just don't like what's been written and want to shut the person up...
Again, look at what's been happening recently in German the US & UK...
Just so you know, over the years I have had friends of different ethnic backgrounds and religions, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist.
If the shoe was on the other foot, (that is, if the Palestinians had a 'government' that was treating the Israelis in a way that was cruel and unjust killing and stealing land and so forth ) I would also be speaking out about the plight of the Israeli people in the same manner...
As MLK said "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny"
I appreciate your reply, I really do. And thank you for expanding on the points the way you have, it means a lot.
I agree with some of the points you have made in this post. I wanted to address a few things for clarity's sake.
Yes I do, but the Associated Foreign Press and others have analysed, questioned, verified, rechecked etc all Israeli statistics including the original deaths from October 7th without entering the country. If they can do this then surely there's no problem verifying Hamas' Ministry of Health claims.
Because I can? It's like an itch to scratch at times. Honestly, I don't come onto this thread very often these days and like I said previously, when I find myself reacting, I use those reactions as fodder for my own practise. But since posting my previous reply, I have decided to limit my time here and on the forum in general - but I thought I at least owed you an answer. I've turned off my notifications for the forum.
The Palestinians do have a government doing that to Israel though. Hamas, who they voted in to power over Gaza in 2005 and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Both of those parties are funded by the Islamic Public of Iran and both of them are based in Qatar. The Islamic Republic of Iran funnel at least $100 million annually to Hamas and at least 700 million to Hezbollah. There have been a multitude of forced exiles of Jews from Israel/Palestine for at least a thousand years. The last one in 1917 just before the Ottoman Empire relinquished control of the area. And there have been plenty of attacks from Palestine, instigated by them to Israel since 1917. When Israel was re-established in 1948, the land the Palestinians were inhabiting stretched into Jordan and Egypt and the border into Lebanon was also further into Lebanon. These countries refused the Palestinians that land. Other countries like Syria and Iraq deemed this "avoiding the Palestinian refugee problem" Why are these countries not being held accountable as well? Egypt wouldn't even open a border to Palestinians to flee the fighting until international pressure was applied by means of financial penalties.
Now I in no way agree with the occupation of the West Bank. It was never agreed upon and Israel has no business being there. My personal belief, as a Jew and a human being, is that the original borders should be adhered to. The main argument I get against those beliefs is that in the 1967 war, Israel won and "conquered" extra land. Is it a moral or ethical argument? I don't personally think so. Yet there are many countries in Europe currently that have borders differing due to "conquers" through modern warfare. I believe that they should also be held to the same measure as Israel - that's just my POV, I know you haven't raised that and it's not a dig at you in any way.
The bottom line is - the history is a lot more complex than is being demonstrated by those in a position of power to disseminate information to the world at large. Having studied ancient history myself at a tertiary level and having a daughter doing her degree at University majoring in Israel and the Near East, I have some deeper knowledge of the region and access to textbooks that some don't. That does not make me superior in this in any way, though I admit it frustrates me no end to see how the general public are not given all the information before they make an informed choice either way. And I am certain that if I started to post on any platform, many would automatically label me as a genocide lover or other horrible label going around online.
I'm sorry this is so long. I wanted to clarify my position and why I feel the way I do. Like I said, I have disabled notifications and am going to intentionally minimise my time online so I may not see your reply straight away.
I write this coming from a position of respect for you and in the interest of understanding.
Much metta,
Sura
@SuraShine, much respect for arguing a difficult position and making your views clear.
I think no country in the world is exempt from being a host to minority populations, the Netherlands where I live is 10% Muslim these days, nearly 2 million mostly Moroccan and Turkish expats, and here it is all about tolerance and cooperation and finding the good parts of being a multicultural society.
In an ideal world, Israel’s government would also become a government for all its citizens, dealing in creating an atmosphere of tolerance and not one of hostility. It pains me to see those big concrete walls which they have erected in parts of the country, the checkpoints, the patrols with military equipment.
But I can see the Jewish people deserve to have a place which they can call home, a land which they can return to after so many years of wandering and settling in different parts of the globe. I hope they can find a way to live in peace with the Arab populations surrounding them.
Some Arab countries in the region did provide some support to Palestinian refugees, including humanitarian aid and setting up refugee camps. However, the decision to not fully integrate Palestinian refugees into their societies was influenced by political considerations, concerns about national identity, and to maintain pressure on Israel to address the refugee issue which they created.
However the responsibility for finding a solution lies with all parties involved, including neighboring Arab countries, Israel, the Palestinians, and the international community. And the spanner in the works is it would seem the US veto power...
'Israelism': How deep do indoctrination and Israeli army glorification go?
Thich Nhat Hanh was an advocate for peace and social justice
From his poem “Condemnation” (about the Vietnam war)
Whoever is listening, be my witness:
I cannot accept this war.
I never could I never will.
I must say this a thousand times before I am killed.
I am like the bird who dies for the sake of its mate,
dripping blood from its broken beak and crying out:
“Beware! Turn around and face your real enemies
— ambition, violence hatred and greed.”
Fascinating and insightful talk.
Novara Media
How Forensic Architecture Uncovers Israeli War Crimes | Eyal Weizman talks to Ash Sarkar
"Israel always has felt that collective punishment of the Palestinian people is in its interest...Collateral damage is the target"
~Eyal Weizman ~
DAAR
Gil Fronsdale gave a good talk on the war last month.
Or the audio version
https://www.audiodharma.org/talks/19955
Thanks for post @person, however it would seem that he has been swayed a bit by anti Palestinian propaganda... I found 5 minutes into the talk then around 24 minutes in a bit concerning...
Sadly, he may not realise that what he said there comes straight out of the anti-Palestinian propaganda handbook. It came across as labeling anybody who shows support for the plight of the Palestinian people as Hamas sympathisers. This may not have been his intention, but it did come across that way—anybody showing support for Palestine is seen as doing Hamas's bidding, as seen in the phrase 'it seems that there was a call out from Hamas.' And then later, he goes on about how we shouldn't demand a ceasefire; we should encourage one, so Israel becomes inspired themselves. Not sure if he has been paying attention to what has been happening in Gaza and Israel's track record when it comes to disregarding any rulings made by the UN and just doing what they want with the US backing them all the way ....
And the rallies I have personally attended, as well as those I have seen elsewhere around the Western world, have always included a Jewish presence in solidarity with the Palestinian people. There were chants, with people from all different religions and backgrounds (including Jewish people) all chanting together: 'Israel! Israel! You can't hide, you're committing genocide' or 'Netanyahu, you can't hide, we charge you with genocide,' and 'From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.' However, there were definitely no calls for the killing of Jewish people or Israelis...
Apart from that, I felt he did the best he could to try and put a Buddhist spin on it, under difficult circumstances...He has definitely got it right about what's happening now will have a lasting impact...
Double Down News...
The Video Israel REALLY Does Not Want You To See
Putting things into perspective...Short sharp and to the point...
Certainly I don't have a completely comprehensive view of everything going on. The question that occurs to me is how sure are you that you're not being swayed by anti Israeli propaganda? Or at the very least missing the aspects of the pro Palestinian that put in a less flattering light?
From my perspective he was talking about the mindset we need to develop to come to a long term peace, rather than thinking of it in terms of sinners and saints.
@person the conflict in Gaza has gained global attention thanks to independent sources, highlighting the dire situation. I'm inclined to trust reports from Gaza itself and international aid groups, especially when mainstream Western media coverage seems biased or lacking. Many humanitarian groups are deeply concerned about the deliberate attacks on civilians, destruction of buildings, and causing catastrophic conditions in the area
What troubles me most is the consistent disregard for human rights and Palestinian lives exhibited by the Israeli government and its military. Much of this evidence is sourced directly from Israeli media, government officials, and military personnel themselves. It's as if the Israeli government inadvertently furnishes the ammunition for anti-government sentiments to thrive, with external sources merely echoing their own documented actions.
The IOF have advanced state of the art weaponry and advanced spyware technology which they are using against the Palestinian population , they have an endless supply of ammunition from their Western allies.
In the face of such imbalance, the only real weapon wielded by the Palestinian civilian population and their supporters is their voice. It's a weapon that Israel and its allies seek to silence at all costs, employing accusations of anti-Semitism to silence disagreement and keep pushing their own plans forward. I and no doubt many people feel in this unequal fight, it's crucial for Palestinian voices to be heard otherwise Israel will continue to do what it has always done...that is be a law unto itself, disregarding international law....
Thanks to ongoing Dharma practice, I maintain a peaceful mindset, even amidst humanitarian crises like the one unfolding in Gaza. However, this inner peace isn't static; it inspires me to take action and support those facing less fortunate circumstances. I just see this as part and parcel of my Dharma practice...which I guess is humanistic Buddhism...
I think what gets to me is the narrative of good guys fighting bad guys as subtext. I'm usually the practical one and the Buddhist ideal of peace and love as a long term solution to overcoming hatred is kind of naive in the immediate context. There's the idea that actions and ideas that contract the heart are moving in the wrong direction and looking at the conflict in terms of good vs bad and coercion over persuasion constricts my heart.
Trying to encourage and create peace, love and perspective in people over agitation and conflict is also a noble pursuit and seems to be at cross purposes with an activist mindset.
I listened to a recent podcast that was pro Palestine, pro Israel, anti Hamas and anti Netanyahu. The perspective offered caught the right tone and response to my ears.
Yes, good guys versus bad guys is only a narrative in Palestine. In fact everyone is good in his own eyes, but in fact they are all doing bad deeds, except for the innocent victims on both sides.
Thanks @person,
It would seem, like other Palestinians living in the US, Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib is well informed on what's happening in Gaza.
Interesting podcast, I found the part towards the end "Peace can be courageous" insightful, I'm in agreement with much of what he had to say about Hamas however I disagree with his stance when it comes to the pro Palestinian protests...he doesn't really offer any alternative to stopping what's happening in Gaza right now,
Lost debate's hosts are an interesting bunch ...
Interesting 2019 documentary by Abby Martin.
Gaza Fights For Freedom
How Britain Started Planted the Seeds for the Arab-Israeli Conflict | Free Documentary History
Cause=Britain's Colonial mentality _ ... Condition= _Making promises to the Arabs they had no intention of keeping ...Effect= Continuous unrest in the Middle East
Democracy Now
Israeli Holocaust Scholar Omer Bartov on Campus Protests, Weaponized Antisemitism, Silencing Dissent
American Palestinian comedian Sammy Obeid
Norwegian journalist Yala Wolasmal Interviews Osama Hamdan Chief of Hamas foreign relations
Like when all political figures are interviewed, one needs a bullshit filter to decipher the truth...but it's still interesting to get a different viewpoint ...
I watched this one the other day.
Senator Bernie Sanders
Democracy Now
“People Could Have Died”: Police Raid UCLA Gaza Protest After Pro-Israel Mob Attacked Encampment
Katie Halper
Cops Nearly KILL Professor For Filming Them Attack Pro Palestine Student Protestors
Times change, but sadly certain people don't...
Democracy Now
U.S. Hypocrisy Laid Bare as Biden Admin Claims ICC Can’t Prosecute Israel for War Crimes
I attended another rally this afternoon...
This young Jewish Kiwi woman was one of the speakers...She spoke of her trip to Israel last year to visit her family members who had moved there and her experience when she spent some time staying in the West Bank...
The Jewish community in Aotearoa is only small, numbering around 5000...and each week a small group of "Jews for Palestine" attend the rallies ...They have been attending the rallies for the last 7 months...
Haaretz columnist Gideon Levy condemns Al Jazeera shutdown in Israel
Interesting news-documentary programme Compass
The Australian Jew dubbed traitor for speaking out against the war in Gaza | Compass | ABC In-depth