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The Other Elephant In The Room
Comments
Just started watching. I listen to a lot of cross partisan panels and debates. Both Prager and Uygur are partisan shills and aren't the kind of people invited on the shows I listen to. Batya Ungar-Sargon has been on, and I recognize her, would like to hear Dave Smith more. As I listen Dave is mostly responding to and rebutting Dennis, and Batya responding and rebutting Cenk. If it were just Dave and Batya and maybe two more with similar dispositions this would be much more productive.
Gaza a ‘humanitarian hellscape’: UN chief
It's unbelievable that some people still see Israel as the victim in this conflict, portraying itself as merely defending against aggression while inflicting mass casualties on Palestinian civilians, including men, women, children, and even babies, and devastating Gaza without achieving its stated objectives of freeing hostages or eradicating Hamas.
Their latest strategy, seemingly aimed at diverting attention from their planned assault on Rafah, involves targeting the Iranian embassy in Syria to provoke a response from Iran, thereby justifying further attacks on Iran itself. This pattern of aggression doesn't fit with the idea of self-defense
Meanwhile, the ongoing killing of Palestinian civilians continues without pause, while preparations are underway for a full-scale assault on Rafah, a move that will inevitably result in the deaths of thousands more innocent people, including countless men, women, children, and babies, with weapons supplied by the United States.
It's particularly tragic because many Jewish people worldwide are undoubtedly appalled by the violence and loss of life, especially considering that some may have relatives serving in the Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF). Witnessing the destruction and loss of thousands of lives in Gaza, and hearing the term 'genocide' used to describe Israel's actions, This is likely to make those who empathise with the suffering of both Palestinians and Israelis even more anxious and afraid..
As I've mentioned before it is the innocent who suffer the most....
That's just it - most people never did. Of course Israel are being touted as the "evil" ones from day one. A large swathe of people have regularly said Jews deserve this. Yes they say Jews, not Israel. Israel and Jew are regularly interchanged as it gives people maximum target for their hatred.
Israel are up-front with their plans of attack.
Neither did the attack on Israeli civilians on October 7th. And there was a ceasefire still in place on October 6th. Israel didn't break that.
At the risk of upsetting you and others with your viewpoint, we don't really know how many of the alleged dead in Palestine are civilians. No one has made Hamas accountable for the numbers they release. Unlike Israel who have all their statistics verified independently because no one believes them. (Which is nothing new really. People still deny the Holocaust FFS).
Ya think? I've written countless responses and deleted them because no matter what Jews say, we're called "genocide supporters" "colonisers" (we're not, a quick search online at archaeological and scientific sites shows irrefutable evidence that Jews have been present in the land since 1200 BCE) and worse because we ARE Jewish. I've been doxxed along with other Australian Jews. I'm not Israeli but that doesn't matter at all to anti-Jews or "anti-Zionists"
I'm currently undergoing identity theft with the federal police involved. My bank accounts, government access, the works have all been compromised. I suffer antisemitism daily to the point where I hide my Jewishness in all forms. I'm Australian, never been to Israel but it doesn't matter. I'm judged by my heritage. A lot of my friends are Muslims, some of them are realistic about how we're both caught up in the conflict by nature of our birth. Others have told me I'm scum and Hitler should have finished the job. (Obviously I'm no longer friends with them).
I know you're posting here as a kind of therapy for your horror at the situation, I get it. It makes me extremely uncomfortable at times with some of your rhetoric, but I get it and I use those feelings as fodder for my own practise. But please don't expect all Jews who don't agree with the Israeli government to turn their back on Israel completely.
Respectfully,
Sura
Yes I guess in a way it is kind of therapeutic, but I don't write or post videos with the intention to harm others/incite violence...just information which some readers 'may' find of interest,
And I'm sorry if what I post makes you feel uncomfortable @SuraShine, but why do you continue to click on this thread, when you know that some of the contents may disturbs you?
For far too long, Israel (acknowledging that not all Jewish people see present-day Israel as their homeland) has seemingly evaded accountability for their treatment of the Palestinian people, often described as 'getting away with murder.'
In the past, only a few brave individuals (myself not included) dared to criticise Israel. Many more wished to voice concerns about the treatment of Palestinians but hesitated for fear of being labeled anti-Semitic for criticising the Israeli government. Ironically, even some Jewish people feared this label.
One has only got to look at what's happening in Germany at the moment, where German Jews are being called anti-Semites and even arrested for expressing solidarity with the Palestinian people. This illustrates the current chaotic state of the world.
The point being made is that it's always the innocent who suffer the most, as demonstrated by recent events .
You do realise that Israel won't allow independent observers into Gaza.
There are times when there is no offence intended, where a person just writes about what has been happening in the world, but some just don't like what's been written and want to shut the person up...
Again, look at what's been happening recently in German the US & UK...
Just so you know, over the years I have had friends of different ethnic backgrounds and religions, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist.
If the shoe was on the other foot, (that is, if the Palestinians had a 'government' that was treating the Israelis in a way that was cruel and unjust killing and stealing land and so forth ) I would also be speaking out about the plight of the Israeli people in the same manner...
As MLK said "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny"
I appreciate your reply, I really do. And thank you for expanding on the points the way you have, it means a lot.
I agree with some of the points you have made in this post. I wanted to address a few things for clarity's sake.
Yes I do, but the Associated Foreign Press and others have analysed, questioned, verified, rechecked etc all Israeli statistics including the original deaths from October 7th without entering the country. If they can do this then surely there's no problem verifying Hamas' Ministry of Health claims.
Because I can? It's like an itch to scratch at times. Honestly, I don't come onto this thread very often these days and like I said previously, when I find myself reacting, I use those reactions as fodder for my own practise. But since posting my previous reply, I have decided to limit my time here and on the forum in general - but I thought I at least owed you an answer. I've turned off my notifications for the forum.
The Palestinians do have a government doing that to Israel though. Hamas, who they voted in to power over Gaza in 2005 and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Both of those parties are funded by the Islamic Public of Iran and both of them are based in Qatar. The Islamic Republic of Iran funnel at least $100 million annually to Hamas and at least 700 million to Hezbollah. There have been a multitude of forced exiles of Jews from Israel/Palestine for at least a thousand years. The last one in 1917 just before the Ottoman Empire relinquished control of the area. And there have been plenty of attacks from Palestine, instigated by them to Israel since 1917. When Israel was re-established in 1948, the land the Palestinians were inhabiting stretched into Jordan and Egypt and the border into Lebanon was also further into Lebanon. These countries refused the Palestinians that land. Other countries like Syria and Iraq deemed this "avoiding the Palestinian refugee problem" Why are these countries not being held accountable as well? Egypt wouldn't even open a border to Palestinians to flee the fighting until international pressure was applied by means of financial penalties.
Now I in no way agree with the occupation of the West Bank. It was never agreed upon and Israel has no business being there. My personal belief, as a Jew and a human being, is that the original borders should be adhered to. The main argument I get against those beliefs is that in the 1967 war, Israel won and "conquered" extra land. Is it a moral or ethical argument? I don't personally think so. Yet there are many countries in Europe currently that have borders differing due to "conquers" through modern warfare. I believe that they should also be held to the same measure as Israel - that's just my POV, I know you haven't raised that and it's not a dig at you in any way.
The bottom line is - the history is a lot more complex than is being demonstrated by those in a position of power to disseminate information to the world at large. Having studied ancient history myself at a tertiary level and having a daughter doing her degree at University majoring in Israel and the Near East, I have some deeper knowledge of the region and access to textbooks that some don't. That does not make me superior in this in any way, though I admit it frustrates me no end to see how the general public are not given all the information before they make an informed choice either way. And I am certain that if I started to post on any platform, many would automatically label me as a genocide lover or other horrible label going around online.
I'm sorry this is so long. I wanted to clarify my position and why I feel the way I do. Like I said, I have disabled notifications and am going to intentionally minimise my time online so I may not see your reply straight away.
I write this coming from a position of respect for you and in the interest of understanding.
Much metta,
Sura
@SuraShine, much respect for arguing a difficult position and making your views clear.
I think no country in the world is exempt from being a host to minority populations, the Netherlands where I live is 10% Muslim these days, nearly 2 million mostly Moroccan and Turkish expats, and here it is all about tolerance and cooperation and finding the good parts of being a multicultural society.
In an ideal world, Israel’s government would also become a government for all its citizens, dealing in creating an atmosphere of tolerance and not one of hostility. It pains me to see those big concrete walls which they have erected in parts of the country, the checkpoints, the patrols with military equipment.
But I can see the Jewish people deserve to have a place which they can call home, a land which they can return to after so many years of wandering and settling in different parts of the globe. I hope they can find a way to live in peace with the Arab populations surrounding them.
Some Arab countries in the region did provide some support to Palestinian refugees, including humanitarian aid and setting up refugee camps. However, the decision to not fully integrate Palestinian refugees into their societies was influenced by political considerations, concerns about national identity, and to maintain pressure on Israel to address the refugee issue which they created.
However the responsibility for finding a solution lies with all parties involved, including neighboring Arab countries, Israel, the Palestinians, and the international community. And the spanner in the works is it would seem the US veto power...
'Israelism': How deep do indoctrination and Israeli army glorification go?
Thich Nhat Hanh was an advocate for peace and social justice
From his poem “Condemnation” (about the Vietnam war)
Whoever is listening, be my witness:
I cannot accept this war.
I never could I never will.
I must say this a thousand times before I am killed.
I am like the bird who dies for the sake of its mate,
dripping blood from its broken beak and crying out:
“Beware! Turn around and face your real enemies
— ambition, violence hatred and greed.”
Fascinating and insightful talk.
Novara Media
How Forensic Architecture Uncovers Israeli War Crimes | Eyal Weizman talks to Ash Sarkar
"Israel always has felt that collective punishment of the Palestinian people is in its interest...Collateral damage is the target"
~Eyal Weizman ~
DAAR
Gil Fronsdale gave a good talk on the war last month.
Or the audio version
https://www.audiodharma.org/talks/19955
Thanks for post @person, however it would seem that he has been swayed a bit by anti Palestinian propaganda... I found 5 minutes into the talk then around 24 minutes in a bit concerning...
Sadly, he may not realise that what he said there comes straight out of the anti-Palestinian propaganda handbook. It came across as labeling anybody who shows support for the plight of the Palestinian people as Hamas sympathisers. This may not have been his intention, but it did come across that way—anybody showing support for Palestine is seen as doing Hamas's bidding, as seen in the phrase 'it seems that there was a call out from Hamas.' And then later, he goes on about how we shouldn't demand a ceasefire; we should encourage one, so Israel becomes inspired themselves. Not sure if he has been paying attention to what has been happening in Gaza and Israel's track record when it comes to disregarding any rulings made by the UN and just doing what they want with the US backing them all the way ....
And the rallies I have personally attended, as well as those I have seen elsewhere around the Western world, have always included a Jewish presence in solidarity with the Palestinian people. There were chants, with people from all different religions and backgrounds (including Jewish people) all chanting together: 'Israel! Israel! You can't hide, you're committing genocide' or 'Netanyahu, you can't hide, we charge you with genocide,' and 'From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.' However, there were definitely no calls for the killing of Jewish people or Israelis...
Apart from that, I felt he did the best he could to try and put a Buddhist spin on it, under difficult circumstances...He has definitely got it right about what's happening now will have a lasting impact...
Double Down News...
The Video Israel REALLY Does Not Want You To See
Putting things into perspective...Short sharp and to the point...
Certainly I don't have a completely comprehensive view of everything going on. The question that occurs to me is how sure are you that you're not being swayed by anti Israeli propaganda? Or at the very least missing the aspects of the pro Palestinian that put in a less flattering light?
From my perspective he was talking about the mindset we need to develop to come to a long term peace, rather than thinking of it in terms of sinners and saints.
@person the conflict in Gaza has gained global attention thanks to independent sources, highlighting the dire situation. I'm inclined to trust reports from Gaza itself and international aid groups, especially when mainstream Western media coverage seems biased or lacking. Many humanitarian groups are deeply concerned about the deliberate attacks on civilians, destruction of buildings, and causing catastrophic conditions in the area
What troubles me most is the consistent disregard for human rights and Palestinian lives exhibited by the Israeli government and its military. Much of this evidence is sourced directly from Israeli media, government officials, and military personnel themselves. It's as if the Israeli government inadvertently furnishes the ammunition for anti-government sentiments to thrive, with external sources merely echoing their own documented actions.
The IOF have advanced state of the art weaponry and advanced spyware technology which they are using against the Palestinian population , they have an endless supply of ammunition from their Western allies.
In the face of such imbalance, the only real weapon wielded by the Palestinian civilian population and their supporters is their voice. It's a weapon that Israel and its allies seek to silence at all costs, employing accusations of anti-Semitism to silence disagreement and keep pushing their own plans forward. I and no doubt many people feel in this unequal fight, it's crucial for Palestinian voices to be heard otherwise Israel will continue to do what it has always done...that is be a law unto itself, disregarding international law....
Thanks to ongoing Dharma practice, I maintain a peaceful mindset, even amidst humanitarian crises like the one unfolding in Gaza. However, this inner peace isn't static; it inspires me to take action and support those facing less fortunate circumstances. I just see this as part and parcel of my Dharma practice...which I guess is humanistic Buddhism...
I think what gets to me is the narrative of good guys fighting bad guys as subtext. I'm usually the practical one and the Buddhist ideal of peace and love as a long term solution to overcoming hatred is kind of naive in the immediate context. There's the idea that actions and ideas that contract the heart are moving in the wrong direction and looking at the conflict in terms of good vs bad and coercion over persuasion constricts my heart.
Trying to encourage and create peace, love and perspective in people over agitation and conflict is also a noble pursuit and seems to be at cross purposes with an activist mindset.
I listened to a recent podcast that was pro Palestine, pro Israel, anti Hamas and anti Netanyahu. The perspective offered caught the right tone and response to my ears.
Yes, good guys versus bad guys is only a narrative in Palestine. In fact everyone is good in his own eyes, but in fact they are all doing bad deeds, except for the innocent victims on both sides.
Thanks @person,
It would seem, like other Palestinians living in the US, Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib is well informed on what's happening in Gaza.
Interesting podcast, I found the part towards the end "Peace can be courageous" insightful, I'm in agreement with much of what he had to say about Hamas however I disagree with his stance when it comes to the pro Palestinian protests...he doesn't really offer any alternative to stopping what's happening in Gaza right now,
Lost debate's hosts are an interesting bunch ...
Interesting 2019 documentary by Abby Martin.
Gaza Fights For Freedom
How Britain Started Planted the Seeds for the Arab-Israeli Conflict | Free Documentary History
Cause=Britain's Colonial mentality _ ... Condition= _Making promises to the Arabs they had no intention of keeping ...Effect= Continuous unrest in the Middle East
Democracy Now
Israeli Holocaust Scholar Omer Bartov on Campus Protests, Weaponized Antisemitism, Silencing Dissent
American Palestinian comedian Sammy Obeid
Norwegian journalist Yala Wolasmal Interviews Osama Hamdan Chief of Hamas foreign relations
Like when all political figures are interviewed, one needs a bullshit filter to decipher the truth...but it's still interesting to get a different viewpoint ...
I watched this one the other day.
Senator Bernie Sanders
Democracy Now
“People Could Have Died”: Police Raid UCLA Gaza Protest After Pro-Israel Mob Attacked Encampment
Katie Halper
Cops Nearly KILL Professor For Filming Them Attack Pro Palestine Student Protestors
Times change, but sadly certain people don't...
Democracy Now
U.S. Hypocrisy Laid Bare as Biden Admin Claims ICC Can’t Prosecute Israel for War Crimes
I attended another rally this afternoon...
This young Jewish Kiwi woman was one of the speakers...She spoke of her trip to Israel last year to visit her family members who had moved there and her experience when she spent some time staying in the West Bank...
The Jewish community in Aotearoa is only small, numbering around 5000...and each week a small group of "Jews for Palestine" attend the rallies ...They have been attending the rallies for the last 7 months...
Haaretz columnist Gideon Levy condemns Al Jazeera shutdown in Israel
Interesting news-documentary programme Compass
The Australian Jew dubbed traitor for speaking out against the war in Gaza | Compass | ABC In-depth
Seems the Israeli army is going to go ahead with clearing Rafah, they’ve announced a start date to the operation and a goal of completely evacuating the town. No idea what they are planning to do with the million-plus inhabitants.
Yes this is real evil at work and on display for all the civilised world to see...
Israel (thanks to Netanyahu and his government policies ) is fast becoming a pariah state...if not already one...
I really feel for the Israelis who want nothing to do with Netanyahu and his cronies ...
It's even harder to imagine the fear that is felt by the million plus innocent and terrified men, women and children in Rafah right now...my heart goes out to all of them...
The US could have prevented all this....but instead they give Israel more weapons...
Face The Nation
Jordan's Queen Rania al Abdullah says U.S. is seen as "enabler" of Israel
She makes some very interesting and well thought out points...
Al Jazeera English
‘No red lines’ for Israeli military in war on the Gaza Strip: Analyst
Katie Halper
Israel's BRUTAL War On Gaza's Doctors
Breaking Points
Doctor From Gaza Explains Dark Reality Inside Hospitals
Owen Jones
Biden PANICS Over Israel's Genocide
Declassified UK
Grant Shapps sent 200 spy flights over Gaza, hides footage from ICC | Matt Kennard investigates
I came across this YouTube channel in my feed...A couple of young Israelis discussing what is happening in Israeli society...Interesting....
The Hebrew Canaanite
Elik and Alon Went to an Anti-Genocide Protest in the Center of Tel Aviv
Abby Martin Calls Out Israeli Spy on Piers Morgan
Full Interview on Piers Morgan Uncensored
I was trying to work out where I had seen this guy Mosab Hasan Yousef before and then it came to me...
He's a real nut job....
Cornel West - Student Demonstration at Edinburgh Gaza Genocide Emergency Committee
Breaking Points
EXCLUSIVE: UN Genocide Official Responds To Biden Smear
....................................................................................................................
From the Israeli Human Rights Organisation B'TSelem
Manufacturing Famine
Dawn News English
Palestinian Flag “Flies High And Proud”: Envoy To UN
More on the TENTH EMERGENCY SPECIAL SESSION,
49TH & 50TH MEETINGS (AM & PM)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/11/leaflet-families-rafah-israel-assault-gaza-palestinians-biden
It would seem Israel are a law unto themselves 😢
Inside Story
Al Jazeera Banned in Israel
Yes...It has been since it was founded....
Yesterday afternoon I attended another solidarity rally "In Remembrance of the Nakba"
Israeli Kiwi woman speaker
Young Palestinian Kiwi woman speaker
There was also an elderly Palestinian Kiwi man who spoke. He was a child in 1948 living with his parents in the Arab Quarter of Jerusalem when the Nakba happened, he spoke of his family having to flee their home and how they managed to get to Beirut.
He has been living in Aotearoa since the early 1980s..
Attending these rallies have become part of my daily Dharma practice, to stand in solidarity with those who want the killing of innocent men, women, children and babies to stop and for Palestinian self determination.
Katie Halper
Abuse which has been happening for the last 75 years...Hmm and CNN has only now become aware of this....
Israeli whistleblowers detail abuse of Palestinians in shadowy detention center
Sinn Féin ("We Ourselves")
Belfast's International Wall becomes the Palestinian Wall