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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited June 9
@person said:
I'd say good also includes the will to protect the vulnerable. This topic comes up in D&D threads from time to time.
You’re not wrong, I could easily imagine raiding goblins as xenophobic throatcutters, driven by a religious devotion to a Lower Planar power. And in that case a crew of murder hobo’s might be exactly what you need to clear some space for a pressurised human community.
But the D&D world is not exactly primitive, there are pretty sophisticated cities and multicultural melting pots like Waterdeep. In part it is a setting for culturally modern humans to play in, a post-medieval world where the European Enlightenment and subsequent Industrial Revolution never happened, and a lot of the more intelligent people are absorbed in the magical arts.
Certainly there is a question what morality should look like, properly role-played within a D&D world. It is a more complex world, and look how much trouble we have in this one. But for example importing principles of law like private property into a game is a lot of trouble.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@person said:
I'd say good also includes the will to protect the vulnerable. This topic comes up in D&D threads from time to time.
You’re not wrong, I could easily imagine raiding goblins as xenophobic throatcutters, driven by a religious devotion to a Lower Planar power. And in that case a crew of murder hobo’s might be exactly what you need to clear some space for a pressurised human community.
But the D&D world is not exactly primitive, there are pretty sophisticated cities and multicultural melting pots like Waterdeep. In part it is a setting for culturally modern humans to play in, a post-medieval world where the European Enlightenment and subsequent Industrial Revolution never happened, and a lot of the more intelligent people are absorbed in the magical arts.
>
Large cities tend to keep areas around them somewhat patrolled. The two worlds I've spent the most time playing in Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance have both experienced pretty devastating, society upending events in their not so distant past. They're structured to be less civilized in most of the world.
Certainly there is a question what morality should look like, properly role-played within a D&D world. It is a more complex world, and look how much trouble we have in this one. But for example importing principles of law like private property into a game is a lot of trouble.
Are you talking about trying to make the game world more realistic, what they call verisimilitude? Like sometimes people will argue that certain rule mechanics won't work because of physics. Or want to "citizens arrest" someone and put them through a modern legal system, which doesn't really exist in game. I think that sort of thing in my experience is dealt with like, "its just a game, no need to perfectly simulate a complete legal code." Have fun, for most people typing up contracts for deed or keeping track of all your arrows and food isn't that much fun. If your group is a bunch of lawyers or accountants who do like that sort of thing though, knock yourself out, its very adaptable like that.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@person said:
Or want to "citizens arrest" someone and put them through a modern legal system, which doesn't really exist in game. I think that sort of thing in my experience is dealt with like, "it’s just a game, no need to perfectly simulate a complete legal code."
True, but it’s somewhat necessary to examine the role of the City Watch or the local Sheriff in the society the players operate in. You want to know what you’re going to get put into gaol for, which might range from public drunkenness to injuring a citizen.
If you want to take a leaf from history, there were judges and city guards in the time of King Henry II so around 1200 AD who decided cases based on a national law laid down by judges in London. So a lot of modern law got started in medieval times, and that would influence character behaviour.
I recall some parts of the Dark Sun campaign setting which was pretty innovative in laying down customs for people to play with. It was kinda cool.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited June 9
“Psychoanalysis does not lead to understanding or insight. Instead, analysis gives multiple views on problems, leading to a thousand views where in fact only one problem exists…”
— Osho
Hmmm. Perhaps that is what I am doing in this topic.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited June 18
A cool game mechanic here, I’ve always liked the Zelda games, and Nintendo’s approach.
Although there is nothing to be learnt here pertaining to the spiritual path, I find myself intrigued and a little excited. Somehow it stirs the passions, and I would like to know why it kindles this energy in me.
Just to look a little more deeply, I find it interesting that it is a female lead character, doing puzzley things by creating echoes of items in the game. It seems to be almost entirely non-combat. Yet there is still an element of strategy, puzzle and victory. It’s brilliant game design.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@Jeroen said:
A cool game mechanic here, I’ve always liked the Zelda games, and Nintendo’s approach.
Although there is nothing to be learnt here pertaining to the spiritual path, I find myself intrigued and a little excited. Somehow it stirs the passions, and I would like to know why it kindles this energy in me.
Just to look a little more deeply, I find it interesting that it is a female lead character, doing puzzley things by creating echoes of items in the game. It seems to be almost entirely non-combat. Yet there is still an element of strategy, puzzle and victory. It’s brilliant game design.
If I can be a bit direct. I feel like you have this analytical side of your disposition that the spiritual world you grew up in didn't really celebrate, the emphasis is more on the yin side of things. Then your forays into that aspect of life led to negative outcomes and that has led you to try to deny or suppress that aspect of yourself. I think you need to look for healthy, spiritually aligned ways to express this longing. For example there are people with psychological backgrounds who use games as a therapeutic method for healing and development of others. I remember a story of someone who made a game to help get over their grief at losing a child and it gained a large following from other people it helped.
But I'm not sure we're really on the same path or looking for the same outcomes. So this may be just me projecting my psychology and interest onto you.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@person said:
If I can be a bit direct. I feel like you have this analytical side of your disposition that the spiritual world you grew up in didn't really celebrate, the emphasis is more on the yin side of things.
Certainly true, and that is a valuable insight for which I thank you. Probably the most deeply I went into my analytical side was during schooling, when I studied Physics and Mathematics at the top level in high school and Mechanical Engineering in University. This accumulated knowledge came back during the game design and development, where there are strong aspects of ‘modelling the world’ which engineering has as well.
Then your forays into that aspect of life led to negative outcomes and that has led you to try to deny or suppress that aspect of yourself.
I don’t think this is true though. For 13 years after Uni I was a highly successful triple-A game software developer, architect and designer and I made a living and a significant amount of money from it. The breakdown you could call a negative outcome. During recovery I chose to return to my roots and resume a more spiritual orientation, also taking in Buddhism for 12 years.
It doesn’t feel to me like I am trying to ‘deny or suppress’ either the analytical engineering side or the games design side of my past, I am merely choosing to reframe them from a spiritual perspective. I’m acknowledging that neither is potentially as healthy as they appear, the analysis is a ‘destructive dry scientific examining method’ and the game design is an ‘entertainer’.
I think you need to look for healthy, spiritually aligned ways to express this longing. For example there are people with psychological backgrounds who use games as a therapeutic method for healing and development of others.
The thing is, this longing for games I am interested in because it energises and motivates me. I watch a video like this Nintendo one and I think “oh wow, that’s cool, look at those awesome ideas”. It literally sparks something inside me, perhaps some dopamine echo.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Hmm. A quick note, victory is a result of rules. In ordinary play there is no such thing, but as soon as play becomes a game by the addition of rules, there is also the idea of victory and loss.
This may well be one of the earliest encounters of winning and losing in a human life. Victory means demonstrating that you are the best, that your understanding and execution are superior. It improves your standing among your peers in the social order.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@Jeroen said:
It doesn’t feel to me like I am trying to ‘deny or suppress’ either the analytical engineering side or the games design side of my past, I am merely choosing to reframe them from a spiritual perspective. I’m acknowledging that neither is potentially as healthy as they appear, the analysis is a ‘destructive dry scientific examining method’ and the game design is an ‘entertainer’.
To me this seems like a pretty negative reframing and not necessarily spiritual. There is the technique of looking at the negative aspects of unhealthy desires to reduce cravings. Like bodily fluids or corpses for physical attraction.
I think where I come from is that people have a varying array of innate dispositions, such as introversion/extroversion. Rather than an extrovert framing their disposition in a negative light to help them become more spiritually introspective they'd be better off finding spiritually and meaningful ways of being extroverted as a path. Such as connecting with dharma groups, doing outreach, that sort of thing.
I think you need to look for healthy, spiritually aligned ways to express this longing. For example there are people with psychological backgrounds who use games as a therapeutic method for healing and development of others.
The thing is, this longing for games I am interested in because it energises and motivates me. I watch a video like this Nintendo one and I think “oh wow, that’s cool, look at those awesome ideas”. It literally sparks something inside me, perhaps some dopamine echo.
Which is what my point here is about. Rather than trying to not be analytical, embrace that aspect of yourself and find a healthy, spiritually minded outlet for it. Not for the past but for the present and future.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited June 19
@person said:
Rather than trying to not be analytical, embrace that aspect of yourself and find a healthy, spiritually minded outlet for it. Not for the past but for the present and future.
Perhaps it is futile to try and analyse where these impulses come from, it is after all another mind based activity which stirs things up. I may be better off just trying to meditate, and drop these base enthusiasms as temporary flights of fancy.
Rather like ‘The Monk’ in this other thread, I have given my life another turning and am coping with leftover impulses. All well and good, I don’t have to give them attention.
I think at base this has to do with manipulating reality, some games make this easy. It’s a childhood dream, really, which we have to let go of. Crafting, pottery, gardening, home decorating is as close as we come.
Our attempts at re-ordering reality are a straightforward definition of suffering's cause, our ego's storyline, our identity's tribal membership, and the very dream that the Buddha exhorted his disciples to awaken from.
It is not uncommon for analytical analysis when remaining passively observative and essentially inactive in any direct challenging of the processes by which the dream is maintained, to be more of a sleeping aid than an alarm clock.
Simply watching those mechanisms in play that continue the status quo of our own ignorance, without some countering to that momentum, is little more than a spectator's view and the support of our own continuing spiritual entropy.
What difference do you think might be required in evolving from a spectator to a participant, in an actual decommissioning of one's own dream productions?
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@Jeroen said:
Hmm. A quick note, victory is a result of rules. In ordinary play there is no such thing, but as soon as play becomes a game by the addition of rules, there is also the idea of victory and loss.
This may well be one of the earliest encounters of winning and losing in a human life. Victory means demonstrating that you are the best, that your understanding and execution are superior. It improves your standing among your peers in the social order.
Perhaps you are talking in more nuance than I am picking up. I'm not sure what play without rules would even look like, tea parties have rules (be polite, pretend its real), running through a sprinkler has rules (one at a time, share the space). When young kids play they'll make up all kinds of rules on the spot for how the world their imagining works. Structure gives things meaning and purpose, a totally open and unstructured world lacks shape and direction.
So I think you're probably talking about some sort of formalized rule set like for Basketball or Settlers of Catan. Even then the sort of attitude you talk about doesn't exist in the game, it exists in the people playing the game. Perhaps the attitudes you talk about are more of a natural reaction people would develop and things like good sportsmanship or playing for the love of the game rather than winning are social skills that need to be taught? I guess I was taught them at a young age and as such I don't really see the domineering/superiority mindset as being inherent to the game.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@person said:
I'm not sure what play without rules would even look like, tea parties have rules (be polite, pretend its real), running through a sprinkler has rules (one at a time, share the space). When young kids play they'll make up all kinds of rules
I recall times when I played as a young child pretty much without rules. I don’t mean the kind of social cues that you seem to see as rules, I mean a more formalised set of rules such as those around playing with marbles or tag. Something halfway between freeform and a boardgame.
I guess I was taught them at a young age and as such I don't really see the domineering/superiority mindset as being inherent to the game.
There you go. I wasn’t really taught much of anything when young, I was an only child and my parents believed in letting me evolve on my own.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited June 20
@how said:
What difference do you think might be required in evolving from a spectator to a participant, in an actual decommissioning of one's own dream productions?
I think I might take as an example the Asubha meditation, which also seeks to change the paradigm of something usually seen as attractive, the body, and introduce contemplation of the constituents of the body when it is breaking down and disgusting.
If you consider the negative constituents of a game at the point where the initial fascination of gaming has run its course and it has captured another convert to the treadmill, then it becomes clear.
The results of gaming to excess, staring in fascination at a screen all night long
The build-up of artificial responses in brain and body, reflex actions programmed in
The bringing dreams into perceived reality and its effect on delusion of the mind
The depictions of violence and combat as being the most common challenge
The endless treadmills for meaningless rewards
There are a lot of negative effects of games which aren’t marketed in the same way as the more positive aspects, but once you have them clear in your mind you start to see them in different places. In this thread I’ve placed a number of this kind of posts, which are my attempt to bring to mind the sinews and slime of games.
It has everything to do with disenchantment — with realising that what games dangle in front of you as a reward is little more than sociological and mythological convention, a thin selection of noughts and ones making up a digital asset of something that has a much richer appearance in your mind. Ultimately you realise there isn’t anything of value in nearly-all games. I added the ‘nearly all’ as a nod to @person’s Dungeons and Dragons game nights.
You may have to revisit this place multiple times, when some clever piece of game marketing presents you with another dream to visit and tries to persuade you to rejoin the herd, before you become clear again on the true nature of games. The being can see this is right, but it takes time to let it sink into the lower reaches of mind.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
It occurs to me…
Heart Sutra
Shariputra, all dharmas are empty of characteristics. They are not produced. Not destroyed, not defiled, not pure, and they neither increase nor diminish.
Therefore, in emptiness there is no form, feeling, cognition, formation, or consciousness; no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, or mind; no sights, sounds, smells, tastes, objects of touch, or dharmas; no field of the eyes, up to and including no field of mind-consciousness; and no ignorance or ending of ignorance, up to and including no old age and death or ending of old age and death. There is no suffering, no accumulating, no extinction, no way, and no understanding and no attaining.
Because nothing is attained, the Bodhisattva, through reliance on prajna paramita, is unimpeded in his mind. Because there is no impediment, he is not afraid, and he leaves distorted dream-thinking far behind. Ultimately Nirvana!
If all dharmas are empty of characteristics, then all games must be equally so.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@Jeroen said: It has everything to do with disenchantment — with realising that what games dangle in front of you as a reward is little more than sociological and mythological convention, a thin selection of noughts and ones making up a digital asset of something that has a much richer appearance in your mind. Ultimately you realise there isn’t anything of value in nearly-all games. I added the ‘nearly all’ as a nod to @person’s Dungeons and Dragons game nights.
Understanding what there is of value in games is therefore key. I think it can be broken down into five categories, as follows:
Entertainment: games are an entertainment, it passes the time and keeps the mind busy
Stories: games tell stories, with all the usual elements of myth and character
Game mechanics: games teach you resource management, precision, trading pieces, etc.
Confidence: games teach you confidence and competence, allowing you to practice for life
Social interaction: games can teach you about social interaction, theater, play
Once these areas lose their hold on you, you may find yourself losing interest rapidly. There are other entertainments, other and better ways of telling stories. Confidence you may find you have enough of. Game mechanics is a very wide area and ultimately devolves into numerical puzzles, and social interaction through games can stay fresh for a long time.
So when I say there isn’t anything of value, I mean in an ultimate sense. You know what they say about the Dhamma — that it is good in the beginning, good in the middle and good at the end. For games there is a slightly different perspective, that games are good for a beginning player, stay fun for a long time, but ultimately you reach a point of being done with them (or you get totally wrapped up in addiction).
That point in the end, when you begin to see through the illusions to the little puzzles the game is made up of, that is where you become disenchanted. The puzzles ultimately have no value to you.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
That point in the end, when you begin to see through the illusions to the little puzzles the game is made up of, that is where you become disenchanted. The puzzles ultimately have no value to you.
I recognize this point in playing certain games where the disenchantment comes in. I still find games in general stimulating and interesting. Its all the addictive, engrossing elements that have been introduced through computer games that I've become disenchanted with overall.
but ultimately you reach a point of being done with them (or you get totally wrapped up in addiction).
This kind of dichotomy hasn't really been where I've found myself. In my experience it doesn't seem like it has to be one or the other, a healthy balance can be found. As a sort of general life philosophy I think the healthy balance model is ultimately destined to failure, even though it might last a whole life, and that renunciation and cessation are the solution to samsara. I remember thinking early in my spiritual journey thinking something along these lines, that a healthy, functional life can't last, its a lot of effort to sustain it and attachment to it will incentivize one to commit negative actions.
Where I am now is that after years of contemplating a monastic life I realize that I'm not going to take that plunge and that a worldly "healthy balance" life where I also make Dharma efforts is more appropriate for me. I don't have to pretend like I can't engage in certain things and feel more open to experimentation and connection in a moderated, careful way. And yes, there are dangers, but there are social and cultural skills that can be learned to help one navigate the choppy waters. Like sportsmanship and love of the game over winning around games mentioned above.
A good parallel from my own life is that of intoxicating substances. I went through a period of several years in my youth of drinking and drugs. Had some good times but didn't like where it led me and I became disenchanted with it. Now, I occasionally find myself around people who are drinking and having a good time of it, I feel no compulsion to engage. I also hold no judgement or ill will towards them, the substance or the act. Over the years I've been prescribed some heavy pain meds and have a few times took them more recreationally and the distaste has rearisen, I have no desire to try again. With the increasing legalization of marijuana in the US I'm tempted to try that again, but I imagine the results will be similar, the downsides outweigh the high.
Thinking on this and my attitude towards those who do partake, I think there is an important psychological difference between disenchantment and aversion to a thing. Perhaps that distinction is something to contemplate around letting go of games?
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
As long as it feels wholesome and beneficial to you, it should be fine to continue, @person. I think that should be the test. Distaste arising like it did for you over large-scale AAA games is an obvious pointer to think more deeply about it.
If you’re careful about things like D&D playing and bring in some wisdom about how you play, and keep it light and non-serious, then I don’t see a problem. Of course associating with the wise is best, if you could find a table with suitable players and DM.
Disenchantment for me turns about the disappointment of the enthusiastic impulse. Enthusiasm crops up when you feel you’ve found something good, a little luminous glow that comes along. To then realise that it wasn’t good after all, that’s disenchantment.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@Jeroen said:
Disenchantment for me turns about the disappointment of the enthusiastic impulse. Enthusiasm crops up when you feel you’ve found something good, a little luminous glow that comes along. To then realise that it wasn’t good after all, that’s disenchantment.
I agree. This is the whole of samsara and when dukkha is broken down into 3 types or levels this kind of unreliability and dissatisfaction dips into the 3rd level according to my understanding. The pleasant things of the world all have this seed of dissatisfaction and are ultimately unreliable. That is different than saying all is misery and life holds no pleasure though. I think like I've said in various forms previously that having to live in the world while renouncing pleasant things entirely offers a life with all of the effort and difficulty of a renunciate life with little of the reward of peace and bliss.
If you’re careful about things like D&D playing and bring in some wisdom about how you play, and keep it light and non-serious, then I don’t see a problem. Of course associating with the wise is best, if you could find a table with suitable players and DM.
What I've found so far is that yes, the people you play with matters a lot. But it is also very constructive and beneficial to my understanding and appreciation of others to associate with the less wise and virtuous, in a titrated way, too.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
I’ve been watching some video’s of the Game Quitters YouTube channel, and reading some threads on the r/StopGaming Reddits; it is interesting what kind of people have problems with their gaming. But it made me realise I’m not really in the same category as the people who can’t control their gaming habits, the real gaming addicts.
For me, gaming was not a waste of time, it was a profession. I played the games I enjoyed, but also to do research. I got good at game analysis, not just to play better, but to build new games. You can make a very good living making games. And even during my worst World of Warcraft moments, it never significantly impacted my work, eating, sleeping, hygiene and so on. It just ate up all my spare time.
But my time with Buddhism and the return to Osho have made me realise there are better ways to spend your life. And it is your life you are spending, not just your time. Games are linked to the emptiness of materialism, creating desire, status, progression, logic… And the spiritual path is a better way to live, making a way to gratitude, love and kindness. Games ended up kind of falling away, together with television and fiction books. After all, I haven’t played a AAA game in twelve years.
So with this came the realisation that I didn’t need to comb out every gaming or games design impulse from my brain, or totally reduce the enthusiasm to a palmyra stump (as the sutras say). Gaming produces in me a kind of fixation, a fascination with the screen. If I look at the last of my gaming dreams, it showed that these screens were largely non-beneficial, an illusion, a deception.
If I compare these things to my life the last ten years, I have found more wisdom, I have started realising one shouldn’t take games and indeed life seriously. That ultimately getting caught up in games is to take them seriously, to believe they can teach something important while in fact all they have to offer is illusion and dream.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Perhaps another place for analysis is the distinction between your feelings and inclinations towards games and the games themselves? I remember a few times talking to people about long game sessions and them saying they couldn't understand how I could spend that much time on it. They themselves weren't even attracted to games. In that craving interaction how much of it is the individual and how much of it is the game itself? Those individuals who weren't attracted to games weren't free from craving, they were attracted to other things. So is the fundamental issue broadly games or craving?
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
The instinct to play is universal, I think, it is a childhood impulse to practice on the world. I believe few people do not enjoy an occasional hour-long game of Settlers of Cataan or Ticket to Ride or Texas Hold ‘Em poker. Whether they can also enjoy a five-hour evening of D&D is a more variable proposition — some will, some won’t. I think for the vast majority of people it is innocent.
But I think video games are more problematic. Most massively-multiplayer online role playing games are built to be highly addictive time sinks which keep you engaged in grinding quests for days and weeks. Team shooters like Counter Strike or Overwatch 2 are made to get you to hone your skills to a fine edge, spending many hours in social groups in limited environments. A triple-A open world RPG like Fallout 3 appeals to the completist single player.
All of these kinds of games have their own audiences, their own hooks, their own conventions. They are all trying to create the most appealing combination within their niche, hoping for a breakout hit like Baldurs Gate 3. And so by definition they are searching for market tent-poles, things that suck in large numbers of players for as long as possible.
It’s an industry which searches for the most desired dreams. So in a way it is the games which are intentionally made to be objects of craving. For a Buddhist, it is an unhealthy hobby to engage with. The answers to craving are within, not outside in a games console.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited June 22
Some how I don't think its come up in this long thread, the Buddha's recommendation for monks around games, plays, other distractions. So I went to look it up and found an interesting VICE article talking with some Thai monks about the impact and ethics of video games in their world.
Buddha's advice.
And then there are certain respected samanas and brahmanas who, living on the food offered out of faith (in kamma and its results), are given to watching (entertainments) that is a stumbling block to the attainment of morality. And what are such entertainments? They are: dancing, singing., music, shows, recitations, hand-clapping, brass-instrument-playing, drum-playing, art exhibitions, playing with an Iron ball, bamboo raising games, rituals of washing the bones of the dead, elephant-fights, horse-fights, buffalo-fights, bull-fights, goat-fights, sheep-fights, cock fights, quail-fights, fighting with quarter-staffs, boxing, wrestling, military tattoos, military reviews, route marches and troop-movements. Samana Gotama abstains from watching (entertainments) which is a stumbling block to the attainment of morality. Bhikkhus! A worldling might praise the Tathagata in this manner.
And then there are certain respected samanas and brahmanas who, living on the food offered out of faith (in Kamma and its results), are given to gambling (and taking part in sports and games) that weakens one's vigilance (in the practice of morality). And what are such sports and games? They are: playing chess on eight-squared or ten-squared boards; playing imaginary chess using the sky as a chess-board; playing chess on moon-shaped chess boards; flipping cowries with thumb and finger; throwing dice; playing tipcat; playing with brush and paints; playing marbles; playing at whistling with bided leaves; playing with miniature ploughs; acrobatics; turning palm-leaf wheels; measuring with toy-baskets made of leaves, playing with miniature chariots; playing with small bows and arrows; alphabetical riddles; mind-reading and simulating physical defects. Samana Gotama abstains from gambling (and taking part in such sports and games) that weakens one's vigilance (in the practice of morality). A worldling, bhikkhus, might praise the Tathagata in this manner.
And then there are certain respected samanas and brahmanas who, living on the food offered out of faith (in kamma and its results), are given to using high and luxurious beds and their furnishings. And what are they? They are: high couches; divans raised on sculptured legs; long-fleeced carpets; woolen coverlets with quaint (geometrical) designs; white woolen coverlets; woolen coverlets with floral designs; mattresses stuffed with cotton; woolen coverlets with pictorial designs; woolen coverlets with fringes on one or both sides; gold-brocaded coverlets; silk coverlets; large carpets (wide enough for sixteen dancing girls to dance on); saddle cloth and trappings for elephants and horses; upholstery for carriages, rugs made of black panther's hide, rugs made of antelope's hide, red canopies and couches with red bolsters at each end. Samana Gotama abstains from using such high and luxurious beds and their furnishings. A worldling, bhikkhus, might praise the Tathagata in this manner.
And then there are certain respected samanas and brahmanas who, living on the food offered out of faith (in kamma and its results), are given to beautifying or adorning themselves. And what are such embellishments and adornments? They are: using perfumed cosmetics, getting massaged, taking perfumed baths, developing one's physique, using mirrors, painting eye-lashes dark, decorating (oneself) with flowers, applying powder and lotion to the body, beautifying the face with powder and lotion, wearing bangles, tying the hair into a top-knot, carrying walking sticks or ornamented hollow cylinders (containing medicinal herbs) or swords, using multi-coloured umbrellas or footwear (with gorgeous designs), wearing a turban or hair-pin set with rubies, carrying a Yak-tail fan and wearing long white robes with fringes. Samana Gotama abstains from such embellishment and adornment. A worldling, bhikkhus, might praise the Tathagata in this manner.
So maybe I shouldn't have bought that luxury mattress and new couch to help with my back a few months ago?
VICE article
...Yet he points out that, even for monks, Buddhist rules are not necessarily a blanket ban on behaviors. A prohibition against drinking is less about staying away from alcohol, and more about ensuring that a person can keep their mindfulness and control their own actions. A monk crosses a line, however, when they cannot stop playing, or begin to draw their happiness from a game. “Your happiness is not dependent on anything external. You do not give the key to your happiness to anyone else.”
Pongsiri, the former monk, agrees. The danger in playing a game is not the game itself, but the desire it may cause—since in Buddhist thought, desire is the cause of suffering. “If you lose or win, you want to do it again and again. You’re always thinking about the game. If you cling to that mindset, it causes mental suffering or physical suffering.”
This danger of competition and desire are why monks are generally not allowed to play sports. (Though, to be honest, I’ve seen more than a few novices playing covert soccer games.) Sports offer many benefits, both men agree, but if they become too much about winning or lead to bad feelings it can damage attempts to attain enlightenment...
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Interesting that “getting massaged” and “developing one’s physique” are on the list. That last one cuts out pretty much all gym-based training, but it’s an obvious source of attachment.
The simplest way to test out the effect that a game has on you is to just stop doing it and not substitute the time you would have spent doing it with anything else.
The dis-ease or discomfort that arises from the resulting lack of stimulation can indicate the degree to which that gameplay is actually suffering's cause..
Are we crabs in a cooking pot oblivious to the ever-increasing water temperature?
It is not necessarily the game that is the problem but how we relate to it.
I have long felt that the right "livelihood" of the 8FP's wheel while true, might have been a better support structure for all the other spokes on that wheel if it was re-labeled instead as appropriate "interactions" or relationships.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited June 22
I think where that brings me is that there are unavoidable and often positive, in a worldly sense, activities one engages in living in the world. And that learning cognitive and social skills to manage them so they don't devolve into excessively harmful, destructive behaviors is what worldly people might do better striving for than outright abstention from those things. Things like taking care of one's health or relationships. At another level a life of abstention can also lead to a weakened resistance if one does encounter such things. Similar to how a child growing up in an over-sanitized environment produces a weakened immune system.
My understanding of your life at the moment is that it is maybe closer to a monastic lifestyle than that of a lay practitioner.
Fair call but I just don't see monastics as having an easier time with attachments than the laity. Both training formulas have their own advantages and disadvantages but the 4NT/8FP & Dependent origination apply as much to one as the other.
I didn't mean to sound like I was advocating for some permanent removal of the games in our lives. I was just suggesting that there are simple temporary experiential means for determining how much of our game usage results in suffering's cause or how much does not. What we do with the resulting evidence is a whole different story.
I just distrust our mentality alone with its habituated tweaking for stimulation, to be a reliable arbiter in determining whether a game's play is harmful or harmless.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Fair call but I just don't see monastics as having an easier time with attachments than the laity. Both training formulas have their own advantages and disadvantages but the 4NT/8FP & Dependent origination apply as much to one as the other.
I didn't mean to sound like I was advocating for some permanent removal of the games in our lives. I was just suggesting that there are simple temporary experiential means for determining how much of our game usage results in suffering's cause or how much does not. What we do with the resulting evidence is a whole different story.
I just distrust our mentality alone with its habituated tweaking for stimulation, to be a reliable arbiter in determining whether a game's play is harmful or harmless.
You kind of snuck into the conversation while I was writing up my post, it wasn't directed at your previous reply.
Fools start with self-delusion. And we are all fools (thus have I heard)
In other words, who buys the narrative? How near is Reality?
Of course none of us are immune to life, the universe and everything. BUT we can escape play going nowhere. How many paths have you been down before success ends in change?
Ready yet?
Have a great life, year, day everyone. Be kinder. Be smarter. Be safe in your uncertainty. Never underestimate the power of:
1. Words unreadable
2. Silence unsayable
3. Human Nature
I have to say….This thread has been so interesting to me. My daughter is a gamer ( mostly adventure) and as it’s still a very much male dominated field of work and hobby…. How much of this is male mind oriented?? As in the mental masturbation of whether it’s right or wrong. How and in what way is it?. Which for the record, we should discuss and question on most things we spend our time doing. Addresses the delusion thing head on. …Anyway as I was saying…
The just nature of competition and dominance and thrill of a hunt/fight/win that most men ( the animal) don’t experience now. Gamers are only one side of it…Fight for good vs evil…fight for resources, etc …the other side seems to be those who enjoy watching the real fight as opposed to the fantasy. Like UFC and boxing for example.
. I’ve never heard a group of females sit around and discuss…Are we addicted/find too much joy in..housework.. or crafts.. or child raising, even elder care….mostly otherwise female gendered “domestic and social group roles and activities…even fields of work in these said areas. Kinda fascinating.
Any of you ask the females in your life what they think about your time game playing? Do they think it’s too much? Is it taking away from other family bonding needs and wants? Does it fuel any aggression.? Things like that.
Disclaimer…I only dabble in the games…mostly time management for accomplished part and puzzle for the working the brain muscles part.
Adam Conover (YouTube channel called Factually), just did a discussion on games called Your brain is hardwired to love games. Its not about the gender difference.. that's just my own wonderings..
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@how said:
I was just suggesting that there are simple temporary experiential means for determining how much of our game usage results in suffering's cause or how much does not.
The thing is, I find gaming a very pleasant experience initially and it only switches to unpleasant after a good long while of intense play, when I get sick of it and underlying issues begin to surface.
Craving also goes up and down. Initially there is a little, just some caused by an enthusiasm. Then I get further into it and there is some draw, a yearning to play regularly. Then I get sick of it and there is a revulsion.
I just distrust our mentality alone with its habituated tweaking for stimulation, to be a reliable arbiter in determining whether a game's play is harmful or harmless.
I think you’re right. My brain gets suckered into feeling enthusiastic, when deep down I know it is unreal, illusionary, not of benefit and it will show itself after some play.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
The gendered aspect of gaming is an interesting one. It is male dominated, but my D&D groups have two women and one trans woman and when I played WoW my guild consisted largely of older people with families and couples who played together. As a generality, the women do have a different emphasis in their play style, preferring character and story over mechanics and combat. To be clear, since such topics can fall into stereotyping pretty quickly, pretty much everyone I find myself playing with enjoys all those things, its more about emphasis. I tend to like them both and having women in a group makes my experience much more enjoyable. The mechanics driven number crunching gets stale pretty quickly.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited June 23
@Vastmind said:
I have to say….This thread has been so interesting to me.
I’m glad it’s appreciated, I put heart and soul into some of these posts!
My daughter is a gamer ( mostly adventure) and as it’s still a very much male dominated field of work and hobby…. How much of this is male mind oriented??
It’s been well known to game designers that women prefer mostly different kinds of games to men. Candy Crush Saga and Animal Crossing for example are two largely female oriented games. Things like completist play, gathering “all the pets”, the thrill of speed as in Mario Kart, adventure are more balanced between the sexes.
If you look at a game like World of Warcraft which a few years after it’s launch had about 30% female players, it was well known that a lot of healers and crafters were played by women. In the guilds I used to play in there were quite a few husband-and-wife teams.
In the mobile space, as opposed to consoles or PCs, the sexes are pretty balanced, there are a lot of women who play on their phones. Also the only two people I’ve ever seen playing on a Nintendo Switch on public transport have been women.
Any of you ask the females in your life what they think about your time game playing? Do they think it’s too much? Is it taking away from other family bonding needs and wants? Does it fuel any aggression.? Things like that.
I have a woman-friend who likes to play games, she was into team shooters like Quake and racers like Sonic the Hedgehog. She still regularly gets out her Sega Megadrive to play old retro games, mainly because she has an attention deficit problem and can’t read books or watch long tv programmes.
Certainly from some of the interviews I’ve been watching on YouTube with real addicts one of the key features of addiction is when you start lying to loved ones and friends about how much you game.
Adam Conover (YouTube channel called Factually), just did a discussion on games called Your brain is hardwired to love games.
That is kinda true. The way we are rewarded for winning and how we like to avoid losing, the “practicing for the real world” effect, means pretty much everyone likes games. But this is the brain getting fooled, there isn’t that much that can be learned from most games beyond basic gameplay mechanics, which aren’t related in any way to the real world.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@person said:
The mechanics driven number crunching gets stale pretty quickly.
Ahum about that… I used to make spreadsheets about game number systems, which I admit was pretty hardcore. But I had fun doing it.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@person said:
The mechanics driven number crunching gets stale pretty quickly.
Ahum about that… I used to make spreadsheets about game number systems, which I admit was pretty hardcore. But I had fun doing it.
Sorry if I was dismissive. I make use of optimization breakdowns people post online and will ask questions on forums to help out my play, but getting into that myself isn't where my interest in gaming lies. That said I am the type of player who likes keeping track of inventory and gathering items for crafting.
there isn’t that much that can be learned from most games beyond basic gameplay mechanics, which aren’t related in any way to the real world.
This caught my attention. The past several years there have been companies, like Luminosity, that have developed and sold games as ways to develop and train your brain, even for things like a preventative for an ageing brain. But, I think this is fairly true, that they've been shown to mainly only help you get better at the game. The results don't transfer over into real life.
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited June 24
@person said:
But, I think this is fairly true, that they've been shown to mainly only help you get better at the game. The results don't transfer over into real life.
Games are such a wide field it is dangerous to generalise. I remember the brain training craze a few years ago, I even played some of those games for a little while on my phone. It didn’t really keep my interest.
My type of games were adventure-role playing games like Fallout 3, Mass Effect, and Red Dead Redemption. I didn’t actually play that many, even when I was designing games and there was a pretty comprehensive company games cabinet from which you could borrow titles.
And a few strategy games, like Civilisation and Panzer General. And a few MMO’s, like World of Warcraft, and Aion and Age of Conan for a short while.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited June 27
This I thought was really cool, a combination of mods to Elder Scrolls: Skyrim which allows you to actually talk to NPCs via your microphone. It involves speech recognition, speech-to-text, ChatGPT for generating in-character responses, and an AI voice actor system for output.
When a system like that becomes seamlessly real-time it will help immersion a lot, making you much more involved with characters beyond just exploring a dialogue tree of pre-programmed responses, which is the current state-of-the-art.
It also confuses the issue of “what a character knows” and makes it more difficult to explore the full range of responses that a character has, making the game less a game and more a life exploration sim. I think this is an awesome use of several AI technologies.
In a way it makes an RPG like Skyrim into an experience much closer to live-action role playing.
Hmm.....shouldn't the thread title be "Lets play games" ...
How many of you players are now ex-players ?
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited June 28
@Jeroen said:
This I thought was really cool, a combination of mods to Elder Scrolls: Skyrim which allows you to actually talk to NPCs via your microphone. It involves speech recognition, speech-to-text, ChatGPT for generating in-character responses, and an AI voice actor system for output.
When a system like that becomes seamlessly real-time it will help immersion a lot, making you much more involved with characters beyond just exploring a dialogue tree of pre-programmed responses, which is the current state-of-the-art.
It also confuses the issue of “what a character knows” and makes it more difficult to explore the full range of responses that a character has, making the game less a game and more a life exploration sim. I think this is an awesome use of several AI technologies.
In a way it makes an RPG like Skyrim into an experience much closer to live-action role playing.
I'm conflicted. I feel like this is the sort of thing that you've convinced me was spiritually detrimental. At the same time I get the sense that maybe I've influenced you towards a more affirming view for your own disposition towards games.
What I see you being attracted to is the technical ingenuity of combining all these elements into something new and interesting.
Personally I worry about this use of AI. Its more isolating for an already isolated culture. People (lets be honest, its primarily men) are starting to "date" AI girlfriends and similar things. I don't believe this to be a healthy development. These AI interactions lack the risk and reward of human interaction. In live action role play, there is out of character bonding over shared experiences, joking, playing off one another's character in a way that I just don't see AI replicating. People require you to understand them and respond in a manner that they can hear. And it forces you to try to express yourself in a way that uplifts and enhances everyone's experience. An AI interaction will cater only to your wants and interests.
I'm far from a social person, but a little positive human to human interaction beats forum or AI ( I suppose I assume) communication every time.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@person said:
I'm conflicted. I feel like this is the sort of thing that you've convinced me was spiritually detrimental. At the same time I get the sense that maybe I've influenced you towards a more affirming view for your own disposition towards games.
Definitely, it still is spiritually detrimental. But even some spiritual attitudes can be spiritually detrimental, if my dream realms are to be believed.
You’re right that you’ve influenced me to moderate my position that maybe not all games are bad. Certainly my stance on D&D has gone from “mostly violent and bad” to “socially beneficial and containing many positive elements”.
What I see you being attracted to is the technical ingenuity of combining all these elements into something new and interesting.
It’s more than that though. By actually talking to NPCs you make them more human, and the game less empty and mechanical. It influences a whole series of important elements of how the game’s story is told, creating a more human and more social experience. I see it as a positive step.
But that doesn’t take away that you are still involved in slaughtering a subcontinents creatures, depopulating the map, engaging in combat grinding, power gaming, min-maxing the play environment, basically murder-hobo’ing your way across the game environment. It’s a very unhealthy kind of game where you are basically asked to be a hired killer.
Personally I worry about this use of AI. Its more isolating for an already isolated culture. People (lets be honest, its primarily men) are starting to "date" AI girlfriends and similar things. I don't believe this to be a healthy development. These AI interactions lack the risk and reward of human interaction. In live action role play, there is out of character bonding over shared experiences, joking, playing off one another's character in a way that I just don't see AI replicating. People require you to understand them and respond in a manner that they can hear. And it forces you to try to express yourself in a way that uplifts and enhances everyone's experience. An AI interaction will cater only to your wants and interests.
The “AI girlfriends” concern is definitely a legitimate worry, I can see that becoming more attractive especially as a lot of these games feature in-character eye candy characters. I can see people investing significant time in that.
But I can foresee some solid additional gameplay elements emerging from this, like campfire chats with an adventuring party or building the crew of a starship into a solid whole. That kind of “social play” could be a welcome new style.
Anyway yes you’re right, still the same old games, with a small new twist.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Hmm.....shouldn't the thread title be "Lets play games" ...
How many of you players are now ex-players ?
It’s become quite a wide-ranging discussion, that’s true, in which we’ve contemplated playing a number of different games. I’m still staying away from computer games though, so I count myself as an ex-player, and @person and @marcitko are also mostly clear of the woods.
Comments
You’re not wrong, I could easily imagine raiding goblins as xenophobic throatcutters, driven by a religious devotion to a Lower Planar power. And in that case a crew of murder hobo’s might be exactly what you need to clear some space for a pressurised human community.
But the D&D world is not exactly primitive, there are pretty sophisticated cities and multicultural melting pots like Waterdeep. In part it is a setting for culturally modern humans to play in, a post-medieval world where the European Enlightenment and subsequent Industrial Revolution never happened, and a lot of the more intelligent people are absorbed in the magical arts.
Certainly there is a question what morality should look like, properly role-played within a D&D world. It is a more complex world, and look how much trouble we have in this one. But for example importing principles of law like private property into a game is a lot of trouble.
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Large cities tend to keep areas around them somewhat patrolled. The two worlds I've spent the most time playing in Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance have both experienced pretty devastating, society upending events in their not so distant past. They're structured to be less civilized in most of the world.
Are you talking about trying to make the game world more realistic, what they call verisimilitude? Like sometimes people will argue that certain rule mechanics won't work because of physics. Or want to "citizens arrest" someone and put them through a modern legal system, which doesn't really exist in game. I think that sort of thing in my experience is dealt with like, "its just a game, no need to perfectly simulate a complete legal code." Have fun, for most people typing up contracts for deed or keeping track of all your arrows and food isn't that much fun. If your group is a bunch of lawyers or accountants who do like that sort of thing though, knock yourself out, its very adaptable like that.
True, but it’s somewhat necessary to examine the role of the City Watch or the local Sheriff in the society the players operate in. You want to know what you’re going to get put into gaol for, which might range from public drunkenness to injuring a citizen.
If you want to take a leaf from history, there were judges and city guards in the time of King Henry II so around 1200 AD who decided cases based on a national law laid down by judges in London. So a lot of modern law got started in medieval times, and that would influence character behaviour.
I recall some parts of the Dark Sun campaign setting which was pretty innovative in laying down customs for people to play with. It was kinda cool.
“Psychoanalysis does not lead to understanding or insight. Instead, analysis gives multiple views on problems, leading to a thousand views where in fact only one problem exists…”
— Osho
Hmmm. Perhaps that is what I am doing in this topic.
A cool game mechanic here, I’ve always liked the Zelda games, and Nintendo’s approach.
Although there is nothing to be learnt here pertaining to the spiritual path, I find myself intrigued and a little excited. Somehow it stirs the passions, and I would like to know why it kindles this energy in me.
Just to look a little more deeply, I find it interesting that it is a female lead character, doing puzzley things by creating echoes of items in the game. It seems to be almost entirely non-combat. Yet there is still an element of strategy, puzzle and victory. It’s brilliant game design.
If I can be a bit direct. I feel like you have this analytical side of your disposition that the spiritual world you grew up in didn't really celebrate, the emphasis is more on the yin side of things. Then your forays into that aspect of life led to negative outcomes and that has led you to try to deny or suppress that aspect of yourself. I think you need to look for healthy, spiritually aligned ways to express this longing. For example there are people with psychological backgrounds who use games as a therapeutic method for healing and development of others. I remember a story of someone who made a game to help get over their grief at losing a child and it gained a large following from other people it helped.
But I'm not sure we're really on the same path or looking for the same outcomes. So this may be just me projecting my psychology and interest onto you.
Certainly true, and that is a valuable insight for which I thank you. Probably the most deeply I went into my analytical side was during schooling, when I studied Physics and Mathematics at the top level in high school and Mechanical Engineering in University. This accumulated knowledge came back during the game design and development, where there are strong aspects of ‘modelling the world’ which engineering has as well.
I don’t think this is true though. For 13 years after Uni I was a highly successful triple-A game software developer, architect and designer and I made a living and a significant amount of money from it. The breakdown you could call a negative outcome. During recovery I chose to return to my roots and resume a more spiritual orientation, also taking in Buddhism for 12 years.
It doesn’t feel to me like I am trying to ‘deny or suppress’ either the analytical engineering side or the games design side of my past, I am merely choosing to reframe them from a spiritual perspective. I’m acknowledging that neither is potentially as healthy as they appear, the analysis is a ‘destructive dry scientific examining method’ and the game design is an ‘entertainer’.
The thing is, this longing for games I am interested in because it energises and motivates me. I watch a video like this Nintendo one and I think “oh wow, that’s cool, look at those awesome ideas”. It literally sparks something inside me, perhaps some dopamine echo.
Hmm. A quick note, victory is a result of rules. In ordinary play there is no such thing, but as soon as play becomes a game by the addition of rules, there is also the idea of victory and loss.
This may well be one of the earliest encounters of winning and losing in a human life. Victory means demonstrating that you are the best, that your understanding and execution are superior. It improves your standing among your peers in the social order.
To me this seems like a pretty negative reframing and not necessarily spiritual. There is the technique of looking at the negative aspects of unhealthy desires to reduce cravings. Like bodily fluids or corpses for physical attraction.
I think where I come from is that people have a varying array of innate dispositions, such as introversion/extroversion. Rather than an extrovert framing their disposition in a negative light to help them become more spiritually introspective they'd be better off finding spiritually and meaningful ways of being extroverted as a path. Such as connecting with dharma groups, doing outreach, that sort of thing.
Which is what my point here is about. Rather than trying to not be analytical, embrace that aspect of yourself and find a healthy, spiritually minded outlet for it. Not for the past but for the present and future.
Perhaps it is futile to try and analyse where these impulses come from, it is after all another mind based activity which stirs things up. I may be better off just trying to meditate, and drop these base enthusiasms as temporary flights of fancy.
Rather like ‘The Monk’ in this other thread, I have given my life another turning and am coping with leftover impulses. All well and good, I don’t have to give them attention.
I think at base this has to do with manipulating reality, some games make this easy. It’s a childhood dream, really, which we have to let go of. Crafting, pottery, gardening, home decorating is as close as we come.
Manipulating reality
Our attempts at re-ordering reality are a straightforward definition of suffering's cause, our ego's storyline, our identity's tribal membership, and the very dream that the Buddha exhorted his disciples to awaken from.
It is not uncommon for analytical analysis when remaining passively observative and essentially inactive in any direct challenging of the processes by which the dream is maintained, to be more of a sleeping aid than an alarm clock.
Simply watching those mechanisms in play that continue the status quo of our own ignorance, without some countering to that momentum, is little more than a spectator's view and the support of our own continuing spiritual entropy.
What difference do you think might be required in evolving from a spectator to a participant, in an actual decommissioning of one's own dream productions?
Perhaps you are talking in more nuance than I am picking up. I'm not sure what play without rules would even look like, tea parties have rules (be polite, pretend its real), running through a sprinkler has rules (one at a time, share the space). When young kids play they'll make up all kinds of rules on the spot for how the world their imagining works. Structure gives things meaning and purpose, a totally open and unstructured world lacks shape and direction.
So I think you're probably talking about some sort of formalized rule set like for Basketball or Settlers of Catan. Even then the sort of attitude you talk about doesn't exist in the game, it exists in the people playing the game. Perhaps the attitudes you talk about are more of a natural reaction people would develop and things like good sportsmanship or playing for the love of the game rather than winning are social skills that need to be taught? I guess I was taught them at a young age and as such I don't really see the domineering/superiority mindset as being inherent to the game.
I recall times when I played as a young child pretty much without rules. I don’t mean the kind of social cues that you seem to see as rules, I mean a more formalised set of rules such as those around playing with marbles or tag. Something halfway between freeform and a boardgame.
There you go. I wasn’t really taught much of anything when young, I was an only child and my parents believed in letting me evolve on my own.
I think I might take as an example the Asubha meditation, which also seeks to change the paradigm of something usually seen as attractive, the body, and introduce contemplation of the constituents of the body when it is breaking down and disgusting.
If you consider the negative constituents of a game at the point where the initial fascination of gaming has run its course and it has captured another convert to the treadmill, then it becomes clear.
There are a lot of negative effects of games which aren’t marketed in the same way as the more positive aspects, but once you have them clear in your mind you start to see them in different places. In this thread I’ve placed a number of this kind of posts, which are my attempt to bring to mind the sinews and slime of games.
It has everything to do with disenchantment — with realising that what games dangle in front of you as a reward is little more than sociological and mythological convention, a thin selection of noughts and ones making up a digital asset of something that has a much richer appearance in your mind. Ultimately you realise there isn’t anything of value in nearly-all games. I added the ‘nearly all’ as a nod to @person’s Dungeons and Dragons game nights.
You may have to revisit this place multiple times, when some clever piece of game marketing presents you with another dream to visit and tries to persuade you to rejoin the herd, before you become clear again on the true nature of games. The being can see this is right, but it takes time to let it sink into the lower reaches of mind.
It occurs to me…
If all dharmas are empty of characteristics, then all games must be equally so.
Understanding what there is of value in games is therefore key. I think it can be broken down into five categories, as follows:
Once these areas lose their hold on you, you may find yourself losing interest rapidly. There are other entertainments, other and better ways of telling stories. Confidence you may find you have enough of. Game mechanics is a very wide area and ultimately devolves into numerical puzzles, and social interaction through games can stay fresh for a long time.
So when I say there isn’t anything of value, I mean in an ultimate sense. You know what they say about the Dhamma — that it is good in the beginning, good in the middle and good at the end. For games there is a slightly different perspective, that games are good for a beginning player, stay fun for a long time, but ultimately you reach a point of being done with them (or you get totally wrapped up in addiction).
That point in the end, when you begin to see through the illusions to the little puzzles the game is made up of, that is where you become disenchanted. The puzzles ultimately have no value to you.
I recognize this point in playing certain games where the disenchantment comes in. I still find games in general stimulating and interesting. Its all the addictive, engrossing elements that have been introduced through computer games that I've become disenchanted with overall.
This kind of dichotomy hasn't really been where I've found myself. In my experience it doesn't seem like it has to be one or the other, a healthy balance can be found. As a sort of general life philosophy I think the healthy balance model is ultimately destined to failure, even though it might last a whole life, and that renunciation and cessation are the solution to samsara. I remember thinking early in my spiritual journey thinking something along these lines, that a healthy, functional life can't last, its a lot of effort to sustain it and attachment to it will incentivize one to commit negative actions.
Where I am now is that after years of contemplating a monastic life I realize that I'm not going to take that plunge and that a worldly "healthy balance" life where I also make Dharma efforts is more appropriate for me. I don't have to pretend like I can't engage in certain things and feel more open to experimentation and connection in a moderated, careful way. And yes, there are dangers, but there are social and cultural skills that can be learned to help one navigate the choppy waters. Like sportsmanship and love of the game over winning around games mentioned above.
A good parallel from my own life is that of intoxicating substances. I went through a period of several years in my youth of drinking and drugs. Had some good times but didn't like where it led me and I became disenchanted with it. Now, I occasionally find myself around people who are drinking and having a good time of it, I feel no compulsion to engage. I also hold no judgement or ill will towards them, the substance or the act. Over the years I've been prescribed some heavy pain meds and have a few times took them more recreationally and the distaste has rearisen, I have no desire to try again. With the increasing legalization of marijuana in the US I'm tempted to try that again, but I imagine the results will be similar, the downsides outweigh the high.
Thinking on this and my attitude towards those who do partake, I think there is an important psychological difference between disenchantment and aversion to a thing. Perhaps that distinction is something to contemplate around letting go of games?
As long as it feels wholesome and beneficial to you, it should be fine to continue, @person. I think that should be the test. Distaste arising like it did for you over large-scale AAA games is an obvious pointer to think more deeply about it.
If you’re careful about things like D&D playing and bring in some wisdom about how you play, and keep it light and non-serious, then I don’t see a problem. Of course associating with the wise is best, if you could find a table with suitable players and DM.
Disenchantment for me turns about the disappointment of the enthusiastic impulse. Enthusiasm crops up when you feel you’ve found something good, a little luminous glow that comes along. To then realise that it wasn’t good after all, that’s disenchantment.
I agree. This is the whole of samsara and when dukkha is broken down into 3 types or levels this kind of unreliability and dissatisfaction dips into the 3rd level according to my understanding. The pleasant things of the world all have this seed of dissatisfaction and are ultimately unreliable. That is different than saying all is misery and life holds no pleasure though. I think like I've said in various forms previously that having to live in the world while renouncing pleasant things entirely offers a life with all of the effort and difficulty of a renunciate life with little of the reward of peace and bliss.
What I've found so far is that yes, the people you play with matters a lot. But it is also very constructive and beneficial to my understanding and appreciation of others to associate with the less wise and virtuous, in a titrated way, too.
I’ve been watching some video’s of the Game Quitters YouTube channel, and reading some threads on the r/StopGaming Reddits; it is interesting what kind of people have problems with their gaming. But it made me realise I’m not really in the same category as the people who can’t control their gaming habits, the real gaming addicts.
For me, gaming was not a waste of time, it was a profession. I played the games I enjoyed, but also to do research. I got good at game analysis, not just to play better, but to build new games. You can make a very good living making games. And even during my worst World of Warcraft moments, it never significantly impacted my work, eating, sleeping, hygiene and so on. It just ate up all my spare time.
But my time with Buddhism and the return to Osho have made me realise there are better ways to spend your life. And it is your life you are spending, not just your time. Games are linked to the emptiness of materialism, creating desire, status, progression, logic… And the spiritual path is a better way to live, making a way to gratitude, love and kindness. Games ended up kind of falling away, together with television and fiction books. After all, I haven’t played a AAA game in twelve years.
So with this came the realisation that I didn’t need to comb out every gaming or games design impulse from my brain, or totally reduce the enthusiasm to a palmyra stump (as the sutras say). Gaming produces in me a kind of fixation, a fascination with the screen. If I look at the last of my gaming dreams, it showed that these screens were largely non-beneficial, an illusion, a deception.
If I compare these things to my life the last ten years, I have found more wisdom, I have started realising one shouldn’t take games and indeed life seriously. That ultimately getting caught up in games is to take them seriously, to believe they can teach something important while in fact all they have to offer is illusion and dream.
Perhaps another place for analysis is the distinction between your feelings and inclinations towards games and the games themselves? I remember a few times talking to people about long game sessions and them saying they couldn't understand how I could spend that much time on it. They themselves weren't even attracted to games. In that craving interaction how much of it is the individual and how much of it is the game itself? Those individuals who weren't attracted to games weren't free from craving, they were attracted to other things. So is the fundamental issue broadly games or craving?
The instinct to play is universal, I think, it is a childhood impulse to practice on the world. I believe few people do not enjoy an occasional hour-long game of Settlers of Cataan or Ticket to Ride or Texas Hold ‘Em poker. Whether they can also enjoy a five-hour evening of D&D is a more variable proposition — some will, some won’t. I think for the vast majority of people it is innocent.
But I think video games are more problematic. Most massively-multiplayer online role playing games are built to be highly addictive time sinks which keep you engaged in grinding quests for days and weeks. Team shooters like Counter Strike or Overwatch 2 are made to get you to hone your skills to a fine edge, spending many hours in social groups in limited environments. A triple-A open world RPG like Fallout 3 appeals to the completist single player.
All of these kinds of games have their own audiences, their own hooks, their own conventions. They are all trying to create the most appealing combination within their niche, hoping for a breakout hit like Baldurs Gate 3. And so by definition they are searching for market tent-poles, things that suck in large numbers of players for as long as possible.
It’s an industry which searches for the most desired dreams. So in a way it is the games which are intentionally made to be objects of craving. For a Buddhist, it is an unhealthy hobby to engage with. The answers to craving are within, not outside in a games console.
Some how I don't think its come up in this long thread, the Buddha's recommendation for monks around games, plays, other distractions. So I went to look it up and found an interesting VICE article talking with some Thai monks about the impact and ethics of video games in their world.
Buddha's advice.
Which also includes things like
So maybe I shouldn't have bought that luxury mattress and new couch to help with my back a few months ago?
VICE article
Interesting that “getting massaged” and “developing one’s physique” are on the list. That last one cuts out pretty much all gym-based training, but it’s an obvious source of attachment.
The simplest way to test out the effect that a game has on you is to just stop doing it and not substitute the time you would have spent doing it with anything else.
The dis-ease or discomfort that arises from the resulting lack of stimulation can indicate the degree to which that gameplay is actually suffering's cause..
Are we crabs in a cooking pot oblivious to the ever-increasing water temperature?
It is not necessarily the game that is the problem but how we relate to it.
I have long felt that the right "livelihood" of the 8FP's wheel while true, might have been a better support structure for all the other spokes on that wheel if it was re-labeled instead as appropriate "interactions" or relationships.
I think where that brings me is that there are unavoidable and often positive, in a worldly sense, activities one engages in living in the world. And that learning cognitive and social skills to manage them so they don't devolve into excessively harmful, destructive behaviors is what worldly people might do better striving for than outright abstention from those things. Things like taking care of one's health or relationships. At another level a life of abstention can also lead to a weakened resistance if one does encounter such things. Similar to how a child growing up in an over-sanitized environment produces a weakened immune system.
My understanding of your life at the moment is that it is maybe closer to a monastic lifestyle than that of a lay practitioner.
@person
Fair call but I just don't see monastics as having an easier time with attachments than the laity. Both training formulas have their own advantages and disadvantages but the 4NT/8FP & Dependent origination apply as much to one as the other.
I didn't mean to sound like I was advocating for some permanent removal of the games in our lives. I was just suggesting that there are simple temporary experiential means for determining how much of our game usage results in suffering's cause or how much does not. What we do with the resulting evidence is a whole different story.
I just distrust our mentality alone with its habituated tweaking for stimulation, to be a reliable arbiter in determining whether a game's play is harmful or harmless.
You kind of snuck into the conversation while I was writing up my post, it wasn't directed at your previous reply.
Dear Imaginary Friends,
Don't you know:
In other words, who buys the narrative? How near is Reality?
Of course none of us are immune to life, the universe and everything. BUT we can escape play going nowhere. How many paths have you been down before success ends in change?
Ready yet?
Have a great life, year, day everyone. Be kinder. Be smarter. Be safe in your uncertainty. Never underestimate the power of:
1. Words unreadable
2. Silence unsayable
3. Human Nature
Game over? ...or is it? [Blah, blah, blah]
https://www.gamingaddictsanonymous.org/
I have to say….This thread has been so interesting to me. My daughter is a gamer ( mostly adventure) and as it’s still a very much male dominated field of work and hobby…. How much of this is male mind oriented?? As in the mental masturbation of whether it’s right or wrong. How and in what way is it?. Which for the record, we should discuss and question on most things we spend our time doing. Addresses the delusion thing head on. …Anyway as I was saying…
The just nature of competition and dominance and thrill of a hunt/fight/win that most men ( the animal) don’t experience now. Gamers are only one side of it…Fight for good vs evil…fight for resources, etc …the other side seems to be those who enjoy watching the real fight as opposed to the fantasy. Like UFC and boxing for example.
. I’ve never heard a group of females sit around and discuss…Are we addicted/find too much joy in..housework.. or crafts.. or child raising, even elder care….mostly otherwise female gendered “domestic and social group roles and activities…even fields of work in these said areas. Kinda fascinating.
Any of you ask the females in your life what they think about your time game playing? Do they think it’s too much? Is it taking away from other family bonding needs and wants? Does it fuel any aggression.? Things like that.
Disclaimer…I only dabble in the games…mostly time management for accomplished part and puzzle for the working the brain muscles part.
Adam Conover (YouTube channel called Factually), just did a discussion on games called Your brain is hardwired to love games. Its not about the gender difference.. that's just my own wonderings..
…here is a short
https://youtube.com/shorts/gb1o3T3BUyY?si=_PCWkZUj69h3T5OX
The thing is, I find gaming a very pleasant experience initially and it only switches to unpleasant after a good long while of intense play, when I get sick of it and underlying issues begin to surface.
Craving also goes up and down. Initially there is a little, just some caused by an enthusiasm. Then I get further into it and there is some draw, a yearning to play regularly. Then I get sick of it and there is a revulsion.
I think you’re right. My brain gets suckered into feeling enthusiastic, when deep down I know it is unreal, illusionary, not of benefit and it will show itself after some play.
The gendered aspect of gaming is an interesting one. It is male dominated, but my D&D groups have two women and one trans woman and when I played WoW my guild consisted largely of older people with families and couples who played together. As a generality, the women do have a different emphasis in their play style, preferring character and story over mechanics and combat. To be clear, since such topics can fall into stereotyping pretty quickly, pretty much everyone I find myself playing with enjoys all those things, its more about emphasis. I tend to like them both and having women in a group makes my experience much more enjoyable. The mechanics driven number crunching gets stale pretty quickly.
I’m glad it’s appreciated, I put heart and soul into some of these posts!
It’s been well known to game designers that women prefer mostly different kinds of games to men. Candy Crush Saga and Animal Crossing for example are two largely female oriented games. Things like completist play, gathering “all the pets”, the thrill of speed as in Mario Kart, adventure are more balanced between the sexes.
If you look at a game like World of Warcraft which a few years after it’s launch had about 30% female players, it was well known that a lot of healers and crafters were played by women. In the guilds I used to play in there were quite a few husband-and-wife teams.
In the mobile space, as opposed to consoles or PCs, the sexes are pretty balanced, there are a lot of women who play on their phones. Also the only two people I’ve ever seen playing on a Nintendo Switch on public transport have been women.
I have a woman-friend who likes to play games, she was into team shooters like Quake and racers like Sonic the Hedgehog. She still regularly gets out her Sega Megadrive to play old retro games, mainly because she has an attention deficit problem and can’t read books or watch long tv programmes.
Certainly from some of the interviews I’ve been watching on YouTube with real addicts one of the key features of addiction is when you start lying to loved ones and friends about how much you game.
That is kinda true. The way we are rewarded for winning and how we like to avoid losing, the “practicing for the real world” effect, means pretty much everyone likes games. But this is the brain getting fooled, there isn’t that much that can be learned from most games beyond basic gameplay mechanics, which aren’t related in any way to the real world.
Ahum about that… I used to make spreadsheets about game number systems, which I admit was pretty hardcore. But I had fun doing it.
Sorry if I was dismissive. I make use of optimization breakdowns people post online and will ask questions on forums to help out my play, but getting into that myself isn't where my interest in gaming lies. That said I am the type of player who likes keeping track of inventory and gathering items for crafting.
This caught my attention. The past several years there have been companies, like Luminosity, that have developed and sold games as ways to develop and train your brain, even for things like a preventative for an ageing brain. But, I think this is fairly true, that they've been shown to mainly only help you get better at the game. The results don't transfer over into real life.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/do-brain-training-apps-really-work
Games are such a wide field it is dangerous to generalise. I remember the brain training craze a few years ago, I even played some of those games for a little while on my phone. It didn’t really keep my interest.
My type of games were adventure-role playing games like Fallout 3, Mass Effect, and Red Dead Redemption. I didn’t actually play that many, even when I was designing games and there was a pretty comprehensive company games cabinet from which you could borrow titles.
And a few strategy games, like Civilisation and Panzer General. And a few MMO’s, like World of Warcraft, and Aion and Age of Conan for a short while.
This I thought was really cool, a combination of mods to Elder Scrolls: Skyrim which allows you to actually talk to NPCs via your microphone. It involves speech recognition, speech-to-text, ChatGPT for generating in-character responses, and an AI voice actor system for output.
When a system like that becomes seamlessly real-time it will help immersion a lot, making you much more involved with characters beyond just exploring a dialogue tree of pre-programmed responses, which is the current state-of-the-art.
It also confuses the issue of “what a character knows” and makes it more difficult to explore the full range of responses that a character has, making the game less a game and more a life exploration sim. I think this is an awesome use of several AI technologies.
In a way it makes an RPG like Skyrim into an experience much closer to live-action role playing.
Hmm.....shouldn't the thread title be "Lets play games" ...
How many of you players are now ex-players ?
I'm conflicted. I feel like this is the sort of thing that you've convinced me was spiritually detrimental. At the same time I get the sense that maybe I've influenced you towards a more affirming view for your own disposition towards games.
What I see you being attracted to is the technical ingenuity of combining all these elements into something new and interesting.
Personally I worry about this use of AI. Its more isolating for an already isolated culture. People (lets be honest, its primarily men) are starting to "date" AI girlfriends and similar things. I don't believe this to be a healthy development. These AI interactions lack the risk and reward of human interaction. In live action role play, there is out of character bonding over shared experiences, joking, playing off one another's character in a way that I just don't see AI replicating. People require you to understand them and respond in a manner that they can hear. And it forces you to try to express yourself in a way that uplifts and enhances everyone's experience. An AI interaction will cater only to your wants and interests.
I'm far from a social person, but a little positive human to human interaction beats forum or AI ( I suppose I assume) communication every time.
Definitely, it still is spiritually detrimental. But even some spiritual attitudes can be spiritually detrimental, if my dream realms are to be believed.
You’re right that you’ve influenced me to moderate my position that maybe not all games are bad. Certainly my stance on D&D has gone from “mostly violent and bad” to “socially beneficial and containing many positive elements”.
It’s more than that though. By actually talking to NPCs you make them more human, and the game less empty and mechanical. It influences a whole series of important elements of how the game’s story is told, creating a more human and more social experience. I see it as a positive step.
But that doesn’t take away that you are still involved in slaughtering a subcontinents creatures, depopulating the map, engaging in combat grinding, power gaming, min-maxing the play environment, basically murder-hobo’ing your way across the game environment. It’s a very unhealthy kind of game where you are basically asked to be a hired killer.
The “AI girlfriends” concern is definitely a legitimate worry, I can see that becoming more attractive especially as a lot of these games feature in-character eye candy characters. I can see people investing significant time in that.
But I can foresee some solid additional gameplay elements emerging from this, like campfire chats with an adventuring party or building the crew of a starship into a solid whole. That kind of “social play” could be a welcome new style.
Anyway yes you’re right, still the same old games, with a small new twist.
It’s become quite a wide-ranging discussion, that’s true, in which we’ve contemplated playing a number of different games. I’m still staying away from computer games though, so I count myself as an ex-player, and @person and @marcitko are also mostly clear of the woods.