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emptiness creates illusion?
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Comments
metta
this doesn't answer the ultimate question. Sure there is an illusion but the problem is the "order". There is an order in the experince, there are set of rules in effect. Sure objects are illusion and view are deluted but there is an order in it as if almost illuisons and delusions are contained within a predefined system. Because there is an order, we can ask why and how this order come into so-called existence.
If there was no order than there should be chaos. Because there is no chaos there are forces that governs what we experience, which is karma. Because there is karma we are talking about a "system".
Who put the system inplace? or why is it there? are there any other systems beyond our reach?
Sorry my friend I am not following you. Yes you are right "love" is not intellectually satisfying answer...
There is this... http://www.amazon.com/Abhidharmakosabhasyam-Set-L-Vallee-Poussin/dp/0895819139/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1306556144&sr=8-1
"Editorial Reviews
Review
"... one of the landmark achievements in the history of Buddhist Studies. Highly recommended for all academic libraries..."--Choice -- Choice Magazine
Product Description
This is the most important compendium of Indian Buddhist philosophy and psychology. The four volume (app. 1600 pp.) clothbound masterwork begins with a history of abhidharma literature and covers a vast array of subjects from a Buddhist viewpoint. Some of these subjects are Buddhist cosmology and the process of rebirth, karma and the Buddhist ethical theory, mental defilements, causes of suffering and the path to enlightenment, the supernatural powers of a Buddha, a taxonomy of meditative states and a refutation of the existence of soul.
"... one of the landmark achievements in the history of Buddhist Studies. Highly recommended for all academic libraries..."--Choice
A selection of Choice Outstanding Books and Nonprint Materials (OABN)."
And this... http://www.amazon.com/Abhidharmasamuccaya-Compendium-Higher-Teaching-Philosophy/dp/0895819414/ref=pd_rhf_shvl_1
"Editorial Reviews
Product Description
There are two systems of Abhidharma, according to Tibetan tradition, lower and higher. The lower system is taught in the Abhidharmakosa, while the higher system is taught in the Abhidharmasamuccaya. Thus the two books form a complementary pair. Asanga, author of the Abhidharmasamuccaya, is founder of the Yogacara school of Mahayana Buddhism. His younger brother Vasubandhu wrote the Abhidharnmakosa before Asanga converted him to Mahayana Buddhism. Yet the Kosa is written in verse, usual for Mahayana treatises, while the Samuccaya follows the traditional prose and answer style of the older Pali Abhidharma texts. Walpola Rahula, in preparing his 1971 French translation of this Mahayana text from the Sanskrit, Chinese, and Tibetan, has brought to bear on its many technical terms his extensive background and great expertise in the Pali canon. J. W. de Jong says in his review of this work:"Rahula deserves our gratitude for his excellent translation of this difficult text." Sara Boin-Webb is well known for her accurate English translations of Buddhist books from the French. She has now made accessible in English Rahula's French translation, the first into a modern language, of this fundamental text."
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The cosmos is merely the play of the energy of endless sentient beings and Buddhas from time without beginning. There is absolutely no first cause, there are just big bangs due to causes and conditions and big crunches due to causes and conditions both within one's individual self and on a cosmic level. There are other universes out there on other dimensions accessed by yogi's that intermingle with this one, it's all just a whole bunch of inter-dependent originations... all empty of inherent existence. LOL!
Think it terms of people, places and things. When they don't have names, they are the true nature of what they are. The names we give them are the illusions.
@santhisouk, have you even read the Abhidharmakosabhasyam? If zen_world is into Zen, then he's into Mahayana and he should read it as it's a necessary read for a person that has the questions that are being asked here. It's a necessary read for anyone into Mahayana at all. It's what senior teachers give their students, even at the very beginning.
I disagree.
unless we have a planned format or chart of the territory, finding your way within is as difficult as anything else.
You need an original plan to start from, before delving into the "inner workings".
But I DO think we have a tendency to over-complicate things for ourselves.
I dunno why....
We shy away from the simple, believing it's too good to be true.
'Simple' isn't the same as 'easy'.
Simple can be really damn difficult.
But it's still 'simple' for all that.
If zen_world is into Zen, then he's into Zen. Mahayana covers such a huge broadsheet, it doesn't necessarily follow that the two meld, or even always meet....
So, I recommended he read it in good graces. If he is honestly a student of Zen, it is very recommended that he read these texts.
so i can see what and where you are going with this. but damn does that non dual satori make everything clearer.
the concepts can do only so much alone. one has to realize the words for themselves. then integrate such words throughout the whole human experience.
lol but i am sure everyone comes through the path differently and i accept that my own experience isn't going to be the same as another. if one can gain contentment and wisdom from mere concepts then damn good for you!!!
As far as concepts go, when one has Satori, one can even integrate the concepts into a state of Satori. I go into Satori often just by reading books.
ah you've inspired me to read up on buddhism.
time to go read. meow.
'love' is something quite different; 'love' is an emotion
emtpiness is utter selflessness; utter non-identification
right view sets the foundation of non-obstructive behaviour
there is no need to over-complicate it naturally, my view is the above is unnecessary
the way is very simple
if we need a guide to Zen practise, something simple such as the Hsin Hsin Ming is more than sufficient
karma is not a system of order or ultimate truth
karma is simply a general notion of good from good, bad from bad, etc
but karma does not make order
for example, those who do good karma still suffering about aging, illness, death, loss, separation,etc
the ultimate truth is one of impermanence, decay, disease, death
the forces of order, such as gravity, nibbana, etc, cannot stop the chaos & illusion of impermanence, decay, disease, death, conditioned perception
there is no "who" that created the dual forces of order & disorder in the universe
there is no "why"?
the only truth is human beings generally suffer about the chaos; they cannot cope with the chaos; they cannot accomodate the aging, illness, death, loss, separation,etc
a brick is full of emptiness but void of love
emptiness is a characteristic of all things, be they animate or inanimate
emptiness embodies non-love & non-hate
because it neither loves nor hates, emptiness can act with freedom
it may seem like love but emptiness is beyond love
are you doing this "wrong"?
no. i am just disagreeing with you
a stream-enterer has directly seen emptiness; selflessness
a stream-enterer has no doubts whatsover about the way to end suffering
where as unconditional love is just non-hate; just non-judgment; non-prejudice
there is no correlation between a stream-enterer & unconditional love
the stream-enterer has learned to die to ego
the Hsin Hsin Ming has explained the way to stream-entry, which is neither love nor hate
Who or what is rejecting nihilism? The Buddha taught two kinds of nihilism: (1) moral nihilism, which is to deny the results of karma; and (2) spiritual nihilism, which is to wait until death to find peace rather practising the Noble Eightfold Path, here & now, to find peace.
All manifestations have the characteristic of emptiness. Buddhism states form, feeling, perception, fabrications & cosnciousness, which are manifestions or conditioned things, are emptiness.
There is no distinction between manifestations and emptiness therefore your question has no basis. It is non-sequitur.
Manifestion occurs because nature is about reproduction. All natural things reproduce. They have sexual intercourse or copulate in order to bring about reproduction of the species.
All things may be emptiness but not all beings have realised this. So to ask why/how illusion arise from emptiness is another non-sequitur because delusion is also emptiness but an emptiness not realised because of delusion.
For example, a mind that can accept all objects are illusion, impermanent, chaotic, etc, in that acceptence, that mind will find perfect order, that is, Nibbana.
Order is a solution. It is certainly not a "problem".
For example, gravity keeps things on the earth, rather than allowing them to float off into space.
Order or homeostatic systems keep the seasons of the earth or the moods of the mind in balance.
For example, our mind cannot be joyful or angry permanently. The forces of "order" force the mind to rest from its moods, otherwise the mind would burn out from exhaustion. It could not sleep, etc.
Order keeps the earth orbiting around the sun.
However, despite this order, what it sustains is only temporary. The mind will one day cease. The earth will one day go crashing into the sun.
There is some order but the things that are keep in some modicum of order inevitably tend towards disorder.
"Order" is an illusion. When the mind realises there is no "order" in which it can rely on and lets go of desiring "order", it will find order, namely, Nibbana.
Order is found by abandonment or relinquishment, including abandoning & relinquishing all questions.
The Buddha said:
"Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought."
"Phenomena are preceded by the mind, ruled by the mind, made of the mind."
In the Bible, there is the phrase:
Does the clay say to the potter,
‘What are you making?’
Does your work say,
‘The potter has no hands’?
Your questioning is similar.
Regards
Look around you. Can you perceive anything that does not follow the principle of cause & effect?
Such as your life. It exists due to causes, such as the food you eat, the water you drink, the air you breathe. No food, no water, no air = no life = no Zen World.
Nothingness or nihilism is not the ultimate truth. For example, now, you type and read on a computer. Obviously, there is not nothing. So how can this be the ultimate truth?
Experience is an illusion because the sense organs are impermanent; perceptions or labels are impermanent.
But this illusion is also cause & effect. Because of impermanence as a cause, there is illusion as an effect.
The mind that penetrates illusion is at peace; is enlightened; is Nibbana.
So to say things are illusion but at the same time be "bothered" is just intellectual talk. One has not really experienced objects as illusion. If one had, they would be giving all the answers rather than asking all of the questions.
nature's primary purpose is all beings & creatures reproduce
everything on the earth, be it vast oceans, huge mountains, beautiful forests, raging rivers, etc, exist for only one purpose
which is to sustain reproduction
reproduction = samsara
First of all zen_world....everything is not illusion. That is, you are assuming that as an mental generalization. All you have to do is stop making sweeping generalizations. And I mean stop it. You seem pron to intellectually making these sweeping generalizations and then try to rectify in your own mind what you have postulated. THAT is a mistake. It is the endless comparison mind of philosophers, not very Buddhist at all.
Then you say form is emptiness, but you don't finish the statement that adds emptiness is form. Form is all around you. Trees people, house furniture, your body, etc....., they just do not have an "eternal" existence. They all pass away and change every moment. There is the magic in having the right view. Being able to appreciate the temporary nature of all things, so your conclusive statement "we reject nihilism" is based on believing your own made up statements, and then you think all people who practice Buddhism rejects nihilism. I know I do. You can not sum up the depth of all practicing Buddhists by a statement like that. In fact it is a double negative. First of all rejection, which assumes a turning away from "form", and then nihilism which is the "belief" that all is void of "EVERYTHING". Maybe your not really alive either.
You never know the answer to a "Why" question. There is always something not quite finished with the answers. You seem to want "closure" on your own monkey mind. That kind of mind jumps from branch to branch unceasingly. As a meditation you should imagine the monkey getting so tired that it finally stops jumping around.
You have fooled yourself with a western definition of emptiness as having "nothing in it". This is a mistake. The translation is not "nothingness". It means empty of "Value", until we humans make meaning of "it". That meaning we make is very important. When you face the fact that everyone makes meaning and value, even though they are just approximations, you will have encountered a mature view. Then you do not believe your in your view, you just have it and others have theirs and there is a dance of views that occurs. When the dance is over you walk away and do not cling to how the dance went, what steps you chose to take, or even "who" you were dancing with.
Just as I am doing with this post. Others will argue the merits of it, others will quote scriptures, others will pick apart certain aspects of it, because they want to dance too. No body is right or wrong, they just want to believe they are . Ha!
Second, I have to say none of the above answers satisfied me. So I will try to ask my question in a different format as best as I can.
I have to organize my thought first and I will reply tonight.
Because I still believe there is something fundamentally missing here.
I don't think the question is irrelevant/flawed at all and neither I made flawed assumptions. The question is legitimate and I will try to explain when I got some free time tonight.
This one is long, complex and obviously complete, because you feel that even after 6 pages, the answers do not satisfy you.
Look forward to the new thread.
Everyone can try again, afresh, and from new, there.
Thanks to all.