Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Sign In Register
Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

emptiness creates illusion?

zen_worldzen_world Veteran
edited May 2011 in Philosophy
Everything is illusion and form is emptiness. Yet we reject nihilism.
If the essence is emptiness, what causes the manifestation? and most importantly why?

Another way of asking this question: Emptiness is emptiness and it should stay as empty then why/how illusion arise from emptiness?

«13456

Comments

  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited May 2011
    Not illusion... delusion. Both ignorance and wisdom are born of emptiness, and so too suffering and peace. What you lack, you seek.
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    Not illusion... delusion. Both ignorance and wisdom are born of emptiness, and so too suffering and peace. What you lack, you seek.
    why ignorance and wisdom are born of emptiness?

  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited May 2011
    Why ask why? Buddhism isn't about whys, it's about whats and hows. It's about how things actually are, and how they actually work, not why they happen to work that way (they just do, that's the nature of everything). Out of form is born mind, out of contact is born pleasurable feeling and craving; out of ignorance of reality (not-knowing) is this craving perpetuated. Out of realizing the true nature of mind and everything is craving released, peace well-established.

    Wisdom is a process, it is unavoidable that we must first be ignorant for ignorance is the not-knowing of a mind that has yet to learn... to experience the truth.

    It just is.
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    Because "why" takes you deeper and deeper. Without "why" there is no philopshy. And Buddhism is philosophy as much as it is religion!

    I ask "why" to go deeper into reality.

    But since you remind me...I also ask
    how ignorance and wisdom are born of emptiness?
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    Buddha noted that we weren't around for the first cause, so to simply let it rest.

    Otherwise, these notions are simply part of the cycle of DO, which is self-sustaining. Knowledge and ignorance are two sides of a coin spinning in emptiness, wisdom just noticing the spin, knowing how to stop it, and with practice, stopping it. In my opinion, that is.

    Also, we are born from a womb, not from emptiness.
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    Buddha noted that we weren't around for the first cause, so to simply let it rest.

    Otherwise, these notions are simply part of the cycle of DO, which is self-sustaining. Knowledge and ignorance are two sides of a coin spinning in emptiness, wisdom just noticing the spin, knowing how to stop it, and with practice, stopping it. In my opinion, that is.

    Also, we are born from a womb, not from emptiness.

    Again,

    Why and How "Knowledge and ignorance are two sides of a coin spinning in emptiness"

  • santhisouksanthisouk Veteran
    edited May 2011
    Since we are an illusion, lets make this a pleasant, happy, and meaningful illusion. Perhaps it is just not our time to break that illusion. Perhaps we'll know when that time is.

  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    Since we are an illusion, lets make this the most pleasant, happy, meaningful illusion ever. Perhaps it is just not our time to break that illusion. Perhaps we'll know when that time is.

    No, thank you:)

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Everything is illusion and form is emptiness. Yet we reject nihilism.
    If the essence is emptiness, what causes the manifestation? and most importantly why?

    Another way of asking this question: Emptiness is emptiness and it should stay as empty then why/how illusion arise from emptiness?

    The world arises due to our karma, we collectively believe it exists due to our ignorance so it does. We can't say there was an original cause or "why" because in Buddhism we say that our ignorance is beginningless.
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran

    The world arises due to our karma, we collectively believe it exists due to our ignorance so it does. We can't say there was an original cause or "why" because in Buddhism we say that our ignorance is beginningless.
    We can't say - meaning we don't know?
    Doesn't that bother you?
  • santhisouksanthisouk Veteran
    Regardless of whether or not we choose to accept that its an illusion, we still need to make it meaningful, and cultivate goodness if we are on that path to break it.
  • DaozenDaozen Veteran
    If the essence is emptiness, what causes the manifestation? and most importantly why?
    Emptiness has no essence, that's the whole point. Form is the manifestation of emptiness. Why: not even Buddha knows; it simply is as such, without beginning or end.



  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    Regardless of whether or not we choose to accept that its an illusion, we still need to make it meaningful, and cultivate goodness if we are on that path to break it.
    Yes, but this doesn't answer my question!
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    We can't say - meaning we don't know?
    Doesn't that bother you?
    Yeah a little but if you study causality the logical conclusion comes to a beginningless universe. Here's an article that goes through the logic of it, its fairly dense if you don't have a background in it though.

    https://bdigital.ufp.pt/dspace/bitstream/10284/782/3/241-246Cons-Ciencias 02-9.pdf
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    Emptiness has no essence, that's the whole point. Form is the manifestation of emptiness. Why: not even Buddha knows; it simply is as such, without beginning or end.
    See I cannot accept that...There must be an answer...

  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited May 2011
    Maybe we don't understand the question. The question as you pose it is like asking "Why doesn't a baby know how to read but an educated adult does?".

    Cause and effect; conditionality. That's the only answer. If something is a certain way, it's because that's how it's been conditioned through cause and effect, the interplay of all phenomena.

    What we can learn is how reality works (cause and effect, conditionality) and its properties (impermanence, not-self/interdependence) and that our not-knowing leads to suffering.

    What exactly are you asking? Most of the most vexing problems we have are not due to having no answers, but having improper questions in the first place (i.e. what happens to the self at death... since the self doesn't exist to begin with and so the question is invalid).
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran

    Yeah a little but if you study causality the logical conclusion comes to a beginningless universe. Here's an article that goes through the logic of it, its fairly dense if you don't have a background in it though.

    https://bdigital.ufp.pt/dspace/bitstream/10284/782/3/241-246Cons-Ciencias 02-9.pdf
    Thank you for the article...I will read it...
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    Cause and effect; conditionality. That's the only answer. If something is a certain way, it's because that's how it's been conditioned through cause and effect, the interplay of all phenomena.

    What we can learn is how reality works (cause and effect, conditionality) and its properties (impermanence, not-self/interdependence) and that our not-knowing leads to suffering. What exactly are you asking?
    I am asking why and how there is "cause" and effect" ? why and how is it the way it is?
    emptiness should stay as empty...no need for cause and effect!
  • DaozenDaozen Veteran
    Emptiness has no essence, that's the whole point. Form is the manifestation of emptiness. Why: not even Buddha knows; it simply is as such, without beginning or end.
    See I cannot accept that...There must be an answer...

    Why must there be an answer? Not all questions have answers.

  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran

    Why must there be an answer? Not all questions have answers.

    1- There should be an snwer because we experience the phenomena
    2- Ask me another question that doesn't have an answer?
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    edited May 2011
    Why is there something instead of nothing? Unless you posit a creator outside of the law of cause and effect that can never the less generate the cause to effect a creation this has remained an unanswerable question. It would be nice to know but it really doesn't have any bearing on removing our suffering and the causes of our suffering. Unfortunately we can't know all things until we're a Buddha.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited May 2011
    @zen_world, What is your definition of emptiness? The Buddha taught that all phenomena are empty of self, and Mahayana's definition is basically the combination of impermanence and not-self. It is exactly cause and effect that is the visible reality of emptiness that we see, as well as the reason that all things are impermanent and not-self... emptiness explains itself. There's really no question here, I think you're thinking about it in some strange way that's all.

    As to why "emptiness" is our reality, this isn't something we have any answers to or even any way to answer. It's an unknowable that's beyond even fully comprehending emptiness I think, and you need to be enlightened to really see emptiness to begin with. So set your sights on becoming awakened and then maybe things will become clear, or the question will be seen as imponderable and be dropped (as all things that cause suffering will be).
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    edited May 2011
    Why is there something instead of nothing? Unless you posit a creator outside of the law of cause and effect that can never the less generate the cause to effect a creation this has remained an unanswerable question. .
    Another creator is one alternative even though it creates another problem, who is the creator and how is the creator created?

    It would be nice to know but it really doesn't have any bearing on removing our suffering and the causes of our suffering. Unfortunately we can't know all things until we're a Buddha.
    Yes it is nice to know, or is it?

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Another creator is one alternative even though it creates another problem, who is the creator and how is the creator created?

    Agreed.

  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    @zen_world, What is your definition of emptiness? The Buddha taught that all phenomena are empty of self, and Mahayana's definition is basically the combination of impermanence and not-self. It is exactly cause and effect that is the visible reality of emptiness that we see, as well as the reason that all things are impermanent and not-self... emptiness explains itself. There's really no question here, I think you're thinking about it in some strange way that's all.

    As to why "emptiness" is our reality, this isn't something we have any answers to or even any way to answer. Some people believe in God to explain reality, but then they'd have no way to know how God came into existence except to explain it away by saying he always was (which doesn't make much sense to a logical mind bent on understanding beginnings).
    There is no difference between the two:
    "God is not created he always was there"
    "Cause and effect was always there because it was always there"

  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited May 2011
    I actually took that part out and put something else, since it's really an imponderable. It's going beyond our abilities to answer such a question I think. Why-ever it's the way it is, we have to accept that it is that way... and see that with the greatest clarity and to the fullest depths that it can be seen, and this means walking the path to its conclusion. The question is no different than why do we die, or why is there life at all... who could ever answer such questions? We can look at them differently though, so that the questions themselves are answers.
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    I actually took that part out and put something else, since it's really an imponderable. It's going beyond our abilities to answer such a question I think. Why-ever it's the way it is, we have to accept that it is that way... and see that with the greatest clarity and to the fullest depths that it can be seen, and this means walking the path to its conclusion.
    Thats fair! Any comments on why it is beyond our abilities?

  • CloudCloud Veteran
    Nah I'll let you work yourself out of this one. You'll figure it out; it'll just give me a headache trying to explain it. I just have to accept that you're looking at it in a completely different way for some reason and that there's obviously a reason why you're stuck on the question. It'll either come to you, or it won't. Good luck!
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    Nah I'll let you work yourself out of this one. You'll figure it out; it'll just give me a headache trying to explain it. I just have to accept that you're looking at it in a completely different way for some reason and that there's obviously a reason why you're stuck on the question. It'll either come to you, or it won't. Good luck!
    You may be right! Thank you

  • DaozenDaozen Veteran
    Why must there be an answer? Not all questions have answers.
    1- There should be an snwer because we experience the phenomena
    Just because we 'experience' something doesn't mean we can explain everything about it.
    2- Ask me another question that doesn't have an answer.
    When will you die?
    I am asking why and how there is "cause" and effect" ? why and how is it the way it is? emptiness should stay as empty...no need for cause and effect!
    We can answer how: because the nature of emptiness is impermanence. Without emptiness, nothing could exist; a seed must grow to become a tree.

    As for "why?". Well, even my toddler knows that, if you ask "why?" enough, eventually the answer must be "nobody knows".

  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    even your illusion is truth. there is no difference. there is only what is.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran

    The world arises due to our karma, we collectively believe it exists due to our ignorance so it does. We can't say there was an original cause or "why" because in Buddhism we say that our ignorance is beginningless.
    We can't say - meaning we don't know?
    Doesn't that bother you?
    No, because getting an answer would not solve the problems of ignorance.

  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    in a way not knowing is accurate because it is not knowing. the mind will never know. it will always come up with concepts which point to the experience, but we ourselves existentially realize truth.

    our whole being realizes such truth and from there we articulate truth, knowing that the words themselves are pointers.
    then we learn the words themselves are as valid as the actual felt sense of emptiness. even any action made is truth. you just come to what is and everything becomes truth. potential > manifestation> expression. blah blah blah.
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    edited May 2011

    Just because we 'experience' something doesn't mean we can explain everything about it.
    Because "you can't explain it" doesn't mean that there is no answer...
    When will you die?
    I do not know...but that doesn't mean that this question has not answer...
    We can answer how: because the nature of emptiness is impermanence. Without emptiness, nothing could exist; a seed must grow to become a tree.
    This is not the answer to my question. Let me repeat the question again.
    Emptiness is empty then how cause and effect is created from emptiness?
    As for "why?". Well, even my toddler knows that, if you ask "why?" enough, eventually the answer must be "nobody knows".

    why nobody knows? i.e. beyond our capacity? or there is no answer so we do not know?
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    your thinking mind will try and try and try and try and try and try and try and try and try for an infinite amount of years.
    it is a mystery. all of this. just accept it and let it be. there is nothing to figure out. just find your true nature. let your mind rest.

    the mind can only know the finite.
    the heart already is the infinite and all is known already. open your heart and just be.
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    in a way not knowing is accurate because it is not knowing. the mind will never know. it will always come up with concepts which point to the experience, but we ourselves existentially realize truth.

    our whole being realizes such truth and from there we articulate truth, knowing that the words themselves are pointers.
    then we learn the words themselves are as valid as the actual felt sense of emptiness. even any action made is truth. you just come to what is and everything becomes truth. potential > manifestation> expression. blah blah blah.
    Can you please explain what you mean by "potential"?
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    when you take a shit. you have the potential to shit anywhere you want. then you decide to take a shit in a toilet. out of the infinite amount of places you can take a shit you choose that which is most logical and convenient to you. thus that is your expression.

    you yourself are infinite potential. meaning you are unconditioned right now. but you automatically choose a finite expression because you are bounded by your thinking mind AKA your conditioning. cut all thinking then you cut all conditioning. then you can shit anywhere. or from that vantage point you can take a shit in the toilet because from that vantage point of no vantage points you are free to do whatever the hell you want.

    hahahha.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited May 2011
    @taiyaki, That made me laugh, literally. It's not correct, but it's funny. ;)
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Bertrand Russell wrote, "There is no reason to suppose that the world had a beginning at all. The idea that things must have a beginning is due to the poverty of our imagination." Its hard to imagine beginninglessness just as we have a hard time conceiving of infinity, but in Buddhist logic all phenomena must have a cause so logically you can't find a first causeless cause.
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    from that logic can't you just assert that there is no cause/effect. these are merely projections from our limited, finite understandings.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    emptiness creates nothing

    emptiness does not create

  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    nothing is still something bro.
  • santhisouksanthisouk Veteran
    In times of extreme suffering, I'm really glad its actually empty.

    with metta
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    when you take a shit. you have the potential to shit anywhere you want. then you decide to take a shit in a toilet. out of the infinite amount of places you can take a shit you choose that which is most logical and convenient to you. thus that is your expression.

    you yourself are infinite potential. meaning you are unconditioned right now. but you automatically choose a finite expression because you are bounded by your thinking mind AKA your conditioning. cut all thinking then you cut all conditioning. then you can shit anywhere. or from that vantage point you can take a shit in the toilet because from that vantage point of no vantage points you are free to do whatever the hell you want.

    hahahha.
    you almost got me there for a second:)
    Why do I choose to shit any specific place amng infinite places at the first place? That requires "I" - personalized action by "choosing" a specific place at the begining. So how this "I" or "perosnal choice" become from emptiness?

  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited May 2011
    nothing is still something bro.
    i said emptiness does not create anything
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    Bertrand Russell wrote, "There is no reason to suppose that the world had a beginning at all. The idea that things must have a beginning is due to the poverty of our imagination." Its hard to imagine beginninglessness just as we have a hard time conceiving of infinity, but in Buddhist logic all phenomena must have a cause so logically you can't find a first causeless cause.
    He might be right! But I have hope that one day I will find the answer:)
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    from that logic can't you just assert that there is no cause/effect. these are merely projections from our limited, finite understandings.
    If you're referring to my last post, ultimately its all empty and illusory. But to say there is NO cause and effect just doesn't hold up conventionally.

  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    when you take a shit. you have the potential to shit anywhere you want. then you decide to take a shit in a toilet. out of the infinite amount of places you can take a shit you choose that which is most logical and convenient to you. thus that is your expression.

    you yourself are infinite potential. meaning you are unconditioned right now. but you automatically choose a finite expression because you are bounded by your thinking mind AKA your conditioning. cut all thinking then you cut all conditioning. then you can shit anywhere. or from that vantage point you can take a shit in the toilet because from that vantage point of no vantage points you are free to do whatever the hell you want.

    hahahha.
    you almost got me there for a second:)
    Why do I choose to shit any specific place amng infinite places at the first place? That requires "I" - personalized action by "choosing" a specific place at the begining. So how this "I" or "perosnal choice" become from emptiness?

    attachment to thinking. that is all.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited May 2011
    So how this "I" or "perosnal choice" become from emptiness?
    this "I" or "perosnal choice" becomes from IGNORANCE

    man...your understanding is all mixed up

  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    emptiness creates nothing

    emptiness does not create

    so why there is delusion/illusion? where does it come from?
This discussion has been closed.